Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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concordtom said:

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sycasey said:

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OAN is an explicitly right-wing outlet that has every reason to fudge facts in an attempt to hit a Democratic president. And you accuse me of just swallowing a narrative?

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It's so amazing to me that certain types go all enraged at potential yarns on one side, yet when it's overt and massive on their side they are silent or dismissive.

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You can see it when people get very passionate telling you about how the US government can lie to you, and how the US mass media can lie to you (which is true, sometimes!) . . . but then turn around and basically swallow a narrative from the Russian or Chinese government uncritically. That's not being a healthy skeptic, that's just choosing sides and sticking with them.

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That alleged Russian/Chinese government narrative is a prime example of the US government and MSM lying to you.

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No, those governments also put out their own lines of propaganda and you should be aware of that.

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An analysis that goes against the prevailing narrative will be branded as such. See the episode about Hunter's laptop, which the deep state/51 intell figures branded as Russian propaganda, and the MSM pushed that fake narrative in lockstep.

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Yes, but also . . . Russia has pushed out propaganda on this subject.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/politics/biden-former-fbi-informant-russian-intelligence/

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Red herring.

The info about Hunter's laptop came straight from the repair man to the public. What some indicted ex-FBI informant had to say about that is completely irrelevant, and no different from what the 51 intelligence veterans said (in fact he would be far less credible than any of them as an indicted ex-informant).

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No, I'm agreeing that the early narrative about the laptop was a bit of propaganda from the American side. Point to you on that.

But Russia has also pushed out other propaganda on this, whether or not the laptop story was true, and I think an honest broker has to acknowledge both phenomena.

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It's not just that the hunter laptop was propaganda on the American side, the relevant aspect is that it was deceptively branded as Russian propaganda by the deep state and MSM.

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Yes, I know that these things happen sometimes in the US. Will you acknowledge that other countries (like Russia or China) also do have deceptive propaganda of their own that is targeted at Americans?

"Half the country"? Man, you can't do math.

Try "slightly less than half of the people who bothered to vote."

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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concordtom said:

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sycasey said:

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OAN is an explicitly right-wing outlet that has every reason to fudge facts in an attempt to hit a Democratic president. And you accuse me of just swallowing a narrative?

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It's so amazing to me that certain types go all enraged at potential yarns on one side, yet when it's overt and massive on their side they are silent or dismissive.

---

You can see it when people get very passionate telling you about how the US government can lie to you, and how the US mass media can lie to you (which is true, sometimes!) . . . but then turn around and basically swallow a narrative from the Russian or Chinese government uncritically. That's not being a healthy skeptic, that's just choosing sides and sticking with them.

---

That alleged Russian/Chinese government narrative is a prime example of the US government and MSM lying to you.

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No, those governments also put out their own lines of propaganda and you should be aware of that.

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An analysis that goes against the prevailing narrative will be branded as such. See the episode about Hunter's laptop, which the deep state/51 intell figures branded as Russian propaganda, and the MSM pushed that fake narrative in lockstep.

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Yes, but also . . . Russia has pushed out propaganda on this subject.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/politics/biden-former-fbi-informant-russian-intelligence/

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Red herring.

The info about Hunter's laptop came straight from the repair man to the public. What some indicted ex-FBI informant had to say about that is completely irrelevant, and no different from what the 51 intelligence veterans said (in fact he would be far less credible than any of them as an indicted ex-informant).

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No, I'm agreeing that the early narrative about the laptop was a bit of propaganda from the American side. Point to you on that.

But Russia has also pushed out other propaganda on this, whether or not the laptop story was true, and I think an honest broker has to acknowledge both phenomena.

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It's not just that the hunter laptop was propaganda on the American side, the relevant aspect is that it was deceptively branded as Russian propaganda by the deep state and MSM.

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Yes, I know that these things happen sometimes in the US. Will you acknowledge that other countries (like Russia or China) also do have deceptive propaganda of their own that is targeted at Americans?

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Russia and China are pathetic at propaganda. China has no reach or understanding of modern propaganda. Russia had a marginal reach with RT on cable, and that was banned 2 years ago.

People like Mearsheimer and Sachs are branded as Russian disinfo agents simply because their analyses run counter the official narrative. The Russian propaganda meme is one of the most successful American propaganda campaigns ever.

