I had an issue at the nations you are talking about, I just simply didn't go back. I was a regular at the Nations in San Pablo and never had an issue or problems there.

NYCGOBEARS;842313777 said:

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Dirty ass hippy.

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Bingo. Trust me on this one. :p

I'm honestly sorry to hear that those guys were jerks to you and that at least one of them brought race into it. However:

CalAlumnus13;842313689 said:

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That said, I think you'd agree that racism toward blacks and other "typical" victims of this sort of activity is exceedingly rare in Berkeley, and the Bay Area generally---certainly far rarer than just about any other part of the country.

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While I think the last part of this statement (the part after the hyphens) might be true, I humbly disagree with the rest of it and might even disagree if you took out the word 'exceedingly', which just makes it seem farcical to me.

I am neither white nor black, and have not considered myself in any way a victim of racism in the true sense. But here are some anecdotes from my life in the bay area which, at least in my mind, seem to rise at least roughly on the scale of your anecdote. And of course, as with all ultra-sparse anecdotal evidence, none of it is the the best basis to make generalizations about anything (such as racism, reverse or not, in the bay area).

- Pledging fraternity at Cal. Dating white girl at the time who was also a Cal student and had gone to my high school as well. Active in fraternity (white dude), after meeting her once calls her a slut and says she must like dark meat. I am a bit confused and start to react violently to it and am restrained, which is good because I would have gotten my butt kicked. Neither the guy himself nor any of the other actives ever apologized or talked about it again. Later the guy answered the phone when my father called and I was away and said that I was out eating [food associated with my ethnicity] (I was not doing that) and hung up. Even later, the guy was kicked out of the fraternity for embezzling while treasurer. Possibly because I had low self esteem at the time, I went through as a pledge and became an active member of the fraternity, made friends etc. Never thought too much more about it.

- About 10 years ago in San Francisco, I went to a party with a couple I was friends with (both white, both super nice, cool people). I was still slightly hung over from the previous night and did not feel like drinking much, so I drove. The woman (call her w1) knew the woman throwing the party (call her w2). Towards the tail end of the party, one of w2's other friends, white female (call her w3), who we had not met was leaving with her boyfriend but was too inebriated to walk properly, especially down stairs. W3's boyfriend was way ahead, loudly chatting and laughing with his buddies. W2 (petite) was struggling to help w3 (much larger) out of the building and to a taxi and getting no help. W1 was near me and asked if I would help so I got on the other side of w3, under her arm, and with w2 got w3 to the sidewalk and started helping her towards the cab that her boyfriend had called (still talking with friends, not helping). W3 then manages to glance at me and immediately recoils and tells me not to f-ing touch her, and calls me a two word ethnic slur usually applied to someone of Middle Eastern descent, but one that also side-swipes blacks. I was again momentarily taken aback, partly since I am neither Middle Eastern nor black, but before I knew it, w2 had helped w3 into the taxi, finally with help from w3's boyfriend. No one says anything further as we leave the party other than my friend w1 and her boyfriend. W1 is in tears, apologizing and saying how she can't believe it the whole drive back. W1's boyfriend is more composed (he was way in the back of the house and missed the incident) but also apologizing. Which was nice of them but also totally unnecessary since they share nothing with w3 other than race. I was more surprised than insulted by w3, and I didn't say all that much during the drive, not because I was too upset, but because almost nothing I could say seemed to make w1 and her friend feel better or stop apologizing. The next day, w2 sent me a brief apologetic email after having gotten my email address from w1. Weirdly, my main emotion at the time was just annoyance at w3's boyfriend for not being the one to help her, but of course I never saw or heard from w3 or her boyfriend again.

- Less than a year ago, I got out of the public transportation that takes me from where I live in San Francisco to where I work (downtown SF) and noticed that my iPhone had a message about a meeting time being changed. I eventually come to a stop on a street corner near Market and California because I notice there are also some emails I need to answer right away. So as I'm standing on the street corner while everyone walks by, I hear someone ask if they can use my phone. I look up and it's a tall-ish strung out but fairly athletic looking white guy, not carrrying a briefcase or laptop. I decline politely and he takes the approach of immediately invading my personal space while telling me, ironically to "just back off, okay?". I notice out of the corner of my eye that another guy (also white) is headed my direction and I start yelling and running. Of course it's downtown, no one does anything, but I get across the street and the two men don't follow me. The first one points a finger at me and says he'll see me later. His buddy then shouts a racial slur at me usually intended for those of Mexican origin along with a couple other expletives (ironically again, I'm not of Mexican or Latin American descent). They bail around a corner and this whole time, I'm also headed briskly in the opposite direction. I consider calling/finding a cop but decide it's not worth it because I need to get to work and, not being a lawyer, I'm not 100% sure whether a crime has occurred (suspect not).

