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Big C
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dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.
dajo9
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Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?
DiabloWags
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Unit2Sucks
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dajo9 said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?


Shame on you for violating their right to free expression of their religion - surely judging other people's personal decisions is longstanding religious tradition.

Next you will say they can't curse people or accuse them of witchcraft.
Big C
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AunBear89 said:

I have been working in education in various capacities for 30+ years. In my experience, there have always been kids who are a little different from their peers. The boy who would rather play kitchen and dolls rather than four square or tag during play time. Minot and his buddies (and their children) would call him a sissy or similar pejoratives. Or the girl who would rather play dodgeball or climb the play structure rather than pretend to be princesses or color butterflies. She gets called a Tomboy.

Many of these kids used to suppress these desires and forced themselves to conform to societal norms, creating long term emotional issues that could lead to a variety of negative outcomes. Today's parents and larger society are more accepting of these kids, and they are encouraged to explore who they are and what they enjoy. In this environment, it is not surprising that some of these kids will start to ask further deeper questions about who they are and how they fit in to society.

I think a supportive school should be an environment where this exploration be can happen safely. But the unhinged GOP is convinced that this more open environment leads to grooming or even surgery without parental consent.

Such nonsense does not happen at the rate these clowns suggest. No gender affirming surgery happens to minors without parental consent, and the patient must undergo counseling regardless of age to assess the commitment and seriousness of the intention to began transitioning.

But Righteous Righties will continue to tell their horror stories and pretend they care about these kids. But their inability to act on guns show they don't give a f- about kids. Just virtue signaling red meat for the base. And movie lover and Minot eat it up and ask for more.

AunBear89 can bring it, when he decides he wants to: I agree with the above 100%. Really, I feel like my stance on this was mischaracterized by cherry-picking one sentence and taking it out of its larger context.
Big C
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dajo9 said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?

Seriously? You're really changing around the issue now... and to your own disadvantage. Suddenly this is about the freedom of individual families to make their own decisions without being judged? What if a father wants to spank his five year old cisgender boy for playing with dolls? You would not judge that? I certainly would.
MinotStateBeav
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Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?

Seriously? You're really changing around the issue now... and to your own disadvantage. Suddenly this is about the freedom of individual families to make their own decisions without being judged? What if a father wants to spank his five year old cisgender boy for playing with dolls? You would not judge that? I certainly would.
I would probably kick the father in the ballz for saying cisgender.
Big C
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MinotStateBeav said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?

Seriously? You're really changing around the issue now... and to your own disadvantage. Suddenly this is about the freedom of individual families to make their own decisions without being judged? What if a father wants to spank his five year old cisgender boy for playing with dolls? You would not judge that? I certainly would.
I would probably kick the father in the ballz for saying cisgender.

The father in the hypothetical didn't say it... but I did. You want some more? Latinx! (Speaking of judging people, when I was growing up, we judged people for what we called "fighting dirty", which included biting, scratching, kicking in the balls, etc... fighting had to be a combination of boxing and wrestling, otherwise no respect.)

I figure I must be on the right track tonight, when I'm pissing off the left and the right.
movielover
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Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"? (BTW, that sentence that you quoted was part of a larger context.)


How about we accept, love, and encourage them.into adulthood without playing Dr. Frankenstein with them?!

Do you.know what happens to sexually confused children, specifically to those with types of gender dysphoria, if you leave them alone??

There are at least two biological reasons to leave them alone, support them, as they are without the new fad of cutting them open!

"First, do no harm."
movielover
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.

Quote:

When did conservatives stop valuing personal freedom? According to anecdotal evidence, about half of all tattoo recipients regret getting inked. Should we outlaw that? Why haven't conservatives ever taken notice of the growth in cosmetic surgery to teenagers in this country? Whether it's a nose job or breast reduction or augmentation, why do they not care about that? Does breast reduction only become a problem when it's someone transitioning?

This "transitioning" process is very far from benign, not just with the body mutilations, but also in the chemical treatments, the drugs also are not benign.



