Border Wall Shutdown

28,413 Views | 274 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by dajo9
bearister
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/how-many-national-emergencies-have-been-called-by-presidents/
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B.A. Bearacus
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oski003 said:

Trump now has almost a third as many active presidential emergencies as Obama!
Other than the "Blocking Property" ones (highlighted), he declared a National Emergency around the Influenza pandemic. What is the point of what you wrote? Are you saying that Obama did it for the flu, so it's ok for the president to do it here to help his re-election campaign?

sycasey
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oski003 said:

Trump now has almost a third as many active presidential emergencies as Obama!
So what do you believe about Presidents declaring national emergencies? Good? Bad? Is Trump's national emergency the right call here? Why or why not?
Another Bear
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Bottom line: Trump lost the border wall battle and it could be signaling more and bigger defeats to come. Calling a national emergency is simply made the whole thing stupider, dumber and even more pointless. Mostly however he lost big time and pulled his tail between his legs.

The GOP gave Trump a green light for 2 years and zero obstruction and he still couldn't get a ******* thing done. And the stuff he did get done, Kavanaugh, was a nasty and ugly bit of business, complete and utter shtt show. So this is how Trump passes policy...by LOSING BIG, crapping his pants and now he's saying the Japanese Prime Minister nominated him for a Nobel.

Listen up wing nuts...the Trump losing is going to become common place it's going to be regular and likely capped by something big. Mostly however the American people are angry AF because no one likes to see $5 billion flushed down a hole for nothing. There's plenty of stuff to spend that on to help Americans directly.

LOSING...IS THE TRUMP WAY.

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sycasey
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Another Bear said:

The GOP gave Trump a green light for 2 years and zero obstruction and he still couldn't get a ******* thing done. And the stuff he did get done, Kavanaugh, was a nasty and ugly bit of business, complete and utter shtt show.
Now now, he also passed a very unpopular tax bill to cut taxes for rich people. That's something!
Another Bear
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The funny thing about the Trump tax cut is that will hurt just about everyone including Trump supporters who got their butts kicked on their returns. It will only get worse as tax season progresses and individual returns come back.
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Another Bear
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#FakeTrumpEmergency
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B.A. Bearacus
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Dude needs to live out his remaining days much faster.
OBear073akaSMFan
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Where is our intelligence Agencies,r Military personnel, or our secret service when we need them to do their job! He wants to play dictator then I believe fragging is warranted. 65% will celebrate when he passes.
Another Bear
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B.A. Bearacus said:

Dude needs to live out his remaining days much faster.
We're past the point where Trump walks away scot-free and undamged and unharmed. There's just too much crap flying around him not to stick. It's a matter of time...and yes, it's gonna hurt like a motherfccker...or he'll be dead in the bunker when it all goes down.

The worst case scenario is much worse than anyone thought...and that's why the cover-up and denial has been so fierce and steady.
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Sebastabear
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B.A. Bearacus said:

Any conservatives ok with the president usurping the power of the purse here? Would like to know where you stand on this.
Who could possibly be ok with this? This is the fundamental basis of our entire governing system. Congress controls the purse. If the president doesn't like how Congress is spending money (or not) then he needs to lobby to get different members elected. But when the president, enforces the laws and makes the laws we don't have a Constitutional democracy any longer. We have a monarchy. Not what I signed up for.
blungld
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What is not being discussed enough in MSM is that he is only weeks away from submitting his next budget to Congress. Can the man do anything like a reasonable and competent leader? Submit your new budget with border funding, itemize how you want it allocated, and justify your priorities and claims. If your argument is cogent and sensible, it will be approved.

No, he has to get what he wants by cheating, lying, name calling, tweeting. He has no cogent, well-reasoned position. He takes none of the objections or counter-arguments into consideration and modifies accordingly.

The fact that he can't leverage what should be a very favorable political landscape, and hasn't for two years, says that even his cronies (and certainly the majority of the country) don't agree with his facts, assessment, or solution. So move on.

Calling opponents names and yelling slogans is not negotiation, and is not making a case for policy. Has he once said anything like "What I am hearing from others is..."? He NEVER listens. He ONLY tells us what to think or what he says is right. What makes him think that governance means ignoring statistics, science, experts in a field, intelligence, political opposition, and the American people, and instead only trusting his gut and looking for solutions that appeal to only to his far-right media and base?

