Unit2Sucks said:

---

concordtom said:

---

There's no way to bring manufacturing home given our minimum wage laws (and regulations) price us out of a global market. Talk of this by all politicians is just an empty rallying call.

---

Tom, you can't be serious.

Minimum wage has virtually no impact on manufacturing wages in the US. Federal minimum wage is still $7.25 per hour and we do not have a ready supply of manufacturing workers at that salary. Minimum wage jobs are predominantly in food prep and service-related work and represent only about 1% of hourly workers.

Fearmongering over any raise to the $7 minimum wage bankrupting small businesses is just GOP fearmongering. Sure, not all businesses can survive at $15, $20 or beyond, but the number of people willing to work below $10 per hour (which is far from a living wage in the US) is quite small.

Ford pays its Mexican autoworkers a minimum wage of ~$8.25 per hour. Autoworkers in China make $2-4 per hour (source). Autoworkers in the US make ~$28 per hour (source).

There are certain industries and products where manufacturing in the US still makes a ton of sense. My water heater, furnace, A/C compressor, garage door opener and all of my appliances (w/d, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc.) were all made in the US.

---

Healthy debate!
Thank you!

I haven't done reading or analysis on the numbers in decades. I appreciate you putting numbers to the discussion.

I think the 2-4 in China vs 28 in US supports my posit.

No?

We live in a globally competitive world. The more we raise wages by mandate rather than through the equalizing invisible hand, the more we price ourselves out of domestic production - the more we raise fast food wages the more food costs for ourselves.

Of course, I want everyone to have a living wage. But it's not an economic solution to mandate where price levels should be, either for goods or for labor.

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

concordtom said:

---

There's no way to bring manufacturing home given our minimum wage laws (and regulations) price us out of a global market. Talk of this by all politicians is just an empty rallying call.

---

Tom, you can't be serious.

Minimum wage has virtually no impact on manufacturing wages in the US. Federal minimum wage is still $7.25 per hour and we do not have a ready supply of manufacturing workers at that salary. Minimum wage jobs are predominantly in food prep and service-related work and represent only about 1% of hourly workers.

Fearmongering over any raise to the $7 minimum wage bankrupting small businesses is just GOP fearmongering. Sure, not all businesses can survive at $15, $20 or beyond, but the number of people willing to work below $10 per hour (which is far from a living wage in the US) is quite small.

Ford pays its Mexican autoworkers a minimum wage of ~$8.25 per hour. Autoworkers in China make $2-4 per hour (source). Autoworkers in the US make ~$28 per hour (source).

There are certain industries and products where manufacturing in the US still makes a ton of sense. My water heater, furnace, A/C compressor, garage door opener and all of my appliances (w/d, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc.) were all made in the US.

---

I think the 2-4 in China vs 28 in US supports my posit.

No?

We live in a globally competitive world. The more we raise wages by mandate rather than through the equalizing invisible hand, the more we price ourselves out of domestic production - the more we raise fast food wages the more food costs for ourselves.

Of course, I want everyone to have a living wage. But it's not an economic solution to mandate where price levels should be, either for goods or for labor.

---

If the market wages in the US are 4x minimum wage and Chinese wages are less than half minimum wage, how is minimum wage relevant?

We live in a country with a high standard of living and the living wage is well above what it is in other countries. That is why we aren't cost-competitive with labor, not because of minimum wage.

I think you are missing that minimum wage establishes a floor and that we can't force people to work for it. The national unemployment rate is below 4% which isn't an environment likely to push wages down.

I'm not an economist but I feel like this is all pretty intuitive. Can you help me understand why you think there is an opportunity to lower wages for US workers and how that would benefit Americans?

Unit2Sucks said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

concordtom said:

---

There's no way to bring manufacturing home given our minimum wage laws (and regulations) price us out of a global market. Talk of this by all politicians is just an empty rallying call.

---

Tom, you can't be serious.

Minimum wage has virtually no impact on manufacturing wages in the US. Federal minimum wage is still $7.25 per hour and we do not have a ready supply of manufacturing workers at that salary. Minimum wage jobs are predominantly in food prep and service-related work and represent only about 1% of hourly workers.

Fearmongering over any raise to the $7 minimum wage bankrupting small businesses is just GOP fearmongering. Sure, not all businesses can survive at $15, $20 or beyond, but the number of people willing to work below $10 per hour (which is far from a living wage in the US) is quite small.

