puget sound cal fan said:

---

Very discouraging to hear.

---

I hear you man - SF is like cal sports in that way. There is absolutely no reason that SF should not be unquestionable the best city in America but some wacky stuff keeps us down.

It stinks for watching pro-am ball, but frankly I'd rather Paris take as many of those reps driving to the hole as possible.

Every rep counts.

I was watching the video int he OP and kept thinking, this looks more like a spiderfly highlight.

rkt88edmo said:

---

It stinks for watching pro-am ball, but frankly I'd rather Paris take as many of those reps driving to the hole as possible.

Every rep counts.

I was watching the video int he OP and kept thinking, this looks more like a spiderfly highlight.

---

So excited to see him this year. My favorite of the freshman.

GMP said:

---

fat_slice said:

---

GMP said:

---

NVBear78 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Dear Hell and SFC,
I'd love to hear you guys compare and contrast supporting or disagreeing commentary on that thesis.

Things have been going south in SF ever since the late 1960's. SF today is one of the great disgraces in the US.

Why say that?

---

Have you been to SF recently Tom? How did you like it? What was it like in cleanliness, people on the street and overall atmosphere compared to ten years ago or twenty years ago? Do your daughters feel safe there? Do you think they are safe there compared to the past?

---

Have you? I live here. I have young kids. I take them almost anywhere in this city. It's perfectly safe. As with anywhere, there are areas to avoid. Yes, homelessness is a problem, but the large majority mean no harm and present no threat. Among major cities, SF's violent crime rate is relatively low.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

---

I have been an SF resident for 6 years now leaving in the North Beach / Fisherman's Wharf area and can absolutely attest to this city getting a whole lot worse. I can go a week without ever seeing a cop and when I do they are often old or just goofing around with each other. There is human feces all over the place and noticeably more mentally deranged people walking about. People always told me that while they look scary and are aggressive, they won't hurt you. Well one looney stabbed a couple near a playground near me. So while 99% of them don't harm you it doesn't matter because you need to be vigilant loolingout for that 1%.

I love the city but it's clear it's being run by either lazy or corrupt politicians.

Violent crime is one indicator of how bad a city is but to bring this back to sports ... SF does not meet the eye-test should be left out of the tournament for best American city.

---

C'mon. One anecdotal story is not evidence of anything. And it's certainly not evidence of SF being worse than other cities, when those other cities have the same issues. Find me a major American city without violent crime, homelessness, etc. You're also complaining about lack of police presence in the safest neighborhoods. Walk around the Tenderloin and tell me if you see police. You will.

It's certainly not perfect. But it's better than many cities, worse than others. It is certainly not a "great disgrace", as was claimed to begin this discussion.

---

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/SF-Mayor-Theres-more-feces-on-the-sidewalks-than-Ive-ever-seen-488156431.html

Dear GMP: what you essentially said was that SF cannot be singled out because most other US cities are just as bad. do you really want to hang your hat on that argument??I was born and raised in SF. I was there. Trust me. Ask 10,000 people who were born and raised in SF and 999 will sadly admit to being horrified by the universal collapse of culture, collapse of affordable housing, collapse of educational standards, as well as a unrelenting hostility toward business . it is no accident that residents of the City and the State are fleeing in droves.

After 40 years in the Bay Area I bailed out. Sold my Blackhawk house and moved to Montreux, outside Reno at the base of Mt. Rose. Nothing in the Bay Area compares to this. Nothing. I have never seen a traffic jam here. I go to Danville and Castro Valley frequently to visit family. I have never been there without running into a traffic jam on 680 or some other freeway. Can't get away fast enough. All my neighbors are Californians.

I renewed my BB season tickets and will go to as many games as possible.I also want to see Brown and the Wolfpack play. The Wolfpack are a big deal in Reno.

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear GMP: what you essentially said was that SF cannot be singled out because most other US cities are just as bad. do you really want to hang your hat on that argument??I was born and raised in SF. I was there. Trust me. Ask 10,000 people who were born and raised in SF and 999 will sadly admit to being horrified by the universal collapse of culture, collapse of affordable housing, collapse of educational standards, as well as a unrelenting hostility toward business . it is no accident that residents of the City and the State are fleeing in droves.

---

I think what gmp is trying to say is that with all major cities you take the good with the bad.

Sure, if you live in some suburb outside of Reno, there's going to be no traffic, homeless, smog etc. you're also not going to have theaters, museums, sports franchises, Michelin rated restaurants, etc

So comparing San Francisco to Montreux (or any other similar suburb) is comparing apples to oranges.

Some people like the city life. Some don't.

