Of course I'll take the damn vaccine. Let's get thing over with as soon as possible.

bearister said:

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The 'daunting' hurdles of distributing Covid-19 vaccines in America


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/24/us-coronavirus-vaccine-distribution-challenges?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

---

An Italian-American from New Jersey (General Perna) is handling the logistics. Consider it done.

Anarchistbear said:

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OneKeg said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

OneKeg said:

---

I don't know about "first opportunity" for the vaccine like lining up overnight for concert tickets.

But yeah in fairly short order when available. I am not an essential worker, I work at home, and my family are pretty much 100% locked down hermit-style. Walks/bike-rides only in the deserted Presidio area of SF where I live. Food/shopping all online and delivered. No physical meeting with friends and neighbors. Always wear a mask. Try to stay 30 feet distant, not 6, when talking with someone (and only outside).

Given that, it seems a little selfish to try to jump any line to get the vaccine. Essential workers and other crucial and/or at-risk folks first.

But yeah in general, right away after that - definitely taking the vaccine if it appears to have the scientific consensus behind it. It's always a risk, and it won't guarantee we won't get Covid. We'll continue to stay quarantined even after vaccinating. But if it reduces transmission rates/loads etc., then the more people that take it (and the flu vaccine) the better in terms of fighting the disease nationwide and keeping our medical workers and facilities from breaking down.

I'm afraid, however, that it will become a stupid political issue and huge swathes of people refuse to take it as has happened with wearing masks. I have friends in the (non-urban) midwest, plains states, Texas and the south that have horror stories about the sheer near-violent hostility they encounter regularly for themselves wearing a mask (not even asking others to do so). Afraid a bunch of anti-vaxxers are going to make life hell on everyone.

---

Interesting. All the stupid people may be weeded out.

---

Problem is, like wearing masks, you don't take vaccines just to protect yourself. You may still get the disease if you take the vaccine, and you may never get it or be asymptomatic if you don't.

But for non-linear/exponential proliferation phenomena like highly-infectious diseases, reducing the the odds of transmission just a few percentage points can be the difference between the disease slowly going away and the disease skyrocketing across large parts of the country, even for those who do wear masks and take the vaccine. It's so important for everyone that everyone be on-board. So a-holes that have made masks a political issue are endangering all of us, not just themselves (to be clear I am not advocating threatening them like my friends got threatened, and it wouldn't change their minds anyway).

Edited to add:
I have a sinking feeling it's going to be the same with vaccines - that many refuse to take it for political reasons. And then use google to find some contrarian scientist to rationalize the anti-vax / anti-mask view they were already planning on holding (on this board, these posts often say "I dare you to read this" or some such). Or use the fact that science is always a work in progress and it's possible for Dr. Fauci or any other scientific expert to be making a best effort but change guidance based on new information along the way as justification to dismiss or cast doubt on conclusions that most experts have now come to. And instead follow signals based on their chosen political leaders, or news sources, or radio personalities, or the twittersphere. Basically working backwards to justify their refusal to wear a mask or vaccinate. And in so doing, endanger everybody, not just themselves.

---

Well two people on this thread have already said they won't take it. People who are anti vaccine are not easily characterized politically.

---

Yes sorry - I wasn't trying to say that the anti-vax stance is simply captured by the simple left-right or Dep-Rep political spectrum in the US, or at least not to the extent masks have become. But it may still be a political issue.

Anarchistbear said:

---

OneKeg said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

OneKeg said:

---

I don't know about "first opportunity" for the vaccine like lining up overnight for concert tickets.

But yeah in fairly short order when available. I am not an essential worker, I work at home, and my family are pretty much 100% locked down hermit-style. Walks/bike-rides only in the deserted Presidio area of SF where I live. Food/shopping all online and delivered. No physical meeting with friends and neighbors. Always wear a mask. Try to stay 30 feet distant, not 6, when talking with someone (and only outside).

Given that, it seems a little selfish to try to jump any line to get the vaccine. Essential workers and other crucial and/or at-risk folks first.

But yeah in general, right away after that - definitely taking the vaccine if it appears to have the scientific consensus behind it. It's always a risk, and it won't guarantee we won't get Covid. We'll continue to stay quarantined even after vaccinating. But if it reduces transmission rates/loads etc., then the more people that take it (and the flu vaccine) the better in terms of fighting the disease nationwide and keeping our medical workers and facilities from breaking down.

