You could have saved everyone involved, including yourself, a whole lot of time and effort if you had just said up front that you don't understand science, and left it at that

Folks, let this be a cautionary tale. This is what happens when you scramble down the rabbit hole of epistemic uncertainty and just keep going

AstraZeneca-manufacturing-error clouds vaccine study results
By DANICA KIRKA
an hour ago

LONDON (AP) AstraZeneca and Oxford University on Wednesday acknowledged a manufacturing error that is raising questions about preliminary results of their experimental COVID-19 vaccine.

A statement describing the error came days after the company and the university described the shots as "highly effective" and made no mention of why some study participants didn't receive as much vaccine in the first of two shots as expected.

In a surprise, the group of volunteers that got a lower dose seemed to be much better protected than the volunteers who got two full doses. In the low-dose group, AstraZeneca said, the vaccine appeared to be 90% effective. In the group that got two full doses, the vaccine appeared to be 62% effective. Combined, the drugmakers said the vaccine appeared to be 70% effective. But the way in which the results were arrived at and reported by the companies has led to pointed questions from experts.

The partial results announced Monday are from large ongoing studies in the U.K. and Brazil designed to determine the optimal dose of vaccine, as well as examine safety and effectiveness. Multiple combinations and doses were tried in the volunteers. They were compared to others who were given a meningitis vaccine or a saline shot.

DID RESEARCHERS MEAN TO GIVE A HALF DOSE?

Before they begin their research, scientists spell out all the steps they are taking, and how they will analyze the results. Any deviation from that protocol can put the results in question.

In a statement Wednesday, Oxford University said some of the vials used in the trial didn't have the right concentration of vaccine so some volunteers got a half dose. The university said that it discussed the problem with regulators, and agreed to complete the late stage trial with two groups. The manufacturing problem has been corrected, according to the statement.

WHAT ABOUT THE RESULTS THEMSELVES?

Experts say the relatively small number of people in the low dose group makes it difficult to know if the effectiveness seen in the group is real or a statistical quirk. Some 2,741 people received a half dose of the vaccine followed by a full dose, AstraZeneca said. A total of 8,895 people received two full doses.

Another factor: none of the people in the low-dose group were over 55 years old. Younger people tend to mount a stronger immune response than older people, so it could be that the youth of the participants in the low-dose group is why it looked more effective, not the size of the dose.

Another point of confusion comes from a decision to pool results from two groups of participants who received different dosing levels to reach an average 70% effectiveness, said David Salisbury, and associate fellow of the global health program at the Chatham House think tank.

"You've taken two studies for which different doses were used and come up with a composite that doesn't represent either of the doses,? he said of the figure. "I think many people are having trouble with that.?

WHY WOULD A SMALLER FIRST DOSE BE MORE EFFECTIVE?

Oxford researchers say they aren't certain and they are working to uncover the reason.

Sarah Gilbert, one of the Oxford scientists leading the research, said the answer is probably related to providing exactly the right amount of vaccine to trigger the best immune response.

"It's the Goldilocks amount that you want, I think, not too little and not too much. Too much could give you a poor quality response as well," she said. "So you want just the right amount and it's a bit hit and miss when you're trying to go quickly to get that perfect first time."

WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS?

Details of the trial results will be published in medical journals and provided to U.K. regulators so they can decide whether to authorize distribution of the vaccine. Those reports will include a detailed breakdown that includes demographic and other information about who got sick in each group, and give a more complete picture of how effective the vaccine is.

Moncef Slaoui, who leads the U.S. coronavirus vaccine program Operation Warp Speed, said Tuesday in a call with reporters that U.S. officials are trying to determine what immune response the vaccine produced, and may decide to modify the AstraZeneca study in the U.S. to include a half dose.

"But we want it to be based on data and science," he said.

oski003 said:

---

AstraZeneca-manufacturing-error clouds vaccine study results
By DANICA KIRKA
an hour ago

LONDON (AP) AstraZeneca and Oxford University on Wednesday acknowledged a manufacturing error that is raising questions about preliminary results of their experimental COVID-19 vaccine.

A statement describing the error came days after the company and the university described the shots as "highly effective" and made no mention of why some study participants didn't receive as much vaccine in the first of two shots as expected.

In a surprise, the group of volunteers that got a lower dose seemed to be much better protected than the volunteers who got two full doses. In the low-dose group, AstraZeneca said, the vaccine appeared to be 90% effective. In the group that got two full doses, the vaccine appeared to be 62% effective. Combined, the drugmakers said the vaccine appeared to be 70% effective. But the way in which the results were arrived at and reported by the companies has led to pointed questions from experts.

The partial results announced Monday are from large ongoing studies in the U.K. and Brazil designed to determine the optimal dose of vaccine, as well as examine safety and effectiveness. Multiple combinations and doses were tried in the volunteers. They were compared to others who were given a meningitis vaccine or a saline shot.

DID RESEARCHERS MEAN TO GIVE A HALF DOSE?