But comparing a major city to a far flung suburb is pointless.

Dear Ducky: you were obviously not born and raised in SF.

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear Ducky: you were obviously not born and raised in SF.

---

Not sure about Ducky, but I wasn't. However, whether one was or wasn't isn't terribly germane to the conversation. Personally, I figure you hold a romanticized vision of the city that did not ever exist. Perhaps I'm wrong and you're right. That doesn't make the city a "disgrace". As ducky said, there is good and bad in every city, and you weigh those things and choose where you want to live. As I said, SF has plenty of problems that must be fixed. But I like living here, and as I said I feel very safe, and the crime numbers back that up. Someone else mentioned moving to a Reno suburb and how happy they are. That's their choice. But I've been to Reno and its suburbs. You couldn't pay me to live in either. It does not present to me the things I am looking for in life. Others feel the same way about SF, which is fine.

But your personal preferences don't make it objectively true. Perhaps San Francisco is worse in the neighborhoods you visit. Try some others, if you'd like. Or not. I ask, though: if the city is such a disgrace, why aren't people leaving? Why are home prices/rents still rising? In my opinion, it's because it's still a great city with many great, unique, and interesting places to live for people in many different stages of life.

It's still a great city but I would say less so. My frame of reference is not versus other cities but rather to what SF (and my particular neighborhood especially) was like when I moved here 7 years ago.

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear Ducky: you were obviously not born and raised in SF.

---

You're right. I was not born in Sf. And if given the choice, I wouldn't want to live there or any other major city. That's just my preference.

But I have friends who live in major cities from across the world and they happen to enjoy all the things that a large city affords and the suburbs don't. And they love it. And I completely get it.

Again, some people enjoy city life and some don't. Neither preference is necessarily wrong.

For instance, I wanted to spend my four years of college in Berkeley and not say Westwood or Palo Alto. Doesn't necessarily make those furdies who enjoy the more plastic lifestyle wussies, right?

different things for different people in different stages of their lives

what you want/like/value is your choice
what others want/like/value is not your choice

can you make observations about how a city has changed for better or worse over time?

of course

but even that is a personal judgement. Some people focus on the negative changes. Others focus on the positive changes

For example, the Bay Area has more job opportunities and diversity
those are things that are important to some, but not others. That's not a value statement. It's a fact.

Personal judgement????In my day, there were no gangs, no homeless, no rampant drug use, no filthy streets, no spiraling home-price escalation, no hostility to businesses, so few illegals you could count them on one hand; you could walk around your neighborhood at midnight without fear of being accosted. public and private school education was top-notch . Religion was respected. Churches were full or nearly full every Sunday. nobody worried about free speech. people respected differences of opinion without shouting at them that they were racists, homophobes, sexists, etc. Teachers were respected and had the full backing of principals and school boards. Nobody sued the teacher because the teacher demanded respect, obedience and intellectual vigor. Bad apples were sent home and were not allowed back in the class unless the parents ( yes-----kids usually had two parents in this days) pleaded with the principal to give the wayward student one more chance. Fighting in class was automatic grounds for dismissal. yelling or fighting with the teacher was automatic grounds for dismissal. grade inflation had not yet been invented. Nobody automatically got a trophy just for showing up. trophies had to be earned. Baseball games were not terminated in the 5th inning because one team was at least 10 runs behind. In CYO basketball, no child was required to play at least one quarter. Playing was a privilege and you played because you deserved to play. parents were not allowed to browbeat coaches into giving their kid more vplaying time. Parents did even dream of doing this. Marriage was considered normal. Today, marriage is simply considered one more optional life-style choice. I have just begun to scratch the surface. Personal judgement?????Sad reality.

helltopay1 said:

---

Personal judgement????In my day, there were no gangs, no homeless, no rampant drug use, no filthy streets, no spiraling home-price escalation, no hostility to businesses, so few illegals you could count them on one hand; you could walk around your neighborhood at midnight without fear of being accosted. public and private school education was top-notch . Religion was respected. Churches were full or nearly full every Sunday. nobody worried about free speech. people respected differences of opinion without shouting at them that they were racists, homophobes, sexists, etc. Teachers were respected and had the full backing of principals and school boards. Nobody sued the teacher because the teacher demanded respect, obedience and intellectual vigor. Bad apples were sent home and were not allowed back in the class unless the parents ( yes-----kids usually had two parents in this days) pleaded with the principal to give the wayward student one more chance. Fighting in class was automatic grounds for dismissal. yelling or fighting with the teacher was automatic grounds for dismissal. grade inflation had not yet been invented. Nobody automatically got a trophy just for showing up. trophies had to be earned. Baseball games were not terminated in the 5th inning because one team was at least 10 runs behind. In CYO basketball, no child was required to play at least one quarter. Playing was a privilege and you played because you deserved to play. parents were not allowed to browbeat coaches into giving their kid more vplaying time. Parents did even dream of doing this. Marriage was considered normal. Today, marriage is simply considered one more optional life-style choice. I have just begun to scratch the surface. Personal judgement?????Sad reality.