Dr. Jordan Peterson conducts essentially an almost two hour therapy session / interview with de-transitioner Chloe Cole on YouTube. It's riveting. There were countless less invasive steps that could have been taken with her, therapeutic steps, and it sure sounds like the ugly consequences of what was to happen were hidden from her. Dr. Peterson doesn't talk down to her, stays clinical, but you can feel the emotion at times. She's quite mature for 19. She's a hero, and some in the medical profession are monsters.

I highly recommend this video. It's tough at times.


movielover
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Edit.
movielover
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Edit.
movielover
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AunBear89 said:

I have been working in education in various capacities for 30+ years. ...

I think a supportive school should be an environment where this exploration be can happen safely. ...

Such nonsense does not happen at the rate these clowns suggest. No gender affirming surgery happens to minors without parental consent, and the patient must undergo counseling regardless of age to assess the commitment and seriousness of the intention to began transitioning.

But Righteous Righties will continue to tell their horror stories and pretend they care about these kids. But their inability to act on guns show they don't give a f- about kids. Just virtue signaling red meat for the base. And movie lover and Minot eat it up and ask for more.


You started out rational and then took a Left turn, including name calling.

Why should schools play a role in children exploring gender identities, particularly when they have no expertise?

How can a 12- or 14-year-old consent? Especially when they are lied to, fast tracked, and given incompetent, incomplete, superficial counseling? A 14-year-old who is "serious", even though major biological events are still underway. And why the RUSH?

Virtue signaling? Millions of students can't pass basic math and English tests. In fact, many teachers can't even pass the same test! No wonder we're in such sad shape vs the Japanese and others. They're studying Calculus and English, and our kids are battling drugs, gangs, and the gender gestapo.
movielover
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I asked you some simple questions which you dodged (expected), and then you delved into more name calling (typical). I'll try one more time, and edit them down for brevity. It's OK if you don't know. (Please save the name calling for somebody else.)

- I can point to two obvious biological reasons why we shouldn't perform sex change procedures on 12 year olds. Can you?

- Why are we speed-tracking Tik Tok diagnosis of children?

- Do you have any idea why this phenomena / fad is primarily affecting young girls?

- Why are you in such a rush to give a 12-year-old girl a double mastectomy, hormone blockers and hormones, when that all could still be done at 22 or 25?

- And what happens to these - typically young girls - if you just leave them the hell alone?
MinotStateBeav
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Big C said:

MinotStateBeav said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?

Seriously? You're really changing around the issue now... and to your own disadvantage. Suddenly this is about the freedom of individual families to make their own decisions without being judged? What if a father wants to spank his five year old cisgender boy for playing with dolls? You would not judge that? I certainly would.
I would probably kick the father in the ballz for saying cisgender.

The father in the hypothetical didn't say it... but I did. You want some more? Latinx! (Speaking of judging people, when I was growing up, we judged people for what we called "fighting dirty", which included biting, scratching, kicking in the balls, etc... fighting had to be a combination of boxing and wrestling, otherwise no respect.)

I figure I must be on the right track tonight, when I'm pissing off the left and the right.
lol :thumbsup
Unit2Sucks
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movielover said:

I asked you some simple questions which you dodged (expected), and then you delved into more name calling (typical). I'll try one more time, and edit them down for brevity. It's OK if you don't know. (Please save the name calling for somebody else.)

- I can point to two obvious biological reasons why we shouldn't perform sex change procedures on 12 year olds. Can you?

- Why are we speed-tracking Tik Tok diagnosis of children?

- Do you have any idea why this phenomena / fad is primarily affecting young girls?

- Why are you in such a rush to give a 12-year-old girl a double mastectomy, hormone blockers and hormones, when that all could still be done at 22 or 25?

- And what happens to these - typically young girls - if you just leave them the hell alone?


Why do you believe the sky is red? Why are you defending the Stanfurd band? What makes you believe Zubaz look good?

I didn't dodge your questions. They were disingenuous and didn't apply to me. You asked me to defend positions I've never held or advocated.

