I think we can all agree that Carter Page is a textbook example of the kind of "best people" that Trump associates himself with.

Trump already ruins Super Bowl by reminding us he is president:

"The official White House statement from the President praises U.S. service members, saying, "We owe these heroes the greatest respect for defending our liberty and our American way of life.... We hold them in our hearts and thank them for our freedom as we proudly stand for the National Anthem."

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Trump already ruins Super Bowl by reminding us he is president:

"The official White House statement from the President praises U.S. service members, saying, "We owe these heroes the greatest respect for defending our liberty and our American way of life.... We hold them in our hearts and thank them for our freedom as we proudly stand for the National Anthem."

---

That form of protest is not something I would normally engage in, but in light of the events of the past few days, I hope everyone on the field takes a knee.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
-Samuel Johnson

The following is just a part of what looks to me like the most extraordinarily factual article I've come in contact with in this debate; and I would love to see what #3oski (or whatever his name is) has to say about it:

• In the early 1990's, American Carter Page lived in and attended school in Moscow.
• In 1998, Page worked for Eurasia Group. He only spent three months there. Its founder said that because of Page's vehemently pro-Kremlin views, "he wasn't a good fit" for he firm.
• From 2004-2007, Carter Page again lived and worked in Moscow.
• While living in Moscow he worked on transactions, worth billions, for the Russian state-owned Gazprom and RAO UES.
• A "June 9, 2008, confidential cable to the State Department from the U.S. Embassy in Turkmenistandetails how Page and his then-partner James Richard had visited the embassy in Ashgabat three days earlier while attending an oil conference. The cable said the pair had met with the deputy prime minister for oil and were looking to assemble an investment fund of $1 billion. The cable noted that the pair had offered to invest in state companies to make them 'substantially more powerful than they currently are.'"
• According to the June 9, 2008 cable, Page had described his work in Moscow as having helped take Russia's state-owned oil company, Gazprom, from a normal state oil company to "super major status."
• When Page returned to the U.S., he set up office in New York city next to Trump tower. His firm was a private equity business, Global Energy Capital LLC and his parter was a wealthy former Gazprom (the Russian state-owned oil company) manager Sergi Yatsenko. Their work consisted of connecting investors with deals in Russia.
• In 2013, Carter Page came under U.S. intelligence radar because of his contacts with a then suspected ring of Russian agents in New York.
• Carter Page "met with one of three Russians who were eventually charged with being undeclared officers with Russia's foreign intelligence service, known as the S.V.R. The F.B.I. interviewed Mr. Page in 2013 as part of an investigation into the spy ring."
• "According to the court documents filed in 2015, the F.B.I. secretly recorded Mr. Podobnyy and another Russian operative named Igor Sporyshev discussing efforts to recruit Mr. Page, who was then working in New York as a consultant."

• "In a transcript of the conversation included in the court documents, Mr. Podobnyy tells his Russian colleague that Mr. Page frequently flies to Moscow and is interested in earning large sums of money. Mr. Page was apparently interested in striking a deal with Gazprom, the Russian state-run oil firm, according to the transcript. Mr. Podobnyy called Mr. Page an 'idiot' but said he was enthusiastic."

• In fact, Podobnyy was caught on a wiretap discussing Page:

Quote:

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He writes to me in Russian [to] practice the language. He flies to Moscow more often than I do. He got hooked on Gazprom thinking that if they have a project, he could be rise up. Maybe he can. I don't know, but it's obvious that he wants to learn lots of money. ...
... I will feed him empty promises. ... You promise a favor for a favor. You get the documents from him and tell him to go **** himself.