I'm afraid, however, that it will become a stupid political issue and huge swathes of people refuse to take it as has happened with wearing masks. I have friends in the (non-urban) midwest, plains states, Texas and the south that have horror stories about the sheer near-violent hostility they encounter regularly for themselves wearing a mask (not even asking others to do so). Afraid a bunch of anti-vaxxers are going to make life hell on everyone.

---

Interesting. All the stupid people may be weeded out.

---

Problem is, like wearing masks, you don't take vaccines just to protect yourself. You may still get the disease if you take the vaccine, and you may never get it or be asymptomatic if you don't.

But for non-linear/exponential proliferation phenomena like highly-infectious diseases, reducing the the odds of transmission just a few percentage points can be the difference between the disease slowly going away and the disease skyrocketing across large parts of the country, even for those who do wear masks and take the vaccine. It's so important for everyone that everyone be on-board. So a-holes that have made masks a political issue are endangering all of us, not just themselves (to be clear I am not advocating threatening them like my friends got threatened, and it wouldn't change their minds anyway).

Edited to add:
I have a sinking feeling it's going to be the same with vaccines - that many refuse to take it for political reasons. And then use google to find some contrarian scientist to rationalize the anti-vax / anti-mask view they were already planning on holding (on this board, these posts often say "I dare you to read this" or some such). Or use the fact that science is always a work in progress and it's possible for Dr. Fauci or any other scientific expert to be making a best effort but change guidance based on new information along the way as justification to dismiss or cast doubt on conclusions that most experts have now come to. And instead follow signals based on their chosen political leaders, or news sources, or radio personalities, or the twittersphere. Basically working backwards to justify their refusal to wear a mask or vaccinate. And in so doing, endanger everybody, not just themselves.

---

Well two people on this thread have already said they won't take it. People who are anti vaccine are not easily characterized politically.

---

Anti-vaxxer nonsense is definitely not limited to one side of the political aisle.

Case in point:

How Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Distorted Vaccine Science - Scientific American


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-robert-f-kennedy-jr-distorted-vaccine-science1/

dimitrig said:

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The title of this thread asks not if you will ever take the vaccine. The question asked is if one would take it at the first opportunity. The answer to that for me is definitely "No, I will not." That doesn't mean I won't alter my behavior in other ways including wearing a mask.

---

apparently front line medical staff will get the vaccine first, bless 'em. lets hope their experience encourages the rest of us to follow ASAP # we should live so long

As with most things in life, it depends: if thge vaccine is unsafe at the outset, I would mandate that every democrat and media member who tried to deny Trump the opportunity to govern fairly be given the unsafe vaccine ( two doses) Ifthe vaccine is deemed safe, every person who voted for Trump will. be the second in line ( after the Hospital personnel) Every person who tried to deny Trump the opportunity to govern fairly would be given a choice:
1) You and your family will wait five years for the vaccine ( one dose only) or
2) Be given the vaccine provided you volunteer to incarcerate yourself at Sing-Sing prison where all the inmates love to play " drop the soap."
3) if I were a Roman emperor, this would be my first "executive order" after coffee. & breakfast. ( food tasters would naturally be Democrats and their enablers ).
). I'm sure the Gods would bless my decees
) PD James would call this a "Certain Justice."
) Time for breakfast. " guards....please assemble the usual suspects for food tasting."
And, if Bearister tries to escape again, his favorite hiding place is the closet. Look there first.
'As usual, Big C is exempt from my directives. ....He disagrees but in a very agreeable fashion."

helltopay1 said:

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As with most things in life, it depends: if thge vaccine is unsafe at the outset, I would mandate that every democrat and media member who tried to deny Trump the opportunity to govern fairly be given the unsafe vaccine ( two doses) Ifthe vaccine is deemed safe, every person who voted for Trump will. be the second in line ( after the Hospital personnel) Every person who tried to deny Trump the opportunity to govern fairly would be given a choice:
1) You and your family will wait five years for the vaccine ( one dose only) or
2) Be given the vaccine provided you volunteer to incarcerate yourself at Sing-Sing prison where all the inmates love to play " drop the soap."
3) if I were a Roman emperor, this would be my first "executive order" after coffee. & breakfast. ( food tasters would naturally be Democrats and their enablers ).
). I'm sure the Gods would bless my decees
) PD James would call this a "Certain Justice."
) Time for breakfast. " guards....please assemble the usual suspects for food tasting."
And, if Bearister tries to escape again, his favorite hiding place is the closet. Look there first.
'As usual, Big C is exempt from my directives. ....He disagrees but in a very agreeable fashion."