You seem to be a preeminent doctor, or at least believe your professional opinion carries weight. So tell us, what is your professional background? Where did you do your surgical residency? Why should people seeking gender affirming care come to movielover, guy who regularly falls for Putin's trolls on Twitter and other right wing misinformation, for medical advice?

You are the only one here advocating for a specific medical course of action so you should be able to defend your position. As far as I can tell, everyone else is a small government freedom loving good old fashioned conservative who believes these medical issues should be between patients, families and doctors. You advocate for big government intervention based on your medical expertise so please do enlighten us as to the source of your basis.

If your sole medical experience is from watching Jordan Peterson videos then I will ask you to recommend me a good clinic in Russia to induce my coma in the event I ever develop a debilitating benzos addiction just like your grifter grandmother perving idol.
AunBear89
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Quit making stuff up. What you read or heard in your Right Wing Neo Fascist news bubble doesn't count. I am speaking from experience. You are playing make believe.

You also have very poor comprehension skills.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
dajo9
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Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

dajo9 said:

Big C said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

My strongest opinion on this trans issue is that people spend way too much time worrying about a thing that affects a very small percentage of the population. I know why the right wing wants to make a big issue of it, and it's not because they are trying to help the population at large.

You're out of touch, this is not a marginal phenomenon among kids today. Gender dysphoria is being actively promoted in a growing segment of the education system.
Do you have any actual numbers as to how many kids are involved in these gender issues? A "growing segment" is pretty vague. That could mean it's gone from 10 million to 15 million kids or it could mean it's gone from 20 to 30 kids.

The other side seems just a little too eager to assign them as transgender.


That's just right wing framing

Maybe, maybe not. This is a very new question for our society. How about if we take kids who are, say, 4-11, and just accept and treasure them all as "kids"?

Does your experience suggest that adults are aggressively pushing a "trans" identity on the kids you know about?

I wouldn't use the word "aggressive". I will readily admit to not knowing the full stories, which is why I would say we should slow down a little bit and accept all kids as they are, without labeling them too early.


Everybody is labeled at birth. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and be called a girl - and this goes on for a long time. What do you call the child?

I might just call the child a child. Maybe he wants to be called a girl because he feels more comfortable with girls, and yet we insist on labeling him as a boy -- not just at birth, but continually throughout childhood.

Really, I had expected that my idea of less gender labeling (which might include unisex bathrooms and maybe even gender neutral pronouns for all) would catch more flack from the right, than the left.


How about just not judging the decisions made by families in homes you don't live in?

Seriously? You're really changing around the issue now... and to your own disadvantage. Suddenly this is about the freedom of individual families to make their own decisions without being judged? What if a father wants to spank his five year old cisgender boy for playing with dolls? You would not judge that? I certainly would.


It's always been about the freedom of individuals to make their own decisions without being judged.

You draw the line at abuse. Spanking, done appropriately, is not abuse. From my experience, it isn't productive either.
okaydo
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movielover
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Unit2Sucks said:

movielover said:

I asked you some simple questions which you dodged (expected), and then you delved into more name calling (typical). I'll try one more time, and edit them down for brevity. It's OK if you don't know. (Please save the name calling for somebody else.)

- I can point to two obvious biological reasons why we shouldn't perform sex change procedures on 12 year olds. Can you?

- Why are we speed-tracking Tik Tok diagnosis of children?

- Do you have any idea why this phenomena / fad is primarily affecting young girls?

- Why are you in such a rush to give a 12-year-old girl a double mastectomy, hormone blockers and hormones, when that all could still be done at 22 or 25?

- And what happens to these - typically young girls - if you just leave them the hell alone?


I didn't dodge your questions....

Why should people seeking gender affirming care come to movielover, ...

You are the only one here advocating for a specific medical course of action so you should be able to defend your position. ...



This isn't about "people". It's about CHILDREN, teens and pre-teens.

False. Advocating leaving children alone isn't "medical action". Children have thrived for 5,000 years until the invention of Tik Tok and sexualization of children and the new gender religion.

Yup. You dodged.
Unit2Sucks
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movielover said:

Unit2Sucks said:

movielover said:

I asked you some simple questions which you dodged (expected), and then you delved into more name calling (typical). I'll try one more time, and edit them down for brevity. It's OK if you don't know. (Please save the name calling for somebody else.)