---

Surprise, surprise.

helltopay1 said:

---

Personal judgement????In my day, there were no gangs, no homeless, no rampant drug use, no filthy streets, no spiraling home-price escalation, no hostility to businesses, so few illegals you could count them on one hand; you could walk around your neighborhood at midnight without fear of being accosted. public and private school education was top-notch . Religion was respected. Churches were full or nearly full every Sunday. nobody worried about free speech. people respected differences of opinion without shouting at them that they were racists, homophobes, sexists, etc. Teachers were respected and had the full backing of principals and school boards. Nobody sued the teacher because the teacher demanded respect, obedience and intellectual vigor. Bad apples were sent home and were not allowed back in the class unless the parents ( yes-----kids usually had two parents in this days) pleaded with the principal to give the wayward student one more chance. Fighting in class was automatic grounds for dismissal. yelling or fighting with the teacher was automatic grounds for dismissal. grade inflation had not yet been invented. Nobody automatically got a trophy just for showing up. trophies had to be earned. Baseball games were not terminated in the 5th inning because one team was at least 10 runs behind. In CYO basketball, no child was required to play at least one quarter. Playing was a privilege and you played because you deserved to play. parents were not allowed to browbeat coaches into giving their kid more vplaying time. Parents did even dream of doing this. Marriage was considered normal. Today, marriage is simply considered one more optional life-style choice. I have just begun to scratch the surface. Personal judgement?????Sad reality.

---

You sing the right-wing song well.

How bad do you feel about having voted for Trump?

Why does every conversation disolve into a-trump hatred?.... Indidnt vote for him, dont like him and wish he were gone. But everything Hell says is true? San Francisco is a much worse place to live than it used to be.

Dear yogi: Let me see if I got this right: Trump is to blame for the gradual and systemic deterioration of San Francisco. Sounds about right. He is also to blame for the decline of culture in Chicago, detroit, Cleveland, Los Angeles, philadelphia, New York, New Jersey, salt Lake city, and every other major city in the US> Thanks for setting me straight. I need to sue all those history and logic and constitutional professors who knowingly fed us all that false propaganda growing up. Thank God for Yogi Bear and his ilk for his wisdom and his unlimited generosity in sharing it.

helltopay1 said:

---

Personal judgement????In my day, there were no gangs, no homeless, no rampant drug use, no filthy streets, no spiraling home-price escalation, no hostility to businesses, so few illegals you could count them on one hand; you could walk around your neighborhood at midnight without fear of being accosted. public and private school education was top-notch . Religion was respected. Churches were full or nearly full every Sunday. nobody worried about free speech. people respected differences of opinion without shouting at them that they were racists, homophobes, sexists, etc. Teachers were respected and had the full backing of principals and school boards. Nobody sued the teacher because the teacher demanded respect, obedience and intellectual vigor. Bad apples were sent home and were not allowed back in the class unless the parents ( yes-----kids usually had two parents in this days) pleaded with the principal to give the wayward student one more chance. Fighting in class was automatic grounds for dismissal. yelling or fighting with the teacher was automatic grounds for dismissal. grade inflation had not yet been invented. Nobody automatically got a trophy just for showing up. trophies had to be earned. Baseball games were not terminated in the 5th inning because one team was at least 10 runs behind. In CYO basketball, no child was required to play at least one quarter. Playing was a privilege and you played because you deserved to play. parents were not allowed to browbeat coaches into giving their kid more vplaying time. Parents did even dream of doing this. Marriage was considered normal. Today, marriage is simply considered one more optional life-style choice. I have just begun to scratch the surface. Personal judgement?????Sad reality.

---

This is why people shouldn't text while driving!!

BTW, you left out . . . "They shut down all the insane asylums and let the patients loose on the streets".

oskidunker said:

---

But everything Hell says is true?

---

Only if you're afraid of brown-skinned people

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear yogi: Let me see if I got this right:

---

Terrific straw men.

I was really just confirming that you were one of the very stupid people who thought voting for Trump was a good idea and letting it stand on its own merit.

dear Yogi: Your genius and generosity of spirit leaves me speechless. where do we find people like you??

helltopay1 said:

---

dear Yogi: Your genius and generosity of spirit leaves me speechless. where do we find people like you??

