concordtom said:

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oski003 said:

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Other immigration loopholes can be filled in place of a wall. Babies born on U.S. soil should not automatically be citizens. Those seeking asylum should do so at embassies, not inside of the U.S.

The question is, "what do you do with someone who is illegally in your country?"

Before Trump, I don't believe most of America know that those entering the U.S. illegally were set free inside of our borders. Current immigration law is broken. Building a wall simplifies the issue. It also is a stance saying, "we are going to enforce our border."

Democrats can end the shutdown by funding and authorizing the wall. If not the wall, perhaps they can ask what a reasonable alternative would be that prevents illegal immigrants from being inside the United States.

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Republicans have wanted for a long time to give No Quarter to anyone who has anything to do with south of the border origins. It's a racists thing, in my opinion, but never mind that.

There are many questions at play here:

1) if someone is here illegally, is it proper to just dump them in TJ? Even if they are from many countries south of there?

2) if a baby is born here to illegal parents, is it a citizen? Currently constitution says YES, now you are saying NO.

3) what about that Naturalization clause... if you are here for 7 (?) years you automatically earn citizenship. Why is that in my head? And yet, people are hear for decades and it doesn't happen. Why not?

4) add kids to that above. Dreamers. They were raised here and this is their culture and country. Yet republicans want to drop them off in TJ? That's just messed up!

5) more people are coming to US from India and China than Mexico, yet this is not in the public/political dialogue.

6) actually securing the border: there are many aspects that need to be addressed, but Republicans are only discussing ONE thing, a "wall".

7) people and drugs come thru airports, roadways, and shipping containers. Not being discussed.

8) we do not use exit-the-country tracking at airports because of the shared use of national and international terminals for exiting flights at airports. We stamp passports coming in, not going out. Discussed in a recent blog I heard. We should change that to address the Visa overstay issue, which is bigger than southern border crossings.

8)
Wall can be climbed.
Wall can be dug under.
Slats can have drugs passed thru.
Wall alone does nothing to stop people who overcome such a barrier. Only agents do.
Are we going to man agents over 2000 miles of the border?
Wall blocks large animal migrations.
Wall/Fence can't be built in river.
Fence requires taking of land from owners, tribes.
Fence recessed from river traps some people between fence and river but still in USA. Not right.
What type of technology can be employed other than steel and/or cement - Republicans have not been addressing.

Republicans have allowed Trump to be the lead and sole negotiator, but all he knows is a simplistic concept of Me Win, You Lose. They have collectively not handled this discussion thoroughly (at all) and that's why Democrats oppose the, at face value.

If GOP wants to discuss "border security", there are many things to address. If they want to just discuss a "wall", there's nothing to discuss.

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1 2 3 & 4 would be solved by preventing illegal immigration with proper security and policy. If people illegally immigrate through Mexico, they can be transported back to Mexico.

Anyway, I'm all for granting citizenship to everyone that is here illegally as long as we can prevent future illegal immigration.

"The big picture: The president delivered nothing for his base and created financial instability for millions of others, uniting Democrats around House Speaker Pelosi, who emerged as his foil during the stretch.

Trump challenged her for wall funding ... and got nothing
He fought her on the State of the Union ... and got nothing
And he teased a national emergency ... but didn't do it." Axios

bearister said:

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dajo9 said:

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OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.

Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.

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The fun extends into this evening because Ann Coulter is on Maher. Coulter will call tRump a Major P@$$y, which will cause a certain part of tRump's anatomy to retract into his ample body cavity.

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Man that's a good point. I wonder if Maher will goad her into hammering trump.

Knowing trump, I could see him calling off the deal just cause coulter calls him a ***** on maher's show.

Maher needs to be careful not to set off another national disaster.

Here's something to cheer up the wall or bust folks. Their master and lord has tweeted that the wall is still like totally on.

The president is basically at around the 2-min mark of this clip and we're just waiting for him to get to 2:53.

ducky23 said:

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bearister said:

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dajo9 said:

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OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.

Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.

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The fun extends into this evening because Ann Coulter is on Maher. Coulter will call tRump a Major P@$$y, which will cause a certain part of tRump's anatomy to retract into his ample body cavity.

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Man that's a good point. I wonder if Maher will goad her into hammering trump.

Knowing trump, I could see him calling off the deal just cause coulter calls him a ***** on maher's show.

Maher needs to be careful not to set off another national disaster.

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As if she cares.
So long as her name is in print or on screen, she wins.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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Here's something to cheer up the wall or bust folks. Their master and lord has tweeted that the wall is still like totally on.

The president is basically at around the 2-min mark of this clip and we're just waiting for him to get to 2:53.

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How can I help?

bearister said:

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Lol!

Does anyone know?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES GET (back) PAID FOR 1 MONTH OF ZERO PRODUCTIVITY?

Trump's folly cost that much.

AN OUTRAGE.
While he learns how to play politics....

