The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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Cal88
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In reply to bearister • 12:23p, 10/4/24
bearister said:
…..and a lot of people have been saying' that all Bibi has to promise is development rights for some beachfront properties in Gaza and Beirut:

Democrats suspect Netanyahu attempting to tilt election toward Trump


https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4914933-netanyahu-gaza-hezbollah-interference/

The main financial incentives for Trump here come from donors like the Adelsons, who have/are donating to his campaign nearly a quarter billion dollars in exchange for the US backing the annexation of occupied Palestinian (and soon) Lebanese land.

Other bigwigs like Rupert Murdoch are also invested in the Israel expansion project, he is part owner of Genie Energy, which is set to exploit oil reserves in the Golan Heights....which Trump allowed Israel to annex.

https://www.idt.net/business-and-financial-leaders-lord-rothschild-and-rupert-murdoch-invest-in-genie-oil-gas/

There is an even bigger play with large gas reserves off Gaza which the Israelis are planning on taking over, with side deals similar to the one above. These reserves are set to replace Russian gas for Europe, through pipelines to Turkey or Greece.

It's kind of an astonishing quid pro quo and hijack of US foreign policy, but digging deeper, it started all the way back with Truman getting Israel lobby support i9n exchange for an aggressive UN partition plan in 1948.
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12:47p, 10/4/24
UN peacekeepers in Lebanon have done a good job, their presence is now threatened by the Israeli bombing campaign and impending invasion.



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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:48p, 10/4/24
Yet there was arguably never a time of greater peace in the region than when Trump was president (while Israel existed). And we realized truly historic normalization of relations between Israel and numerous Muslim states, something that was inconceivable.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:54p, 10/4/24
Cal88 said:
UN peacekeepers in Lebanon have done a good job, their presence is now threatened by the Israeli bombing campaign and impending invasion.
By what measure? I suspect UN Peacekeepers are in southern Lebanon to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, in which case they are and have been an abject failure:

From Wiki
"(UNSCR 1701) calls for * * * the disarmament of armed groups including Hezbollah, with no armed forces other than UNIFIL and Lebanese military south of the Litani River...."

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Cal88
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 12:59p, 10/4/24
tequila4kapp said:
Yet there was arguably never a time of greater peace in the region than when Trump was president (while Israel existed). And we realized truly historic normalization of relations between Israel and numerous Muslim states, something that was inconceivable.

You can't normalize your relations with your neighbors by ethnically cleansing and annexing their lands, which Trump has enabled through the annexation of the Golan Heights following the first $100M installment from Sheldon Adelson, and soon, he will officialized the land grab of most of the West Bank by Israel following the current $100M payment from the Adelson widow.

Jordan's foreign minister has addressed in 2 minutes your claim about the real obstacle for peace and a 2 state solution in the region:
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:22p, 10/4/24
Cal88 said:
tequila4kapp said:
Yet there was arguably never a time of greater peace in the region than when Trump was president (while Israel existed). And we realized truly historic normalization of relations between Israel and numerous Muslim states, something that was inconceivable.

You can't normalize your relations with your neighbors by ethnically cleansing and annexing their lands, which Trump has enabled through the annexation of the Golan Heights following the first $100M installment from Sheldon Adelson, and soon, he will officialized the land grab of most of the West Bank by Israel following the current $100M payment from the Adelson widow.

Jordan's foreign minister has addressed in 2 minutes your claim about the real obstacle for peace and a 2 state solution in the region:
Maybe it is true that Bibi doesn't want a 2 state solution. If so, that is wrong. That said, arguing about what Bibi wants or doesn't want is pissing in the wind until some Palestinian entity in Gaza recognizes their right to exist because that deficit (not accepting their right to exist) is inherently incompatible with a 2 state solution. One is a precondition to the other.