---

Not in church on Sunday.

no kidding.

Dear Yogi: for the record, I did not vote last year. when you are a republican as I am ( still allowed under our constitution) you focus on the party and not the man. you judge the man ( or woman) on wether or not he or she has carried out policies dear to the hearts of the party. Character, is , of course, important, but when you realize that all men have feet of clay, in thge end, you focus on to what extant the the person in power has faithfully been a steward of the philosophical principles inherent in the party. This is why, to this day, Reagan remains a deity in the republican party. he remains a deity because , for the most part, he faithfully carried out policies and programs dear to the hearts of republicans. it is also true, that, for the most part, both Bushes have a decidedly mixed record with the faithful because, on many occasions they strayed from orthodoxy by either not pursuing republican principles or by actively pursuing policies and practices which were and are dear to the hearts of the Democratic party. In 2020, if most republicans are convinced that Trump has kept the faith by enacting principles dear to the hearts of republicans, he will probably be re-elected. If many republicans feel that he has strayed from his promises , then, he will probably be defeated by any Democrat because there are more Democrats than republicans. events, of course, are in the saddle, and, interpretations of those events will carry the day. contrary to mainstream 'talking points," most voters are not stupid. They weigh thousands of thoughts and emotions before entering the voting booth , and, in many cases, simply choose 'the lesser of two evils." last time around, many Americans simply said, " I'm going to go with the devil I don't know rather than go with the devil I do know. i'm going to roll the dice and give a gig middle finger to the corrupt establishment.....if things don't work out, we can always go back to known devils the next time around." Not really rocket science if you follow culture and politics.

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear Yogi: for the record, I did not vote last year.

---

Do tell about the issues facing the nation in the 2017 election.

Quote:

---

when you are a republican as I am ( still allowed under our constitution) you focus on the party and not the man.

---

I know. It's what gets you dummies into trouble. Party over everything else.

Quote:

---

In 2020, if most republicans are convinced that Trump has kept the faith by enacting principles dear to the hearts of republicans, he will probably be re-elected.

---

Honestly, most of you are too stupid to know whether he has or not.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

there are more Democrats than republicans.

---

---

If that mattered, Trump wouldn't be president now.

Quote:

---

contrary to mainstream 'talking points," most voters are not stupid.

---

Voters are very very stooooopid. Like you. You think Trump stands for your values when he doesn't.

Quote:

---

last time around, many Americans simply said, " I'm going to go with the devil I don't know rather than go with the devil I do know. i'm going to roll the dice and give a gig middle finger to the corrupt establishment

---

Well thank goodness you voted against corruption. Great job. You sure showed us.

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear GMP: what you essentially said was that SF cannot be singled out because most other US cities are just as bad. do you really want to hang your hat on that argument??I was born and raised in SF. I was there. Trust me. Ask 10,000 people who were born and raised in SF and 999 will sadly admit to being horrified by the universal collapse of culture, collapse of affordable housing, collapse of educational standards, as well as a unrelenting hostility toward business . it is no accident that residents of the City and the State are fleeing in droves.

---

Shouldn't that huge exodus you speak of lead to vacancies and lower house prices, lower rents (and fewer people reduced to living on the streets)?

"Collapse of affordable housing"??? That is from all the businesses and people that have move TO San Francisco. Crime rates are way down in San Francsico and California has had budget surpluses. Oakland and Berkeley are largely gentrified, including West Oakland and East Oakland now. Potrero Hill or the Mission? You think could afford to buy there? Even Bayview Hunters Point is gentrifying. Honestly, it sounds like you have been away longer than me. The biggest problem for many of us who have left is only that we cannot afford to move back.

The bashing of SF is absolutey part of the Fox News narrative. My Right Wing golfing buddies are always talking about it and they also pepper their diatribes with lots of "disgrace" "disgraceful," and "disaster" which just happen to be words that make up 60% of our Mad King's vocabulary. The Evangelicals are all over it too. Sanctuary City, gay Mecca, Black female mayor, all components that sets their pants on fire. And these are the reflections of an Oakland boy with a lifelong F SF attitude, especially the sports fans, most of whom are front runners with no historical connection to the City.

helltopay1 said:

---

Dear Yogi: for the record, I did not vote last year. when you are a republican as I am ( still allowed under our constitution) you focus on the party and not the man. you judge the man ( or woman) on wether or not he or she has carried out policies dear to the hearts of the party. Character, is , of course, important, but when you realize that all men have feet of clay, in thge end, you focus on to what extant the the person in power has faithfully been a steward of the philosophical principles inherent in the party. This is why, to this day, Reagan remains a deity in the republican party. he remains a deity because , for the most part, he faithfully carried out policies and programs dear to the hearts of republicans. it is also true, that, for the most part, both Bushes have a decidedly mixed record with the faithful because, on many occasions they strayed from orthodoxy by either not pursuing republican principles or by actively pursuing policies and practices which were and are dear to the hearts of the Democratic party. In 2020, if most republicans are convinced that Trump has kept the faith by enacting principles dear to the hearts of republicans, he will probably be re-elected. If many republicans feel that he has strayed from his promises , then, he will probably be defeated by any Democrat because there are more Democrats than republicans. events, of course, are in the saddle, and, interpretations of those events will carry the day. contrary to mainstream 'talking points," most voters are not stupid. They weigh thousands of thoughts and emotions before entering the voting booth , and, in many cases, simply choose 'the lesser of two evils." last time around, many Americans simply said, " I'm going to go with the devil I don't know rather than go with the devil I do know. i'm going to roll the dice and give a gig middle finger to the corrupt establishment.....if things don't work out, we can always go back to known devils the next time around." Not really rocket science if you follow culture and politics.

---

I wasn't aware republicans were pro tariffs, pro Russia and for raising the deficit. Thank you for the education.

bearister said:

---

The bashing of SF is absolutey part of the Fox News narrative. My Right Wing golfing buddies are always talking about it and they also pepper their diatribes with lots of "disgrace" "disgraceful," and "disaster" which just happen to be words that make up 60% of our Mad King's vocabulary. The Evangelicals are all over it too. Sanctuary City, gay Mecca, Black female mayor, all components that sets their pants on fire. And these are the reflections of an Oakland boy with a lifelong F SF attitude, especially the sports fans, most of whom are front runners with no historical connection to the City.

---

Exactly.

helltopay1 said:

---

Character, is , of course, important, but when you realize that all men have feet of clay, in thge end, you focus on to what extant the the person in power has faithfully been a steward of the philosophical principles inherent in the party

---

I think you have half of that right, the party first half. But I think it's more about loyalty than principle, more like supporting a religion or a team (notice how I keep this relevant to Cal basketball).

But I do see principles in leaders as opposed to voters. With some the overriding principle is winning, by any means. Unfortunately leaders with that mindset are more likely to win. Back to sports, consider doping, paying recruits, etc.

Quote:

---

contrary to mainstream 'talking points," most voters are not stupid. They weigh thousands of thoughts and emotions before entering the voting booth

---

IMHO the top targets among those thousands are fear, greed, and hatred, or their opposites trust, altruism, and love. More reasoned appeals require more knowledgable voters.

Quote:

---

last time around, many Americans simply said, " I'm going to go with the devil I don't know rather than go with the devil I do know. i'm going to roll the dice and give a gig middle finger to the corrupt establishment

---

What could go wrong with that?

Top 50 Most Dangerous Cities in United States. Not only is Fox News' wet dream not on the list, it is over represented by cities in tRump Country:

https://www.safewise.com/blog/most-dangerous-cities/

I, for one, am with helltopay

Let's make America great again and turn over all furdies to the Russians starting with Michael McFaul

Yogi Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

But everything Hell says is true?

---

Only if you're afraid of brown-skinned people

---

Woo hoo, the race card! What took you so long. And you talk about straw men....

NVBear78 said:

---

Yogi Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

But everything Hell says is true?

---

Only if you're afraid of brown-skinned people

---

Woo hoo, the race card! What took you so long. And you talk about straw men....

---

You've got to be kidding. Hell's rant had dog's howling all cross the Bay Area.

Agree. I could care less what color someone isFreaks scare me. And there are plenty all over the city. This quote from another thread sums it up for me. I don't go to San Francisco much anymore because of this. Used to have Symphony season tickets , Chamber music and would go to various plays once in a while. Last time I walked through that Bart mess on my way to Curran theater it did it for me. I really hope they clean up the mess. Maybe conventions would not be cancelling if the city were not so unwelcoming and dirty.


It is most definitely not a safe neighborhood and I have lived in DC, and NYC. Have you visited recently? I see theft from the neighborhood Safeway very often ...I see poor tourists cars broken into virtually every day. You should see the level of frustration in the neighborhood with the human feces and the pictures of people doing attempted break in being posted all over. It may have been safe before but now. Also, my point is that violent crime is not the only thing that makes a city safe. The crazies that walk around screaming and clearly out of their minds does not make people feel safe .. and that's what really counts.