---

• Mr. Podobnyy promised through his contacts with Russian trade officials to steer contracts to Mr. Page.
• The FBI interviewed Carter Page about his contacts with these Russian spies. He admitted to giving the Russians documents regarding the U.S. Energy sector, but denied that he gave them anything that was classified or unable to be obtained on their own. Page denied knowing he was helping Russian agents.
• The Russian agents were charged, but two fled the country before being arrested. One was convicted and served several years in jail.
• In 2013, Page submitted a book manuscript to get published. On August 25, 2013, he sent a letter to the publisher during a dispute over edits boasting that "[o]ver the past half year, I have had the privilege to serve as an informal advisor to the staff of the Kremlin in preparation for their Presidency of the G-20 Summit next month, where energy issues will be prominent on the agenda."
• In 2014 and 2015, in articles for an online journal called Global Policy, Carter Page praised Russia and criticized American policy.
• In 2014, Page wrote an article lauding Igor Sechin a former KGB spy and Russia's second most powerful official for his "great accomplishments." He argued that Sechin was wronged by and unfairly punished and sanctioned by the U.S.
• Carter Page, for example, wrote that the war in Ukraine was "precipitated by U.S. meddling."
• In 2015, Page wrote an article criticizing the U.S. of mistreating Russia. He essentially accused the U.S. of being a slaveholder and Russia being its slave. He referenced the Kanye West song "New Slaves," a meditation on race and wealth, to accuse the U.S. national security strategy of being "closely parallel an 1850 publication that offered guidance to slaveholders on how to produce the "ideal slave."
• Page wrote,

Quote:

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The irony of the Obama Administration is that while the U.S. head of state has broken down discriminatory barriers as the first black President, establishment figures from the Bush Administration who still remain in office have contributed to the unfair series of events in Ukraine, Russia and other sovereign states. In particular, former Dick Cheney aide and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland helped lead the charge with misguided and provocative actions.

---

• Page further wrote, "From U.S. policies toward Russia to Iran to China, sanctimonious expressions of moral superiority stand at the root of many problems seen worldwide today."

Quote:

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Numerous quotes from the February 2015 [U.S.] National Security Strategy closely parallel an 1850 publication that offered guidance to slaveholders on how to produce the "ideal slave":
[ol]

Maintain strict discipline and unconditional submission. "We will continue to impose significant costs on Russia through sanctions."

Create a sense of personal inferiority, so that slaves 'know their place.' "America's growing economic strength is the foundation of our national security and a critical source of our influence abroad... We are now the world leader in oil and gas production. We continue to set the pace for science, technology, and innovation in the global economy."

Instill fear. - "We will deter Russian aggression, remain alert to its strategic capabilities, and help our allies and partners resist Russian coercion over the long term, if necessary."

Teach servants to take interest in their master's enterprise. "At the same time, we will keep the door open to greater collaboration with Russia in areas of common interests, should it choose a different path."

Deprive access to education and recreation, to ensure that slaves remain uneducated, helpless and dependent. "Targeted economic sanctions will remain an effective tool for imposing costs on irresponsible actors."

[/ol]New Slaves, Global Edition: Russia, Iran and the Segregation of the World Economy Carter Page- 10th February 2015

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• Page slammed the U.S. and said that "Russia, Iran, China and a range of emerging powers have suffered from the same kind of condescending mistreatment [by the U.S.] that football team bullies once delivered to Boucher and have begun to respond in kind."
• Page also criticized the U.S. and E.U. of having "biased philosophies and draconian tactics."
• In March of 2016, Carter Page was named the Trump campaign's Foreign Policy advisor.
• In a July 14, 2016 Page wrote an email to Trump aide J.D. Gordon and others, saying "As for the Ukraine amendment, excellent work." The Trump campaign changed the traditional Republican Party Platform policy on Ukraine to take a weaker position on arming the U.S. ally against Russian aggression.