Ford pays its Mexican autoworkers a minimum wage of ~$8.25 per hour. Autoworkers in China make $2-4 per hour (source). Autoworkers in the US make ~$28 per hour (source).

There are certain industries and products where manufacturing in the US still makes a ton of sense. My water heater, furnace, A/C compressor, garage door opener and all of my appliances (w/d, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc.) were all made in the US.

---

I think the 2-4 in China vs 28 in US supports my posit.

No?

We live in a globally competitive world. The more we raise wages by mandate rather than through the equalizing invisible hand, the more we price ourselves out of domestic production - the more we raise fast food wages the more food costs for ourselves.

Of course, I want everyone to have a living wage. But it's not an economic solution to mandate where price levels should be, either for goods or for labor.

---

If the market wages in the US are 4x minimum wage and Chinese wages are less than half minimum wage, how is minimum wage relevant?

We live in a country with a high standard of living and the living wage is well above what it is in other countries. That is why we aren't cost-competitive with labor, not because of minimum wage.

I think you are missing that minimum wage establishes a floor and that we can't force people to work for it. The national unemployment rate is below 4% which isn't an environment likely to push wages down.

I'm not an economist but I feel like this is all pretty intuitive. Can you help me understand why you think there is an opportunity to lower wages for US workers and how that would benefit Americans?

---

1. There are work opportunities (or would be, rather) for teens and above that need to acquire the experience. They can't get that because A) they are competing with older people and B) who's going to pay CA min wage for certain jobs?

2. Potential jobs disappear because it's too expensive to bother.

In one of my Econ classes we had to repeatedly draw adjusted Supply & Demand curves based upon a storyline of imposed "externalities", such as:
Tariffs
Quotas
Min wage
Environment regulations
Safety regulations
Use taxes
Income taxes
Value added taxes
Etc etc …

Certainly, we can all agree that some externalities should be applied to pure invisible hand curves. For instance, a paper mill that pollutes a river and destroys fishery businesses, not to mention kills locals with poisoned drinking water.

But all externalities disrupt economic efficiency in marketplaces. That's where I'm coming from.

We think an awful lot of you, your logic, and your party, too!

#turdemoji

MinotStateBeav said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

movielover said:

---

The GOP / UniParty goes along with $2.2 Trillion Deficits as far as the eye can see, and also work to remove Trump. It's an insiders game where Congressmen work to become wealthy, not be serious leaders.

Perot, the Tea Party, and now MAGA are threats to their $$$ games.

President Trump was (is) the Outsider who wanted to cut Federal spending in some departments 10%, secure our border / build a wall, reset trade deals, and bring manufacturing home. The UniParty fought all of that. The Military Industrial Congressional Complex tried to go to war with Iran upwards of fourth times under President Trump - according to Colonel Douglass McGregor.

---

Please tell us more about how Trump was too weak to accomplish any of his goals when he was President

---

Other than 1 year, the dems pretty much lawfared his entire presidency with stupid trials that resulted in nothing other than keeping him from doing anything and trying to stagnate our country. I mean you can feign ignorance here but you're not fooling anybody. You literally tried to paint his supreme court pick as a gang rapist. Absolute clowns. Dems had every media outlet working in their back pocket painting everything he tried to do in some kind of criminal conspiracy. "Trump wants to pull us out of Syria..why does he hate the kurds!" "Trump wants us out of Afghanistan, but its a Russian Plot so that the Taliban will assassinate US Troops!!". Every single media outlet was pushing this garbage and driving dems into absolute ragefests. You are just an embarrassing party and people at the moment.

---

It was not just Dems who tried to paint Amy Coney Barrett as a gang rapist. IIRC, it was a Republican who said he thought she used that stare of hers to hypnotize her victims, them... boom!

/EDIT/ Thinking this through, that might have actually been bearister who claimed that...

movielover said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

movielover said:

---

The GOP / UniParty goes along with $2.2 Trillion Deficits as far as the eye can see, and also work to remove Trump. It's an insiders game where Congressmen work to become wealthy, not be serious leaders.

Perot, the Tea Party, and now MAGA are threats to their $$$ games.

