OT: "Reverse Racism" in Berkeley?

20,570 Views | 154 Replies | Last: 11 yr ago by movielover
ducky23
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The Duke!;842314004 said:


But how on earth does Sterling exemplify this? That was a case of personal (not institutional) racism. The organization he owned hired plenty of black coaches, players, and executives.




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In the original lawsuit, Baylor (former Clippers GM) said that Sterling had a "vision of a Southern plantation-type structure" for the Clippers and accused the owner of a "pervasive and ongoing racist attitude" during long-ago contract negotiations with Danny Manning. The lawsuit also quoted Sterling as telling Manning's agent, "I'm offering you a lot of money for a poor black kid."

Baylor alleged Sterling said he wanted the Clippers to be "composed of 'poor black boys from the South' and a white head coach."

Baylor also claimed that his salary had been frozen at $350,000 a year since 2003 while "the Caucasian head coach was given a four-year, $22-million contract."
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I don't know, that sounds like institutional racism to me.

and yes, Baylor lost the lawsuit, but does anyone really believe now that Baylor's accusations weren't more or less accurate?

lets not even talk about his housing discrimination lawsuit.

so no, his racism was not contained just to his personal life.
Phantomfan
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ducky23;842313650 said:

Really?

Whenever something actually "racist" happens, people on this board go on these rants about how society is just too PC.

Now some white kid gets scared ordering a pie from Nations and we all feel so sorry for the poor white kid.

I know you mean well, but welcome to our world. Where I grew up, the few black kids in the area would experience something like that every day. One of my close friends (who happened to drive a somewhat nice car) would get pulled over by the cops on a weekly basis. I know he's not lying, because I got pulled over with him a minimum of three times.


Quote:

Now some white kid gets scared ordering a pie from Nations and we all feel so sorry for the poor white kid.

Every post between the OP and yours is the exact opposite of your claim.
movielover
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Dr. Dre reportedly ready to sell his music / electronic website for a cool $3.2 Billion to Apple ... I'm guessing he long ago passed through the reported institutional glass ceiling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/09/dr-dre-could-be-upping-apples-cool-factor-in-3-2-billion-deal-to-buy-beats/?tid=hp_mm

Reports are that this will be the largest acquisition by Apple, ever. More great news in the land of opportunity.
Phantomfan
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movielover;842314292 said:

Dr. Dre reportedly ready to sell his music / electronic website for a cool $3.2 Billion to Apple ... I'm guessing he long ago passed through the reported institutional glass ceiling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/09/dr-dre-could-be-upping-apples-cool-factor-in-3-2-billion-deal-to-buy-beats/?tid=hp_mm

Reports are that this will be the largest acquisition by Apple, ever. More great news in the land of opportunity.


Well, there you go.
calbear93
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blungld;842313987 said:

PC: one of the greatest cop out, puff pastry, non-subtantive expressions of all time.


It doesn't make it any less of a problem. Any form of censorship allows ignorance and hatred to fester in the shadows. I truly hate PC and people who attack others for inarticulate phrases or words instead of addressing the underlying issue or seeing the true intent of what was stated. People do use the PC accusation as a cop out to real discussion, but people who insist on PC also use it as a cop out to end real discussion as well.
tommie317
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movielover;842314292 said:

Dr. Dre reportedly ready to sell his music / electronic website for a cool $3.2 Billion to Apple ... I'm guessing he long ago passed through the reported institutional glass ceiling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/09/dr-dre-could-be-upping-apples-cool-factor-in-3-2-billion-deal-to-buy-beats/?tid=hp_mm

Reports are that this will be the largest acquisition by Apple, ever. More great news in the land of opportunity.


I guess Racism has finally been defeated.
calbear93
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tommie317;842314345 said:

I guess Racism has finally been defeated.