I listen to him speak, and I am thinking the whole time: "Is this really the only approach you can come up with; you really can't just simply explain what you think without lying or attacking?"

We are so numb to what Trump sounds like that we stopped noticing the extent to which he is a child who knows nothing other than tantrum and anger to express himself. It's a bad look for an adult. It's a worse look for a leader. It's the worst look I've ever seen for a president of the United States.

"The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!"
sp4149
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Sebastabear said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Any conservatives ok with the president usurping the power of the purse here? Would like to know where you stand on this.
Who could possibly be ok with this? This is the fundamental basis of our entire governing system. Congress controls the purse. If the president doesn't like how Congress is spending money (or not) then he needs to lobby to get different members elected. But when the president, enforces the laws and makes the laws we don't have a Constitutional democracy any longer. We have a monarchy. Not what I signed up for.
Wasn't that long ago that Ann Coulter called him an Emperor-God.
That really it what his supporters wanted, a God who would make their decisions for them.
Crimes without regret...

Of course today she called him an idiot (maybe she saw the Emperor's new clothes?)
sonofabear51
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And, he supposedly WILL apologize, if he is EVER wrong. In that sweaty, warped mind, he has never been wrong, so he will never apologize for anything. He never has, and never will. @#$hole.
Start Slowly and taper off
blungld
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oski003 said:

Trump now has almost a third as many active presidential emergencies as Obama!
I'm oski003, I write a sentence.

"The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!"
socaliganbear
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Sebastabear said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Any conservatives ok with the president usurping the power of the purse here? Would like to know where you stand on this.
Who could possibly be ok with this? This is the fundamental basis of our entire governing system. Congress controls the purse. If the president doesn't like how Congress is spending money (or not) then he needs to lobby to get different members elected. But when the president, enforces the laws and makes the laws we don't have a Constitutional democracy any longer. We have a monarchy. Not what I signed up for.
There are several people on this board that are ok with it. These are educated people with access to information. It's truly sad.

One day the media will stop buying the bad faith arguments made by these people about rule of law, debt, overreach etc.
oski003
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Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story once marveled, "How easily men satisfy themselves that the Constitution is exactly what they wish it to be." If Story returned to life today, he would find these to be familiar times, as politicians and pundits have decided that the Constitution bars an action by President Trump, even when they reached the diametrically opposite conclusion on similar actions taken by President Obama during his term.

In the latest "constitutional crisis" declared on Capitol Hill, Democrats are adamant that they will not fund the signature pledge of Trump to build a border wall. In response, Trump has threatened to start construction unilaterally under his emergency powers if Congress refuses to yield to his demand for more than $5 billion. Critics turned to the Constitution and found clear authority against Trump. Representative Adam Schiff, Berkeley law school dean Erwin Chemerinsky, Yale law professor Bruce Ackerman, and many others denounced such a move as flagrantly unconstitutional.

The concern is well founded even if the conclusion is not. Congress has refused the funds needed for the wall, so Trump is openly claiming the right to unilaterally order construction by declaring a national emergency. On its face, that order would undermine the core role of Congress in our system of checks and balances. I happen to agree that an emergency declaration to build the wall is unwise and unnecessary. However, the declaration is not unconstitutional. Schiff, now chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, insists that Trump "does not have the power to execute" this order because "if Harry Truman could not nationalize the steel industry during wartime, this president does not have the power to declare an emergency and build a multibillion dollar wall on the border."

The problem is Trump does have that power because Congress gave it to him. Schiff is referring to the historic case of Youngstown Sheet and Tube Company versus Charles Sawyer, in which the Supreme Court rejected the use of inherent executive powers by President Truman to seize steel mills during a labor dispute. He wanted to claim a national security emergency if steel production halted during the Korean War. In a powerful check on executive authority, the Supreme Court rejected his rationale for unilateral action. The Supreme Court was correct. But that was in 1952.

More than two decades later, Congress expressly gave presidents the authority to declare such emergencies and act unilaterally. The 1976 National Emergencies Act gives presidents sweeping authority as well as allowance in federal regulations to declare an "immigration emergency" to deal with an "influx of aliens which either is of such magnitude or exhibits such other characteristics that effective administration of the immigration laws of the United States is beyond the existing capabilities" of immigration authorities "in the affected area or areas." The basis for such an invocation generally includes the "likelihood of continued growth in the magnitude of the influx," rising criminal activity, as well as high "demands on law enforcement agencies" and "other circumstances."