- There was another incident several years ago in the south bay involving police which may or may not have been race-motivated (I thought it was), and of course cops and race are a whole separate topic, so I won't delve further into that one - except to clarify that in the end after a half hour interaction with 2 policemen, I was not arrested or charged with anything (nor had I done anything) other than a ticket for going 35 in a 25 at 1am, sober after a very late night at work.

None of the above caused me any difficulty regarding my ability to live or work somewhere. None of the people (except maybe the fraternity situation while I was a pledge) really had direct power over me. My life was really not negatively impacted. I wasn't thrilled by any of it, but nor did it ever occur to me to start raising general questions about racism in the bay area. It was just some people being jerks (and yes, I include the woman, w3, from the party under the designation "jerk"). These incidents were few and far between. And to be clear, a couple of my friends that are white have also experienced similar stuff with different words being used.

But to suggest that racism towards blacks and other "typical" victims is exceedingly rare in the bay area in general seems way off to me. Both my experiences and your recent one just don't seem to be in the same ballpark as what some people, especially blacks/African Americans, experience more regularly, even in the bay area.

Racism is racism, and it's no good, but let's keep things in perspective. Maybe it's like a marketing executive complaining in the presence of a (drafted) Vietnam vet who saw combat duty about being mugged. No one thinks mugging is good. It sucks. So sympathy to the marketing executive. But there also needs to be some sense of proportion and some restraint when even suggesting generalizations, such as reverse-racism, about say the bay area as a whole. Mostly, I think you just ran into a couple jerks, but for that, you have my sympathy.

Peace. And oh yeah, Go Bears!

CalAlumnus13;842313764 said:

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Ugh again. I used the term African-American because it is supported by black (to use your term) leaders, most notably Jesse Jackson. No matter what word I chose, someone could have objected to it.

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Yeah. I get that. Wasn't targeting you. Apologies.

Golden One;842313782 said:

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Huh? When did "African-American" become offensive? And since when does it mean that one was "born in Africa"? I'm of Italian heritage and I don't cringe at being considered an Italian-American. And I wasn't born in Italy, but in Oakland, California.

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If you self-identify as Italian American go for it. My point is I, as in me, think the hyphenated descriptions miss the point and are presumptuous, confusing, and clumsy. If I look at a stranger I have no idea of their nationality, so why use monickers that attempt to do so? All I can explicitly see are physical descriptions of which skin color is one. The designation African-American does make an implicit claim of near connection to Africa and pride in heritage. Does a fifth generation black American truly feel some connection to Africa or feel that their citizenship should be hyphenated? Until they've told you that why would one make that assumption?

I am second generation American, mother from Ukraine. No one would know that from looking at me. I am proud of my heritage and happy to talk about it if we get to know each other, but I was raised here and know nothing else. My nationality is American. My heritage is Ukrainian. I personally think the hyphenated self-identifying is BS. There is no country Ukraine-America.

sycasey;842313722 said:

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I disagree with this. Racism is racism. There is no such thing as "reverse" racism. It doesn't matter if it happens against blacks, the Japanese, Jews, Native Americans, the Irish, etc.. Racism is racism.

Of course some groups have had it considerably worse in this country for a long time. But that doesn't mean that racism can be limited to the structural and/or anecdotal injustices perpetrated against "non-'Whites.'"

When you're discriminated against, it hurts. I don't think we should jump on others because they have it "easier" than others. At some point, we're all discriminated against because of race, age, where we're from, family background, etc. No matter who it's done to and how, it all sucks.