Racism will become extinct in this world when the human race becomes extinct.
movielover
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ducky23;842314264 said:

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In the original lawsuit, Baylor (former Clippers GM) said that Sterling had a "vision of a Southern plantation-type structure" for the Clippers ...
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I don't know, that sounds like institutional racism to me.

and yes, Baylor lost the lawsuit, but does anyone really believe now that Baylor's accusations weren't more or less accurate?

lets not even talk about his housing discrimination lawsuit.

so no, his racism was not contained just to his personal life.



Baylor was a great player, but an incompetent GM, and Sterling didn't want to spend money. Wonder why the Lakers never hired their own legendary alum? Besides, if Sterling was that horrific, stop cashing his checks, quit, and / or move elsewhere for another NBA job. Pretty simple.

Former player Bo Kimble was also whining about "racism" holding him back when he played for the Clippers. Funny, when he left the Clippers he had the same low statistics for the next team he played for. (Thank you, google.)

What's more interesting to me is that David Stern & Silver didn't do anything until they were forced into action. (It was TMZ that also edited out the comments about Israel treating black Jews "like dogs".)

Is Sterling proof that racism is still pervasive and all-consuming in America? Or does the swift and unanimous condemnation of his comments prove that it's significance has been dramatically reduced in American life? I would say it is the latter.

Truly significant issues in the minority communities like the choice to not get married; out of wedlock births; exploding gang membership; and minority-on-minority crime are far bigger. The consistent and across-the-board success of Americans of Nigerian, Ethiopian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Iranian, and other ethnic origins is proof.

Yes, Sterling and his wife lost a significant lawsuit in Los Angeles, good job by all involved. If there are more instances, go get em.
movielover
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calbear93;842314357 said:

Racism will become extinct in this world when the human race becomes extinct.


If black men would marry black women, many of these problems would be solved.

It is a statistical fact that married men make more money than single men. It is a fact that one household is cheaper than two. Put two incomes together, lower overall costs, create a little savings / nest egg, maybe buy a house ... there are no laws against these choices. Parents raising children is a better alternative than the streets, TV, or strangers raising children.

There is now a large industry out there that makes money on these "racial grievances".

Upper- and middle-income African Americans are following the same path as other successful groups in America. More African Americans own homes than citizens in many countries in wealthy western Europe.

What is interesting is that the black family was able to survive the horrible system of slavery, Jim Crow, the south, and more, but it wasn't able to survive government programs and the "War on Poverty".
StillNoStanfurdium
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movielover;842314382 said:

If black men would marry black women, many of these problems would be solved.

It is a statistical fact that married men make more money than single men. It is a fact that one household is cheaper than two. Put two incomes together, lower overall costs, create a little savings / nest egg, maybe buy a house ... there are no laws against these choices. Parents raising children is a better alternative than the streets, TV, or strangers raising children.

There is now a large industry out there that makes money on these "racial grievances".

Upper- and middle-income African Americans are following the same path as other successful groups in America. More African Americans own homes than citizens in many countries in wealthy western Europe.

What is interesting is that the black family was able to survive the horrible system of slavery, Jim Crow, the south, and more, but it wasn't able to survive government programs and the "War on Poverty".

You're a Cliven Bundy fan, aren't you?
blungld
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calbear93;842314344 said:

It doesn't make it any less of a problem. Any form of censorship allows ignorance and hatred to fester in the shadows. I truly hate PC and people who attack others for inarticulate phrases or words instead of addressing the underlying issue or seeing the true intent of what was stated. People do use the PC accusation as a cop out to real discussion, but people who insist on PC also use it as a cop out to end real discussion as well.


My point is that PC does not articulate a position. It's a blanket term that lumps everything one disagrees with into a neat package of "liberal, social, media, blah blah blah, anti-isms". It's unintelligent. It's an empty vessel posing as an opinion.

It's a cheap dismissive verbal hand wave rather than any kind of lucid point.
movielover
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StillNoStanfurdium;842314387 said:

You're a Cliven Bundy fan, aren't you?


I'm a fan of facts, history, common sense, senator Barbara Jordan (RIP), Ross Perot, Dr. Thomas Sowell and Dr. Walter Williams (both economic historians). Dr. Williams: "A statistic that one doesn't hear much about is that the poverty rate among black married families has been in the single digits for more than two decades, currently at 8 percent."