On a scale of zero to 100, what do you figure the productivity of the average Federal employee was prior to the shut down? Too soon?

bearister said:

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Someone said that we started out talking about a Wall but we ended up with a Big Cave.

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Some say a Cave,
Others say a Grave,
or a Blue Wave.

bearister said:

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On a scale of zero to 100, what do you figure the productivity of the average Federal employee was prior to the shut down? Too soon?

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Funny joke, but listen to Michael Lewis talk about (lack of) Trump Transition Team in his book THE FIFTH RISK.



Let's not disrespect too much. Thousands of people missed flights today - and that's merely the tangible smidge we saw.

concordtom said:

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Does anyone know?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES GET (back) PAID FOR 1 MONTH OF ZERO PRODUCTIVITY?

Trump's folly cost that much.

AN OUTRAGE.
While he learns how to play politics....

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800,000 employees.
$50,000 annual salary.
= $40 B per year
= $3.3 B per month

I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?

bearister said:

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I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?

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Wilbur Ross would say, well that's when you dip into your estate savings, maybe sell off some stock or partnership interest, and if you really are in tough straights, liquidate some property. Who needs five houses at that age?

bearister said:

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I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?

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From our friend, Robert Reich: Almost 80% of US workers live from paycheck to paycheck. Here's why

And people wonder why socialism is on the rise? When out of touch people run the government, it's still not time...people can suck it up. When bankers almost bring down the whole freakin' system...still not time. When the 1% is fleecing everyone...still not time.

However get a incompetent, blowhard moron with a very low IQ, impulsive f'tard as POTUS and he pushes things towards authoritarian rule...IT'S TIME BABY! People have had enough. The greed got too big. Trump opened everyone's eyes and now it's time for a major adjustment.

Another Bear said:

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bearister said:

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I think the truly horrifying realization that was driven home during the shut down is the number of people that live paycheck to paycheck....which gives rise to the difficult question to answer: What happens when they are too old to work?

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From our friend, Robert Reich: Almost 80% of US workers live from paycheck to paycheck. Here's why

And people wonder why socialism is on the rise? When out of touch people run the government, it's still not time...people can suck it up. When bankers almost bring down the whole freakin' system...still not time. When the 1% is fleecing everyone...still not time.

However get a incompetent, blowhard moron with a very low IQ, impulsive f'tard as POTUS and he pushes things towards authoritarian rule...IT'S TIME BABY! People have had enough. The greed got too big. Trump opened everyone's eyes and now it's time for a major adjustment.

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They couldn't control themselves. Needed more and more, even when they didn't need it at all.

concordtom said:

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concordtom said:

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Does anyone know?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES GET (back) PAID FOR 1 MONTH OF ZERO PRODUCTIVITY?

Trump's folly cost that much.

AN OUTRAGE.
While he learns how to play politics....

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800,000 employees.
$50,000 annual salary.
= $40 B per year
= $3.3 B per month

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https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-container/Business/government-shutdown-cost-us-economy-6b-higher-price/story?id=60642761

S&P says the shutdown cost the U.S. economy at least $6 billion, more expensive than the $5.7 billion President Donald Trump wanted for the border wall.

oski003, @gop got your back.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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oski003, @gop got your back.

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But I thought Trump wanted to own the Shutdown, his idea to make the country suffer for his border wall, which isn't getting built.



Take 1: Jan 20 2017 - Jan 3 2019, GOP controlled both houses and WH.
Take 2: Jan 3 2019 - Jan 25 2019, Pelosi control house
Take 3: next 3 weeks.

"Hundreds of thousands of federal workers were forced to go without paychecks while the bills piled up. (How long could you go without a paycheck?) Our national parks suffered what could be permanent damage. Public health protections and safeguards against pollution were put on hold.

But one industry continued with business as usual oil and gas.

During the shutdown, Acting Interior Secretary and former oil lobbyist David Bernhardt brought back furloughed employees to continue working on plans to radically expand offshore oil and gas drilling.....

....Similarly, even as national parks remained largely unstaffed, the Bureau of Land Management, an agency in the Interior Department, moved forward on 22 new drilling permit applications on public lands in Alaska, North Dakota, New Mexico and Oklahoma.

This blatant catering to the oil industry is unprecedented. The shutdown was so good for Big Oil that the head of the American Petroleum Institute the oil industry's main trade association admitted they "have not seen any major effects of the shutdown on our industry."

Leasing our oceans to polluters is apparently an "essential" function for this administration." Mary Creasman, CEO of the California League of Conservation Voters

concordtom said:

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dajo9 said:

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OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.

Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.

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Do please report back in an obvious post, not hidden. Start a thread on it.

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Nothing to report. Politics didn't come up as I expected. We discussed diets and our kids. That's what you do when your socioeconomic class is destroying the country.

Don't make me sick, Bear.

Trump probably made sure Review Agencies on his pet projects were furloughed right about the time their oversight would have caught his money laundering crimes.

