This is called 'spin'. Neither ideology holds the moral high ground unless you strawman one and steelman the other, as you do incessantly.blungld said:Yep, the GOP win at all cost as opposed to govern by the will of the people is antithetical to the Constitution and the principles of this country.dajo9 said:
This article by Krugman is a great article and something I completely agree with. It discusses the threat to our Republic that is Trumpism. It doesn't even get into the fact that the right wing Supreme Court (a 5-4 conservative majority established with 2 conservative justices appointed by a President who lost the popular vote and does not have the support of the people, and in particular 1 seat that was denied to a President who won the popular vote by a Senate majority that is inherently not based on popular support) is likely to solidify Republican gerrymandering, Republican executive disregard for a Democratic Congress, and shaping the Census in such a way that establishes more funding and representation for Republican communities. I've discussed in other threads how the FBI has already been purged of leadership that will challenge Trump and how the Attorney General is currently a lawyer for the President and not the country.
The Constitution builds in enormous protections for the minority. This only works when parties support the Constitution over partisanship. The Republican Party stopped doing that and now is working on entrenching permanent minority rule.
Our Republic is on the brink.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/opinion/trump-republican-party.html
It's sad to see intelligent conservatives on this board be okay with this and think that Liberals being dismayed by this corruption is simply being a sore loser or whining rather than wanting to protect America. They are so blinded by getting the policy they want that how it is achieved means nothing. Don't make a winning argument, just win even if that is by fear, lies, and political tricks.
They are unwilling to accept that living in a Democracy (Republic) means you don't always get what you want, but they think that abortion, homosexuals, getting rich, etc is so darn important that who cares about what is right even as they hold up righteousness as their justification for their win at all cost mentality.
And this right wing culture has gone so far that they laugh and take pleasure in ill gotten gains. They don't listen to the opposition or try and compromise or as I said make the winning argument, just actually laugh at the "losers" when they cheat and get away with it. It is sick.
It's exactly the mentality of USC/SEC that would gladly cheat to win the national championship. Who cares if it is later relinquished, they can't take away that we won the game. WooHoo! If you ain't cheating you ain't trying. I think these same people would be okay with Cal cheating to get to a Rose Bowl. It makes me so disgusted because that is exactly why I am a Cal fan, to try and win by doing it the right way.
White House has settled in
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Here is one of the main things that I can't seem to understand about the Trump supporters. Isn't the country more important any one person or president? So maybe you think Democrats are not correct on certain policies and maybe you think they are too alarmed by Trump, but does it not give you pause that so many people who you know in your heart of hearts are coming to a different conclusion? They are sounding an alarm. I mean these are not stupid people. And these are people who you know really really care about the country and whose guiding principles are things like fairness, justice, and freedom.concordtom said:
If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention. You can laugh all you like, but were they laughing in Germany in 1945 when they woke up to the reality of what they created?
Again, you may think they go overboard with the "social justice" or you may disagree with the application of their principles, but you can't sincerely believe that their values are not driven by a sense of justice. They are not the type of people who make stuff up. Or cheat. Or believe in exercise of corrupt power. So if these type of people are screaming about the republic being at risk, even if you disagree with their policies and assessment, wouldn't it be smart to listen? Might this be a canary in a coal mine? Maybe your set of values and the way you conduct yourself in the world isn't as sensitive to the things they are seeing?
A dog can smell things you can't and warn you of things you don't perceive, maybe the Liberals are cuing you to things that you should consider and respect EVEN if you disagree?
Isn't the smart analysis to err on the side of caution when it comes to world peace and destroying the institutions and principles of the nation? You can see for yourself that Trump is pushing the envelope, you know he lies, you know there are things revealed the last two years that are unethical at best, isn't it way better to be overly cautious given the stakes then to find out three years from now that the Liberals were right?
We are warning you now that the Constitution and Bill of Rights is under assault and that we are on a path to no term limits and some form of authoritarian oligarchy with the prosecution of political/media enemies. Isn't that worth erring on the side of caution against and supporting efforts of investigation and oversight just to be sure?
Stop strawmanning.