When I was growing up, I remember my white friend's mother told me to go drink from the hose in the yard when I asked for some water. Thankfully, I didn't realize this was racist until I remembered these incidents much later in life. The point is, stuff like this happens when you live in a diverse world like ours and you choose to engage in it. The only thing you can control is your response and reaction to these incidents. Let the hatters hat.

Bobodeluxe;842313568 said:

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Racism is a scaler, not a vector.

Of course, centuries of generally sanctioned slavery does have its rewards.

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America didn't invent slavery, which still exists for millions in Africa. But when it's Muslim against Christian, African against African, it got little airplay.

ducky23;842313650 said:

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Really?

Whenever something actually "racist" happens, people on this board go on these rants about how society is just too PC.

Now some white kid gets scared ordering a pie from Nations and we all feel so sorry for the poor white kid.

I know you mean well, but welcome to our world. Where I grew up, the few black kids in the area would experience something like that every day. One of my close friends (who happened to drive a somewhat nice car) would get pulled over by the cops on a weekly basis. I know he's not lying, because I got pulled over with him a minimum of three times.

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Sounds PC to me.

CalAlumnus13;842313689 said:

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That said, I think you'd agree that racism toward blacks and other "typical" victims of this sort of activity is exceedingly rare in Berkeley, and the Bay Area generally---certainly far rarer than just about any other part of the country.

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Wow, that comment is a bit naive... I can name several instances that directly refute it but I'm curious what factors would make you think that?

Just for your own edification, no -- I would not agree. But I do appreciate the discussion, as I always do, because I think it does a lot to clear up misconceptions.

The Duke!;842313837 said:

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Of course some groups have had it considerably worse in this country for a long time.

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This is the point, though. The occasional racial insult a white person may get (in this country) isn't the same as systematic, institutionalized racism that other races face. It's for this reason that it's not really enough to say "racism is racism" -- you're completely removing all social context.

OdontoBear66;842313727 said:

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Should not have happened (or is happening) one way. Should not happen the other way. Neither one is right. But because of the excesses of the former, we oft try to excuse the latter. Not right either way. Not equal either, but not right.

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Good post, thanks. I was a CalSO counselor in the early '80s and, while it was roughly a decade before the term political correctness was widely used, it was pretty clear what words and type of behaviors were condoned or criticized at Cal. Even though it was a few years after the Bakke decision, the CalSO staff always covered all possible Cal students and reminded me of Noah's Ark by ones. As such, there was a lot of sensitivity training. Was an awesome job and exposed me to a lot of different students who were terrific.

The prevailing definition of racism at the time was that only the dominant/most powerful racial group could be racist towards minority/less powerful racial groups. Other groups could be prejudiced, bigoted, or intolerant, but not racist. Is that still the prevailing definition in academia? "Reverse racism" always sounds awkward to me. Racial intolerance by the minority group towards the majority group seems best covered by racism. I get why racism, sexism, and homophobia are elevated, but all forms of discrimination, bigotry, intolerance, and prejudice are deplorable.

This thread has departed from what I intended, which is my fault because I didn't address it directly in the OP, and because I was too aggressive in making the thread's title succinct. In hindsight, I should have made the title "An Odd Experience at Nation's."

Let me be clear: my experience at Nation's was not racism against me. I meant "Reverse Racism" in a very broad, generic sense—something like "race-focused negativity from a historically-oppressed group toward a historically-oppressive group."

The man's comment was a negative remark, perhaps class-based, with a racial overtone—and not racism in the formal sense of the word. I am not complaining about it and it didn't seriously affect me. It just struck me as odd, and made me nervous in the moment because it was so unusual. I am not at all comparing it to the experiences of African-Americans/blacks/whatever in the Jim Crow South, or to incidences of true racism today.

The reason I posted was to try and understand the comment, by asking if similar things had occurred in Berkeley to anyone else. I thought that, perhaps, my experience suggested something about racial or class-based tensions in the city of Berkeley, with its wealthy areas, lower-income areas, white areas, minority areas, and, of course, student areas.

If experiences like the one I related were common in Berkeley, it might suggest that the mix of people in Berkeley—and, especially, the constant influx and departure of Cal students—had given rise to resentment from the lower-income or minority populations.

sycasey;842313891 said:

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This is the point, though. The occasional racial insult a white person may get (in this country) isn't the same as systematic, institutionalized racism that other races face. It's for this reason that it's not really enough to say "racism is racism" -- you're completely removing all social context.