Let me guess, you're a fan of Noam Chomsky, Saul Alinsky, Jesse Jackson and (Native American) Elizabeth Warren?
bearister
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movielover;842314418 said:

I'm a fan of facts, history, common sense, senator Barbara Jordan (RIP), Ross Perot, Dr. Thomas Sowell and Dr. Walter Williams (both economic historians).

Let me guess, you're a fan of Noam Chomsky, Saul Alinsky, Jesse Jackson and (Native American) Elizabeth Warren?


I wonder what Thomas Sowell thinks about the fact that the conservative old white men who constantly direct me to read his columns would never let him join one of their country clubs? Those good old boys sure love Sowell and Clarence Thomas.
movielover
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bearister;842314424 said:

I wonder what Thomas Sowell thinks about the fact that the conservative old white men who constantly direct me to read his columns would never let him join one of their country clubs? Those good old boys sure love Sowell and Clarence Thomas.


They buy his books by the droves, so you assume that they wouldn't let him join their country clubs. These same conservative gentlemen have sons and daughters and grand children who date and marry African Americans, so I think you're stuck in 1955. Not them.

Indeed, it is the liberals who tarred and feathered Herman Cain, Senator Allen West, Clarence Thomas, and any other African American who dares leave the Progressive ideology. I thought you progressives appreciated "diversity"?
bearister
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movielover;842314428 said:

They buy his books by the droves, so you assume that they wouldn't let him join their country clubs. These same conservative gentlemen have sons and daughters and grand children who date and marry African Americans, so I think you're stuck in 1955. Not them.

Indeed, it is the liberals who tarred and feathered Herman Cain, Senator Allen West, Clarence Thomas, and any other African American who dares leave the Progressive ideology. I thought you progressives appreciated "diversity"?


With regard to Allen West:

"West's rhetoric won him both support and condemnation from differing groups along the American political spectrum. Members of the conservative movement viewed him as a "torch bearer" and "conservative icon," with Sarah Palin and Ted Nugent both suggesting him for vice president, and Glenn Beck supporting him for president. [Wikipedia]"

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

GivemTheAxe
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blungld;842313836 said:

If you self-identify as Italian American go for it. My point is I, as in me, think the hyphenated descriptions miss the point and are presumptuous, confusing, and clumsy. If I look at a stranger I have no idea of their nationality, so why use monickers that attempt to do so? All I can explicitly see are physical descriptions of which skin color is one. The designation African-American does make an implicit claim of near connection to Africa and pride in heritage. Does a fifth generation black American truly feel some connection to Africa or feel that their citizenship should be hyphenated? Until they've told you that why would one make that assumption?

I am second generation American, mother from Ukraine. No one would know that from looking at me. I am proud of my heritage and happy to talk about it if we get to know each other, but I was raised here and know nothing else. My nationality is American. My heritage is Ukrainian. I personally think the hyphenated self-identifying is BS. There is no country Ukraine-America.


Unfortunately not everyone is as enlightened as you.
America is the land of immigrants and those immigrants and their descendants have often been proud of their roots and have often self identified using a hyphenated reference.

In addition many "native born" Americans have often looked down on those same immigrants and have applied the same hyphenated names as an ethnic slur. (yes it still happens today).

Many years ago during WWI and WWII some politicians sought to eliminate the use of "hyphenated American" names. But here we are still using them. IMO it is because immigration never stops.

As for the fact that no one can tell that you are of Ukranuan origins, it is largely because you probably do not have any physical characteristics that mark you out ad "foreign born". (foreign born even though your family might have been in the US for generations). Blacks, Latinos, Asian, Pacific islanders, East Indians and Native American and Eskimos (foreign born indeed).

Therefore from outward apprearances you fit into the traditional power structure of Northern European.
No one knows your background unless you disclose it.
However if you did have the distinguishing characteristics you would be so classified as foreign born whether you wanted or not.