Democrats have not objected to use of this authority regularly by past presidents, including roughly 30 such emergencies that continue to this day. Other statutes afford additional emergency powers. Indeed, a report by the Congressional Research Service in 2007 stated, "Under the powers delegated by such statutes, the president may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens."

Congress spent decades yielding authority to the executive branch. When it agreed with the president, such mighty authority was even celebrated. But now, consider the objections from Representative Joaquin Castro, chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. He has declared that it would be "profoundly inappropriate for the president of the United States to circumvent the legislative branch and single handedly, against the will of the American people and the American Congress, put up a wall."

This is a curious statement from one of many lawmakers who supported Obama when he openly circumvented Congress on immigration reforms. Obama ordered agencies to stop enforcing some federal laws and used executive orders to do precisely what Congress refused to do. When Obama declared in a State of the Union address that he would circumvent Congress if it failed to approve his immigration reforms, Democrats cheered at the notion of their own circumvention, if not obsolescence.

Likewise, Castro and his colleagues supported Obama when he ordered the payment of billions out of the Treasury into ObamaCare, after being denied the funds by Congress. These same Democrats were largely silent when Obama attacked Libya without a declaration of war or legislative authorization. Obama funded the Libyan war out of money slushing around in the Pentagon, without a specific appropriation. I represented lawmakers who opposed the Libyan war. I also served as attorney for the entire House of Representatives in successfully opposing the ObamaCare payments. Most Democrats opposed both these lawsuits.

Congress can act to stop circumvention under the National Emergencies Act. Trump must notify Congress of his declaration and detail the powers being claimed under that law. Congress could and should negate the declaration with a vote of both chambers. However, that does not make the declaration unconstitutional. Any declaration would create a myriad of legal issues and likely face an immediate legal challenge. Two questions that a court would have to consider are the source of the authority and the source of any funds. The latter is where some challenges could arise.

Congress gave Trump such authority in the National Emergencies Act, augmenting claims of inherent authority, but the source of the funds could be more challenging. Under two laws in Title 10 and Title 33 of the United States Code, he could seek to use unobligated funds originally set aside for military construction projects, or divert funds from Army civil works projects. There are limitations on the use of such money, and there could be strong challenges to the use of unobligated funds in other areas. There is money there to start but not nearly enough to finish such a wall without proper appropriation. Recall Obama funded the undeclared war in Libya out of money slushing around in the Pentagon, without the new strict constitutionalists objecting from the Democratic side of the aisle.

Courts generally have deferred to the judgments of presidents on the basis for such national emergencies, and dozens of such declarations have been made without serious judicial review. Indeed, many of the very same politicians and pundits declared the various travel ban orders to be facially unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court ultimately lifted the injunctions of lower courts. Moreover, Trump does not have to ultimately prevail to achieve part of his objective. Even if a court were to enjoin construction, the declaration could afford Trump the political cover to end the government shutdown, as the issue moved its way through the courts.

While the matter could be expedited to move through the courts in a matter of months, the government could seek to slow litigation to push any final decision into 2020. There are compelling arguments against funding the entire wall demanded by Trump, although some added border barriers clearly are warranted. However, one can oppose an emergency declaration without claiming that it is facially unconstitutional. It is not.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University.
sp4149
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While it is true that the military has un-obligated construction funds, commonly referred to as MINOR Construction, in the past they have been capped at $500K per project. Military construction projects above the limit have to be approved by Congress. Minor Construction projects are typically awarded in September before the end of the Fiscal year. For trump to build a wall with Minor construction funds he would need to issue approximately 10,000 minor construction projects or more. There are acquisition regulations and legislation that prevents consolidation of minor military construction into a major construction project. This is what Trump obviously intends.

Trump's plan will gut oversight of military construction, I would expect Government Contractors to be ecstatic over the prospects of no rules. DOD has always had 'black box funding, kept secret on the excuse of national security. In reality it was a fairly small portion of the overall DOD budget, especially the military construction budget. Also note: There are separate rules for overseas construction and domestic construction projects. There have been senior contracting officials who have been applying overseas rules to domestic contracts in direct conflict with legislation preventing such actions. I would expect those contracting officers to fully cooperate with the Trump administration in direct defiance of Congressional action, past, present, and future. AS an example, the Trump administration could include staffing the new barrier with private mercenaries, AKA Eric Prince; pay them a bonus for the head of each asylum seeker. Such provisions have been added in military contracts as 'in the event of emergency' provisions.