President Trump was (is) the Outsider who wanted to cut Federal spending in some departments 10%, secure our border / build a wall, reset trade deals, and bring manufacturing home. The UniParty fought all of that. The Military Industrial Congressional Complex tried to go to war with Iran upwards of fourth times under President Trump - according to Colonel Douglass McGregor.

---

Please tell us more about how Trump was too weak to accomplish any of his goals when he was President

---

Other than 1 year, the dems pretty much lawfared his entire presidency with stupid trials that resulted in nothing other than keeping him from doing anything and trying to stagnate our country. I mean you can feign ignorance here but you're not fooling anybody. You literally tried to paint his supreme court pick as a gang rapist. Absolute clowns. Dems had every media outlet working in their back pocket painting everything he tried to do in some kind of criminal conspiracy. "Trump wants to pull us out of Syria..why does he hate the kurds!" "Trump wants us out of Afghanistan, but its a Russian Plot so that the Taliban will assassinate US Troops!!". Every single media outlet was pushing this garbage and driving dems into absolute ragefests. You are just an embarrassing party and people at the moment.

---

Exactly. There were so many lies and fabrications, and the FIB / C-A after low-level and high-level folks in his administration.

Russian server in Trump Tower - false
Trump colluding w Russians - false
FIB / C-A sets up George Papadopoulos
FIB / C-A sets up American asset, Carter Page
Honeypot Azra Turk sent at George Papadopoulos in London
Fraudulent FISA warrants
Intell & Treasury spy on candidate & President Trump
General Michael Flynn railroaded w false claims
Now Sidney Powell overcharged w 7 Felonies in a deep blue state, only to all be retracted in a plea deal for misdemeanors... the system burying her in legal costs and potentially losing her law license if she was found guilty on just 1 charge.

Meanwhile, alleged J6 FIB / C-A Bullhorn leader went from being a Top 10 FIB Most wanted... to being swept under the rug.

Will the Libs who recently stormed the Capitol get years in prison, not get counsel, be barred Brady material for years, etc.???

Banana Republic.

---

Pee Tape - true

I really think they need to donate a lot of money to a law school Innocence Project to secure new trials for their many brethren that have either pled to felonies or were convicted by juries and are serving time.

tRump was able to pardon some of his felonious associates on his way out the door (Flynn, Manafort, Stone, Steve Bannon,etc.)

There will be more felony pleas and convictions within the next year, hopefully including the Fat Man himself….so fellas, with regard to this situation and donating money….

sycasey said:

---

But if Trump was such a great politician and leader, how did he get stymied by all of this? He also had a trifecta to start his term. What did he accomplish with that besides tax cuts?

---

Some would argue the tax cuts was not an accomplishment, but a special interest move for the rich.

concordtom said:

---

sycasey said:

---

But if Trump was such a great politician and leader, how did he get stymied by all of this? He also had a trifecta to start his term. What did he accomplish with that besides tax cuts?

---

Some would argue the tax cuts was not an accomplishment, but a special interest move for the rich.

---

Trump supporters will claim that the $90 (average tax refund increase) they received is $90 more than the Democrats would give them of THEIR MONEY back.

concordtom said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

concordtom said:

---

There's no way to bring manufacturing home given our minimum wage laws (and regulations) price us out of a global market. Talk of this by all politicians is just an empty rallying call.

---

Tom, you can't be serious.

Minimum wage has virtually no impact on manufacturing wages in the US. Federal minimum wage is still $7.25 per hour and we do not have a ready supply of manufacturing workers at that salary. Minimum wage jobs are predominantly in food prep and service-related work and represent only about 1% of hourly workers.

Fearmongering over any raise to the $7 minimum wage bankrupting small businesses is just GOP fearmongering. Sure, not all businesses can survive at $15, $20 or beyond, but the number of people willing to work below $10 per hour (which is far from a living wage in the US) is quite small.

Ford pays its Mexican autoworkers a minimum wage of ~$8.25 per hour. Autoworkers in China make $2-4 per hour (source). Autoworkers in the US make ~$28 per hour (source).

There are certain industries and products where manufacturing in the US still makes a ton of sense. My water heater, furnace, A/C compressor, garage door opener and all of my appliances (w/d, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc.) were all made in the US.

---

Healthy debate!
Thank you!