---

If I was a Roman Emperor I would baste you in whatever the F lions like to eat the most and stake your arse out solo in the middle of the arena. I would then flip the thumbs down move so fast I would sprain my wrist.

"Nobody knows whether you are vaccinated or not.."

Us boomers got branded for life with the smallpox vaccination.

OaktownBear said:

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dimitrig said:

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OaktownBear said:

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dimitrig said:

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BearsWiin said:

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Maybe cite something written after Sept 15, when more was known about the case, instead of citing preliminary concerns

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Johnson & Johnson, AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine trials set to resume

How about realizing that there can be some serious side-effects and that drug companies and even regulatory agencies have a lot of incentive to press forward if the vaccines seem "safe enough?"

Look, I am not saying if you get vaccinated something bad will happen to you.

What I am refuting is the idea that the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work.

That's not the worst that can happen.

Wait until the vaccine comes out and see what the lawyers put in the fine print. That will be the worst that can happen. I guarantee you it will not be "nothing."

---

Human nature is to be more scared of the risk of doing something vs. the risk of doing nothing. That doesn't mean the risk of doing nothing is less. Pretty much every vaccine in exceedingly rare situations can kill you. Polio can kill you.

By all means research this and make the decision that is right for you. As I asked above, all I ask is that you consider that your decision impacts others (something your comments have not acknowledged). So, take it more seriously. Look at the sciences make a REALLY REALLY informed choice. If you then come to the conclusion that the risk of taking the vaccine outweighs the protection you get and the benefit you give to society in the economic and health benefits of reaching herd immunity fine.

I'm just going to say that if the science on this is conclusive and someone doesn't get the vaccine, that is every bit as bad as people who have refused to wear masks.

It is extremely disappointing to me both with respect to masks and with respect to vaccines how Americans have responded with only an analysis (usually faulty) of how it improves their individual odds when to fight this disease properly we need people to respond with how it impacts all of us.

My odds of getting Covid drop significantly if everyone wears a mask, so I wear a mask whether everyone else does or not. As long as the science is appropriate, I will get a vaccine because my odds of getting the disease not only drop significantly from getting it, but it drops significantly when all of us get it.

By the way. Flu shot, same deal. Much less effective vaccine, but on a population basis, more flu shots mean fewer people die.

---

I don't think not getting the vaccine is the same thing as not wearing a mask. The reason is that once a vaccine becomes available then those who wish to be protected can take the vaccine and will be protected regardless of what I do or don't do.

As for looking at the science, that is what I am going to do, and it will take years for the data to filter in. If COVID-19 continues to be a public health issue in the US and millions of people have been safely vaccinated then maybe I will change my mind.

The title of this thread asks not if you will ever take the vaccine. The question asked is if one would take it at the first opportunity. The answer to that for me is definitely "No, I will not." That doesn't mean I won't alter my behavior in other ways including wearing a mask.

---

You know what? I've been nice and there is no cause to be. Eff it.

Put on your effing MAGA hat and don't complain about masks because you are just as bad. Thank you for ignoring the pleas of scientists and health care workers and making an abominably stupid risk/benefit calculation. We will all appreciate you taking a vaccine years after it matters.

It is not different from masks. You apparently do not get how vaccines work.

1. Some people can't take the vaccine. They rely on herd immunity. They rely on you getting the vaccine so that the presence of the virus is low. Go look at pictures of infants who suffer through things like measles and mumps and whooping cough because people won't do their damned jobs as human beings and get vaccines.
2. The vaccine won't be effective at all for some people. They rely on herd immunity. See number one.
3. The vaccine is not 100% effective or frankly close to it. An individual is protected by getting a vaccine but what really seals the deal is if enough people get the vaccine. If I have the vaccine and have a 10% chance of getting infected, what protects me is that if everyone only has a 10% chance of getting infected, the virus does not have kindling to start a fire. That is how vaccines work. They require a certain level of adoption among the population. They are not your personal shield.
4. Everything has risk in life. Vaccines have risk. It is exceedingly low and much lower than the risk of Covid, but it has risk. And the bottom line is that people like you freeload off the rest of us. You won't take that risk because you hope to get the benefit of me taking that risk for you.
5. Frankly, a KN95 mask is pretty much as effective as a vaccine in personal protection. So you don't have a right to ask anyone else to wear a mask if that is your justification.