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These are vast generalizations. I believe the hate-crime statistics are telling.

But let's take it up three notches. If "institutionalized racism" is so overwhelming - how is it that Nigerian-Americans have become so successful in America?

How is it that Ethiopian-Americans have become so successful in America? Vietnamese-Americans? Chinese-Americans? Iranian-Americans?

And by "so successful", last I read this was outperforming European-Americans.

movielover;842313922 said:

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These are vast generalizations. I believe the hate-crime statistics are telling.

But let's take it up three notches. If "institutionalized racism" is so overwhelming - how is it that Nigerian-Americans have become so successful in America?

How is it that Ethiopian-Americans have become so successful in America? Vietnamese-Americans? Chinese-Americans? Iranian-Americans?

And by "so successful", last I read this was outperforming European-Americans.

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First off, I wouldn't say "vietnamese americans" are as successful as you may believe. San Jose is the home to the largest vietnamese population in the United States, and as a group, their income is well below that of the median income for the area.

Second, why are Ethiopian Americans successful (or nigerian americans)? Because the majority of those who immigrate to the US from Ethiopia are highly educated, especially when compared to other immigrant groups. So, of course they still must struggle with the institutional racism that is still prevalant in the US, but they will still be more successful than other immigrant groups because they enter this country already with a leg up.

You can make the same generalization with Indian-Americans. Why are Indian-Americans so successful, especially in the Silicon Valley? duh? Its because they all have engineering degrees. lets compare that to those who immigrate from, lets say southest asian, who immigrate to this country with absolutely nothing.

So yes, instiutional racism still exists, but some immigrant groups are able to overcome such obstacles because they already enter this country with very advanced degrees.

But even with that said, while minorities can reach a certain degree of success; there is still a glass ceiling for minorities. Lets just look at the legal profession for instance (I only use this example because it happens to be my field and I'm most familiar with it - but I'm sure this applies to all fields). Take a look at the number of Asian attorneys and then see if its proportionate to the number of Asian law partners. You can do the same for every ethnic group (hispanic, blacks, etc). You really want to make the argument that Asians can't make partner because they are stupider or not as ambitious as their white counterparts?

ducky23;842313933 said:

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First off, I wouldn't say "vietnamese americans" are as successful as you may believe. San Jose is the home to the largest vietnamese population in the United States, and as a group, their income is well below that of the median income for the area.

Second, why are Ethiopian Americans successful? Because the majority of those who immigrate to the US from Ethiopia are highly educated, especially when compared to other immigrant groups. So, of course they still must struggle with the institutional racism that is still prevalant in the US, but they will still be more successful than other immigrant groups because they enter this country already with a leg up.

You can make the same generalization with Indian-Americans. Why are Indian-Americans so successful, especially in the Silicon Valley? duh? Its because they all have engineering degrees. lets compare that to those who immigrate from, lets say southest asian, who immigrate to this country with absolutely nothing.

So yes, instiutional racism still exists, but some immigrant groups are able to overcome such obstacles because they already enter this country with very advanced degrees.

But even with that said, while minorities can reach a certain degree of success; there is still a glass ceiling for minorities. Lets just look at the legal profession for instance (I only use this example because it happens to be my field and I'm most familiar with it - but I'm sure this applies to all fields). Take a look at the number of Asian attorneys and then see if its proportionate to the number of Asian law partners. You can do the same for every ethnic group (hispanic, blacks, etc). You really want to make the argument that Asians can't make partner because they are stupider or not as ambitious as their white counterparts?

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Are there really more Vietnamese in San Jose than OC?

NYCGOBEARS;842313935 said:

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Are there really more Vietnamese in San Jose than OC?

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Yes, and its not even close. San jose has the largest population of Vietnamese outside of Vietnam. I know this because I work very closely with the vietnamese community in San jose, and the vietnamese CBO's I work with would be very surprised to learn that Vietnamese Americans are "successful."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_Vietnamese-American_populations

movielover;842313922 said:

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These are vast generalizations.

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Of course they are! That's the point -- that sometimes we get lost in analyzing individual examples while missing the larger picture.

movielover;842313922 said:

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But let's take it up three notches. If "institutionalized racism" is so overwhelming - how is it that Nigerian-Americans have become so successful in America?