• In July of 2016, Carter Page traveled to Russia to give a speech at the New Economic School in Moscow. It was this trip that raised the eyebrows of U.S. intelligence officials.
• Carter Page's speech in Moscow was played on Russian propaganda state-owned TV, RT.
• On the foreign soil of an U.S. adversary, and played on Russian propaganda T.V., Carter Page criticized the United States.
• Carter Page said, "Washington and other Western capitals have impeded potential progress through their often hypocritical focus on ideas such as democratization, inequality, corruption and regime change," Mr. Page said.
• Quoting Vladimir Putin, Carter Page said that Russia does not meddle in the political affairs of others unlike the United States. Page said, "We never meddle in the internal political affairs of other countries. Unlike the USA."
• U.S. intelligence officials said that Carter Page sounded like he was reading Putin's talking points.
• Page first denied and then later acknowledged meeting some Russian officials during the trip, including Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich, as well as an executive for the Russian oil giant Rosneft that has had close ties to Putin.
• Page wrote back to Trump campaign that Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich "expressed strong support for Mr. Trump and a desire to work together."

• Page also wrote an email to two Trump aides saying he'd received "some incredible insights and outreach [...] from a few Russian legislators and senior members of the Presidential administration here."

This is just some of the publicly available information on Carter Page and his Russian connections. So, it is completely false that the FBI relied solely on the Steele Dossier for their eyebrows being raised by Carter Page's trip to Moscow. If you travel to Moscow and go on Russian propaganda T.V. criticizing the U.S. and meet with Russian officials, you are probably going to get surveilled by the U.S. U.S. intelligence would be especially concerned because of the implications of a suspected Russian agent infiltrating a U.S. Presidential campaign.
The question then becomes wouldn't a Presidential candidate be glad that U.S. intelligence is flagging a potential Russian agent trying to infiltrate your campaign? Wouldn't you be glad that the U.S. intelligence has an eye on this and would be trying to stop this?
Let's be clear about the Republican memo, Republicans are attacking our own FBI and trying to ruining the FBI's credibility over alleged FISA abuses against a long suspected Russian agent.

What's with Turkish Airlines sponsoring the Super Bowl. Does Erdogan have a piece of this?

Was wondering the same thing. Seems odd

mikecohen said:

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This is just some of the publicly available information on Carter Page and his Russian connections. So, it is completely false that the FBI relied solely on the Steele Dossier for their eyebrows being raised by Carter Page's trip to Moscow. If you travel to Moscow and go on Russian propaganda T.V. criticizing the U.S. and meet with Russian officials, you are probably going to get surveilled by the U.S. U.S. intelligence would be especially concerned because of the implications of a suspected Russian agent infiltrating a U.S. Presidential campaign.
The question then becomes wouldn't a Presidential candidate be glad that U.S. intelligence is flagging a potential Russian agent trying to infiltrate your campaign? Wouldn't you be glad that the U.S. intelligence has an eye on this and would be trying to stop this?
Let's be clear about the Republican memo, Republicans are attacking our own FBI and trying to ruining the FBI's credibility over alleged FISA abuses against a long suspected Russian agent.

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This is also my understanding. The FBI was already interested in Page before the Steele Dossier came to them. They were interested because it confirmed what they already suspected.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Sad and sobering to look at the California pols involved in the Russian probe. Nunes is in a safe seat, but has zero chance of making it into the top two in any CA statewide election. Not going to go from the House to GOP VP nominee in 2020 or 2024.

McCarthy's in an even safer seat and possibly replaces Ryan as the top ranked 'Pub in the House (Minority Leader or Speaker) in 2019. Still zero chance he'd ever become a Senator or Governor.

Issa was intimately involved in Prop 209 and the Davis recall. Despite that and his personal wealth, lost in the 1998 GOP Senate primary and got clowned when Arnold entered the Governor race following the recall. After leading a bunch of dubious investigations, barely got re-elected in 2016 and bailed on 2018 since he's dead man walking. For comparison, Jason Chaffetz (grew up in Los Gatos) held similar House leadership positions to Issa and Nunes, but bailed on remaining in the House since he can still get elected statewide in UT and wisely left the circus on his own terms.

Dems would be wise to persuade Pelosi not to pursue reelection, but like the Clintons, she won't leave voluntarily and hurts the Dems.

Schiff is in a very safe seat, but not clear what his ceiling is. Might be able to become AG in CA, but not Governor or Senator.