Do you really think there is some unabashed love-fest with everything Trump among Republicans? The republican congress hates Trump. Why wouldn't they? They're sitting around in 2015, completely bought and sold, and then saw a reckless, unqualified man rise to the top saying literally anything he wanted, often in the cringiest of ways, while amassing huge support. But they're not going to cannibalize their own unless there it is politically expedient to do so, obviously.
Republican constituents plug their nose and take the good with the bad with Trump.
It's like you're arguing against a segment of Republicans that shill for Trump (Hannity types) in clearly partisan ways. What do you want them to say/do that's rational and will appease you?
I don't hear any coming out saying Trump is a bastion of morality and character. Partisans will obfuscate to protect their ideological allies. This stuff pre-dates Trump.
Do you really think there is some unabashed love-fest with everything Trump among Republicans? The republican congress hates Trump. Why wouldn't they? They're sitting around in 2015, completely bought and sold, and then saw a reckless, unqualified man rise to the top saying literally anything he wanted, often in the cringiest of ways, while amassing huge support. But they're not going to cannibalize their own unless there it is politically expedient to do so, obviously.
Republican constituents plug their nose and take the good with the bad with Trump.
It's like you're arguing against a segment of Republicans that shill for Trump (Hannity types) in clearly partisan ways. What do you want them to say/do that's rational and will appease you?
I don't hear any coming out saying Trump is a bastion of morality and character. Partisans will obfuscate to protect their ideological allies. This stuff pre-dates Trump.
I thought that might be the case, but the fact I couldn't tell might be a clue to you. Still some valid things to consider in what I wrote.GBear4Life said:
Relax, guy. It was tongue-and-cheek.
But you are right, I am not relaxed. I have never been not relaxed about our country before. That might be another clue or something for you to consider.
I don't mean to be glib or patronizing to the struggles of others, but the past two years have given me empathy and some sense of what it feels like to be trapped under a regime. The daily lies. The power grab. The corruption. The unyielding loyalty to party. The intolerance and attacks on the people. It has changed my whole perception of home and outlook on life. What we are witnessing is pretty dark. I don't know how this doesn't effect you. I long for the day when I once again don't feel a need to monitor the WH and not feel under assault by my own government.
How about this for a start:GBear4Life said:
It's like you're arguing against a segment of Republicans that shill for Trump (Hannity types) in clearly partisan ways. What do you want them to say/do that's rational and will appease you?
1) Mr. President the things in the Mueller report are unacceptable for a sitting president of the United States and we need you to provide an explanation to us the American people under oath.
2) We ask you to not stonewall the Congress in their Constitutional duty of oversight as they look into the things outlined in the Mueller report.
3) Please stop demeaning the office through your use of twitter and ceaseless personal attacks of political opponents.
4) Please govern for all Americans and look for bi-partisan solutions.
5) Release your personal and corporate tax returns as proof that your financial interests align with the country's and that you are not compromised.
If there is not just a "segment" of Republicans shilling for Trump, then we should be hearing this from the man on the street and from GOP members of Congress. The above requests are totally sane and legitimate.
*** are you talking about?blungld said:
I don't mean to be glib or patronizing to the struggles of others, but the past two years have given me empathy and some sense of what it feels like to be trapped under a regime.
Who is 'trapped'? And why? And how is this unique to Trump's presidency? Trump has been an impotent president.
In all sincerity, this is why the calls of 'virtue signaling' aren't hyperbole: moralizing is employed to assert there is additional 'suffering' unique to one man holding office. I don't believe for a second that people's concerns lie with the phantom victimization of Americans.
What would those 5 reasonable points do to alleviate the "struggling" of Americans "trapped under a regime" unique to Trump's presidency.blungld said:How about this for a start:GBear4Life said:
It's like you're arguing against a segment of Republicans that shill for Trump (Hannity types) in clearly partisan ways. What do you want them to say/do that's rational and will appease you?
1) Mr. President the things in the Mueller report are unacceptable for a sitting president of the United States and we need you to provide an explanation to us the American people under oath.
2) We ask you to not stonewall the Congress in their Constitutional duty of oversight as they look into the things outlined in the Mueller report.