I am frankly sick and tired of the utter stupidity and selfishness of people in this country that eliminates all possibility of any kind of reasonable response to a pandemic. People who won't wear masks have prolonged this pandemic, made it much worse, and have destroyed the livelihoods of many. People who don't get the vaccine will do the same. We will not get through Covid in 2021 if people don't get vaccinated. Period.

I don't give a shyte about whatever stupid crunchy granola, holistic medicine liberal bullshyte excuse people have or whatever bizarre other crap you want to convince yourselves gives you an excuse not to suck it up and do what is good for your country, your community and your fellow man.

Get the effing vaccine or do not come back here complaining about people not willing to wear masks or other precautions. Fighting this disease is all about using every tool in the box. As I said above, the proper course is to get the vaccine, continue to wear your mask and take reasonable precautions until we have driven this virus into the dust.

To sum it up, stop being stupid, moronic, selfish effing asshat *****s and wear an effing mask and get the effing vaccine when it comes available. If you won't do that, you deserve to be pointed out as the stupid, moronic, selfish asshat *****s that you are.

---

I get the impression that OaktownBear is serious about this, guys (also correct). Just take the vaccine, okay?

And for the record...

a) I declared, way up thread, that I will take the vaccine ASAP (kidding about the chat-and-cut though!).

b) helltopay1 praises me sometimes, in a crafty effort to divide us. Don't cut me out of the "leftie club"!

BearsWiin said:

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Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

---

The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

oski003 said:

---

BearsWiin said:

---

Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

---

The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

---

That article cited 37 cases in the US across several vaccines over a 39 year period.

As stated, vaccines have risks. Risks that are much lower than the disease they are designed to defend against.

Just wanted to say thanks to oski003 for providing detailed and informed information to help us evaluate the vaccines.

OaktownBear said:

---

oski003 said:

---

BearsWiin said:

---

Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

---

The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

---

That article cited 37 cases in the US across several vaccines over a 39 year period.

As stated, vaccines have risks. Risks that are much lower than the disease they are designed to defend against.

---

2 cases in one trial that hadn't yet enrolled 10,000 people is pretty significant versus something happening 37 times in 39 years.

As for the UK, their population of 67 million people has 300 new cases of tranverse myelitis each year, which is about .0004% occurrence.

The Astra covid trial had an occurrence rate of .02% A person in the Astra trial was 5,000 times more likely to get tranverse myelitis than the average person in the UK.

oski003 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

oski003 said:

---

BearsWiin said:

---

Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

---

The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

---

That article cited 37 cases in the US across several vaccines over a 39 year period.

As stated, vaccines have risks. Risks that are much lower than the disease they are designed to defend against.

---

2 cases in one trial that hadn't yet enrolled 10,000 people is pretty significant versus something happening 37 times in 39 years.

As for the UK, their population of 67 million people has 300 new cases of tranverse myelitis each year, which is about .0004% occurrence.

The Astra covid trial had an occurrence rate of .02% A person in the Astra trial was 5,000 times more likely to get tranverse myelitis than the average person in the UK.

---

You are attributing every case of an illness to vaccines. That is just not true.

You are assuming that both cases in the trial were caused by the vaccine. When the number of cases is 2, using percentages is not statistically valid. It should be looked at very closely. I don't see your back up for your claim that the vaccine caused the issue.

And, the other two vaccines are more effective and have had no cases nor would they expect to since they work differently.

OaktownBear said:

---

oski003 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

oski003 said:

---

BearsWiin said:

---

Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

---

The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

---

That article cited 37 cases in the US across several vaccines over a 39 year period.

As stated, vaccines have risks. Risks that are much lower than the disease they are designed to defend against.

---

2 cases in one trial that hadn't yet enrolled 10,000 people is pretty significant versus something happening 37 times in 39 years.

As for the UK, their population of 67 million people has 300 new cases of tranverse myelitis each year, which is about .0004% occurrence.

The Astra covid trial had an occurrence rate of .02% A person in the Astra trial was 5,000 times more likely to get tranverse myelitis than the average person in the UK.

---

You are attributing every case of an illness to vaccines. That is just not true.

You are assuming that both cases in the trial were caused by the vaccine. When the number of cases is 2, using percentages is not statistically valid. It should be looked at very closely. I don't see your back up for your claim that the vaccine caused the issue.