- I can point to two obvious biological reasons why we shouldn't perform sex change procedures on 12 year olds. Can you?

- Why are we speed-tracking Tik Tok diagnosis of children?

- Do you have any idea why this phenomena / fad is primarily affecting young girls?

- Why are you in such a rush to give a 12-year-old girl a double mastectomy, hormone blockers and hormones, when that all could still be done at 22 or 25?

- And what happens to these - typically young girls - if you just leave them the hell alone?


I didn't dodge your questions....

Why should people seeking gender affirming care come to movielover, ...

You are the only one here advocating for a specific medical course of action so you should be able to defend your position. ...



This isn't about "people". It's about CHILDREN, teens and pre-teens.

False. Advocating leaving children alone isn't "medical action". Children have thrived for 5,000 years until the invention of Tik Tok and sexualization of children and the new gender religion.

Yup. You dodged.
There have always been children who thrived and those who suffered. If you cared about children you would both understand and recognize that different children have different needs.

I guess you didn't learn that during your extensive medical training. By the way, you haven't given us a single reason to believe that you have an informed opinion here. Where did you do your training and on what basis have you determined that no child is ever in need of gender affirming care?

I read this opinion and thought - hmm, why didn't this mother reach out to world-reknowned transgender expert movielover of Bear Insider OT board trolling fame? Does she not realize that there is a pre-eminent medical expert who has never fallen for disinformation and has watched enough Jordan Peterson videos to help any struggling parent or child? Missed opportunity but I look forward to the newspaper publishing ML's well written response.

Quote:

As the loving mother of four (plus a "bonus" child), my journey has proven that not only do doctors in Idaho not "push" gender-affirming care onto families, but obtaining health care for trans youth can be quite difficult to get, even when it's needed.

And sometimes, it is very needed.

I know because two of my children struggled with their gender identity. One of them needed gender-affirming health care, which saved their life. The other not only doesn't need gender-affirming medical care, but their quality of life would be negatively impacted if they did receive it.

I come from a traditional Mormon background, working as a stay-at-home wife and mom, homeschooling my children and even not having a TV in the house. My ability to support my trans kids is a credit to my oldest, who came out as gay years before it became apparent that two of my other kids had gender dysphoria. Each of my children are unique, different people with unique, different wants and needs. I love them equally, but if one child scrapes their knee, I would not offer Band-Aids to all of them. Such are the ramifications of broad-sweeping legislation as House Bill 71 that affects all young people as if they were the same person in the same situation.

...
After an incredible amount of paperwork, permissions, sessions and visits, we finally got John on testosterone hormone therapy, and he began his transition. As soon as he started taking testosterone, he came back to life. He joked, laughed, was energetic, and was no longer talking about his death. He was completely and utterly changed. That was six years ago.

John is attending college, and unless he reveals this information, people don't know he is transgender. He is thriving now a complete 180 degree turn from how he was when he first came into our family.

Gender-affirming care saved his life. There is no question about that. He would not have lasted two or three more years without care.
...
Not all trans kids need gender-affirming care; some need to wait, others cannot wait. The answer for Harper is not hormones, yet. However, that is something we understand because of our experience with John and because of the highly individualized care we've spent years working on. Despite knowing Harper has gender dysphoria, none of the therapists or medical providers have said a single word about hormone therapy for Harper. Not one. I can guarantee doctors are not "pushing" this kind of care onto kids who don't need it.

movielover
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So out of four children, two are transgender and one is gay?

The most simple question: what happens to a child with gender dysphoria who isn't operated on?

*crickets*

Her family has a parallel to the seemingly disproportionate number of Hollywood children who are coming out as transgender.
Unit2Sucks
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movielover said:

So out of four children, two are transgender and one is gay?

The most simple question: what happens to a child with gender dysphoria who isn't operated on?