The statement by this gentleman is patently false on its face. "All Muslim nations" (or whatever he exactly said) do not accept Israel's right to exist or a 2 State solution. That is laughably wrong / untrue. See Iran, Hamas and Yemen, just to name 3. Further, those states which do recognize Israel's right to exist and which do want a 2 State solution cannot control Iran, which further destroys this guy's credibility because short of controlling Iran nobody can guarantee Israel anything.
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bearister
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7:24p, 10/4/24
Trump made at least $9.6 million from the Middle East while president - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington


https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-investigations/trump-made-9-6-million-middle-east-income-while-president/
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2:57p, 10/5/24
Gaza war defines a generation's perspective on Israeli-Palestinian conflict


https://www.axios.com/2024/10/05/gen-z-israel-pro-palestinian-protests
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12:04p, 10/6/24
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu is on a political and strategic winning streak


https://www.axios.com/2024/10/06/netanyahu-israel-political-strategy
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bearister
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3:58p, 10/6/24
To go along with his fake height, fake teeth, fake hair, suit shoulder pads, and fake tan, in most of his post assassination fist raised photos, the size of his fist has been enlarged by photoshopping. A few photos made their way into circulation prior to touch up:

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Cal88
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In reply to bearister • 5:28a, 10/7/24
bearister said:
To go along with his fake height, fake teeth, fake hair, suit shoulder pads, and fake tan, in most of his post assassination fist raised photos, the size of his fist has been enlarged by photoshopping. A few photos made their way into circulation prior to touch up:


How is that even remotely relevant to this thread?!? Trump isn't running US mideast policy.
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Zippergate
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In reply to Cal88 • 11:22a, 10/7/24
How is that even remotely relevant to this thread?!? Trump isn't running US mideast policy.

Without projection, TDSers wouldn't know what to accuse Trump of.

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bearister
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11:39a, 10/7/24
How Oct. 7 changed everything


https://www.axios.com/2024/10/07/october-7-anniversary-israel-hamas-gaza-war
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bearister
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In reply to Cal88 • 11:43a, 10/7/24
Cal88 said:
bearister said:
To go along with his fake height, fake teeth, fake hair, suit shoulder pads, and fake tan, in most of his post assassination fist raised photos, the size of his fist has been enlarged by photoshopping. A few photos made their way into circulation prior to touch up:


How is that even remotely relevant to this thread?!? Trump isn't running US mideast policy.


Like tRump, I prefer the totally rando thinking style where relevance is irrelevant. My thought process is like a Trane sax solo, I may occasionally know where it starts but have I have no idea where it is going to end up.



* As a relevant aside, it appears that I must have had multiple BI tabs opened and posted that comment in this thread by mistake. I think an Assassination Fist Pump photo in the intended thread triggered my comment.
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Zippergate
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In reply to bearister • 11:54a, 10/7/24
Like tRump, I prefer the totally rando thinking style where relevance is irrelevant. My thought process is like a Trane sax solo, I may occasionally know where it starts but have I have no idea where it is going to end up.

You may have no idea but we do: TDS.
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8:45p, 10/7/24
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11:19p, 10/7/24
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11:33p, 10/7/24


Michael Knowles at Berkeley.

The motivation behind the October 7 attacks was not about territory, it was an attack motivated by religion, just as the centuries of conflicts before then. Hamas named the Oct. 7 attack after a mosque. But westerners don't take the religious motive behind the attack seriously, because they no longer take religion seriously. If they did, they would recognize that Oct 7 was another attack in a long history of religious wars.
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9:14a, 10/8/24




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Zippergate
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1:14p, 10/8/24
Shed a tear for the fine folks who indiscriminately launch rockets into Israel.

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Cal88
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In reply to Zippergate • 1:21p, 10/8/24
Zippergate said:
Shed a tear for the fine folks who indiscriminately launch rockets into Israel.