3) Please stop demeaning the office through your use of twitter and ceaseless personal attacks of political opponents.
4) Please govern for all Americans and look for bi-partisan solutions.
5) Release your personal and corporate tax returns as proof that your financial interests align with the country's and that you are not compromised.
If there is not just a "segment" of Republicans shilling for Trump, then we should be hearing this from the man on the street and from GOP members of Congress. The above requests are totally sane and legitimate.
Those 5 points, while reasonable, have nothing to do with anything other than your own quest to reconcile what you (and many people) think are obvious about the president's character and behavior with others who do not.
There is a broad cultural shift of accepting authoritarian behavior, of telling lies to be believed as truth, and appointees who are destroying the government, law, departments, and oversight across the board. Feeling powerless to change the narrative, to get others to heed the warnings, and watching the deployment of long-lasting damage to government, society, and culture feels like a suffocating cloud.GBear4Life said:
Who is 'trapped'? And why?
Maybe you don't see it or feel it, but believe me my network of friends, family, and professionals feel it and would similarly describe it as something close to being trapped. Gaslighted. Orwellian. Moving toward fascism. These are real warnings not made up hyperbole. I've never seen so much anxiety and stress about the country before.
They would restore some normalcy, accountability, truth, and unity. The results of which would be less lawless behavior and possible criminal charges to the president and his enablers. Or, the actual vindication he boasts.GBear4Life said:
What would those 5 reasonable points do to alleviate the "struggling" of Americans "trapped under a regime" unique to Trump's presidency.
Those 5 points, while reasonable, have nothing to do with anything other than your own quest to reconcile what you (and many people) think are obvious about the president's character and behavior with others who do not.
Why sugar coat it? Trump is a ****hole of a president and everything he touches turns to coal. He's the anti Midas and the longer he has influence the worse off everyone will be.
And no, whether his policies tend to overlap with yours or not does not justify continuing to support him. You literally could say the same thing about any dictator or terrible leader in history. Eg, at least the trains ran on time under Mussolini.
Long story short, if we are going to continue to pretend the Republican Party is the party of personal responsibility (or law and order lol) then you need to accept that anyone who continues to support Trump is either extremely low information (Trump would say low IQ), morally bankrupt or both. No one is falling for the policy signaling.
And no, whether his policies tend to overlap with yours or not does not justify continuing to support him. You literally could say the same thing about any dictator or terrible leader in history. Eg, at least the trains ran on time under Mussolini.
Long story short, if we are going to continue to pretend the Republican Party is the party of personal responsibility (or law and order lol) then you need to accept that anyone who continues to support Trump is either extremely low information (Trump would say low IQ), morally bankrupt or both. No one is falling for the policy signaling.
So you're saying we should take you seriously, not literally.GBear4Life said:
Relax, guy. It was tongue-and-cheek.
It's alarming that somebody who has accomplished next to nothing as president, except for maybe putting more money in poor people's pockets, can trigger folks so much that they lose all sense of reason and perspective.
SAD!
Lot of virtue signaling too: "Anybody who doesn't share my hatred is clearly morally defective or stupid" LMAO
SAD!
Lot of virtue signaling too: "Anybody who doesn't share my hatred is clearly morally defective or stupid" LMAO
Your delusion is from believing these issues are unique to one party. And depending on your ideology, some bother you while others don't.blungld said:There is a broad cultural shift of accepting authoritarian behavior, of telling lies to be believed as truth, and appointees who are destroying the government, law, departments, and oversight across the board. Feeling powerless to change the narrative, to get others to heed the warnings, and watching the deployment of long-lasting damage to government, society, and culture feels like a suffocating cloud.GBear4Life said:
Who is 'trapped'? And why?
Maybe you don't see it or feel it, but believe me my network of friends, family, and professionals feel it and would similarly describe it as something close to being trapped. Gaslighted. Orwellian. Moving toward fascism. These are real warnings not made up hyperbole. I've never seen so much anxiety and stress about the country before.
GBear4Life said:
"Anybody who doesn't share my hatred is clearly morally defective or stupid" LMAO
If you are going to paraphrase me get it right. I also said "or both". That's a large group and shouldn't be ignored.