So don't blame those people for the way they have been singled out all of their lives.

I am a swarthy Latino and could pass for Pakistani or Wast Indian. All of my life I have stood out from the "ordinary" Americans and have been asked where are you from.
Where I was born. where my people were from. Even though I was born in the US and my mother was born in the US.
So to make it difficult for the questioner. I always answer "California".
SanseiBear
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GivemTheAxe;842314474 said:

I am a swarthy Latino and could pass for Pakistani or West Indian. All of my life I have stood out from the "ordinary" Americans and have been asked where are you from.
Where I was born. where my people were from. Even though I was born in the US and my mother was born in the US.
So to make it difficult for the questioner. I always answer "California".


That generally causes the questioner to change subject and start talking about visiting our beautiful state. :acclaim:
bearister
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GivemTheAxe;842314474 said:

............So to make it difficult for the questioner. I always answer "California".


Suggested revision to your standard answer:

"California, you know, that land my ancestors owned."
blungld
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bearister;842314529 said:

Suggested revision to your standard answer:

"California, you know, that land my ancestors owned."


How about native-Californian-American?
movielover
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GivemTheAxe;842314474 said:

"...Many years ago during WWI and WWII some politicians sought to eliminate the use of "hyphenated American" names. But here we are still using them. IMO it is because immigration never stops....

Therefore from outward apprearances you fit into the traditional power structure of Northern European. ..."



I believe it was Jessie Jackson who brought back the hyphen. As far as appearances of traditional power, those would also have to include Japanese- and Jewish-Americans. If you want to update that to contemporary power, well, just take a walk through Silicon Valley, Orange County, and LA's Westside for starters.

But yes, there are vestiges of racial favoritism. Maybe that's why the alleged Bear assailant today was immediately identified (he is black), but the proven assailant of Fabiano Hale (who happened to be white), wasn't.
going4roses
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movielover;842314661 said:

I believe it was Jessie Jackson who brought back the hyphen. As far as appearances of traditional power, those would also have to include Japanese- and Jewish-Americans. If you want to update that to contemporary power, well, just take a walk through Silicon Valley, Orange County, and LA's Westside for starters.

But yes, there are vestiges of racial favoritism. Maybe that's why the alleged Bear assailant today was immediately identified (he is black), but the proven assailant of Fabiano Hale (who happened to be white), wasn't.


incorrect...
The Duke!
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ducky23;842314264 said:

----
In the original lawsuit, Baylor (former Clippers GM) said that Sterling had a “vision of a Southern plantation-type structure” for the Clippers and accused the owner of a “pervasive and ongoing racist attitude” during long-ago contract negotiations with Danny Manning. The lawsuit also quoted Sterling as telling Manning's agent, “I’m offering you a lot of money for a poor black kid.”

Baylor alleged Sterling said he wanted the Clippers to be “composed of ‘poor black boys from the South’ and a white head coach.”

Baylor also claimed that his salary had been frozen at $350,000 a year since 2003 while “the Caucasian head coach was given a four-year, $22-million contract.”
----
I don't know, that sounds like institutional racism to me.

and yes, Baylor lost the lawsuit, but does anyone really believe now that Baylor's accusations weren't more or less accurate?

lets not even talk about his housing discrimination lawsuit.

so no, his racism was not contained just to his personal life.


Sterling is a racist. That much is clear. But the Clippers are not racist. They have been run by people of different races, including black people like Baylor and Rivers. During his lawsuit, it was shown that Baylor made all major basketball decisions. Sterling was just the guy signing the checks.

Baylor's salary was frozen because he was the worst GM in the history of the NBA, hands-down. If Sterling's racism had been institutionalized, Baylor would have surely been fired much earlier. He was the worst GM in professional sports. That is why he was eventually fired. And that is why he lost his lawsuit.

During the era of Sterling's ownership, the Clippers (as an institution) have made a lot of black people incredibly rich -- players, coaches, and executives. His abhorrent personal views do not change this simple fact. The team is led by a black head coach, a black senior VP of basketball operations, a black associate head coach, black assistant coaches, a black captain, and is composed of all but two black players. All of these people are paid very well.