*crickets*

Her family has a parallel to the seemingly disproportionate number of Hollywood children who are coming out as transgender.
5 children, one of whom was a troubled teen that they adopted. Simple facts have always proved elusive for you. Based on the disclosures in the article, she seems like a very caring mother who is doing what she believes is best for her children, and one that has been informed by the best medical care she has been able to find.

Sounds like you are attacking them for their experience - is that based on your rigorous medical training as well? Perhaps you will claim that this religious mormon family is to "blame" because they homeschooled their kids and didn't own a TV but it's always hard to imagine how you manipulate the various conspiracy theories that form your worldview when you try to support your agenda. The finest example is you claiming that Russia invaded Ukraine because Ukraine violated an agreement that had nothing to do with Russia. That makes perfect sense when you start with the outcome and work backwards to rationalize it.

Please feel free to share the draft response to the newspaper you plan to submit declaring why this caring mother is wrong and about why your medical expertise would support taking no action ever. I'm sure it will be quite convincing.
movielover
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Not attacking. I find it puzzling that her counselors apparently relegated the child's other issues - anxiety, depression, and premenstrual dysphoric disorder - to focus primarily on the late 4th-quarter discovery of gender dysphoria.

"Even so, we were many times discouraged from treating his gender dysphoria. We searched for physicians, ..."

It sounds like they didn't agree with the diagnosis of their professionals, so they sought those that would affirm their own diagnosis. (She didn't state that she was a trained psychotherapist.)

Unit2Sucks
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movielover said:

Not attacking. I find it puzzling that her counselors apparently relegated the child's other issues - anxiety, depression, and premenstrual dysphoric disorder - to focus primarily on the late 4th-quarter discovery of gender dysphoria.

"Even so, we were many times discouraged from treating his gender dysphoria. We searched for physicians, ..."

It sounds like they didn't agree with the diagnosis of their professionals, so they sought those that would affirm their own diagnosis. (She didn't state that she was a trained psychotherapist.)


Can you tell us more about your formal training as a psychotherapist? How many Jordan Peterson podcasts did you have to listen to in order to receive your MD?

What health care decisions do you think people should be able to make without your approval? Or do you propose more GOP big government bureaucracy to resolve this issue.

I know that I'm out of touch with the new anti-freedom GOP but I still believe people should have some agency in making medical decisions. I guess that makes me old-fashioned.
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

movielover said:

So out of four children, two are transgender and one is gay?

The most simple question: what happens to a child with gender dysphoria who isn't operated on?

*crickets*

Her family has a parallel to the seemingly disproportionate number of Hollywood children who are coming out as transgender.
5 children, one of whom was a troubled teen that they adopted. Simple facts have always proved elusive for you. Based on the disclosures in the article, she seems like a very caring mother who is doing what she believes is best for her children, and one that has been informed by the best medical care she has been able to find.

Sounds like you are attacking them for their experience - is that based on your rigorous medical training as well? Perhaps you will claim that this religious mormon family is to "blame" because they homeschooled their kids and didn't own a TV but it's always hard to imagine how you manipulate the various conspiracy theories that form your worldview when you try to support your agenda. The finest example is you claiming that Russia invaded Ukraine because Ukraine violated an agreement that had nothing to do with Russia. That makes perfect sense when you start with the outcome and work backwards to rationalize it.

Please feel free to share the draft response to the newspaper you plan to submit declaring why this caring mother is wrong and about why your medical expertise would support taking no action ever. I'm sure it will be quite convincing.

This is just a case of a mother projecting her misguided modern woke dogma onto her children, Munchausen by proxy.

The natural base rate of homosexuality/transgenderism is not 50%, it's 10 to 25 times less than that. So when you have several kids from the same mother exhibiting this rare behavior, it is the reflection of that family's dogma rather than the organic tendencies of the children.

These kids have been conditioned to believe that their mental well-being goes through this most radical physical operation and treatment. Being trans has become some form of exalted status that would solve their internal problems, yet around 40% of trans people attempt suicide, a rate that is more than 10 times the base rate.

This rate as well is consistent across countries and cultural environment that range from very tolerant to highly intolerant, which indicates that their suicidal motivations are not driven by intolerance:

Quote:

Transgender suicidal ideation rate in Iran similar to those of Western countries

As many as 70% of transgender men and transgender women in Iran experienced suicidal ideation, according to results of an observational retrospective study published in Journal of Psychiatric Research.