And, the other two vaccines are more effective and have had no cases nor would they expect to since they work differently.

---

Both people who had transverse myelitis were in the vaccine group. One incident is a halt, investigate, and continue. Two is statistically significant. At best, the review board decided that they could not definitely attribute the tranverse myelitis to the vaccine. I disagree with their decision based on the facts I know.

I do not understand your last sentence about effectiveness. As far as effectiveness, I believe that the mRNA vaccines are effective within 30 days of the second dose. The trial was wrapped up before some volunteers got their second dose! We have no information on length of immunity and would normally go by T Cell data in this regard.

Pfizer has given zero T Cell data and Moderna's is lackluster. On the other hand, they do create a good amount of antibodies, which should last at least 4 months.

oski003 said:

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BearsWiin said:

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Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

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The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

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FWIW the AstraZeneca vaccine uses a monkey adenovirus, and the Janssen/J&J uses a human adenovirus. The AstraZeneca people think it's better to use a monkey virus because humans are much less likely to have been exposed at all, so their immune systems will be more likely to attack it as an unknown foreign invader than they would a human adenovirus that some might have already been exposed to (or resembles too closely one already in circulation).

One might also point out that in the two months since the initial reports of transverse myelitis, no new cases have been reported as the trials have continued and new subjects have been recruited and injected.

BearsWiin said:

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oski003 said:

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BearsWiin said:

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Vaccines are about balancing risk. Every time my kids got vaccinated, their pediatrician told us about potential adverse effects. Hell, every medication I get from the pharmacy has a sheet about potential adverse effects, some very serious. I still take the meds when my doc prescribes them.

Astrazeneca was also stopped at one point because a second participant developed complications, because of undiagnosed MS. This underscores what we already knew, that not everyone can safely take the vaccines. So it's incumbent for the rest of us to take them, to develop herd immunity and protect those who cannot take them.

In large scale trials, people are going to have problems. Sometimes those problems are linked to the trial treatment, and sometimes those problems are things that would have happened anyway. Each of the three major Phase III trials so far has been large, with no significant problems. I'd gladly take any of the three.

---

The transverse myelitis in the Astra Zeneca trial was caused by the vaccine. Both the Astra and J&J trials use deactivated adenovirus to transmit the vaccine. Because the virus is deactivated, it can enter a cell but cannot spread to other cells. Therefore, the spike protein DNA is carried with MILLIONS of deactivated monkey cold virus particles to make sure that it is effective (a a traditional vaccine can replicate).

The two cases of traverse myelitis, which we are told is coincidentally undiagnosed MS, were both in the same trial of 10,000 participants, and this is alarming. To continue the trials in the United States, both JnJ and Astra require a waiver acknowledge the slight risk of nerve issues upon trialing the vaccine. This was added during the halt of both vaccines. When the JnJ vaccine was halted, the public was never told the reason. JnJ CMO heads the board that coordinates the public/private partnership between OWS and BARDA.

Astra charges only $4.50 for each vaccine. Astra's vaccine will be ready soon, and unlike the MRNA vaccines, it is easy to ship and store (The MRNA vaccines are incredibly costly to produce, especially Moderna's, which is more than 3x the dose of Pfizer's).

Because Covid 19 is deadly, spreading, and damaging economies and people's livelihoods, governments are willing to overlook the dangers of this particular vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19880568/

Also, adenovirus vector vaccines have another shortcoming. They are less effective as people develop immunities to the deactivated cold virus. If boosters are needed, a new vaccine would need to be created.

---

FWIW the AstraZeneca vaccine uses a monkey adenovirus, and the Janssen/J&J uses a human adenovirus. The AstraZeneca people think it's better to use a monkey virus because humans are much less likely to have been exposed at all, so their immune systems will be more likely to attack it as an unknown foreign invader than they would a human adenovirus that some might have already been exposed to (or resembles too closely one already in circulation).

One might also point out that in the two months since the initial reports of transverse myelitis, no new cases have been reported as the trials have continued and new subjects have been recruited and injected.

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1) Agree that that is the reason why Astra/ Oxford is using a monkey virus. Disagree with your explanation but the jist is correct. You dont want antibodies against the cold virus to prevent your body from fully encountering the spike protein. Interestingly, that could be why Astra was more effective with the small 90% effective subset that accidentally did a half dose on the first shot. The booster shot was more effective because the body didnt develop immunity to it yet.

