bearnation93 said:
Another Bear said:
I was listening to KPFA today while in the car and they got into Reps. Talib and Omar and the ban...and I broke out laughing because one guest said Israel is an ethno-religious apartheid state, and not a democracy. I had to agree..but other countries in the region are the same, like Saudi Arabia...just no Palestine and occupied territory.
Contrary to the propaganda that you've been fed, Israel is a democracy...a real democracy with popularly elected Arabs serving in the Knesset. And Arabs have the same rights as Jews and those rights are just as jealously protected for them as for Jews. In fact, if you talk privately to many Arabs in Israel they would much prefer a Jewish government to an undemocratic, corrupt, tyrannical Arab government like the Palestinian Authority or other regional Arab governments.
Of course, I'm sure Jews living under Saudi and Palestinian and Lebanese/Hezbollah governing authorities would have thses same freedoms as Arabs in Israel...NOT!!!
And there is no occupied territory...Judea and Samaria have been Jewish lands way before any Arabs ever arrived on the scene. Have to know your history.
Most people here know their history. You want this both ways. If Israel took land 50 years ago, it's Israel's. If the lands were Jewish 2000 years ago, it's Israel's.
How many situations in world history have ever occurred where land that had been predominantly lived on by one people for centuries was essentially taken from them to give to people who hadn't been a majority presence in that land for 1800 years? Actually, under western property law, if the Jewish people were individuals, they would have no claim to the land. Under western property law, if you occupy a land for a certain period of time, it's yours. If Israel was a piece of property in America (or perhaps more relevantly, England) a Jewish claim to the land would not have survived summary judgment.
The Nations that made up Native Americans occupied the land that is the United States for thousands more years than Jewish people made up a majority of Israel, and that occupation ended more than a thousand years after Jewish occupation of Israel ended. They have a stronger claim to the United States than Jewish people had to Israel.
That does not mean I do not support a Jewish homeland in Israel. I do. But the argument that they were Jewish lands before therefore they have prior claim is legally incorrect and completely not helpful to the situation. The authority that Israel has comes from the legal rights that European powers, and particularly the British gave to them in the 20th Century. But there is no more moral claim to land that one's ancestors lived on 1800 years ago than there is to land one currently lives on and whose ancestors have lived on for 700 years. We were here first doesn't fly. It is an easy way to dismiss the claims Muslims had and to avoid the fact that Muslims got royally screwed in this process.
To oversimplify, Europe took the land from the Jewish people 1800 years ago. Europe lost the land to the Muslims 1000 years ago. Europe treated Jews horribly for 2000 years. Europe tried to make amends by giving the land they took from them back when Europe didn't live there anymore. And when they did so, they did nothing to deal with the people who actually lived on the land.
Given the history of treatment of Jewish peoples world wide, I think it was very important they have a homeland. I think it was logical that the homeland be Israel. It was a great day for the Jewish people when they were given a homeland. Jewish people were justifiably excited by this fact and moved there and built a strong and vibrant country. But I also acknowledge that the people that were living there got screwed in this deal. I would also acknowledge that if Donald Trump decided that to make amends to Native Americans by giving the California, I'd like to think Californians would not meekly go away but would fight for their land. I don't think it is helpful to the situation to say that Muslims "deserved" things for fighting back. I also see that Israel is in a difficult position having to balance humanitarianism with protecting their own safety. It would be tough for anyone to get that balance right. But under the current regime, I find it hard to argue they have done a good job. Which doesn't mean I support Muslim groups in this situation. It's been a century. Israel will not be removed from the land. Violence at this point feels a lot more like petty revenge than fighting for your people. The failure of any Palestinian leadership to lead their people to a constructive solution is massive.
What I see as an outsider is both sides historically got a pretty crappy deal here and neither side wants to acknowledge that fact for the other side. Neither side wants to say "you know what, this sucked for both of us, but it is about time we make the best of this". What I see is a lot of arguments on all sides, whether at American college campuses, or in serious political arenas that range from completely oblivious to the other side's issues, to borderline offensive portrayals of the other side, to full on offensive portrayals of the other side (and your tropes about Muslims fall into the latter, by the way).
I see nobody dealing with the issues with any sort of reasonableness. Both sides just want to argue claims that are anywhere from 50 to 2000 years old. Until both sides are willing to remotely see what the other side has gone through, and actually discuss a reasonable resolution, they are stuck where they are at. I don't see that happening anytime soon. So frankly, I wash my hands of the whole thing. Just try not to blow up the world while you work this out.
This whole thing looks a lot like, Turks and Greeks, Irish and English, Croats and Serbs, etc. "Those who in quarrels interpose, must often wipe a bloody nose". I think a lot of the world is tired of bloody noses.