It's on plain and blatant view by this president, never this extreme before, and so I want something done about it.GBear4Life said:
Your delusion is from believing these issues are unique to one party. And depending on your ideology, some bother you while others don't.
And if a Democrat does the same, I will feel the same. How about you spend more time saying yes this is true is a problem we should fix, and less time saying yeah but whatabout that over there and so we should do nothing or it's okay or you're a hypocrite? Why is your starting point always push back and saying there is something wrong about wanting to fix THIS White House?
Free redacted tip:
God, you are so dumb. And like most dumb people, you don't know how dumb you actually are.GBear4Life said:
Relax, guy. It was tongue-and-cheek.
But unlike most dumb people, you are fully aware how dumb you actually are?Yogi Bear said:God, you are so dumb. And like most dumb people, you don't know how dumb you actually are.GBear4Life said:
Relax, guy. It was tongue-and-cheek.
I disagree with GBear4Life's political views but I more strongly disagree with your purported moral superiority.blungld said:It's on plain and blatant view by this president, never this extreme before, and so I want something done about it.GBear4Life said:
Your delusion is from believing these issues are unique to one party. And depending on your ideology, some bother you while others don't.
And if a Democrat does the same, I will feel the same. How about you spend more time saying yes this is true is a problem we should fix, and less time saying yeah but whatabout that over there and so we should do nothing or it's okay or you're a hypocrite? Why is your starting point always push back and saying there is something wrong about wanting to fix THIS White House?
Please remind me what GBear4Life should be doing other than exercising his free thought and free will. Please show me how GBear4Life is acting in a way that is contrary to what he believes is best for the country. You may disagree with him on what is best for the country, but, since we are not in an authoritarian government and you are not an authority, he can exercise his free will based on his principles and not yours.
GBear4Life believes that this administration's exercise of power is no different from those of the prior administrations. Other than being plain and blatant, what is your main complaint against Trump that is different from your complaint against the prior administrations (including Obama whom I believe will be recognized in history as one of the better presidents)?
Besides, short of a coup d'etat, what do you expect him to do? What are you doing that he is not doing? You both seem to be limiting your actions to posting on some internet forum? Maybe I have seen you on the news promoting your cause. Maybe you have been organizing fund raisers for someone (almost anyone) to remove the clown. Without knowing, please excuse me for not taking your moral cues and rising to your call to action.
Don't mistake this as a political opposition post. In addition to my repulsion to Trump's lack of moral center, I believe his myopic view of our necessary role in promoting human dignity (not necessarily democracy) and preserving our planet will have long-term adverse consequences. I intend to vote for anyone but him.
But because I appreciate that we are not a facist or bolshevik society, others are free to develop their own views. And I won't shame them for doing exactly what our form of government was designed for them to do.
There's another side to this, though: if we live in a society where everyone gets a vote and majority rules (yes, I realize with certain small-R republican limits) then it is ALSO incumbent upon citizens to discuss important issues with each other and try to change minds if possible, right? Is that not what blungld is basically doing? You might personally find his style grating, but I wouldn't call it some fundamental misunderstanding of our system of government.dbklalw said:
But because I appreciate that we are not a facist or bolshevik society, others are free to develop their own views. And I won't shame them for doing exactly what our form of government was designed for them to do.
Hillary Clinton: Mueller documented a serious crime against all Americans. Here's how to respond.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-mueller-documented-a-serious-crime-against-all-americans-heres-how-to-respond/2019/04/24/1e8f7e16-66b7-11e9-82ba-fcfeff232e8f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3774238b5b25
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Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
No, he's venting/whiing/virtue signaling. "I'm a good person, if you refuse to match my moral outrage, I'm superior to you"sycasey said:There's another side to this, though: if we live in a society where everyone gets a vote and majority rules (yes, I realize with certain small-R republican limits) then it is ALSO incumbent upon citizens to discuss important issues with each other and try to change minds if possible, right? Is that not what blungld is basically doing? You might personally find his style grating, but I wouldn't call it some fundamental misunderstanding of our system of government.dbklalw said:
But because I appreciate that we are not a facist or bolshevik society, others are free to develop their own views. And I won't shame them for doing exactly what our form of government was designed for them to do.