The wall will become GSA property and GSA contract procedures would not allow these actions, however military procurement uses GSA contract authority without direct GSA oversight. GSA would not stop these contracts. It may well be this Trump plan is far more insidious and sophisticated than it initially appears.
blungld
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oski003 said:

...However, one can oppose an emergency declaration without claiming that it is facially unconstitutional. It is not...
A convoluted analysis that ignores the basic lie that this is NOT an emergency.

You can copy and past articles, and the conservative think tanks can spin their wheels trying to manufacture favorable credible support for a man who has no consistent feature to his policy other than whim, ego, obstruction, power, deception, or profit.

Articles like this are legitimate thought experiments reacting to illegitimate actions. This president is dishonest at every level: what his real intentions are, his basis for decisions, how he presents his ideas, the propaganda he deploys, what he has said and meant, what others have said and meant, and the false and misleading statistics and statements he makes up.

So we can read articles like this and just keep pretending that we are actually dissecting the pros and cons of policy and ideology, or we can all admit that he is just an unintelligent, remorseless fraud who is a threat to nation and world. And that this isn't about left or right, or constitutional analysis.

Can we save the partisan bickering for when the real ideas of conservatism and liberalism square off, and not when a mad king makes the kingdom pretend to see invisible clothes?

"The Bear will not quilt, the Bear will not dye!"
Another Bear
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Facially unconstitutional? Did I miss something...like Vlad Putin giving Trump a golden facial?

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Sebastabear
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Quote:

Likewise, Castro and his colleagues supported Obama when he ordered the payment of billions out of the Treasury into ObamaCare, after being denied the funds by Congress. These same Democrats were largely silent when Obama attacked Libya without a declaration of war or legislative authorization. Obama funded the Libyan war out of money slushing around in the Pentagon, without a specific appropriation. I represented lawmakers who opposed the Libyan war. I also served as attorney for the entire House of Representatives in successfully opposing the ObamaCare payments. Most Democrats opposed both these lawsuits


I am sick unto death of the "whatabout-ism" arguments. They are agenerally ridiculous and this one is more ridiculous than most.

On Obamacare is the argument that Obama tried to do something, wasn't allowed to do it and so Trump should actually be able to do it? Did they miss the end of the story?

Of course that ignores the totally non-analogous detail that Obamacare was actually passsed by both Houses of Congress and signed into law by the President. When a subsequent Congress didn't like the law but didn't have the votes to overturn it they tried to do an end run by refusing to fund the law on the books. If anything the story buttresses the argument that our system requires both Houses to pass legislation and the President to sign it. That's how you implement policy. One branch of government doesn't get to run roughshod over the other.
B.A. Bearacus
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Oski003, serious question: is there anything the president could do or can be found to have done that would make you not support him and give him your vote again in 2020? I believe the answer is no, there is nothing.
oski003
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B.A. Bearacus said:

Oski003, serious question: is there anything the president could do or can be found to have done that would make you not support him and give him your vote again in 2020? I believe the answer is no, there is nothing.


I didn't vote for him the first time nor do I plan on voting for him if the Republicans have him run again. I'd prefer he be voted out. On the other hand, I agree with some of his policies.
B.A. Bearacus
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oski003 said:


I didn't vote for him the first time nor do I plan on voting for him if the Republicans have him run again. I'd prefer he be voted out. On the other hand, I agree with some of his policies.
I'm genuinely surprised and in borderline disbelief that you'd rather have the Dem candidate win the 2020 election over Trump.
kelly09
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oski003 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Oski003, serious question: is there anything the president could do or can be found to have done that would make you not support him and give him your vote again in 2020? I believe the answer is no, there is nothing.


I didn't vote for him the first time nor do I plan on voting for him if the Republicans have him run again. I'd prefer he be voted out. On the other hand, I agree with some of his policies.
Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
Yogi58
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kelly09 said:

oski003 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Oski003, serious question: is there anything the president could do or can be found to have done that would make you not support him and give him your vote again in 2020? I believe the answer is no, there is nothing.