I haven't done reading or analysis on the numbers in decades. I appreciate you putting numbers to the discussion.

I think the 2-4 in China vs 28 in US supports my posit.

No?

We live in a globally competitive world. The more we raise wages by mandate rather than through the equalizing invisible hand, the more we price ourselves out of domestic production - the more we raise fast food wages the more food costs for ourselves.

Of course, I want everyone to have a living wage. But it's not an economic solution to mandate where price levels should be, either for goods or for labor.

---

If we are going to continue down the road of mandating wages then how about this one: a CEO can only make X times more than the minimum worker in his/her company. And this includes his/her entire compensation package.

#weareoutofwhack

I'll agree to that!
In a heartbeat.

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

sycasey said:

---

But if Trump was such a great politician and leader, how did he get stymied by all of this? He also had a trifecta to start his term. What did he accomplish with that besides tax cuts?

---

Some would argue the tax cuts was not an accomplishment, but a special interest move for the rich.

---

Trump supporters will claim that the $90 (average tax refund increase) they received is $90 more than the Democrats would give them of THEIR MONEY back.

---

It's not the $90 per voter.
It's the $90,000+ for the few very rich people.



MAGA should look at tax rates in what they think was their golden age.

The 2023 tax yearmeaning the return you'll file in 2024will have the same seven federal income tax brackets as the 2022-2023 season: 10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35% and 37%.
Under Eisenhower, it was 90%. That's too extreme for me, but you get the point.

Add in sales tax, payroll tax, use taxes (bridges) and our tax structure is FLAT.





Flat tax is a path toward wider income inequality,



which leads to social unrest.



You think the only thing they are fighting about is who gets to call Jerusalem theirs? No. The income disparities are immense. And that breeds jealousies. We see it in this country, too.




Now, I'm sure WifeIsAFurd will educate me once again how I'm wrong. I welcome his response.

Note:
In 1987,88,89, the lowest tax bracket paid 15%, while the highest paid just 28%. Wow.



This chart taken as a whole, we are still operating under the Reagan tax structure hegemony.

Pilot who tried to crash passenger plane is loving father - neighbors



https://mol.im/a/12663463

*From Pleasant Hill. Manchurian Candidate?

Question not covered in media:

If 'Shroom Boy had been successful turning off the plane's engines, could they have been turned back on to avoid a crash?

*Just another example of how the media overlooks a key question. Perhaps the answer guts the cataclysmic narrative.

bearister said:

---

Pilot who tried to crash passenger plane is loving father - neighbors

https://mol.im/a/12663463

*From Pleasant Hill. Manchurian Candidate?

---

Drugs.

movielover said:

---

bearister said:

---

Pilot who tried to crash passenger plane is loving father - neighbors

https://mol.im/a/12663463

*From Pleasant Hill. Manchurian Candidate?

---

Drugs.

---

Why is the value of his house relevant?

I wonder if Aaron goes goofy on shrooms?

bearister said:

---

Question not covered in media:

If 'Shroom Boy had been successful turning off the plane's engines, could they have been turned back on to avoid a crash?

*Just another example of how the media overlooks a key question. Perhaps the answer guts the cataclysmic narrative.

---

Disagree. Saying they maybe could restart the engines is like arguing that Russian Roulette is not that unsafe because 5 of the chambers are empty.

concordtom said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

sycasey said:

---

But if Trump was such a great politician and leader, how did he get stymied by all of this? He also had a trifecta to start his term. What did he accomplish with that besides tax cuts?

---

Some would argue the tax cuts was not an accomplishment, but a special interest move for the rich.

---

Trump supporters will claim that the $90 (average tax refund increase) they received is $90 more than the Democrats would give them of THEIR MONEY back.

---

It's not the $90 per voter.
It's the $90,000+ for the few very rich people.



MAGA should look at tax rates in what they think was their golden age.

The 2023 tax yearmeaning the return you'll file in 2024will have the same seven federal income tax brackets as the 2022-2023 season: 10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35% and 37%.
Under Eisenhower, it was 90%. That's too extreme for me, but you get the point.

Add in sales tax, payroll tax, use taxes (bridges) and our tax structure is FLAT.





Flat tax is a path toward wider income inequality,



which leads to social unrest.



You think the only thing they are fighting about is who gets to call Jerusalem theirs? No. The income disparities are immense. And that breeds jealousies. We see it in this country, too.