And no tears for the Israeli who "discriminately" launched the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs into a dense urban enclave the size of Manhattan killing well over 50,000 civilians.
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Zippergate
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:54p, 10/8/24
You have a point if the only consideration is the scale of the civilian casualties. But what is the combatant to civilian casualty ratio in both cases? Also, your comment presumes that launching rockets at civilians and rooting out terrorists are morally equivalent. And are we to ignore that Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza? Gaza was being mobilized for a singular purpose, the destruction of Israel. Do the Gazans not bear any responsibility for allowing this to happen? I appreciate your commentary on this board as it provides balance to the discussion and I don't intend to come off as callous. But imo there are levels of evil here and Iran, Hezb. and Hamas are alone at the top of that list.
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In reply to Cal88 • 3:20p, 10/8/24
Principles of the Just War

1. A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.

2. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.

3. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see the next point). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.

4. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.

5.The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.

6. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.

7.The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.

-Vincent Ferraro, Ruth C. Lawson Professor of International Politics, Mount Holyoke College <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/justwar.htm>
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In reply to Cal88 • 3:37p, 10/8/24
Cal88 said:
Zippergate said:
Shed a tear for the fine folks who indiscriminately launch rockets into Israel.


And no tears for the Israeli who "discriminately" launched the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs into a dense urban enclave the size of Manhattan killing well over 50,000 civilians.
Don't pretend like the exchange ratio should be 1:1. One group is civilized and intelligent. One group is basically sub-human.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to bearister • 4:14p, 10/8/24
bearister said:
Principles of the Just War

1. A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.

2. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.

3. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see the next point). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.

4. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.

5.The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.

6. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.

7.The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.

-Vincent Ferraro, Ruth C. Lawson Professor of International Politics, Mount Holyoke College <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/justwar.htm>
What a load of crap from some egg-head sitting in a comfortable office with coeds fawning over their fancy thoughts.

By these Standards the US fought an unjust war in WW2.

The objective of war is to win. The duty of a government is to protect its citizens. Proactive engagement with an enemy who represents an imminent or existential threat is always just.

Proportionality is ridiculous, as it merely prolongs combat and results in additional deaths. Win fast and decisively when fighting bad people. Preventing your side from enduring unnecessary deaths is the pinnacle of "just".

Israel has enemies whose very purpose is explicitly to kill all Jews and eliminate the state of Israel. They have to suffer offenses before they can defend themselves? Absurd!

We might still be fighting WW2 (hyperbole) but for Dresden and Hiroshima. The standard stated above promotes, encourages and rewards enemies for putting their war apparatus amongst civilians. Those deaths are the responsibility of the governing body those civilians elected, not the enemy fighting them. .
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bearister
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 4:28p, 10/8/24
Just war theory - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Dresden and Hiroshima have been subject of great debate. The argument for Hiroshima was Japan's stated intention to never surrender and defend the Homeland cave by cave until the last man standing. American casualties projected by some at 1M for conventional invasion of Japan, including destruction of entire U.S. Navy by kamikazes.

Nagasaki is a tough sell for me. I would have to read more about Dresden.

I think Israel's biggest vulnerability is under Proportionality of Response.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to bearister • 4:41p, 10/8/24
bearister said:
Just war theory - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Dresden and Hiroshima have been subject of great debate. The argument for Hiroshima was Japan's stated intention to never surrender and defend the Homeland cave by cave until the last man standing. American casualties projected by some at 1M for conventional invasion of Japan, including destruction of entire U.S. Navy by kamikazes.

Nagasaki is a tough sell for me. I would have to read more about Dresden.

I think Israel biggest vulnerability is under Proportionality of Response.

Nagasaki was a secondary target. It was bombed only because of bad weather over the primary target (Kokura). Nagasaki had legitimate military importance.

Japan didn't surrender (8/15/45) after Hiroshima (8/6/45), only after Russia invaded Manchuria (8/8/45) and Nagasaki was bombed (8/9/45). Historians debate which of the latter 2 events pushed Japan to the decision.