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There is a difference between those who have voluntarily immigrated to this country and those who were brought here in chains.

movielover;842313922 said:

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And by "so successful", last I read this was outperforming European-Americans.

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Where did you read that? What is the metric?

ducky23;842313939 said:

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Yes, and its not even close. San jose has the largest population of Vietnamese outside of Vietnam. I know this because I work very closely with the vietnamese community in San jose, and the vietnamese CBO's I work with would be very surprised to learn that Vietnamese Americans are "successful."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_Vietnamese-American_populations

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Interesting, I wasn't aware that San Jose held that distinction. They should probably lump Garden Grove, Westminster and possibly Santa Ana together for this metric. In my eyes, it's almost apples to oranges when you factor in total population and land size. That said, I have found several communities within San Jose and Milipitas to be very reminiscent of what you'll find in the OC so I don't doubt you have your "ear to the ground" so to speak.

sycasey;842313891 said:

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This is the point, though. The occasional racial insult a white person may get (in this country) isn't the same as systematic, institutionalized racism that other races face. It's for this reason that it's not really enough to say "racism is racism" -- you're completely removing all social context.

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"This country" is a diverse place. It is harder to be Jewish in some places than it is to be Mexican in others. It is harder to be Japanese in some places, but Irish Catholic in others. Racism is racism. It is wrong.

[COLOR="Blue"]Don't forget the better than average success, or maybe leader of most measurement systems, Japanese-Americans.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="blue"]
Or the success of "British Blacks". (Dr. Thomas Sowell term.) Or Jewish-Americans.[/COLOR]

ducky23;842313933 said:

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First off, I wouldn't say "vietnamese americans" are as successful as you may believe...."

[COLOR="blue"]According to PBS: "Since 1980, the median income of Vietnamese Americans has jumped ahead of the national average."[/COLOR]

You wrote: "...So, of course they still must struggle with the institutional racism that is still prevalant in the US, but they will still be more successful than other immigrant groups because they enter this country already with a leg up."

[COLOR="blue"]If they achieve above the average, and have higher rates of family formation, business formation, college education, etc., I'm not sure how you are so quick to downplay their success. The interesting major factor is how the majority of African-Americans have brushed off marriage, which is a far more telling indicator of financial or familial success.[/COLOR]

You wrote: "...lets compare that to those who immigrate from, lets say southest asian, who immigrate to this country with absolutely nothing." [COLOR="blue"]Asian-Americans do well almost across the board.[/COLOR]

You wrote: "...Lets just look at the legal profession for instance (I only use this example because it happens to be my field and I'm most familiar with it - but I'm sure this applies to all fields). Take a look at the number of Asian attorneys and then see if its proportionate to the number of Asian law partners. You can do the same for every ethnic group (hispanic, blacks, etc). You really want to make the argument that Asians can't make partner because they are stupider or not as ambitious as their white counterparts?

---

[COLOR="blue"]You have several logical fallacies here.
1. Asian-American partners will be less by virtue of when they graduated from law school. There are many Partners who are 55, 65, 70, 75. There is a large time lag for this to occur.
2. I have many Asian-American friends who have preferred to open their small business than to work for the man... I mean, the corporation.
3. An Asian-American friend recently launched his own law practice, and now has business flooding in the door. No, he is not Indian or Chinese, he is from what you might call a more impoverished country. By the end of his first six months, he has a run rate of doing over $160,000 per year, and his trajectory is skyward. What a country! BTW, he practices in an area with many white folks who seem to love his practice and the job he does.
4. Do the Asian-American lawyers go to large firms, do they work the same amount of hours, do they go to the same law schools in exactly the same numbers? Too many unknown factors.
5. If you are a lawyer, how do you have the time to blog all morning?

[/COLOR]

The Duke!;842313951 said:

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"This country" is a diverse place. It is harder to be Jewish in some places than it is to be Mexican in others. It is harder to be Japanese in some places, but Irish Catholic in others. Racism is racism. It is wrong.

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Again, let's not confuse the larger issue with individual examples.

Edit. Sorry.