This finding was "surprisingly similar" to those of Western studies despite transgender individuals in Iran facing more significant difficulties in a non-Western sociopolitical context, the authors said.

https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20210819/transgender-suicidal-ideation-rate-in-iran-similar-to-those-of-western-countries


movielover
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Unit2 wouldn't answer my simple question about major biological changes everyone experiences, and no medical degree is required.

Puberty / adolescence - when hormones are raging, there are massive physical and mental changes, and many have a difficult time.

Brain fully developed, experts now reportedly say it happens at 25.

I can't see why anyone under 18 would be put on these powerful drugs and hormones, and realistically wouldn't even suggest it for anyone under 25.

According to Dr. Peterson, the top research clinical psychologist who has studied this phenomena is in Canada. And what happens to these newfound, newly discovered, teenagers, if you leave them alone? A high percentage identify as lesbian.

I wonder if this Mormon Dragon Mom ever got her son / they into a regular physical education regiment? Dramatically easier than surgery, heavy hormones and medication.

Dr. Peterson has also mentioned another psychological issue which disproportionately afflicts young girls - anorexia. He made some reference to the sensitivity of housing young teens with this condition together, in that they can feed off of each others condition. (I was hiking, so may have missed some nuance.)
Eastern Oregon Bear
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Cal88 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

movielover said:

So out of four children, two are transgender and one is gay?

The most simple question: what happens to a child with gender dysphoria who isn't operated on?

*crickets*

Her family has a parallel to the seemingly disproportionate number of Hollywood children who are coming out as transgender.
5 children, one of whom was a troubled teen that they adopted. Simple facts have always proved elusive for you. Based on the disclosures in the article, she seems like a very caring mother who is doing what she believes is best for her children, and one that has been informed by the best medical care she has been able to find.

Sounds like you are attacking them for their experience - is that based on your rigorous medical training as well? Perhaps you will claim that this religious mormon family is to "blame" because they homeschooled their kids and didn't own a TV but it's always hard to imagine how you manipulate the various conspiracy theories that form your worldview when you try to support your agenda. The finest example is you claiming that Russia invaded Ukraine because Ukraine violated an agreement that had nothing to do with Russia. That makes perfect sense when you start with the outcome and work backwards to rationalize it.

Please feel free to share the draft response to the newspaper you plan to submit declaring why this caring mother is wrong and about why your medical expertise would support taking no action ever. I'm sure it will be quite convincing.

This is just a case of a mother projecting her misguided modern woke dogma onto her children, Munchausen by proxy.

The natural base rate of homosexuality/transgenderism is not 50%, it's 10 to 25 times less than that. So when you have several kids from the same mother exhibiting this rare behavior, it is the reflection of that family's dogma rather than the organic tendencies of the children.
So, you're allowing that the natural base rate is 2% - 5% yet arguing for policies that allow 0% to be treated. OK, at least you've made that clear.
movielover
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I'm sure he's allowing for physical education (depression), talk therapy, etc.. If a high percentage of these young girls do eventually become lesbian, why perform ghastly surgery which will never come close to natural?

Chloe Cole mentioned a number of significant issues in her 2-hour therapy session with Dr. Peterson which were never explained to her. Her mastectomy scars never properly healed. She can never breastfeed. She's unsure if she can ever have children, a desire she realized she had at 16 when taking a high school psychology class.

As Dr. Peterson has pointed out, why go to the most extreme actions?

He said he'd spend a lot of time in therapy with someone like her "unpacking" her experiences and thought processes. And that her experiences of teenage awkwardness, being a bit of a "Tomboy", enjoying being confident (like boys), enjoying sports, not desiring attention to her body, etc., were "well within the bounds of normal adolescent feelings". And that this would take at least a year of weekly sessions.

She also realized after her surgery her dating pool would be extremely limited, and in her view those primarily interested in a relationship with her were fetishist/ kinksters.
Unit2Sucks
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Cal88 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

movielover said:

So out of four children, two are transgender and one is gay?