Dresden is a case study for that professor's list. Dresden also gave us Kurt Vannaugut's surprise survival as a POW, and his subsequent novel "Slaughterhouse 5"…perhaps my favorite book
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bearister
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 5:45p, 10/8/24
My Dad was a line officer on a destroyer in the Pacific Theater during WWII. He told me his ship got its orders for the invasion of Japan and that the wing of the invasion he was going to be involved in was called Operation Olympic. He was advised not to worry a whole bunch about making it home alive because the kamikazes were going to sink pretty much every ship. He was 23 and had just married my Mom the year before.
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In reply to Chapman_is_Gone • 11:14p, 10/8/24
Chapman_is_Gone said:
Cal88 said:
Zippergate said:
Shed a tear for the fine folks who indiscriminately launch rockets into Israel.


And no tears for the Israeli who "discriminately" launched the equivalent of 4 Hiroshima bombs into a dense urban enclave the size of Manhattan killing well over 50,000 civilians.
Don't pretend like the exchange ratio should be 1:1. One group is civilized and intelligent. One group is basically sub-human.

Mr. Gone, I humbly request a favor. With regards to this post and your "artistic" one upthread, I've long thought that, were I to have a fatwa issued on me, it would help me to live each day with a new appreciation and to constantly live in a state of "going for the gusto" (for lack of a better phrase). Thus, maybe worth it.

Please report back on how this affecting your life. Also, don't forget to duck.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to bearister • 12:31a, 10/9/24
bearister said:
Just war theory - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Dresden and Hiroshima have been subject of great debate. The argument for Hiroshima was Japan's stated intention to never surrender and defend the Homeland cave by cave until the last man standing. American casualties projected by some at 1M for conventional invasion of Japan, including destruction of entire U.S. Navy by kamikazes.

Nagasaki is a tough sell for me. I would have to read more about Dresden.

I think Israel's biggest vulnerability is under Proportionality of Response.

People often mistake what proportionality means in this context. Many people use that word and then point to the number of causalities as if that is the entire analysis, while it is largely irrelevant.

Israel's war in Gaza has an unquestionably legitimate military purpose - the defeat (or substantial disarming) of Hamas in order to protect further attacks. Israel was attacked first.

Israel has pursued the only possible strategy of fighting Hamas where they are - which is hidden by human shields. Israel does not need to abandon its war objectives simply because Hamas (and Hezbollah) engage in tactics designed to maximize civilian casualties.

Proportionality simply requires Israel to weigh the anticipated civilian casualties against the anticipated military/war benefit of the action. If the military benefit is great - such as taking out the entire high command of Hezbollah - then Israel the civilian casualties are less of an issue. And, to emphasize, civilian casualties are unavoidable when Hamas hides as it does.

Tragically, mistakes will be made. Israel has in some cases mistaken innocents for Hamas and/or been wrong in weighing the likely military benefits/civilian casualties. The same has happened when the USA and other countries engage in war - such as the US bombing Afghan civilians that were mistaken for Taliban.

International law on proportionality does not require Israel or any other country to be right. It requires the country to make a good faith analysis and attempt to weigh the costs/benefits.

Israel is not perfect. But on the whole it has done more to avoid civilian casualties than any other army and has institutionalized policies designed to adhere to proportionality principals. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas do not yet no one seems interested in that.

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In reply to tequila4kapp • 6:33p, 10/9/24
I just happened to watch last night on Amazon Prime a Chinese-made movie called In Harms' Way, a story about an American pilot in the Doolittle raid who was protected by the Chinese from the Japanese army. Very moving film. At the end, they flashed a gut-wrenching paragraph on the screen about the aftermath of the raid. It was similar to the wikipedia summary below. There really is nothing new under the sun and no end to the cruelty and evil of mankind.

"On April 18, 1942, the United States launched the Doolittle Raid, an attack by 16 B-25 Mitchell bombers from the aircraft carrier USS Hornet on Tokyo, Nagoya, and Yokohama. The original plan was for the aircraft to bomb Japan and land at airfields in unoccupied portion of China. Because the raid had to be launched earlier than planned, all but one of the aircraft (which against orders diverted to the Soviet Union) ran out of fuel and crashed in the Chinese provinces of Zhejiang and Jiangxi or their offshore islands.