So Nunes touted over the weekend that there are more memos coming out, what a moron. Oh now he suggested that Papadopoulos never met Trump personally, despite a picture was posted from Trump's IG account. Is this North Korean territory?

Trump is off his game. Calling Schiff "Little Adam." Sorry, there is only one Little and that is "Little Marco.." If he starts using "Crooked Comey", it's time he stepped down.

I'm afraid we will have to put up with this kind of repetition. He's exhausted his bully vocabulary - and anything more creative would fly over the heads of the majority of his base.

So get ready for more "Little So-and-so" and "Cryin' Wha's-his-name" and "Lyin' That-one" - it's the best he's got and the most they can understand.

Extensive focus group testing has taught Trump that his base responds better to simple epithets. In testing, Liddle Bob Corker performed much better than Diminutive Bob, and Lyin' Ted did much better than Prevaricatin' Ted.

But seriously, remember when Trump said he has all the best words?

Quote:

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"It is the level of stupidity that is incredible. I'm telling you, I used to use the word incompetent," Trump explained. "Now I just call them stupid. I went to an Ivy League school. I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words. I have the best, but there is no better word than stupid. Right? There is none, there is none. There's no, there's no, there's no word like that."
- Donald "I have the best words" Trump

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oski003 said:

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11) in order to obtain a warrant to spy on the Trump campaign, all of the conflicts of interest above were withheld from the FISA court an indefensible (and possibly illegal) lie of omission.

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Tick-tock, another oski003 talking point has been acknowledged by Nunes to be inaccurate.

In addition to the fact that the FISA warrant was unrelated to the Trump campaign as it only dealt with Carter Page, the republicans are now acknowledging that the FISA application disclosed in a footnote that the Steele dossier was political in origin.

From Politico:

Quote:

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"Neither the initial application in October 2016, nor any of the renewals, disclose or reference the role of the DNC, Clinton campaign, or any party/campaign in funding Steele's efforts, even though the political origins of the Steele dossier were then known to senior and FBI officials," the memo alleged.

But in an appearance on "Fox & Friends," Nunes was asked about reports over the weekend that the FBI application did refer to a political entity connected to the dossier. It is unclear precisely what language the application might have used.

Nunes conceded that a "footnote" to that effect was included in the application, while faulting the bureau for failing to provide more specifics.

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BearChemist said:

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So Nunes touted over the weekend that there are more memos coming out, what a moron. Oh now he suggested that Papadopoulos never met Trump personally, despite a picture was posted from Trump's IG account. Is this North Korean territory?

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More like Baghdad Bob

Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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11) in order to obtain a warrant to spy on the Trump campaign, all of the conflicts of interest above were withheld from the FISA court an indefensible (and possibly illegal) lie of omission.

---

Tick-tock, another oski003 talking point has been acknowledged by Nunes to be inaccurate.

In addition to the fact that the FISA warrant was unrelated to the Trump campaign as it only dealt with Carter Page, the republicans are now acknowledging that the FISA application disclosed in a footnote that the Steele dossier was political in origin.

From Politico:

Quote:

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"Neither the initial application in October 2016, nor any of the renewals, disclose or reference the role of the DNC, Clinton campaign, or any party/campaign in funding Steele's efforts, even though the political origins of the Steele dossier were then known to senior and FBI officials," the memo alleged.

But in an appearance on "Fox & Friends," Nunes was asked about reports over the weekend that the FBI application did refer to a political entity connected to the dossier. It is unclear precisely what language the application might have used.

Nunes conceded that a "footnote" to that effect was included in the application, while faulting the bureau for failing to provide more specifics.

---

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Well, to be fair to oski003, Nunes lied at least once on Fox&Friends about Trump never meet volunteer coffee boy Papadopoulos. So maybe he also lied about this footnote thing.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Caligula has spoken.




The Sun King

BearChemist said:

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Well, to be fair to oski003, Nunes lied at least once on Fox&Friends about Trump never meet volunteer coffee boy Papadopoulos. So maybe he also lied about this footnote thing.

