SoCalBear323;842317293 said:

---

Not to mentioned that Obama has deported more individuals than any president in U.S. History.

---

Only cuz he's a Muslim and they don't like Mexican Catholics.

Unit2Sucks;842317288 said:

---

This is so true. I lost my sweet leaf-blowing gig to one of those guys from south of the border. In order to maintain my middle class lifestyle I tried selling bags of oranges on the freeway offramp. Big mistake - that was even more competitive! Finally, decided to ply my trade as a day laborer in the home depot parking lot, but once again the illegals ruined that formerly middle class career choice.

:sarc:

---

Unit2Sucks, I'm surprised in your disingenuous reply that you didn't trot out the additional false stereotype that illegal immigrants are here (mainly) picking produce. You missed one on your stereotype bandwagon tour.

Illegal immigrants have had a massive effect on the construction industry, a mainstay of the middle class. Yes, men would often go from laborer, to trainee, to experienced tradesman. And some from there would become a small business owner, maybe moving higher than the middle class. There are millions employed here. Carpenters, roofers, drywall, painting, tile work all used to provide a decent middle-class occupations.

A second huge industry which employs millions of illegal immigrants is the restaurant industry. Small landscaping businesses used to be able to make a decent living before millions came here illegally, driving down wages.

movielover;842317320 said:

---

Unit2Sucks, I'm surprised in your disingenuous reply that you didn't trot out the additional false stereotype that illegal immigrants are here (mainly) picking produce. You missed one on your stereotype bandwagon tour.

Illegal immigrants have had a massive effect on the construction industry, a mainstay of the middle class. Yes, men would often go from laborer, to trainee, to experienced tradesman. And some from there would become a small business owner, maybe moving higher than the middle class. There are millions employed here. Carpenters, roofers, drywall, painting, tile work all used to provide a decent middle-class occupations.

A second huge industry which employs millions of illegal immigrants is the restaurant industry. Small landscaping businesses used to be able to make a decent living before millions came here illegally, driving down wages.

---

Same displacement happens with technology. It's called man up, go to school and acquire new skills. Or go teach English in Latin America. Wild card bitches!

prospeCt;842317179 said:

---

:Lindsay

---

SoCalBear323;842317325 said:

---

Same displacement happens with technology. It's called man up, go to school and acquire new skills. Or go teach English in Latin America. Wild card bitches!

---

Exactly. Amazing how many people are pro free market except when we are talking about competition from people who weren't born here.

movielover;842317320 said:

---

Unit2Sucks, I'm surprised in your disingenuous reply that you didn't trot out the additional false stereotype that illegal immigrants are here (mainly) picking produce. You missed one on your stereotype bandwagon tour.

Illegal immigrants have had a massive effect on the construction industry, a mainstay of the middle class. Yes, men would often go from laborer, to trainee, to experienced tradesman. And some from there would become a small business owner, maybe moving higher than the middle class. There are millions employed here. Carpenters, roofers, drywall, painting, tile work all used to provide a decent middle-class occupations.

A second huge industry which employs millions of illegal immigrants is the restaurant industry. Small landscaping businesses used to be able to make a decent living before millions came here illegally, driving down wages.

---

Back to the future.

November 5, 1955.

Domesticity, middle class family values. No illegal immigrants. And Goldie Wilson just a busboy and not the mayor.

Ahhhh, the good old days.

Unit2Sucks;842317346 said:

---

Exactly. Amazing how many people are pro free market except when we are talking about competition from people who weren't born here.

---

?Que pasa? Funny how Libs claim to be a protector for the middle class while they simultaneously don't care when 20-40 million illegal immigrants undermine said middle class wages (and benefits). It's simple supply and demand. Ross Perot made a similar argument when he fought NAFTA. Conservatives have no problem with people who are here legally from Poland, Africa, Russia, China or India... most of whom are here legally.

The 'race card' talking point doesn't answer why many construction sites are now largely or 100% Mexican. African-, Mexican-, European- and Asian-Americans need not apply. What happened to "diversity"? Or "legal"?

The race card is also trotted out because Obama has failed in so many areas and ways. What has Obama accomplished?