Character attacks and virtue signaling is far easier -- and more effective -- than dialogue/debate/engagement/steelmanning actual content.dbklalw said:But unlike most dumb people, you are fully aware how dumb you actually are?Yogi Bear said:God, you are so dumb. And like most dumb people, you don't know how dumb you actually are.GBear4Life said:
Relax, guy. It was tongue-and-cheek.
Ghosting is more disrespectful and offensive than anything Trump has ever done!B.A. Bearacus said:
Free redacted tip:
I pointed out clear as day your gripes are emotional outbursts about the character of a politician AND people's willingness to 'support' him in spite of that. Your claim about empathy for "struggle" and being "stuck under a regime" was refuted by your own words.blungld said:It's on plain and blatant view by this president, never this extreme before, and so I want something done about it.GBear4Life said:
Your delusion is from believing these issues are unique to one party. And depending on your ideology, some bother you while others don't.
And if a Democrat does the same, I will feel the same. How about you spend more time saying yes this is true is a problem we should fix, and less time saying yeah but whatabout that over there and so we should do nothing or it's okay or you're a hypocrite? Why is your starting point always push back and saying there is something wrong about wanting to fix THIS White House?
"Fix"? You want everyone to join you in enthusiastic support of impeachment? Oblivious to the fact that Democrats should only wish to be so lucky to have had an opposing president occupy the WH and accomplish virtually nothing for 28 months. Yet here you are virtue signaling about "regimes" and "struggles".
Get a grip. Trump, or other people's views of Trump, don't affirm or refute your political ideologies.
Again, if you can't see how this is pervasive across political lines, you are simply not paying attention to critics of your own ideology enough. This is not an indictment of THEM, it's actually an indictment of 'us' for not reigning in absurd fringes from becoming normalized as 'mainstream'. The primary way media and public opinion leaders mislead is by setting the agenda by which stories they cover, and of course how they cover them. Google CNN and MSNBC lying and you almost empathize with someone who says Fox News is important. They all try to set the cultural narratives by ignoring stories and framing. I don't see it useful to tally a score and to anoint one side more noble than the other. They all battle the propensity to be disingenuous and overtly ideological.blungld said:There is a broad cultural shift of accepting authoritarian behavior, of telling lies to be believed as truth, and appointees who are destroying the government, law, departments, and oversight across the board.GBear4Life said:
Who is 'trapped'? And why?
This just seems like sophistry. What narrative? The narrative on the right? The narrative on the Left has reigned supreme. The Left owns MSM aside from Fox. Again, what narrative are you fighting and what will come of it? It's a genuine question, because narratives are powerful, and we might actually agree that particular narratives are liabilities.Quote:
Feeling powerless to change the narrative, to get others to heed the warnings, and watching the deployment of long-lasting damage to government, society, and culture feels like a suffocating cloud.
It's hard for me to read sentiments like this and not roll my eyes. Not to be flippant, but for educated adults to confer so much power to a complete stranger, to have such an external locus of control, who has, in all likelihood, not tangibly affected their lives as mind baffling. Like, how does such a person get through their day without keeling over? How does one overcome the obstacles throughout the day personally, professionally and physically if they can become so hyperbolic and delusion in their rhetoric on a president whose most recognized actions are tweets on the internet. This assumes that this rhetoric is actually sincere, and not overly emotive rhetoric to amplify the urgency and stakes of said issue.Quote:
Maybe you don't see it or feel it, but believe me my network of friends, family, and professionals feel it and would similarly describe it as something close to being trapped. Gaslighted. Orwellian. Moving toward fascism. These are real warnings not made up hyperbole. I've never seen so much anxiety and stress about the country before.