On the flip side, this further shows that Astra likely cant be boosted by itself in the future and that their press release is extremely misleading. They sure got the media to lap up the 90% effective number though.

2) Agree here. Except for the hidden from the public reason that JnJ's trial was halted, Astra appears not to have had another volunteer with nerve damage. This is a good thing, and I hope it holds as we possibly vaccinate millions.

Please note that Astra did not start their U.S. P3 until October 26. Almost all participants have not received their second dose.

OaktownBear said:

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heartofthebear said:

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No
I don't think the vaccine will solve the problem with the virus.
I have other ways to boost my immune system and avoid getting the disease.

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This is where we part ways my friend. Your willingness to believe in non-biomedical remedies with no scientific evidence is your business. When people with like minds water down the population based efficacy of vaccines it is all of our business. You can impact "getting the disease" by healthy practices if "getting the disease" means you don't exhibit symptoms, but you cannot avoid taking in the virus and spreading it to others.

Thankfully, Covid, unlike some other diseases which people refuse to vaccinate against, does not impact infants before they can get vaccines. However, this type of vaccine is not 100% effective. We will rely on a very significant majority of the population getting the vaccine to knock this thing out. We can add a significant amount of protection to an 80 year old man with a vaccine, but he is still susceptible if the virus is in the community and he can't change that by drinking green juice. If a significant number of people refuse to get the vaccine, old people who have gotten the vaccine, who have good diets, who have done as much as they can do, will die. Period.

As I have said, I'm sure your lifestyle is healthier than mine. Good for you. It isn't better for this.

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Suffice it to say, we both have our "beliefs". What you call science, is your belief that it is science. But science is directed by large interests like vaccine companies, for instance. Much of science is suppressed specifically by the AMA, which has made cancer cures illegal. That's right, it is illegal to call something a cure. It can only be a treatment, thanks to the AMA. Many cancer workers have had to leave the country to continue practicing. I am not against science but somehow scientific based expertise has to migrate outside the country in order to practice science. Science and medicine in this country is one of many areas of corruption supported by both major political parties.

I am not a conspiracy theorist who believes everything on youtube like Trump does, but I belong to a minority of professionals, experts and academics who see things a bit differently.

BTW, I don't think I am necessarily healthier than you, and my view on vaccines has nothing to do with my personal health practices.

You see, because I am an independent, I am able to think independently of party lines. When I was a democrat I was all for vaccines and many other things I never questioned. Direct experience, not belief, over the course of my life has led me to question many of my personal sacred cows. And I've changed. I try to think independently about things, not attached to what many believe and free of worries about what others might think.

All I can say is that I've been right far more than I've been wrong. And I haven't regretted my chosen path.

I will not interfere with a persons choice to advocate for and/or take vaccines. And I realize that, for vaccines to work, a large majority of the population has to cooperate. But that does not mean that I should take them nor does that mean that I am failing to care for my fellow American if I don't.

I have looked at the science as best I can and I do not agree with vaccination as a methodology here. And I'm sure I will lose friends over this. Such is life.

There is a way to address this disease and others. Strengthen the lymph system, something American doctors systematically ignore. The lymph system is responsible for detoxifying and removing cellular waste. Many Americans have lymph backup and can't eliminate toxicity and so it builds in the body, creating a welcoming environment for things like "viruses" which are just proteins that become toxic due to an acidified fluid level in the lymph. The lymph is also infinitely related to the immune system. Actually it is an essential part of it.

The appropriate treatment of the body, via lymph system can make vaccines irrelevant. And there are effective treatments on the way specific for covid 19 so why the big emphasis on vaccines? Because there is big money in it, that's why. I'm sure many people's stock portfolio is riding on the vaccines.

Just to be clear, I'm not a Bill Gates hater or believe that he or anybody else created this illness to support his pro-vaccination agenda. The disease came out of some diseased animal somewhere. It could have come from factory farming. It could have come from animals weakened because global climate change damaged the habitat of the animal. It could have come from the tons of plastics in the world entering the food chain and causing some genetic or cellular defect as a result. It could have come from a market in China. There are so many reasons for these types of things to exist these days. And relying on vaccines is not going to help us with the next one and the one after that. Because each vaccine will take 1-2 years to develop. So a 1-2 year lag time multiplied by each and every pandemic queuing up and ready to break out is not the kind of math that works for humanity. But it is the type of math that works for the stock market.

Anarchistbear said:

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I don't think so. Nobody knows whether you are vaccinated or not so it doesn't have power as a symbol.

