Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
People are just starting to understand how far gone the Israel project is, and how dark its nature really is.
Ben Gvir, high-ranking Israeli cabinet member mentioned above, celebrated along with hundreds of other zionist zealots the burning to death of a Palestinian baby in a zionist settler arson attack on his family's home,
They celebrated that crime in a ceremony where people brought a big picture of that baby, stabbed his picture and burned it, as if to recreate and commemorate the actual deed that incinerated the Palestinian baby and his family.
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On 31 July 2015, Israeli settlers firebombed a Palestinian family home in late July 2015 in the village of Duma, killing three people; 18-month-old Ali Dawabsheh was burned alive in the fire, while both his parents died from their injuries within weeks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack#Taunting_of_murder_victims,_relatives
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"Wedding of Hate"
...video of a Jewish wedding in Jerusalem celebrating the marriage of a person known to have been involved in price tag attacks, in which guests are shown stabbing a photo of the toddler, Ali Dawabsheh, who had died in the Duma arson attack.
The same video contained scenes of guests, armed with guns, knives and Molotov cocktails, chanting a song with the words from the book of Judges (16:28), "O God, that I may be this once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes", replacing "Philistines" with "Palestinians". A lawyer for the defendants in the case, Attorney Itamar Ben-Gvir, was also present .... Such scenes are reported to be typical of many such weddings.
I have no idea if this is true. Let's assume that you are presenting this in an accurate and unbiased way (which, based on your history seems very unlikely).
Gvir is an outlier in Israeli society. Views like those you attribute to him are a tiny minority. Very few Israelis feel that way and, in fact, there is a large left minority that opposes the current government and has a long history of seeking peace. And in fact, Israel has made peace with its neighbors when there has been a willing partner, including ceding land it controls - that is a fact.
Let's now contrast that with Palestinian society. Recent polling suggests that 70% (or likely higher) of Palestinians support the 10/7 atrocities. In Gaza, there is literally no faction openly advocating for peace with Israel (i.e., a two state solution). The same could be said for the West Bank, Anyone advocating for peace would likely be harmed, if not killed.
Palestinians teach their children to hate all jews (not just Israelis). They teach their children that terrorism and violence is justified. They elected Hamas and also a deeply corrupt PA. Hamas and other groups openly value martyrdom over life. They want to impose sharia and have no respect for minority rights, including LGBTQ rights.
There is a society that has a dark nature, as you put it. It isn't democratic and modern Israel, imperfect though it may be. The Palestinians (and those who make excuses for them) are their own worst enemy
The great majority of "democratic and modern Israel' supports the ongoing genocide in Gaza. In fact, a majority of Israelis thinks the response is not harsh enough and that there should be more killing of Gazans. That is the reality here, but I doubt you can accept it, because in your world view and value system, the life of a Palestinian child, let alone 15,000, clearly doesn't matter.
You are perpetrating several lies about Israel including:
-that Israel wants peace, or a 2-state solution. The only Israeli leader who honestly sought that was Itzak Rabin.
-that the Palestinians are driven by a western concept of antisemitism. The only Jews Palestinians see in Gaza and the West Bank are fanatic settlers and Israeli soldiers demolishing their homes, taking their land and brutalizing them on a daily basis for decades now.
Gazans tried peaceful protests a few years ago, and more than 7,000 of them were shot with live ammunition as a result, thousands maimed for life by Israeli snipers shooting at kneecaps, groins or limbs.
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I have no idea if this is true. Let's assume that you are presenting this in an accurate and unbiased way (which, based on your history seems very unlikely).
All the info I have posted is accurate, and you know it, that's why you are using ad hominem instead of debating any fact I have presented.
Factually, there is not a genocide in Israel. So the info you posted is objectively inaccurate. Repeating the "genocide" trope does not make it true. If Israel wanted to, it could in fact eliminate all Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank. Yet there they are, having grown their population over many decades.
Israel has used this opportunity to ethnically cleanse Gaza, using mass bombing of homes, hospitals, schools, mosques and churches, infrastructure etc in a wanton mass massacre of civilians. A combination of brutal savagery which certainly qualifies as a genocide.
Mearsheimer on the ongoing Israeli genocide in Gaza:
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A strong majority of Israelis do support the current war in Gaza to eliminate Hamas and hopefully recover hostages. It is a war. Civilians die, particularly when Hamas wants them to. Hamas started the war - there was a cease fire in place on 10/6. Those are facts. Everything that has happened since 10/7 was caused by Hamas. And they could end it now by surrendering. Yet they don't - instead hiding behind human shields - thereby inflicting more pain on the Palestinian population.