Before they begin their research, scientists spell out all the steps they are taking, and how they will analyze the results. Any deviation from that protocol can put the results in question.

In a statement Wednesday, Oxford University said some of the vials used in the trial didn't have the right concentration of vaccine so some volunteers got a half dose. The university said that it discussed the problem with regulators, and agreed to complete the late stage trial with two groups. The manufacturing problem has been corrected, according to the statement.

WHAT ABOUT THE RESULTS THEMSELVES?

Experts say the relatively small number of people in the low dose group makes it difficult to know if the effectiveness seen in the group is real or a statistical quirk. Some 2,741 people received a half dose of the vaccine followed by a full dose, AstraZeneca said. A total of 8,895 people received two full doses.

Another factor: none of the people in the low-dose group were over 55 years old. Younger people tend to mount a stronger immune response than older people, so it could be that the youth of the participants in the low-dose group is why it looked more effective, not the size of the dose.

Another point of confusion comes from a decision to pool results from two groups of participants who received different dosing levels to reach an average 70% effectiveness, said David Salisbury, and associate fellow of the global health program at the Chatham House think tank.

"You've taken two studies for which different doses were used and come up with a composite that doesn't represent either of the doses,? he said of the figure. "I think many people are having trouble with that.?

WHY WOULD A SMALLER FIRST DOSE BE MORE EFFECTIVE?

Oxford researchers say they aren't certain and they are working to uncover the reason.

Sarah Gilbert, one of the Oxford scientists leading the research, said the answer is probably related to providing exactly the right amount of vaccine to trigger the best immune response.

"It's the Goldilocks amount that you want, I think, not too little and not too much. Too much could give you a poor quality response as well," she said. "So you want just the right amount and it's a bit hit and miss when you're trying to go quickly to get that perfect first time."

WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS?

Details of the trial results will be published in medical journals and provided to U.K. regulators so they can decide whether to authorize distribution of the vaccine. Those reports will include a detailed breakdown that includes demographic and other information about who got sick in each group, and give a more complete picture of how effective the vaccine is.

Moncef Slaoui, who leads the U.S. coronavirus vaccine program Operation Warp Speed, said Tuesday in a call with reporters that U.S. officials are trying to determine what immune response the vaccine produced, and may decide to modify the AstraZeneca study in the U.S. to include a half dose.

"But we want it to be based on data and science," he said.

---

This is why people will be reluctant to get the vaccine when it is first released.

bearister said:

---

"Nobody knows whether you are vaccinated or not.."

Us boomers got branded for life with the smallpox vaccination.

---

Is that what the scar on my right shoulder is? Small pox?

heartofthebear said:

---

concordtom said:

---

You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

---

I don't believe in vaccinating a protein. I don't know about the others but I have no wholesale bias against vaccines and I have taken some. There are others I have not taken without negative consequences. The flu shot I have taken and not taken with similar results either way.

The trouble with many of these debates is that it relies on the beliefs each of us holds as to which science is more "scientific" and which authorities are trustworthy. One persons sacred cow is another persons personal betrayer. There is no standard that is honorable and agreed upon when it comes to truth, science or knowledge. So I don't rely and outsiders so much as I rely on direct personal experience.

I can say quite honestly that I have repeatedly created and eliminated disease like symptoms in my body just by altering my diet one way and then back again.

Full disclosure. I am a food addict. I indulge outside of my preferred diet on a semi-regular basis. The impact is so consistent that it is predictable. I now which symptoms I am going to have before I have them based on what I have eaten.

The food, meat, dairy, coffee, wheat, sugar and additive industries are so powerful that they have infiltrated the health industry quite significantly. So, yes I do take vaccines on occasion and no I don't trust the medical basis for much of the disease model promoted by the AMA, the FDA and the biomedical industry.

One piece of evidence for this corruption is that certain health practices, like nutritional therapies, are much more widely and successfully practiced at a fraction of the cost in other countries. Meanwhile the status of Americans in the world health picture has steadily plummeted while folks pay more. I wonder why? The answer is not an accident. The answer is about profit.

---

So, what is your preferred diet for healthy living? Vegan?

Kaworu said:

---

concordtom said:

---

No
I'll let others be the guinea pig first. Trump has tainted my confidence.

---

Yeah, but that's not really a factor anymore. Trump won't be President when the vaccine comes out.

---

I believe in vaccines, sure!
I just heard for many months how trump would rush a vaccine result to come out just before the election. I knew this was said merely to get him elected, and such meddling, even if in his words only, has deteriorated my confidence in THIS vaccine. And sure enough, AstraZeneca news today edits their prior vaccine announcement.

Basically, with any vaccine, one should have confidence in what they are injecting. Trump made a shotshow out of this entire saga and so confidence is eroded. But, we will hear scientists talk about the process, I'm sure, in a big way soon. AND, I'm not first in line by age (52), so by the time I'm due for injection many months from now, it will be a different set of circumstances in my head. I was just saying if I were to show up today.