The most simple question: what happens to a child with gender dysphoria who isn't operated on?

*crickets*

Her family has a parallel to the seemingly disproportionate number of Hollywood children who are coming out as transgender.
5 children, one of whom was a troubled teen that they adopted. Simple facts have always proved elusive for you. Based on the disclosures in the article, she seems like a very caring mother who is doing what she believes is best for her children, and one that has been informed by the best medical care she has been able to find.

Sounds like you are attacking them for their experience - is that based on your rigorous medical training as well? Perhaps you will claim that this religious mormon family is to "blame" because they homeschooled their kids and didn't own a TV but it's always hard to imagine how you manipulate the various conspiracy theories that form your worldview when you try to support your agenda. The finest example is you claiming that Russia invaded Ukraine because Ukraine violated an agreement that had nothing to do with Russia. That makes perfect sense when you start with the outcome and work backwards to rationalize it.

Please feel free to share the draft response to the newspaper you plan to submit declaring why this caring mother is wrong and about why your medical expertise would support taking no action ever. I'm sure it will be quite convincing.

This is just a case of a mother projecting her misguided modern woke dogma onto her children, Munchausen by proxy.

The natural base rate of homosexuality/transgenderism is not 50%, it's 10 to 25 times less than that. So when you have several kids from the same mother exhibiting this rare behavior, it is the reflection of that family's dogma rather than the organic tendencies of the children.

These kids have been conditioned to believe that their mental well-being goes through this most radical physical operation and treatment. Being trans has become some form of exalted status that would solve their internal problems, yet around 40% of trans people attempt suicide, a rate that is more than 10 times the base rate.

This rate as well is consistent across countries and cultural environment that range from very tolerant to highly intolerant, which indicates that their suicidal motivations are not driven by intolerance:

Quote:

Transgender suicidal ideation rate in Iran similar to those of Western countries

As many as 70% of transgender men and transgender women in Iran experienced suicidal ideation, according to results of an observational retrospective study published in Journal of Psychiatric Research.

This finding was "surprisingly similar" to those of Western studies despite transgender individuals in Iran facing more significant difficulties in a non-Western sociopolitical context, the authors said.

https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20210819/transgender-suicidal-ideation-rate-in-iran-similar-to-those-of-western-countries



Imagine my surprise when this guy shows up with propaganda poorly fit to the question at hand. Forgive me for laughing at your assumption that this conservative mormon home-schooling mom in Idaho who doesn't own a TV is "projecting her modern woke dogma." Nice try.

The rest of your post betrays your complete misunderstanding of both statistics and cause and effect. The fact that a small sample size doesn't reflect population-level statistics isn't surprising at all. A gay friend of a friend was one of 3 gay siblings whose parents were pastors. That doesn't mean that 100% of pastors' children are gay either. Similarly, you get so close to understanding the real message between elevated suicide ideation rates in transgender youth but then your agenda demanded that you come to the wrong conclusion. it's remarkable that your intentional, studied misinformation aligns so closely with ML's naive, boiled onion brain version.

movielover said:

Unit2 wouldn't answer my simple question about major biological changes everyone experiences, and no medical degree is required.

Puberty / adolescence - when hormones are raging, there are massive physical and mental changes, and many have a difficult time.

Brain fully developed, experts now reportedly say it happens at 25.

I can't see why anyone under 18 would be put on these powerful drugs and hormones, and realistically wouldn't even suggest it for anyone under 25.

According to Dr. Peterson, the top research clinical psychologist who has studied this phenomena is in Canada. And what happens to these newfound, newly discovered, teenagers, if you leave them alone? A high percentage identify as lesbian.

I wonder if this Mormon Dragon Mom ever got her son / they into a regular physical education regiment? Dramatically easier than surgery, heavy hormones and medication.

Dr. Peterson has also mentioned another psychological issue which disproportionately afflicts young girls - anorexia. He made some reference to the sensitivity of housing young teens with this condition together, in that they can feed off of each others condition. (I was hiking, so may have missed some nuance.)