Sixty-four American airmen parachuted into the area around Zhejiang. Most were given shelter by Chinese civilians but eight Americans were captured by Japanese troops; three were shot after a show trial for "crimes against humanity".
...
Japanese troops conducted a massive search for American airmen and in the process whole towns and villages that were suspected of harboring the Americans were burned to the ground and many civilians executed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_campaign#cite_note-scott_sm_2015-5][5][/url] The Japanese also wanted to occupy the area to prevent American air force from ever using airfields in China that could put the Japanese mainland within reach.
...
When Japanese troops moved out of the Zhejiang and Jiangxi areas in mid-August, they left behind a trail of devastation. The Japanese executed 250,000 civilians for helping the American fliers escape.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_campaign#cite_note-haymond_hn_2023-2][2][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_campaign#cite_note-scott_sm_2015-5][5][/url] The Imperial Japanese Army had also spread cholera, typhoid, plague-infected fleas and dysentery pathogens.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_campaign#cite_note-6][6][/url] The Japanese biological warfare Unit 731 brought almost 300 pounds of paratyphoid and anthrax to be left in contaminated food and contaminated wells with the withdrawal of the army from areas around Yushan, Kinhwa and Futsin."
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8:03p, 10/11/24
Japanese war crimes - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
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In reply to BearGoggles • 11:11p, 10/11/24
BearGoggles said:
bearister said:
Just war theory - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Dresden and Hiroshima have been subject of great debate. The argument for Hiroshima was Japan's stated intention to never surrender and defend the Homeland cave by cave until the last man standing. American casualties projected by some at 1M for conventional invasion of Japan, including destruction of entire U.S. Navy by kamikazes.

Nagasaki is a tough sell for me. I would have to read more about Dresden.

I think Israel's biggest vulnerability is under Proportionality of Response.

People often mistake what proportionality means in this context. Many people use that word and then point to the number of causalities as if that is the entire analysis, while it is largely irrelevant.

Israel's war in Gaza has an unquestionably legitimate military purpose - the defeat (or substantial disarming) of Hamas in order to protect further attacks. Israel was attacked first.

Israel has pursued the only possible strategy of fighting Hamas where they are - which is hidden by human shields. Israel does not need to abandon its war objectives simply because Hamas (and Hezbollah) engage in tactics designed to maximize civilian casualties.

Proportionality simply requires Israel to weigh the anticipated civilian casualties against the anticipated military/war benefit of the action. If the military benefit is great - such as taking out the entire high command of Hezbollah - then Israel the civilian casualties are less of an issue. And, to emphasize, civilian casualties are unavoidable when Hamas hides as it does.

Tragically, mistakes will be made. Israel has in some cases mistaken innocents for Hamas and/or been wrong in weighing the likely military benefits/civilian casualties. The same has happened when the USA and other countries engage in war - such as the US bombing Afghan civilians that were mistaken for Taliban.

International law on proportionality does not require Israel or any other country to be right. It requires the country to make a good faith analysis and attempt to weigh the costs/benefits.

Israel is not perfect. But on the whole it has done more to avoid civilian casualties than any other army and has institutionalized policies designed to adhere to proportionality principals. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas do not yet no one seems interested in that.


For the record, I am pro-Israel.

That said, where is this tragically-mistakes-will-be-made policy getting them? Israel is surrounded by potential enemies (some of them current enemies, others less so). If the "less so" enemies become actual enemies (talkin' about countries like Egypt), the only thing standing between Israel and annihilation will be the US.

Israel's response to the horrible attacks of 10/7 should have been far more surgical and more, yes, proportional. Not only are innocent and semi-innocent civilians getting slaughtered, it would have helped Israel itself, in the long run.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Big C • 2:07a, 10/12/24
Big C said:
BearGoggles said:
bearister said:
Just war theory - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Dresden and Hiroshima have been subject of great debate. The argument for Hiroshima was Japan's stated intention to never surrender and defend the Homeland cave by cave until the last man standing. American casualties projected by some at 1M for conventional invasion of Japan, including destruction of entire U.S. Navy by kamikazes.

Nagasaki is a tough sell for me. I would have to read more about Dresden.