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I think you underestimate how good their propaganda efforts are, but at least you admit that they do it.

I don't think Mearsheimer is a Russian agent; I just think he's wrong a lot.

So when we say "half the country" we are being figurative rather than specific. Half the country did not vote for Biden. Half the country did not vote for Trump. As I said before, slightly less than half of people who bothered to vote, voted for both candidates. So your false equivalence should be "less than half the people who bothered to vote, believed Joe Biden…"


Or are you operating under the assumption that exactly half of the entire population of the country, regardless of age, are Democrats, and the other half are Republicans?


Either way, the things you claim cause intelligent people to question your intelligence.

Hey cretins, it's going to be Saturday tomorrow. Why not try to do something productive and positive, rather than wasting your life on a message board that like 20 people read? Get a life.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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Hey cretins, it's going to be Saturday tomorrow. Why not try to do something productive and positive, rather than wasting your life on a message board that like 20 people read? Get a life.

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Hell yes! Cal vs, Stanfurd, live at Haas Pavillion! 1 PM tip. Join me...

Homework essay question:
If Putin is a baller who wouldn't hesitate to start WWIII, then……

Why didn't he have Zelensky whacked today at the Notre Dame festivities, ship his head to Moscow on dry ice and display it on a pike in Red Square a la Ivan the Terrible?

Zelensky is an unpopular figure at home, and his schtick is also wearing thin abroad. Trump doesn't like him. He sucks at military planning, constantly trying to score short term PR points at the expense of Ukrainian lives.

In other words, the Russians love him. He is likely to be ousted next year.

Cal88 said:

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Zelensky is an unpopular figure at home,

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What's the evidence for this? The only polling I can find still has him at 60% or better approval, down from the extreme highs at the start of the war for sure, but not enough to call him unpopular.

There's your problem: you aren't looking at the polling done by Russia. Russia tells the unvarnished truth every time. Just ask 88.

Please stop following me. Seek professional help for obsessive behavior.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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Zelensky is an unpopular figure at home,

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What's the evidence for this? The only polling I can find still has him at 60% or better approval, down from the extreme highs at the start of the war for sure, but not enough to call him unpopular.

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https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-deepening-unpopularity-of-zelensky/

The deepening unpopularity of Zelensky

• From magazine issue:07 December 2024

Quote:

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Perhaps all political careers must end, inevitably, in failure. But few politicians have had careers as meteoric, as surprising, as consequential or as heroic as that of Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky. In just five years he has gone from TV comedian to victor of the biggest presidential landslide in his country's history to inspiring wartime leader who impressed the

world with his resolve and personal bravery. But now with the war entering its third (and probably last) winter, Zelensky's extraordinary story as Ukraine's leader has reached its final chapter.

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🇺🇦 Zelensky's popularity has fallen after almost three years of war!

Only 16% of Ukrainians are ready to support Zelensky's re-election and more than half of the population does not want him to run for another term. pic.twitter.com/KeCEKlKO0s

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) November 30, 2024

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Spectator article is paywalled, but I did see the one number indicating that people don't want him to run again. But then there's also:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1100076/volodymyr-zelensky-s-approval-rating-ukraine/

Quote:

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In October 2024, nearly seven out of ten Ukrainians approved of the activities of Volodymyr Zelenskyy as the president of the country.

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https://kyivindependent.com/trust-in-zelensky-remains-high-among-ukrainians-poll-suggests/

Quote:

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According to the survey results released on Oct. 14, 59 per cent of Ukrainians polled hold "trust" in Zelensky while 37 per cent distrust the president. Another 3 per cent of poll respondents were unsure. The results are virtually unchanged from another KIIS survey released in May 2024 and down from a 2024 high of 64 per cent in February.

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Hm. Looks like some very conflicting polls here. Not sure what to believe.

Cal88 said:

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The fact that leading British MSM outlets are stating that Zelensky's popularity is plummeting is an unprecedented change in the narrative, and you know that they are most likely to understate that drop.

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Certainly his popularity has dropped from the extreme highs he had at the beginning of the war; I think that much is clear. Seems unclear if he's actually "unpopular" now, though.

Let's say I'm a Roosky in Rooskyland...

My phone rings. It's RooskyPoll: "Mr. Rooskovich, how do you feel about the job Vladimir Putin is doing?"