The fact that Elgin Baylor remained employed for so long despite doing such a terrible job shows that the institution was not racist. $350k/year for drafting Miles, Jaric, Karolev, and Olawakandi is WAY TOO MUCH. Honestly, why on earth would any owner give that guy a raise?

As soon as an institution actually got involved, they kicked Sterling to the curb.
movielover
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The Duke!;842314705 said:

Sterling is a racist. That much is clear. But the Clippers are not racist. ...The team is led by a black head coach, a black senior VP of basketball operations, a black associate head coach, black assistant coaches, a black captain, and is composed of all but two black players...

As soon as an institution actually got involved, they kicked Sterling to the curb.



The lower- and mid-level employees come from all ethnicities. The upper management is very white, almost exclusively white, if I recall. A friend said their may be a strong Jewish component. The VP of Ops could be seen as a token black upper management position.

I think it is possible for this to be a more complex situation as "racist" or "not", more like saving plum jobs for your friends and colleagues.

The NBA and Stern had at least a decade to respond, and they didn't. Ironically, though I am not one for quotas, but after the league being led (and well) by one man for maybe 20-30 years, a league that is a trailblazer and maybe 70 percent African American got another white (Jewish?) Commish.
The Duke!
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movielover;842314716 said:

The lower- and mid-level employees come from all ethnicities. The upper management is very white, almost exclusively white, if I recall. A friend said their may be a strong Jewish component. The VP of Ops could be seen as a token black upper management position.

I think it is possible for this to be a more complex situation as "racist" or "not", more like saving plum jobs for your friends and colleagues.

The NBA and Stern had at least a decade to respond, and they didn't. Ironically, though I am not one for quotas, but after the league being led (and well) by one man for maybe 20-30 years, a league that is a trailblazer and maybe 70 percent African American got another white (Jewish?) Commish.


Their VP of Basketball Operations is basically their general manager. He makes the trades and selects the free agents. He is black. Sterling hired him.

Sterling is a racist and a creep. But the organization is not racist. This was not a case of institutionalized racism.
movielover
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The NBA is looking at their lack of diversity in upper management positions.
GivemTheAxe
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calbear93;842314357 said:

Racism will become extinct in this world when the human race becomes extinct.


Disagree.
Racism as we know it today is a relatively modern phenomenon: probably beginning around 1500 AD but not really getting set until between 1600-1700.

Of course there was a recognition of differences between races; but there were greater ethnic and cultural distinctions among people. These ethnic and cultural distinctions were usually the defining characteristics of people NOT race.

Likewise each of these societies had slaves and regularly looked down on their slaves. But slavery was not an attribute of race. A slave could be someone from any race. And slavery was no a "permanent" attribute. Children and grandchildren of slaves could become active members of the ruling class over time.

Arab and Turk slave traders were just as eager to capture European Christians and Russians, Slavs and Middle Eastern (all Caucasians) for slaves as to capture African Slaves. In fact the European slaves were preferred since they could be held for higher ransoms.

The Viking raiders also focused mostly on capturing European, Russian, Slavs to be their slaves.

The classical societies (Greek, Roman, Persian) were equal opportunity conquerors of Northern European, Southern European, African, Middle Eastern, and African.
[Note: Roman masters (I) prized African Slaves as musicians and teachers and other intellectual pursuits and (ii) thought that Northern Europeans were not good for intellectual pursuits but good only for hard manual labor and soldiers.]

The Egyptians likewise captured as slaves from Ethiopia but also captured slaves from the North African Coast and from the Middle East.

In each of these societies the slaves were looked down upon as being beneath the ruling classes. But similarly the ruling classes looked down on everyone who was not a member of the ruling class and often looked down on other ethnic groups.