Illegal immigrants undermine the lower class but not the middle class. I define the true lower class as anybody who can be easily replaced by someone who cant speak english, usually just a high school degree, and all they provide is manual labor sometimes in hazardous conditions. If thats middle class to you then I'm sorry your life sucks and you were done wrong in life.

movielover;842317385 said:

---

?Que pasa? Funny how Libs claim to be a protector for the middle class while they simultaneously don't care when 20-40 million illegal immigrants undermine said middle class wages (and benefits).

---

I can't speak for libs, but why shouldn't we care about mexicans who came here for a better life? My law school roommate was the son of migrant farmworkers. Do you consider him an American success story or a failure of our policy to prevent people like him from enjoying the benefits of our free market? It's not clear to me why we would prefer one group of residents over another.

tommie317;842317414 said:

---

Illegal immigrants undermine the lower class but not the middle class. I define the true lower class as anybody who can be easily replaced by someone who cant speak english, usually just a high school degree, and all they provide is manual labor sometimes in hazardous conditions. If thats middle class to you then I'm sorry your life sucks and you were done wrong in life.

---

Thanks for your reasonable response. I grew up with lots of blue collar men who raised families, owned homes, and were solid citizens. (I'm not as familiar with the restaurant business, but I'd think many jobs could help to sustain a lower middle class life.)

There are many levels of illegal, and the free market even works there. A construction crew leader is often someone who has been here 5 or 10 years, speaks English good enough to converse with a customer, and can be the relay to the General Contractor or business owner. Then there is often a trainee / laborer or two working for lower wages.

Dry wall, cement work, carpentry, painting, roofing, pool construction, even lawn care (if it were your business) were jobs that could keep you in the middle class.

Another barrier now for Americans is that it is tough for a non-Spanish speaker to work on these crews. ... A UC professor even studied how illegal immigrants dramatically lowered the wages for hotel maids, driving out mainly African American women who lost wages and benefits. ($40-45,000 a year is better than $22,000 a year or welfare.)

Unit2Sucks;842317458 said:

---

I can't speak for libs, but why shouldn't we care about mexicans who came here for a better life? My law school roommate was the son of migrant farmworkers. Do you consider him an American success story or a failure of our policy to prevent people like him from enjoying the benefits of our free market? It's not clear to me why we would prefer one group of residents over another.

---

I'd think we would have more concern for American workers, be they African American carpenters, Mexican-American painters, single women or returning veterans. I have empathy for other peoples struggles, but shouldn't the Mexican government and people get their economy going?

Shouldn't citizenship have benefits, or should we allow the whole world to move here?

movielover;842317465 said:

---

Shouldn't citizenship have benefits, or should we allow the whole world to move here?

---

Well, that was kind of the principle our country was founded upon.

I understand the concerns about letting in too many immigrants, but honestly I don't think we're particularly close to critical mass there. Plenty of other countries are a lot more crowded than ours.

Also, I do not think it's the illegal immigrants themselves who are lowering wages for everyone else -- it's the business owners who hire said illegals because they know they can exploit them and pay them pennies. If immigration is to be controlled, it needs to be at that level. But of course, it is not; we just round up the people we can find and send them back, while more keep streaming over the border and finding work for low pay and no benefits.

movielover wrote: "Shouldn't citizenship have benefits, or should we allow the whole world to move here?"

sycasey;842317546 said:

---

Well, that was kind of the principle our country was founded upon.

---

Not exactly. We have the most liberal immigration policies in the world. We have immigration laws and processes (that we used to follow), including allowing immigrants in with proven skills in areas of need. Legal immigration. Ellis Island.

sycasey;842317546 said:

---

I understand the concerns about letting in too many immigrants, but honestly I don't think we're particularly close to critical mass there. Plenty of other countries are a lot more crowded than ours.

---

Progressives seem to spend first and worry about finances later. We haven't even paid for our current retirees, and we're importing a populace that will disproportionately use benefits. We're allowing millions of illegal immigrants in who don't even know how to read or write proper Spanish, which causes numerous problems for our society. We've had an explosion in gangs, and what happened to diversity? If you allow in tens of millions of illegal immigrants from central and south america, that's not diverse.

sycasey;842317546 said:

---

Also, I do not think it's the illegal immigrants themselves who are lowering wages for everyone else -- it's the business owners who hire said illegals because they know they can exploit them and pay them pennies. If immigration is to be controlled, it needs to be at that level. But of course, it is not; we just round up the people we can find and send them back, while more keep streaming over the border and finding work for low pay and no benefits.