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I saw where Quantas will require proof of vaccination to board their planes.

Other airlines are expected to follow suit. Apps are already developed to show proof of vaccination.

Rest assured it will be known if you are vaccinated; take a trip Down Under, humming 'Walking to Australia'
when Quantas leaves you on the tarmac.

Saw a poll that 80% of Trump voters will not get vaccinated, thus herd immunity cannot be achieved.

The pandemic will not end, we will be trapped inside Fortress America; the rest of the world will not let us out.

The Grump Legacy

sp4149 said:

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Anarchistbear said:

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I don't think so. Nobody knows whether you are vaccinated or not so it doesn't have power as a symbol.

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I saw where Quantas will require proof of vaccination to board their planes.

Other airlines are expected to follow suit. Apps are already developed to show proof of vaccination.

Rest assured it will be known if you are vaccinated; take a trip Down Under, humming 'Walking to Australia'
when Quantas leaves you on the tarmac.

Saw a poll that 80% of Trump voters will not get vaccinated, thus herd immunity cannot be achieved.

The pandemic will not end, we will be trapped inside Fortress America; the rest of the world will not let us out.

The Grump Legacy

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Not true. They are busy building immunity the hard way.

No
I'll let others be the guinea pig first. Trump has tainted my confidence.

You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

concordtom said:

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No
I'll let others be the guinea pig first. Trump has tainted my confidence.

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Yeah, but that's not really a factor anymore. Trump won't be President when the vaccine comes out.

Implement in March 2021, I'll be there in July, and stay SiP until September 2021.
It's time to update my will.

You can depend on us to do the right thing.

Can we depend on all the happy "wandering idiots of denial"?

concordtom said:

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You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

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You just need to unclog your lymph and everything will be OK

The medical establishment wants to kill you

You may have "science," but he's got anecdotal experience on his side

Sometimes you just have to roll your eyes and walk away, and hope he stays holed up in the SC hills

BearsWiin said:

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concordtom said:

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You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

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You just need to unclog your lymph and everything will be OK

The medical establishment wants to kill you

You may have "science," but he's got anecdotal experience on his side

Sometimes you just have to roll your eyes and walk away, and hope he stays holed up in the SC hills

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Yeah. Look, I make no claim to be a medical expert here, but just to my layman's eyes that whole heartofthebear post reads like crazytown.

sycasey said:

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BearsWiin said:

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concordtom said:

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You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

---

You just need to unclog your lymph and everything will be OK

The medical establishment wants to kill you

You may have "science," but he's got anecdotal experience on his side

Sometimes you just have to roll your eyes and walk away, and hope he stays holed up in the SC hills

---

Yeah. Look, I make no claim to be a medical expert here, but just to my layman's eyes that whole heartofthebear post reads like crazytown.

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Ya think?

sycasey said:

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Yeah. Look, I make no claim to be a medical expert here, but just to my layman's eyes that whole heartofthebear post reads like crazytown.

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fair to say most of us have out there moments.

concordtom said:

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You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

---

I don't believe in vaccinating a protein. I don't know about the others but I have no wholesale bias against vaccines and I have taken some. There are others I have not taken without negative consequences. The flu shot I have taken and not taken with similar results either way.

The trouble with many of these debates is that it relies on the beliefs each of us holds as to which science is more "scientific" and which authorities are trustworthy. One persons sacred cow is another persons personal betrayer. There is no standard that is honorable and agreed upon when it comes to truth, science or knowledge. So I don't rely and outsiders so much as I rely on direct personal experience.

I can say quite honestly that I have repeatedly created and eliminated disease like symptoms in my body just by altering my diet one way and then back again.

Full disclosure. I am a food addict. I indulge outside of my preferred diet on a semi-regular basis. The impact is so consistent that it is predictable. I now which symptoms I am going to have before I have them based on what I have eaten.

The food, meat, dairy, coffee, wheat, sugar and additive industries are so powerful that they have infiltrated the health industry quite significantly. So, yes I do take vaccines on occasion and no I don't trust the medical basis for much of the disease model promoted by the AMA, the FDA and the biomedical industry.

One piece of evidence for this corruption is that certain health practices, like nutritional therapies, are much more widely and successfully practiced at a fraction of the cost in other countries. Meanwhile the status of Americans in the world health picture has steadily plummeted while folks pay more. I wonder why? The answer is not an accident. The answer is about profit.