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True. The house intelligence committee has just unanimously voted to release the Democrat response memo and the White House says they are entertaining the notion. I have a hard time believing the White House is dumb enough to release it but then again I wouldn't have expected Nunes and other Republicans to vote in favor of its release this week after rejecting it last week. Maybe they welcome an opportunity to keep this skirmish front and center since it serves as a distraction from other problems in the offing. That plus the Republicans deciding to live in a post-fact world means that they can just continue to ignore reality without paying a price with their base.

I expect if the Dem memo is released we will hear people like Oski003 call it partisan posturing without any basis in fact regardless of what it says.

quite the ideological partisan orgy here. What stage of grief are you in?

iwantwinners said:

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quite the ideological partisan orgy here. What stage of grief are you in?

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Is this what people do when they can't address and grapple with an argument

sycasey said:

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iwantwinners said:

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quite the ideological partisan orgy here. What stage of grief are you in?

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Is this what people do when they can't address and grapple with an argument

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It's either that or the Gish Gallop.

iwantwinners' chart source: a Subreddit called "The Donald": https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald





Are the topics and winners in "The Donald" not enough to fulfill your need for rigorous debate? Is your profile one of the ones with a frog icon or a different one?

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/2/6/16976176/carrier-president-trump-layoffs

GOP pouring $s into a House special election in PA. Reliably safe 'Pub district (+ 11), so absurd they have to spend there. Roy Moore was the only 'Pub who could lose in AL, but donors have to be terrified about Joe Arpaio in AZ and how much they'd have to spend on Trump in 2020.

Bizarre that Nunes ever became a Chair, but the rats are leaving the ship and they don't have a lot of good options. Michele Bachman thought she could be POTUS, but even she's passing on a MN Senate run.

Ryan's bragging about somebody taking home an extra $1.50/week. He and McConnell are desperate to hang onto power, but mega donors already got paid via tax cuts. If the GOP does get smoked in the midterms, think donors would rather take their chances with Pence. Way more pliable and predictable.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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iwantwinners' chart source: a Subreddit called "The Donald": https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald





Are the topics and winners in "The Donald" not enough to fulfill your need for rigorous debate? Is your profile one of the ones with a frog icon or a different one?

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Does tRump think that is a boxer's defensive position? My fist would sledge hammer punch him right between those wittle paws.

bearister said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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iwantwinners' chart source: a Subreddit called "The Donald": https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald





Are the topics and winners in "The Donald" not enough to fulfill your need for rigorous debate? Is your profile one of the ones with a frog icon or a different one?

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Does tRump think that is a boxer's defensive position? My fist would sledge hammer punch him right between those wittle paws.

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You need help. All of those grieving, unable to cope with this emotional trauma, ought to join the bible thumping racists and nationalists who went ape sh*t over Obama in '08 -- in therapy.

Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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iwantwinners said:

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quite the ideological partisan orgy here. What stage of grief are you in?

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Is this what people do when they can't address and grapple with an argument

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It's either that or the Gish Gallop.

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Did you even read what that means? There was a thread on immigration where people arrived at a conclusion and worked backwards to apologize/justify it. Their best shot was sentimental feelings and emotions disguised as policy and moral arguments. "They're people too!"

sycasey said:

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iwantwinners said:

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quite the ideological partisan orgy here. What stage of grief are you in?

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Is this what people do when they can't address and grapple with an argument

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Not even objecting to the conclusions in this thread (though I haven't read them all), I'm laughing at the selective partisan outrage and hackery. The same ideological, non-principled outrage you see on MSM propaganda of all political stripes. It's not about what, why, or how, it's about whom is doing this. Is he on my team? No? I'm pissed. Yes? Let's ignore or spin it.

Soon enough the members of the tRump Crime Family will be perp walked through the Rose Garden in handcuffs and ankle chains wailing like banshees and soiling their designer underwear.

bearister said:

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Soon enough the members of the tRump Crime Family will be perp walked through the Rose Garden in handcuffs and ankle chains wailing like banshees and soiling their designer underwear.