I didn't vote for him the first time nor do I plan on voting for him if the Republicans have him run again. I'd prefer he be voted out. On the other hand, I agree with some of his policies.
Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
I have had it up to here with scared stupid old conservative men. Trump doesn't give a flying crap about what you care about. He isn't one of you. He just takes advantage of your stupidity to get elected and give rich people the keys to the kingdom.
Another Bear
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I call these types the sit on their hands and look the other way GOP...while literal Nazis do the policy work and the 33 indicted and 5 convicted mean nothing to these people.

These types fail to recognize that ignorance is not an excuse for treason under the law.
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B.A. Bearacus
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kelly09 said:



Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
Everyone has some good policies.

Let me rephrase for Oski and Kelly: could the president be guilty of or do anything that would make you think he was not worthy of leading our nation through the end of his term?
kelly09
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B.A. Bearacus said:

kelly09 said:



Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
Everyone has some good policies.

Let me rephrase for Oski and Kelly: could the president be guilty of or do anything that would make you think he was not worthy of leading our nation through the end of his term?
Sure. Being an Iran supporter would sure give me pause.
OBear073akaSMFan
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How about when he believes Putin and the Saudi's crown prince before he believes all of our intelligence agencies and our military generals and he tells them they need to go back to school. Does that give you any hint that he is a corrupted Moron. It's no doubt increasing his wealth is his #1 objective. You think he gives a hoot about the republican's policies. They are a means to his end.
oski003
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B.A. Bearacus said:

kelly09 said:



Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
Everyone has some good policies.

Let me rephrase for Oski and Kelly: could the president be guilty of or do anything that would make you think he was not worthy of leading our nation through the end of his term?


This is an insincere ******* remark. It doesn't deserve a response. Your question is incredibly condescending and you can go **** yourself.
bearister
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Chris Wallace cross examines Herr Miller.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/430388-foxs-wallace-presses-miller-on-trump-emergency-declaration



How can any rationale person of average intelligence not be horrified that this cretin is a spokesperson for and has a major influence on the Administration?
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golden sloth
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kelly09 said:

oski003 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Oski003, serious question: is there anything the president could do or can be found to have done that would make you not support him and give him your vote again in 2020? I believe the answer is no, there is nothing.


I didn't vote for him the first time nor do I plan on voting for him if the Republicans have him run again. I'd prefer he be voted out. On the other hand, I agree with some of his policies.
Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
Okay, so you don't like Trump, and don't think he should be president. He has spent the last two years undermining our democracy and circumventing the normal checks and balances, attacking anyone that questions him, and doing his best to become the unquestioned authoritarian leader of this country. All while his administration has been subject to the most corruption scandals in history and the President has used his position to personally enrich himself, while catering to the needs of foreign powers before his own people. Someone who wants to withhold disaster relief funding to places that don't poll well with him, and has openly wondered if the US should have a President for life. All while consistently, blatantly and intentionally lying to the American public on a scale most people didn't even think was possible. But Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifyinig?

No, YOU are terrifying.

Not because I disagree with your dislike of the progressive agenda, but because you would rather destroy our democracy than have someone implement a policy you don't like.
Another Bear
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kelly09
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golden sloth said:

kelly09 said:

oski003 said:

B.A. Bearacus said:

Oski003, serious question: is there anything the president could do or can be found to have done that would make you not support him and give him your vote again in 2020? I believe the answer is no, there is nothing.


I didn't vote for him the first time nor do I plan on voting for him if the Republicans have him run again. I'd prefer he be voted out. On the other hand, I agree with some of his policies.
Totally agree Oskli. He is a jerk. But some good policies. I like his court picks but a Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifying.
Okay, so you don't like Trump, and don't think he should be president. He has spent the last two years undermining our democracy and circumventing the normal checks and balances, attacking anyone that questions him, and doing his best to become the unquestioned authoritarian leader of this country. All while his administration has been subject to the most corruption scandals in history and the President has used his position to personally enrich himself, while catering to the needs of foreign powers before his own people. Someone who wants to withhold disaster relief funding to places that don't poll well with him, and has openly wondered if the US should have a President for life. All while consistently, blatantly and intentionally lying to the American public on a scale most people didn't even think was possible. But Harris, Gillibrand, Booker or Beto is terrifyinig?

No, YOU are terrifying.

Not because I disagree with your dislike of the progressive agenda, but because you would rather destroy our democracy than have someone implement a policy you don't like.
What is a golden sloth?
 
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