Now, I'm sure WifeIsAFurd will educate me once again how I'm wrong. I welcome his response.

Note:
In 1987,88,89, the lowest tax bracket paid 15%, while the highest paid just 28%. Wow.



This chart taken as a whole, we are still operating under the Reagan tax structure hegemony.

---

And thank God we are.

There is a common misconception that high-income Americans are not paying much in taxes compared to what they used to. Proponents of this view often point to the 1950s, when the top federal income tax rate was 91 percent for most of the decade.[1] However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes. As a result, the tax burden on high-income households today is only slightly lower than what these households faced in the 1950s.

The data shows that, between 1950 and 1959, the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid an average of 42.0 percent of their income in federal, state, and local taxes. Since then, the average effective tax rate of the top 1 percent has declined slightly overall.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/#:~:text=Proponents%20of%20this%20view%20often,of%20their%20income%20in%20taxes.

tequila4kapp said:

---

concordtom said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

sycasey said:

---

But if Trump was such a great politician and leader, how did he get stymied by all of this? He also had a trifecta to start his term. What did he accomplish with that besides tax cuts?

---

Some would argue the tax cuts was not an accomplishment, but a special interest move for the rich.

---

Trump supporters will claim that the $90 (average tax refund increase) they received is $90 more than the Democrats would give them of THEIR MONEY back.

---

It's not the $90 per voter.
It's the $90,000+ for the few very rich people.



MAGA should look at tax rates in what they think was their golden age.

The 2023 tax yearmeaning the return you'll file in 2024will have the same seven federal income tax brackets as the 2022-2023 season: 10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35% and 37%.
Under Eisenhower, it was 90%. That's too extreme for me, but you get the point.

Add in sales tax, payroll tax, use taxes (bridges) and our tax structure is FLAT.





Flat tax is a path toward wider income inequality,



which leads to social unrest.



You think the only thing they are fighting about is who gets to call Jerusalem theirs? No. The income disparities are immense. And that breeds jealousies. We see it in this country, too.




Now, I'm sure WifeIsAFurd will educate me once again how I'm wrong. I welcome his response.

Note:
In 1987,88,89, the lowest tax bracket paid 15%, while the highest paid just 28%. Wow.



This chart taken as a whole, we are still operating under the Reagan tax structure hegemony.

---

And thank God we are.

---

Yeah, trillions in debt is fine because Saint Ronnie said so.

dimitrig said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

concordtom said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

sycasey said:

---

But if Trump was such a great politician and leader, how did he get stymied by all of this? He also had a trifecta to start his term. What did he accomplish with that besides tax cuts?

---

Some would argue the tax cuts was not an accomplishment, but a special interest move for the rich.

---

Trump supporters will claim that the $90 (average tax refund increase) they received is $90 more than the Democrats would give them of THEIR MONEY back.

---

It's not the $90 per voter.
It's the $90,000+ for the few very rich people.



MAGA should look at tax rates in what they think was their golden age.

The 2023 tax yearmeaning the return you'll file in 2024will have the same seven federal income tax brackets as the 2022-2023 season: 10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35% and 37%.
Under Eisenhower, it was 90%. That's too extreme for me, but you get the point.

Add in sales tax, payroll tax, use taxes (bridges) and our tax structure is FLAT.





Flat tax is a path toward wider income inequality,



which leads to social unrest.



You think the only thing they are fighting about is who gets to call Jerusalem theirs? No. The income disparities are immense. And that breeds jealousies. We see it in this country, too.




Now, I'm sure WifeIsAFurd will educate me once again how I'm wrong. I welcome his response.

Note:
In 1987,88,89, the lowest tax bracket paid 15%, while the highest paid just 28%. Wow.



This chart taken as a whole, we are still operating under the Reagan tax structure hegemony.

---

And thank God we are.

---

Yeah, trillions in debt is fine because Saint Ronnie said so.

---

See, especially, the 1st 3 columns. Revenue and spending have increased annually forever, almost without exception. Spending has increased at a much faster rate. We have a spending problem, not a revenue problem.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/hist01z1_fy2024.xlsx

(Side note, we've been running deficits since Clinton - the only President in the last 50 years to run a surplus and the only one to do it more than once since Eisenhower).