I think Israel's biggest vulnerability is under Proportionality of Response.

People often mistake what proportionality means in this context. Many people use that word and then point to the number of causalities as if that is the entire analysis, while it is largely irrelevant.

Israel's war in Gaza has an unquestionably legitimate military purpose - the defeat (or substantial disarming) of Hamas in order to protect further attacks. Israel was attacked first.

Israel has pursued the only possible strategy of fighting Hamas where they are - which is hidden by human shields. Israel does not need to abandon its war objectives simply because Hamas (and Hezbollah) engage in tactics designed to maximize civilian casualties.

Proportionality simply requires Israel to weigh the anticipated civilian casualties against the anticipated military/war benefit of the action. If the military benefit is great - such as taking out the entire high command of Hezbollah - then Israel the civilian casualties are less of an issue. And, to emphasize, civilian casualties are unavoidable when Hamas hides as it does.

Tragically, mistakes will be made. Israel has in some cases mistaken innocents for Hamas and/or been wrong in weighing the likely military benefits/civilian casualties. The same has happened when the USA and other countries engage in war - such as the US bombing Afghan civilians that were mistaken for Taliban.

International law on proportionality does not require Israel or any other country to be right. It requires the country to make a good faith analysis and attempt to weigh the costs/benefits.

Israel is not perfect. But on the whole it has done more to avoid civilian casualties than any other army and has institutionalized policies designed to adhere to proportionality principals. Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas do not yet no one seems interested in that.


For the record, I am pro-Israel.

That said, where is this tragically-mistakes-will-be-made policy getting them? Israel is surrounded by potential enemies (some of them current enemies, others less so). If the "less so" enemies become actual enemies (talkin' about countries like Egypt), the only thing standing between Israel and annihilation will be the US.

Israel's response to the horrible attacks of 10/7 should have been far more surgical and more, yes, proportional. Not only are innocent and semi-innocent civilians getting slaughtered, it would have helped Israel itself, in the long run.
Thank you for making my point as to how people misuse the word "proportional." You are misusing that word - seemingly intentionally - to bolster your subjective policy preferences.

What is your argument and evidence for asserting that Israel's response was not proportional in the legal/military context? I suspect you have none - it is just empty rhetoric to use that hot button word.

And for the record, while I disagree with you, I have no problem with the remainder of your post. It is 100% legitimate to question the wisdom of Israeli policies and the long term implications of its actions. You could be right on the merits. But there is no need to slur the country by alleging it is engaging in war crimes (which is what proportionality speaks to). That is bad faith, particularly if you're not explaining the basis for that claim.

More substantively, there is zero indication that Egypt or any other Middle East country currently friendly to Israel is becoming Israel's enemy due to the Gaza/Lebanon wars. In fact, the opposite is true. Virtually all of the other middle eastern countries (with the exception of Iraq, Iran, Yemen, and possibly Qatar) are THRILLED to see Iran and its Shia proxies weakened, if not defeated. The Abraham accords exist precisely because of that dynamic. The Shia/Sunni dynamic permeates all of this and far outweighs the Israel/Palestinian issues.

If anything, Israel's display of absolute military and intelligence power/dominance is, in the long run, probably reinforcing ties with the Sunni countries.

In terms of what is good for Israel in the long run, I guess I'll defer to the Israelis to decide that. Within the Israeli coalition government, there is nearly universal support for the current wars, albeit some disagreement over hostage policy. There is a lot of risk - particularly if Israel over reaches on the ground in Lebanon. But the Israelis are picking from a lot of "not good" options - there is no obvious or easy solution.








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tequila4kapp
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In reply to BearGoggles • 6:56a, 10/12/24
Good post.
The neighboring countries largely care about the Palestinian people but not Hamas / PA / PLO. Those entities have existed in numerous of the countries and been removed. Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria (I think), Kuwait, etc. The populations of the neighboring countries are very sympathetic to the Palestinians and hate Jews/Israel; their governments have the Iran and Shiite/Sunni concerns. It's a complex region.
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