concordtom said:Republicans have wanted for a long time to give No Quarter to anyone who has anything to do with south of the border origins. It's a racists thing, in my opinion, but never mind that.oski003 said:
Other immigration loopholes can be filled in place of a wall. Babies born on U.S. soil should not automatically be citizens. Those seeking asylum should do so at embassies, not inside of the U.S.
The question is, "what do you do with someone who is illegally in your country?"
Before Trump, I don't believe most of America know that those entering the U.S. illegally were set free inside of our borders. Current immigration law is broken. Building a wall simplifies the issue. It also is a stance saying, "we are going to enforce our border."
Democrats can end the shutdown by funding and authorizing the wall. If not the wall, perhaps they can ask what a reasonable alternative would be that prevents illegal immigrants from being inside the United States.
There are many questions at play here:
1) if someone is here illegally, is it proper to just dump them in TJ? Even if they are from many countries south of there?
2) if a baby is born here to illegal parents, is it a citizen? Currently constitution says YES, now you are saying NO.
3) what about that Naturalization clause... if you are here for 7 (?) years you automatically earn citizenship. Why is that in my head? And yet, people are hear for decades and it doesn't happen. Why not?
4) add kids to that above. Dreamers. They were raised here and this is their culture and country. Yet republicans want to drop them off in TJ? That's just messed up!
5) more people are coming to US from India and China than Mexico, yet this is not in the public/political dialogue.
6) actually securing the border: there are many aspects that need to be addressed, but Republicans are only discussing ONE thing, a "wall".
7) people and drugs come thru airports, roadways, and shipping containers. Not being discussed.
8) we do not use exit-the-country tracking at airports because of the shared use of national and international terminals for exiting flights at airports. We stamp passports coming in, not going out. Discussed in a recent blog I heard. We should change that to address the Visa overstay issue, which is bigger than southern border crossings.
8)
Wall can be climbed.
Wall can be dug under.
Slats can have drugs passed thru.
Wall alone does nothing to stop people who overcome such a barrier. Only agents do.
Are we going to man agents over 2000 miles of the border?
Wall blocks large animal migrations.
Wall/Fence can't be built in river.
Fence requires taking of land from owners, tribes.
Fence recessed from river traps some people between fence and river but still in USA. Not right.
What type of technology can be employed other than steel and/or cement - Republicans have not been addressing.
Republicans have allowed Trump to be the lead and sole negotiator, but all he knows is a simplistic concept of Me Win, You Lose. They have collectively not handled this discussion thoroughly (at all) and that's why Democrats oppose the, at face value.
If GOP wants to discuss "border security", there are many things to address. If they want to just discuss a "wall", there's nothing to discuss.
bearister said:dajo9 said:
OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.
Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.
The fun extends into this evening because Ann Coulter is on Maher. Coulter will call tRump a Major P@$$y, which will cause a certain part of tRump's anatomy to retract into his ample body cavity.
As if she cares.ducky23 said:bearister said:dajo9 said:
OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.
Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.
The fun extends into this evening because Ann Coulter is on Maher. Coulter will call tRump a Major P@$$y, which will cause a certain part of tRump's anatomy to retract into his ample body cavity.
Man that's a good point. I wonder if Maher will goad her into hammering trump.
Knowing trump, I could see him calling off the deal just cause coulter calls him a ***** on maher's show.
Maher needs to be careful not to set off another national disaster.
bearister said:
Someone said that we started out talking about a Wall but we ended up with a Big Cave.
Funny joke, but listen to Michael Lewis talk about (lack of) Trump Transition Team in his book THE FIFTH RISK.bearister said:
On a scale of zero to 100, what do you figure the productivity of the average Federal employee was prior to the shut down? Too soon?
800,000 employees.concordtom said:
Does anyone know?
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES GET (back) PAID FOR 1 MONTH OF ZERO PRODUCTIVITY?
Trump's folly cost that much.
AN OUTRAGE.
While he learns how to play politics....