But maybe the offensive lineman who beat down Fabiano Hale in the locker room was an example of white privilege, I'll let you make the call. I just figure it is a coach protecting his team and a key player.

The Duke!;842313951 said:

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"This country" is a diverse place. It is harder to be Jewish in some places than it is to be Mexican in others. It is harder to be Japanese in some places, but Irish Catholic in others. Racism is racism. It is wrong.

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I don't think anyone is arguing that racism in all forms is wrong.

However, there are degrees of racism, and different degrees of racism probably deserves different types of responses.

Lets take this to the extreme.

Lets say there is a lynching of a black person in Los Angeles. Is that the same type of racism that the OP experienced? obviously not.

A lynching or something of that magnitude would probably necessitate a country-wide discussion of race relations in this country.

I'm not sure the OP's experience even rises to the level of a BI discussion of race relations in this country.

So can't we all agree that racism is racism, no matter how big or small or what race is experiencing the racism. But that it would be silly not to acknowledge that there are degrees of racism.

The Duke!;842313951 said:

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It is harder to be Jewish in some places than it is to be Mexican in others. It is harder to be Japanese in some places, but Irish Catholic in others.

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I know what your point is, but in my coffee addled mind, I had to laugh.

Wouldn't one kind be stuck with the hand, or genes, they drew regardless of location?

If you take one "city", yes, San Jose is the largest. (~100,000)

But if you add Garden Grove, Westminster, Santa Ana, and Anaheim together, they would be larger. (~120,000)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_Vietnamese-American_populations

movielover;842313962 said:

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If you take one "city", yes, San Jose is the largest. (~100,000)

But if you add Garden Grove, Westminster, Santa Ana, and Anaheim together, they would be larger. (~120,000)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_Vietnamese-American_populations

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and your point is?

ducky23;842313958 said:

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A lynching or something of that magnitude would probably necessitate a country-wide discussion of race relations in this country.

I'm not sure the OP's experience even rises to the level of a BI discussion of race relations in this country.

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- Racism is wrong, but it's interesting how you say that the OP BI is not qualified to discuss this topic. But I gather you are. Interesting.

- Your extreme example is decades old.

- Actually, the recent upsurge in what some call the "Knockout Game" against Jewish-, Asian-, and European-Americans by black youth was ignored, and then attempts to say it didn't exist ... though we all can view Youtube plain as day.

movielover;842313968 said:

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- Racism is wrong, but it's interesting how you say that the OP BI is not qualified to discuss this topic. But I gather you are. Interesting.

- Your extreme example is decades old.

- Actually, the recent upsurge in what some call the "Knockout Game" against Jewish-, Asian-, and European-Americans by black youth was ignored, and then attempts to say it didn't exist ... though we all can view Youtube plain as day.

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this will be my last post for you; cause its honestly just too tiring and no one is going to change your mind about anything. but I'm not sure how anyone can deny that institutional racism exists in America (especially days after the Sterling mess), but whatever, diversity of opinion, its apparently what makes this country great.

and i'm not saying I'm more qualified to discuss the topic. my whole point is that I wouldn't have brought up the topic in the first place. and until the OP, i don't think any other BI poster has brought up a similar topic in the past, despite the fact that we have all experienced some form of racism in one form or another.

PC: one of the greatest cop out, puff pastry, non-subtantive expressions of all time.

ducky23;842313971 said:

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but I'm not sure how anyone can deny that institutional racism exists in America (especially days after the Sterling mess)

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I don't deny that there are racist institutions in the US.

But how on earth does Sterling exemplify this? That was a case of personal (not institutional) racism. The organization he owned hired plenty of black coaches, players, and executives.

As soon as an institution actually got involved with his racial views, they banned him from participation.

ducky23;842313971 said:

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this will be my last post for you; cause its honestly just too tiring and no one is going to change your mind about anything. but I'm not sure how anyone can deny that institutional racism exists in America (especially days after the Sterling mess), but whatever, diversity of opinion, its apparently what makes this country great.

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I didn't say that "IR" doesn't exist. Its just way overblown, as is racism. America is a meritocracy, democracy, and employs a free market system. I think Larry Elder, author and formerly of KABC Radio said that racism was item no. 17 affecting the success of African Americans.