I won't answer your silly questions until you tells us what your basis is for your expert opinion. It would appear that you obtained your PhD entirely from watching Jordan Peterson youtube videos, but I am open to you providing your alternative basis for your claims, if you have one.

My point continues to remain that in the US we the people have never agreed to leave healthcare policy or individual health care decisions to big government enacting Christian fascist policies. If ML wants to raise his children according to the rantings of a doctor who recently felt it necessary to have Russian doctors medically induce a coma so that he could resolve his debilitating benzos addiction (or was it because he fantasized about his grandmother genitalia?), that's up to him, but the rest of us should be permitted to work with licensed healthcare professionals without interference from big government authoritarian religious fanatics.
movielover
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And de-transitioning young adults are free to open the floodgates of massive lawsuits, like in the UK and Chloe Cole. A child can't "consent", and it must be informed consent.

Yes, Dr. Peterson has battled depression and Canadian and American doctors offered him, allegedly, no substantive help. So he went to Russia.



Unit2Sucks wrote: "There have always been children who thrived and those who suffered. If you cared about children you would both understand and recognize that different children have different needs."

But 20 years ago those alleged "needs" from a 12 year old weren't a sex change operation! We understood that 12, 14, 16 year olds were undergoing big cchanges.we also didn't subject kindergartens to Drag Queen hour. It's bonkers.
Unit2Sucks
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movielover said:

And de-transitioning young adults are free to open the floodgates of massive lawsuits, like in the UK and Chloe Cole. A child can't "consent", and it must be informed consent.

Yes, Dr. Peterson has battled depression and Canadian and American doctors offered him, allegedly, no substantive help. So he went to Russia.


This is hilarious on multiple levels. In addition to reminding us that you don't just rely on crackpots like Peterson - you also look to Kremlin propagandists to inform your anti-American views. I wonder whether the Vulkan Files will reveal how many of the specific accounts you follow - like your hero bebo - are actually sponsored by the Kremlin.

But even funnier, in a thread where you argue that the government should be made larger and more powerful to prevent people from obtaining healthcare that you don't believe they should have access to, based primarily upon your studious patronage of grifter motivational speakers and fake social media accounts sponsored by America's enemies, you then make the case that Peterson was forced to go outside the healthcare system to obtain the medical care he needed. So it's fine for people like you and Peterson to demand the health care system not treat the sorts of problems that neither you nor he are qualified to weigh in on while also claiming that the health care system needs to treat other sorts of problems which it actually already treats.

The problem with Peterson isn't that he suffered from untreatable depression, it's that he became addicted to benzos. In fact, his entire suspect story has nothing to do with depression - his claim is that he became physically (but not mentally) addicted to benzos because of an autoimmune reaction to food. I would caution people not to feel too much empathy for Peterson because he has argued to his followers that they shouldn't feel too much empathy. It's amazing how frequently these cult followings pop up around these right wing grifters and how often these right wing grifters, like Rush Limbaugh, end up being pill poppers who admonish other people for having dependencies as being a result of weakness or other deficiency while simultaneously excusing their own.

Peterson is an obvious grifter fraud and I'm 0% surprised that you hang on his every word.
movielover
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What's your medical degree, and what books have you published?

I have recently met two mothers grappling with their teens believing that they are / may be transgendered. They're both divorced, and both have mentioned the overwhelming influence of social media. Both children are girls. Imagine that.
Unit2Sucks
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movielover said:

What's your medical degree, and what books have you published?

I have recently met two mothers grappling with their teens believing that they are / may be transgendered. They're both divorced, and both have mentioned the overwhelming influence of social media. Both children are girls. Imagine that.
I am not a trained physician which is why I don't provide medical advice. I suggest that people with medical issues seek care from licensed professionals equipped to provide the care. If you were capable of engaging in this discussion you would have understood that because I've said it time and time again.

On what basis have the mothers sought your care? Did you let them know that you learned everything you know about transgender issues from social media?

If not, what qualifications do you have to provide any advice to anyone about anything?
movielover
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Pushing violence and drugs?

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