Me (looking out my window to see how far down it is, should I accidentally fall out): "I think he's doing an outstanding job!"

Cal88 said:

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Haloski said:

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Meanwhile, Putin has an 85%+ favorable rate in Russia. Go Putin!

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Why do you think that is, is it because the Russian public is dumb or evil?

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haha, no. Not in the least.

Big C said:

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Let's say I'm a Roosky in Rooskyland...

My phone rings. It's RooskyPoll: "Mr. Rooskovich, how do you feel about the job Vladimir Putin is doing?"

Me (looking out my window to see how far down it is, should I accidentally fall out): "I think he's doing an outstanding job!"

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The general spirit of this couldn't possibly be true. I'm sorry but we'll have to discard of any thought like this.

Haloski said:

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Big C said:

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Let's say I'm a Roosky in Rooskyland...

My phone rings. It's RooskyPoll: "Mr. Rooskovich, how do you feel about the job Vladimir Putin is doing?"

Me (looking out my window to see how far down it is, should I accidentally fall out): "I think he's doing an outstanding job!"

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The general spirit of this couldn't possibly be true. I'm sorry but we'll have to discard of any thought like this.

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Or boomer Cold War-era cliches get new lease on life thanks to Russiagate.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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The fact that leading British MSM outlets are stating that Zelensky's popularity is plummeting is an unprecedented change in the narrative, and you know that they are most likely to understate that drop.

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Certainly his popularity has dropped from the extreme highs he had at the beginning of the war; I think that much is clear. Seems unclear if he's actually "unpopular" now, though.

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Not from the articles I have linked. or even their headlines.

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Yes, and I linked some that showed the opposite. I can link more if you'd like, but I suspect you won't read them.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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The fact that leading British MSM outlets are stating that Zelensky's popularity is plummeting is an unprecedented change in the narrative, and you know that they are most likely to understate that drop.

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Certainly his popularity has dropped from the extreme highs he had at the beginning of the war; I think that much is clear. Seems unclear if he's actually "unpopular" now, though.

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Not from the articles I have linked. or even their headlines.

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Yes, and I linked some that showed the opposite. I can link more if you'd like, but I suspect you won't read them.

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This is the equivalent of the debates about Ann Selzer and co before the elections.

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Look, I wouldn't be shocked if Zelenskyy did not get reelected (or even if he chose not to run again). I just think the confidence about him being outright unpopular right now (as opposed to Ukrainians just being ready for change) is not warranted, given the current evidence.

I didn't think confidence in the outcome of the recent US election was warranted in either direction either. Yes, I made some extrapolations based on the idea that the Selzer poll (and some other indicators) might be accurate, but I don't think I ever projected great confidence in that. I tried to always note that the race seemed very close.

Cal88 said:

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Haloski said:

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Big C said:

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Let's say I'm a Roosky in Rooskyland...

My phone rings. It's RooskyPoll: "Mr. Rooskovich, how do you feel about the job Vladimir Putin is doing?"

Me (looking out my window to see how far down it is, should I accidentally fall out): "I think he's doing an outstanding job!"

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The general spirit of this couldn't possibly be true. I'm sorry but we'll have to discard of any thought like this.

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Or boomer Cold War-era cliches get new lease on life thanks to Russiagate.

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Do you truly believe that all Russians feel free to express ideas and positions that are counter to their government's if those are the ones they personally hold?

Haloski said:

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Cal88 said:

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Haloski said:

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Big C said:

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Let's say I'm a Roosky in Rooskyland...

My phone rings. It's RooskyPoll: "Mr. Rooskovich, how do you feel about the job Vladimir Putin is doing?"

Me (looking out my window to see how far down it is, should I accidentally fall out): "I think he's doing an outstanding job!"

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The general spirit of this couldn't possibly be true. I'm sorry but we'll have to discard of any thought like this.

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Or boomer Cold War-era cliches get new lease on life thanks to Russiagate.

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Do you truly believe that all Russians feel free to express ideas and positions that are counter to their government's if those are the ones they personally hold?

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In the context of a poll, yes.

If you had a basic understanding of recent Russian history and their descent into economic and social hell in the 1990s when nearly half the country lived below the poverty line, you might understand why Putin has been very popular, that and the fact that Russians tend to be patriotic.