You just know he's got some nefarious schemes at work that Mueller nor anybody else knows about.
At the end of it all, he'll be the richest person on the planet. Can't wait to see him dead!

Don't make me sick, Bear.

Trump probably made sure review agencies on his pet projects were furloughed right about the time their oversight would have caught his money laundering crimes.

You just know he's got some nefarious schemes at work that Mueller nor anybody else knows about.
At the end of it all, he'll be the richest person on the planet. Can't wait to see him dead!

dajo9 said:

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concordtom said:

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dajo9 said:

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OMG today has been fun. Nancy "The Wall" Pelosi wins again.

Tonight is my annual dinner with a bunch of wealthy, mostly Trump-loving, folks and my wife has made me promise not to talk politics. She's right, of course. Last year they were giddy. This year I expect the political silence to be deafening.

---

Do please report back in an obvious post, not hidden. Start a thread on it.

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Nothing to report. Politics didn't come up as I expected. We discussed diets and our kids. That's what you do when your socioeconomic class is destroying the country.

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Like this, right?



By the way, if you want to be more pissed off at Republicans, watch that movie, Fair Game, about the outing of Valerie Plame.

bearister said:

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"Hundreds of thousands of federal workers were forced to go without paychecks while the bills piled up. (How long could you go without a paycheck?) Our national parks suffered what could be permanent damage. Public health protections and safeguards against pollution were put on hold.

But one industry continued with business as usual oil and gas.

During the shutdown, Acting Interior Secretary and former oil lobbyist David Bernhardt brought back furloughed employees to continue working on plans to radically expand offshore oil and gas drilling.....

....Similarly, even as national parks remained largely unstaffed, the Bureau of Land Management, an agency in the Interior Department, moved forward on 22 new drilling permit applications on public lands in Alaska, North Dakota, New Mexico and Oklahoma.

This blatant catering to the oil industry is unprecedented. The shutdown was so good for Big Oil that the head of the American Petroleum Institute the oil industry's main trade association admitted they "have not seen any major effects of the shutdown on our industry."

Leasing our oceans to polluters is apparently an "essential" function for this administration." Mary Creasman, CEO of the California League of Conservation Voters

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Concerned citizens in Oregon and Washington report that the shutdown allowed the Administration to move forward on off-shore drilling leases in their states.

The gap in collection of data used to track environmental problems, weather data, etc... may have been long enough to invalidate many pollution/climate change prediction models.

More shutdown likely coming. I think the theory that this is how Trump limits government (Libertarian fantasy) is real. As mentioned above, he's also pushing his agenda during the shutdown. This is un-democratic at the least, more sleaze as usual.

Trump might stall government but it will backfire. For one, the vast majority of the country think it's doesn't work. Meanwhile the hole he dig gets deeper and Chuck and Nancy are waiting to kick his butt again. So sad. So pathetic.

Wall Porn!!!

Another Bear said:

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More shutdown likely coming. I think the theory that this is how Trump limits government (Libertarian fantasy) is real. As mentioned above, he's also pushing his agenda during the shutdown. This is un-democratic at the least, more sleaze as usual.

Trump might stall government but it will backfire. For one, the vast majority of the country think it's doesn't work. Meanwhile the hole he dig gets deeper and Chuck and Nancy are waiting to kick his butt again. So sad. So pathetic.

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I wonder if he can get the GOP Senate to back him on a shutdown this time. They saw how bad the polling got by the end of it, and how Trump's speeches were worthless in turning the tide. Some of them are up for reelection too.

Until we see signs that McConnell's crew will back him again, this is all talk.

I find it very hard to believe he would actually shut down again or declare National Emergency--unless this is only about trying to distract and slow down the investigation. From a policy or governing stand point it makes no sense. It's an unwanted effort for an unwanted end, and through a process and at a price no one wants---by no one I mean the majority of Americans (you know, the sane ones).

His wall is a total failure--and it's not even what he promised.

If it weren't for the investigation, I think he would be doing what he always does (look over there a new shiny object). National emergencies come and go every few weeks and then magically never get mentioned again (caravan). Three weeks is a whole lot of time in the Trump Universe to just move on and act like the shutdown never happened...if he is keeping the talk going he must REALLY need some cover from Mueller.

Currently, I believe the R's will keep the Senate in 2020, but the margin will narrow. There are two things that may change my mind (which are within the realm of reason):

1. The economy tanks and the low and middle-classes suffer high unemployment.
2. Trump shuts the government down and Senate Republicans don't force a veto.

Yes, even if Mueller's report states Trump has been a Russian mole from Day 1, and the Senate Republicans do nothing with that information, I still say they keep the Senate.

golden sloth said:

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...even if Mueller's report states Trump has been a Russian mole from Day 1, and the Senate Republicans do nothing with that information, I still say they keep the Senate.

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Not if there are Senate member who are also part of the conspiracy and are indicted.