When you impose motives on other people like this, it means that I don't want to hear any complaining from you about other people saying your posts are motivated by racism or whatever. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.GBear4Life said:No, he's venting/whiing/virtue signaling. "I'm a good person, if you refuse to match my moral outrage, I'm superior to you"sycasey said:There's another side to this, though: if we live in a society where everyone gets a vote and majority rules (yes, I realize with certain small-R republican limits) then it is ALSO incumbent upon citizens to discuss important issues with each other and try to change minds if possible, right? Is that not what blungld is basically doing? You might personally find his style grating, but I wouldn't call it some fundamental misunderstanding of our system of government.dbklalw said:
But because I appreciate that we are not a facist or bolshevik society, others are free to develop their own views. And I won't shame them for doing exactly what our form of government was designed for them to do.
Where have I ever said anything like that?GBear4Life said:
No, he's venting/whiing/virtue signaling. "I'm a good person, if you refuse to match my moral outrage, I'm superior to you"
But if my opinions seem "superior" to you, maybe they are? OR maybe they at least make you feel morally inferior? You need to maybe work that out for yourself.
I have tried to engage with you and feel like you don't listen and do not respond earnestly. You undoubtedly feel the same. I think you use shorthand buzz words instead of real content and that your arguments are illogical. You think I am too emotional and a phony.GBear4Life said:
It's hard for me to read sentiments like this and not roll my eyes. Not to be flippant, but for educated adults to confer so much power to a complete stranger, to have such an external locus of control, who has, in all likelihood, not tangibly affected their lives as mind baffling. Like, how does such a person get through their day without keeling over? How does one overcome the obstacles throughout the day personally, professionally and physically if they can become so hyperbolic and delusion in their rhetoric on a president whose most recognized actions are tweets on the internet. This assumes that this rhetoric is actually sincere, and not overly emotive rhetoric to amplify the urgency and stakes of said issue.
I had hopes that given our opposing views we could find some common ground and reasonable discussion, but we can't. I don't respect your values or the ungracious place you come from and the obnoxious way you express it. I don't like ignoring people on the boards, so let's instead just agree to stop speaking to one another.
And yet some johnny-come-lately premium board person comes onto this board and wonders why I talk down to certain people. Maybe because I came to the conclusion months ago (years maybe) that these people are not conversing with you. They spend all their time talking about how stupid you are for thinking what you think and being who you are.blungld said:I have tried to engage with you and feel like you don't listen and do not respond earnestly. You undoubtedly feel the same. I think you use shorthand buzz words instead of real content and that your arguments are illogical. You think I am too emotional and a phony.GBear4Life said:
It's hard for me to read sentiments like this and not roll my eyes. Not to be flippant, but for educated adults to confer so much power to a complete stranger, to have such an external locus of control, who has, in all likelihood, not tangibly affected their lives as mind baffling. Like, how does such a person get through their day without keeling over? How does one overcome the obstacles throughout the day personally, professionally and physically if they can become so hyperbolic and delusion in their rhetoric on a president whose most recognized actions are tweets on the internet. This assumes that this rhetoric is actually sincere, and not overly emotive rhetoric to amplify the urgency and stakes of said issue.
I had hopes that given our opposing views we could find some common ground and reasonable discussion, but we can't. I don't respect your values or the ungracious place you come from and the obnoxious way you express it. I don't like ignoring people on the boards, so let's instead just agree to stop speaking to one another.
Meanwhile, we have a demonstrably unqualified person in the executive branch, verified by a public investigation, and yet these same people want to tell me that I'm the stupid one? Well, don't be shocked when I treat you the way you treat me.
These people are not to be understood. They are an enemy that must be defeated and relegated to the dark shadows from whence they came. And then we as a society must make sure that these people are never able to elect this kind of person to the office again by making sure that we always outnumber them and exercise our rights to relegate them into being the minority that they (fortunately) still are.
Uh, your incessant moralizing posts say that.blungld said:Where have I ever said anything like that?GBear4Life said:
No, he's venting/whiing/virtue signaling. "I'm a good person, if you refuse to match my moral outrage, I'm superior to you"
But if my opinions seem "superior" to you, maybe they are? OR maybe they at least make you feel morally inferior? You need to maybe work that out for yourself.
No, your opinions don't seem superior -- nobody seems morally superior based on message board posts IMO -- which is why I find your incessant moralizing so absurd.
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