Everything changed only as fewer and fewer Northern Europeans became slaves and as slavery came to mean African Slaves.
As a result the efforts to justify slavery came to be based upon the supposed inferiority of Africans to Northern Europeans. Likewise the supposed superiority of Northern Europeans justified elimination of Native Americans, Native Polynesians and East Indians and Asians.

Race became a very handy justification for genocide and looting the societies discovered.

Hopefully with modern education and with racial diversity we will return to looking down on people only because of their ethnic and cultural differences. :sarc:
Bobodeluxe
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Real American speaks up for Real Americans.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Town-s-white-police-official-calls-Obama-N-word-5480252.php

Really a small fry, but I have heard the same sort of thing from many mover-and- shaker types forever.
bearister
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Bobodeluxe;842316641 said:

Real American speaks up for Real Americans.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Town-s-white-police-official-calls-Obama-N-word-5480252.php

Really a small fry, but I have heard the same sort of thing from many mover-and- shaker types forever.


"This POTUS is just simply not OUR kind of people."
movielover
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When a President racks up $7 Trillion in new debt in 5 years; employment and economy still sputters; black unemployment reaches 14%; NSA snoops on everyone; the IRS is used as a weapon; he doesn't enforce the Voting Rights Act (see Black Panther Party); and the ACA has added new costs while lowering the quality of health care ... and keeps on delevering bad news month after month... it don't matter what color or ethnicity or sexual persuasion the POTUS is. That's why his numbers are in the toilet.

BTW, slavery is still rampant in Africa... often Muslim on Christian. Millions.
tommie317
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movielover;842316693 said:

When a President racks up $7 Trillion in new debt in 5 years; employment and economy still sputters; black unemployment reaches 14%; NSA snoops on everyone; the IRS is used as a weapon; he doesn't enforce the Voting Rights Act (see Black Panther Party); and the ACA has added new costs while lowering the quality of health care ... and keeps on delevering bad news month after month... it don't matter what color or ethnicity or sexual persuasion the POTUS is. That's why his numbers are in the toilet.

BTW, slavery is still rampant in Africa... often Muslim on Christian. Millions.


Economy is great. I'm sorry it sucks for you.
bearister
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movielover;842316693 said:

When a President racks up $7 Trillion in new debt in 5 years; employment and economy still sputters; black unemployment reaches 14%; NSA snoops on everyone; the IRS is used as a weapon; he doesn't enforce the Voting Rights Act (see Black Panther Party); and the ACA has added new costs while lowering the quality of health care ... and keeps on delevering bad news month after month... it don't matter what color or ethnicity or sexual persuasion the POTUS is. That's why his numbers are in the toilet.

BTW, slavery is still rampant in Africa... often Muslim on Christian. Millions.


What is your opinion of the president that initiated a pretextual war in Iraq that resulted in the unnecessary death and physical and psychological maiming of thousands and at a cost of over a trillion dollars?
NYCGOBEARS
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bearister;842316729 said:

What is your opinion of the president that initiated a pretextual war in Iraq that resulted in the unnecessary death and physical and psychological maiming of thousands and at a cost of over a trillion dollars?

If we guess correctly, do we get a prize?
bearister
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NYCGOBEARS;842316740 said:

If we guess correctly, do we get a prize?


Yes, but I get the prize for anticipating the response: "You're not going to drudge up that ancient history again are you?"
ducky23
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bearister;842316729 said:

What is your opinion of the president that initiated a pretextual war in Iraq that resulted in the unnecessary death and physical and psychological maiming of thousands and at a cost of over a trillion dollars?


That's all a myth. Movie lover only operates on facts.
OdontoBear66
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bearister;842316729 said:

What is your opinion of the president that initiated a pretextual war in Iraq that resulted in the unnecessary death and physical and psychological maiming of thousands and at a cost of over a trillion dollars?


Thought it was a stupid decision at the time, and continue to think Iraq was a horrible mistake. But what does that have to do with not liking the lack of performance of the current POTUS? I guess you assume if one does not like what the present POTUS is doing, one must like and defend the policies of his predecessor? My point, there is still a rapidly disappearing middle hopefully.
 
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