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You don't need to brag to the others who may still be in ANGER or DEPRESSION that you're in the TESTING phase, one step shy of ACCEPTANCE

iwantwinners said:

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bearister said:

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Soon enough the members of the tRump Crime Family will be perp walked through the Rose Garden in handcuffs and ankle chains wailing like banshees and soiling their designer underwear.

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You don't need to brag to the others who may still be in ANGER or DEPRESSION that you're in the TESTING phase, one step shy of ACCEPTANCE

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Just curious: Do you really not see the insanity, the essentially constant lies, the dangerous buffoonery, the striving for authoritarianism, the scapegoating, the racism, the inability to deal with reason, etc., etc., etc., etc.?; and do you really think that all politicians are that bad? Or maybe you don't care about any of those things.

mikecohen said:

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iwantwinners said:

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bearister said:

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Soon enough the members of the tRump Crime Family will be perp walked through the Rose Garden in handcuffs and ankle chains wailing like banshees and soiling their designer underwear.

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You don't need to brag to the others who may still be in ANGER or DEPRESSION that you're in the TESTING phase, one step shy of ACCEPTANCE

---

Just curious: Do you really not see the insanity, the essentially constant lies, the dangerous buffoonery, the striving for authoritarianism, the scapegoating, the racism, the inability to deal with reason, etc., etc., etc., etc.?; and do you really think that all politicians are that bad? Or maybe you don't care about any of those things.

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Of course, I see it. The outrage is not credible, however, it is partisan. The outrage isn't principled, or else Obama would have been denounced given his foreign policy and civil rights record.

I'm not a Republican, I've never voted for one in my life. I have many grievances regarding the Republican party's ideology, politics, and rhetoric. There are about two or three Republicans that I'm aware of that I'd vote for public office.

Ultimately the president is inconsequential (relatively), and while American voters are notoriously fickle and often vote based on character as much as politics, I do the opposite. I'm not voting for Reverand. I'm voting for a public officer whose priorities and politics align with mine more than others. I view "Shillary" and "dRump" moral failings as unideal and embarrassing -- FOR THEM. I don't think Hillary is a bad candidate just because she's a political climber and pragmatist, will believe in anything that suits the ascendance of her career, feigns interest in causes and people, and lies almost compulsively if you're a liberal who aligns with her politics. Same goes for Trump. I think his vulgarity and lack of "presidential-ness" is of minor importance relative to his political goals as a president. We're not voting for these people to be godfather to our children, or marry our daughters and sons.

Hope this helps you understand my position better. I don't disagree with all the criticism of Trump here or elsewhere. But I don't find the outrage or disapproval of it credible at all. The rhetoric gives it away. It's so obviously an expression of a stage of grief, it's very infantile and hypocritical. Anger, embarrassment, shock, etc -- and the inability to cope with it is what is both amusing and sad.

iwantwinners said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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iwantwinners said:

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quite the ideological partisan orgy here. What stage of grief are you in?

---

Is this what people do when they can't address and grapple with an argument

---

It's either that or the Gish Gallop.

---

Did you even read what that means? There was a thread on immigration where people arrived at a conclusion and worked backwards to apologize/justify it. Their best shot was sentimental feelings and emotions disguised as policy and moral arguments. "They're people too!"

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I do know what it means and your response is quite a hysterical non-seqitur. Look at oski003's multi point post as a recent example. The falsehoods are piled on top of each other that it becomes a chore to set the record straight. I stopped reading your lengthy scribes on immigration, but from what I saw they were similar.

I'm sorry that you lost your job to an undocumented immigrant but that doesn't mean we have to listen to you spewing your emotional garbage here every night after you get home from the bar.

Woody Allen made fun of leaders like tRump in this scene from the movie Bananas. Treason if you didn't clap during the State of the Union Address? A military parade? It makes you wonder what the progression is.