On the flip side, demographers or sociologists have had to come up with a new term called "multi-partner fertility" to address the new American phenomena where a man will have multiple children with multiple (different) women, often without marriage. Common sense, rare today, dictates that a child born into this situation faces much bigger hurdles regardless of ethnicity. These out-of-wedlock births cause any number of educational, emotional, and financial problems. So when over 70 percent of black children are born out of wedlock, is that the fault of "IR"? It is the choice of black men and women to not marry.

I have dozens of black friends with UC and graduate degrees, and most all of them have done very well, or outstanding. The better the education, the more degrees, the bigger the (good) risk taker, the better the strategy, the more success they have. I rarely see the "IR". I'm talking one man pioneering a new segment of international law. (He is fluent in another Asian language.) I am talking a top lawyer with a monied multi-billion firm. I am talking men who manage the building of airports, mass transit expansion projects, and more. Hires can be completely colorblind today (phone interviews nationally or internationally).

On the flip side, the ethnic groups I mentioned followed the traditional path to success. Education and marriage. Whether you're white or orange, if you go down the "multi-partner fertility" route, you'll inhibit your own success.

Lastly, many of the debates or conversations I have had with individuals like yourself have ended up to be individuals who had an ethnic study major, and when I start citing facts or observations that they weren't indoctrinated to counter, their eyes starts spinning. I am sure most of the readers here also have numerous friends or colleagues of all backgrounds who have succeeded in our meritocracy.

sycasey;842313891 said:

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This is the point, though. The occasional racial insult a white person may get (in this country) isn't the same as systematic, institutionalized racism that other races face. It's for this reason that it's not really enough to say "racism is racism" -- you're completely removing all social context.

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You don't need context. If racism isn't bad in itself, it doesn't become bad because it is directly against one race or directed in greater degree. Are their instances when racism isn't evil? Otherwise, stop trying to trivialize any form of racism by saying that some groups experience it more.

blungld;842313836 said:

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If you self-identify as Italian American go for it. My point is I, as in me, think the hyphenated descriptions miss the point and are presumptuous, confusing, and clumsy. If I look at a stranger I have no idea of their nationality, so why use monickers that attempt to do so? All I can explicitly see are physical descriptions of which skin color is one. The designation African-American does make an implicit claim of near connection to Africa and pride in heritage. Does a fifth generation black American truly feel some connection to Africa or feel that their citizenship should be hyphenated? Until they've told you that why would one make that assumption?

I am second generation American, mother from Ukraine. No one would know that from looking at me. I am proud of my heritage and happy to talk about it if we get to know each other, but I was raised here and know nothing else. My nationality is American. My heritage is Ukrainian. I personally think the hyphenated self-identifying is BS. There is no country Ukraine-America.

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I don't have a problem with African American being presumptuous, but confusing and clumsy is right. It isn't really isn't a good racial identifier. For a variety of reasons, at some point, Negro was no longer acceptable. Black became acceptable. White had been acceptable for a long time, black was good as being the counterpart of white. But for a variety of reasons, some were uncomfortable with black, and they wanted to adopt African American.

If African American becomes the only acceptable way to describe a race, what of those who are from Canada? Because they are from North America, African American is OK? OK, what about those who are from England (hello, Kingsley!)? What about those who are from France? I've known blacks from other countries who get really pissed off when they are referred to as African American. "I'm not American, damn it!!"

I had a good friend I had first met in junior high whose parents immigrated from Morocco. He started identifying his ethnicity as African American. Yeah, he was a trouble maker. But he did have a point. I wouldn't describe your race as "Ukrainian American," I'd call you white. Ukrainian American tells me where you live now and your heritage, where your ancestors came from, not your race. Using African American to describe race makes life confusing, because convention says that an "Italian American" means someone of Italian descent living in America, not a white or a black, shouldn't African American mean someone of African descent living in America, not a white or a black?

So my Moroccan friend who is not at all black can confuse the world and call himself African American, because, after all, he is, and my non-American black friends can be pissed off when they are called African American. Confusing and clumsy.

calbear93;842314053 said:

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Are their instances when racism isn't evil?

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No.

calbear93;842314053 said:

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Otherwise, stop trying to trivialize any form of racism by saying that some groups experience it more.

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I don't think I'm trivializing it at all.