---

No one is paid pennies. Typically these people make $10 - 25 per hour. Nations have always controlled illegal immigration, and if someone is serious, I'd suggest they would tackle it every way possible. At the border, with employers, with employees, etc.

Recently, AG Eric Holder and Barack Obama have released over 100,000 illegal immigrants from prison, including over 150 who were up on various murder charges.

movielover;842317677 said:

---

movielover wrote: "Shouldn't citizenship have benefits, or should we allow the whole world to move here?"



Not exactly. We have the most liberal immigration policies in the world. We have immigration laws and processes (that we used to follow), including allowing immigrants in with proven skills in areas of need. Legal immigration. Ellis Island.



Progressives seem to spend first and worry about finances later. We haven't even paid for our current retirees, and we're importing a populace that will disproportionately use benefits. We're allowing millions of illegal immigrants in who don't even know how to read or write proper Spanish, which causes numerous problems for our society. We've had an explosion in gangs, and what happened to diversity? If you allow in tens of millions of illegal immigrants from central and south america, that's not diverse.



No one is paid pennies. Typically these people make $10 - 25 per hour. Nations have always controlled illegal immigration, and if someone is serious, I'd suggest they would tackle it every way possible. At the border, with employers, with employees, etc.

Recently, AG Eric Holder and Barack Obama have released over 100,000 illegal immigrants from prison, including over 150 who were up on various murder charges.

---

You've made a number of claims here without sourcing or evidence, and I am skeptical that some of them are true. Can you provide links?

sycasey, sure thing

Haven't funded numerous programs: SS, Medicare, Medicaid...
http://usdebtclock.org/

Immigration: involved issue, use google, too many links or post. We let in about 1 million people via our green card program; then temporary visas (250k per year?); agriculture visas, tourist visas, plus 20-45 million illegal immigrants. One link I read said we have 20% of the world's (legal) immigrants. (Try getting a visa for Japan.)

Neighbors and friends have told me what they have paid occasional day laborers or tradesmen. $10 an hour min, plus lunch, $15 + for tougher jobs, $20/hr for a professional painter, and markedly higher for an experienced car paint man.

Obama Administration Releases 68,000 Illegal Immigrant Criminals
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/17963-obama-administration-releases-68-000-illegal-immigrant-criminals

"...The revelations by the Center for Immigration Studies, which obtained an internal Department of Homeland Security document, showed that the 36,007 criminal aliens carried out 87,818 crimes including 193 murders, 426 sexual assaults, 303 kidnappings, and 1,075 aggravated assaults. They also generated more than 15,000 drunk driving convictions."

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/US/immigration-deportation-Lamar-Smith-Obama/2014/05/14/id/571190#ixzz32KDavdhS
Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now!

sycasey, sure thing

Haven't funded numerous programs: SS, Medicare, Medicaid...
http://usdebtclock.org/

Immigration: involved issue, use google, too many links or post. We let in about 1 million people via our green card program; then temporary visas (250k per year?); agriculture visas, tourist visas, plus 20-45 million illegal immigrants. One link I read said we have 20% of the world's (legal) immigrants. (Try getting a visa for Japan.)

Neighbors and friends have told me what they have paid occasional day laborers or tradesmen. $10 an hour min, plus lunch, $15 + for tougher jobs, $20/hr for a professional painter, and markedly higher for an experienced car paint man.

Obama Administration Releases 68,000 Illegal Immigrant Criminals
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...rant-criminals

"...The revelations by the Center for Immigration Studies, which obtained an internal Department of Homeland Security document, showed that the 36,007 criminal aliens carried out 87,818 crimes including 193 murders, 426 sexual assaults, 303 kidnappings, and 1,075 aggravated assaults. They also generated more than 15,000 drunk driving convictions."

http://www.newsmax.com/US/immigratio...#ixzz32KDavdhS
___________________________________________

Immigration numbers get kinda complex, and we apparently even have a large backlog of legal applicants. This becomes even tougher for Mexico, because we have a per-country "cap", which means than many applicants from Mexico may have to wait for 10 years, or longer, to obtain a green card.