No, the strong majority of Israelis is calling for more bombing, saying that the ongoing massacre is not violent enough. Israel is not after Hamas, they are out to wipe out Gaza completely:
Israel has already bombed to death dozens of its own hostages, and their army has killed hundreds of Israelis on 10/7 and its aftermath, applying the Hannibal Directive. In fact they might have killed nearly as many Israeli civilians as Hamas did.
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And, in typical fashion, you have mischaracterized the events of the 2018. The protests were not all "peaceful". Unless you consider setting a bomb on the border that killed 4 soldiers peaceful. There were several other bombs set, illegal infiltrations, and incendiary balloons sent over the boarder. The people shot by Israeli soldiers entered a no go zone. As always, you deny the Palestinian's agency, as if they are responsible for the known/predictable consequences of their own actions and decisions.
The 7,000+ protestors that Israeli snipers shot with live munition during the March of Return in 2018 were unarmed. Women, children, medical staff, journalists were targeted. You're saying that the actions of one Israeli sniper who shot out 42 kneecaps in 1 day is justified because the Palestinians flew a few balloons over the border?
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And for the record, nothing in my prior post was ad hominem. You should get a dictionary (and to be clear, that is ad hominem).
Ad hominem right here:
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I have no idea if this is true. Let's assume that you are presenting this in an accurate and unbiased way (which, based on your history seems very unlikely).
I'll once again suggest you grab a dictionary. This time look up ethnic cleansing. Palestinians are being killed - though not as many as you and other Hamasholes have claimed. They are not being replaced with a different ethnic group. That is not cleansing. Gaza has over 2M people. Killing less than 2% of the people (at least half of which are combatants) is not cleansing or genocide. The civilian to combatant ratio is historically low for urban warfare. The opposite of ethnic cleansing.
While were on the topic, do you agree that Assad has engaged in ethnic cleansing? What about putin? What about Egypt (coptics)?
Were the Hamas 10/7 attacks ethnic cleansing? If not, why? It sure seems that consistent with the Hamas original charter, they were attacking Jews to remove all jews from the river to the sea. Seems pretty "cleansy" to me.
MacGregor is an abject fool. If the mission was only bombing, why are there Israeli troops on the ground? The answer is because bombing cannot accomplish the actual mission - which is the removal of Hamas, dismantling its terror infrastructure (tunnels, weapons, etc.), and hopefully rescuing hostages (or recovering their bodies). MacGregor and you somehow overlook this.
MacGregor's suggestion - in the very tweet you posted - was that Israel should have instead flooded the tunnels with salt water. Are you in favor of that? Are you aware the Israel did do that on a limited basis but didn't pursue the tactic more aggressively because: (i) it wanted to rescue hostages; (ii) the US and other countries pressured it not to; and (iii) there was a concern that doing on a widespread basis so would create an environmental and civilian disaster (all of Gaza's water table and infrastructure could have been destroyed). This is what MacGregor is suggesting was a better approach.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/israel-flooding-hamas-tunnels-seawater-risks-ruining-basic-life-gaza-expertSo, once again, do you adopt your hero MacGregor's position - should Israel have flooded the tunnels rather than dropping bombs?
And, once again, you can't be trusted to post accurate information. The purported quote of Hagari is inaccurate. There was an original mistranslation - but you didn't even quote that correctly. Then the guardian corrected itself. Maybe read and then post the actual quote?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza. In terms of the so called "March of Return", you simply can't be trusted to present accurate information.
- Objectively, it wasn't just flying "a few balloons over the border."
- Not all of the "protestors" were unarmed.
- It is objectively true that some of the "protestors" engaged in violence and attacks on Israel.
- The vast majority of the Palestinians that were shot entered the border "no go" zone. They knew it was a no go zone. And then entered after there had been bombings, infiltrations, and other attempts to illegally cross the border. What did they think would happen?
- Of the 127 or so Palestinians killed, 102 were confirmed as militants.
This is all in Wikipedia - the same link I posted previously. Here it is again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests#Palestinian_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests#Prevalence_of_militants_among_the_killedOnce again, you deny the Palestinians all agency. To you, they somehow have no responsibility for advancing in waves on the Israeli boarder with bombs, weapons, Molotov cocktails, incendiary devices, etc. OF COURSE Israel felt threatened by this, as would pretty much any country. So to answer your question, yes what Israel did was, on the whole, justified. They had no idea if the people advancing on the border were armed or what their intentions were.
And, again, no Palestinians would have been shot if the demonstrations were away from the border and no bombings/weapons/etc. were targeted at Israel.
And, ironically, the events of 10/7 prove that Israel was 100% correct in taking seriously the threat of a mass boarder infiltration and in shooting the waves of Palestinians approaching the border. And when this war eventually ends, the no go zone is going to be much larger.