Wilbur Ross would say, well that's when you dip into your estate savings, maybe sell off some stock or partnership interest, and if you really are in tough straights, liquidate some property. Who needs five houses at that age?bearister said:
I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?
From our friend, Robert Reich: Almost 80% of US workers live from paycheck to paycheck. Here's whybearister said:
I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?
They couldn't control themselves. Needed more and more, even when they didn't need it at all.Another Bear said:From our friend, Robert Reich: Almost 80% of US workers live from paycheck to paycheck. Here's whybearister said:
I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?
And people wonder why socialism is on the rise? When out of touch people run the government, it's still not time...people can suck it up. When bankers almost bring down the whole freakin' system...still not time. When the 1% is fleecing everyone...still not time.
However get a incompetent, blowhard moron with a very low IQ, impulsive f'tard as POTUS and he pushes things towards authoritarian rule...IT'S TIME BABY! People have had enough. The greed got too big. Trump opened everyone's eyes and now it's time for a major adjustment.
https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-container/Business/government-shutdown-cost-us-economy-6b-higher-price/story?id=60642761concordtom said:800,000 employees.concordtom said:
Does anyone know?
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES GET (back) PAID FOR 1 MONTH OF ZERO PRODUCTIVITY?
Trump's folly cost that much.
AN OUTRAGE.
While he learns how to play politics....
$50,000 annual salary.
= $40 B per year
= $3.3 B per month
But I thought Trump wanted to own the Shutdown, his idea to make the country suffer for his border wall, which isn't getting built.B.A. Bearacus said:
oski003, @gop got your back.
concordtom said:Do please report back in an obvious post, not hidden. Start a thread on it.dajo9 said:
OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.
Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.
dajo9 said:concordtom said:Do please report back in an obvious post, not hidden. Start a thread on it.dajo9 said:
OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.
Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.
Nothing to report. Politics didn't come up as I expected. We discussed diets and our kids. That's what you do when your socioeconomic class is destroying the country.
Concerned citizens in Oregon and Washington report that the shutdown allowed the Administration to move forward on off-shore drilling leases in their states.bearister said:
"Hundreds of thousands of federal workers were forced to go without paychecks while the bills piled up. (How long could you go without a paycheck?) Our national parks suffered what could be permanent damage. Public health protections and safeguards against pollution were put on hold.
But one industry continued with business as usual oil and gas.
During the shutdown, Acting Interior Secretary and former oil lobbyist David Bernhardt brought back furloughed employees to continue working on plans to radically expand offshore oil and gas drilling.....
....Similarly, even as national parks remained largely unstaffed, the Bureau of Land Management, an agency in the Interior Department, moved forward on 22 new drilling permit applications on public lands in Alaska, North Dakota, New Mexico and Oklahoma.
This blatant catering to the oil industry is unprecedented. The shutdown was so good for Big Oil that the head of the American Petroleum Institute the oil industry's main trade association admitted they "have not seen any major effects of the shutdown on our industry."
Leasing our oceans to polluters is apparently an "essential" function for this administration." Mary Creasman, CEO of the California League of Conservation Voters
I wonder if he can get the GOP Senate to back him on a shutdown this time. They saw how bad the polling got by the end of it, and how Trump's speeches were worthless in turning the tide. Some of them are up for reelection too.Another Bear said:
More shutdown likely coming. I think the theory that this is how Trump limits government (Libertarian fantasy) is real. As mentioned above, he's also pushing his agenda during the shutdown. This is un-democratic at the least, more sleaze as usual.
Trump might stall government but it will backfire. For one, the vast majority of the country think it's doesn't work. Meanwhile the hole he dig gets deeper and Chuck and Nancy are waiting to kick his butt again. So sad. So pathetic.
Not if there are Senate member who are also part of the conspiracy and are indicted.golden sloth said:
...even if Mueller's report states Trump has been a Russian mole from Day 1, and the Senate Republicans do nothing with that information, I still say they keep the Senate.