Another curious question:
Multiple vaccines coming online. Which will be the best?? Again, hoping to have more clarity by the time my number is called.

Finally, F Trump!!!!!

And lol how so many companies waited until just after the election to announce their positive results. You think that was coincidental?? I think not.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/11/26/peter-doshi-pfizer-and-modernas-95-effective-vaccines-lets-be-cautious-and-first-see-the-full-data/

Thx for the rundown of where the firms are at so far.

oski003 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Kaworu said:

---

concordtom said:

---

No
I'll let others be the guinea pig first. Trump has tainted my confidence.

---

Yeah, but that's not really a factor anymore. Trump won't be President when the vaccine comes out.

---

I believe in vaccines, sure!
I just heard for many months how trump would rush a vaccine result to come out just before the election. I knew this was said merely to get him elected, and such meddling, even if in his words only, has deteriorated my confidence in THIS vaccine. And sure enough, AstraZeneca news today edits their prior vaccine announcement.

Basically, with any vaccine, one should have confidence in what they are injecting. Trump made a shotshow out of this entire saga and so confidence is eroded. But, we will hear scientists talk about the process, I'm sure, in a big way soon. AND, I'm not first in line by age (52), so by the time I'm due for injection many months from now, it will be a different set of circumstances in my head. I was just saying if I were to show up today.

Another curious question:
Multiple vaccines coming online. Which will be the best?? Again, hoping to have more clarity by the time my number is called.

Finally, F Trump!!!!!

And lol how so many companies waited until just after the election to announce their positive results. You think that was coincidental?? I think not.

---

Which vaccine will be the best? I believe covid 19 is an easy target re effectiveness as long as it doesnt mutate. However, many vaccine platforms may only last 6-12 months.

Here is who and why...

1) Merck - this one wont be ready for a while and in limited quantities. it may be the only platform that will be safe, extremely effective, and long lasting. it is based on the measles vaccine. i am saying this solely on Merck's track record and the likelihood that this concept works.

2) Sanofi protein based vaccine

Proven vs the flu. known track record. likely needs a boost after a year.

3) Inovio DNA vaccine

No side effects. Held up by lack of inclusion in OWS/politics.

4) Novavax protein vaccine

Same as Sanofi but lacks the proven track record. Some side effects from Matrix M bark adjuvant.

5) Pfizer MRNA vaccine

Great on antibodies but terrible side effects. No side effects have reported to have lasted more than 3 days. Volunteers have reported otherwise but they could be anti-vaxxers.

6) Moderna mRNA vaccine.

Same as Pfizer but more than triple the dose. 100 ug vs 30 ug.

7). Tie - AZN and JnJ ... AZN has data issues, has been thoroughly dishonest, and has had two cases of transvere myelitis in their vaccine volunteer group. they also gave volunteers aspirin to mask side effects. JnJ has been completely secretive and was halted for a grade 4 side effect that has been hidden from the public.

Vaxart and Altimmune also use the adenovirus vector platform but different delivery methods. Both China and Sputnik use adenovirus as well.

---

You keep saying that the Pfizer side effects are terrible. From what I've heard they are not worse than the shingrix vaccine, for shingles. That one has significant side effects, in some people, but they only last a day or two. It's like getting a cold, or having significant allergies, but only for a brief time. And most people don't get themI didn't, my wife did. BFD!!at least I am >90% protected from shingles, much better than the previous vaccine fewer side effects but only 50% effective.

To achieve the freedom of living my life normally, these minor side effects are a tiny price to pay! And the risk of other inflammatory diseases is still uncertain and, if real, very infrequent. I can't believe people would risk getting this disease, or risk the lives of others by being a potential spreader of the virus, to avoid a little discomfort and a tiny risk of worse outcomes.

The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.

Good stuff in this thread

Bearprof said:

---

The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.

---

It's a great point, and I have no problem with that.
The problem is that the vaccine is associated in some ways with trump and that stench needs to air out.
It is illogical, but in some way, a corner of my mind sees him blending a cocktail of vomit, slapping a sticker on it, and paying off the approval process doctors to say "it works".
Like, trump probably figured out a way to make money off any vaccine, and of course it's going to fund his lifestyle prostitutes in jets.
Put him in jail, have someone I trust overseeing it, and then I'll listen.
Otherwise, with trump, it's Opposite Day. Everything he says is a lie. He goes out of his way to lie about things that don't need to be lied about.
He is unhinged from reality.

When was the last time he played at h with Baron on the WH lawn, took him fishing, or even on one of the many golfing days?

Horrible father. Horrible person. Die already, please!

Then I'll get a vaccine.

Bearprof said:

---

oski003 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Kaworu said:

---

concordtom said:

---

No
I'll let others be the guinea pig first. Trump has tainted my confidence.

---

Yeah, but that's not really a factor anymore. Trump won't be President when the vaccine comes out.

---

I believe in vaccines, sure!
I just heard for many months how trump would rush a vaccine result to come out just before the election. I knew this was said merely to get him elected, and such meddling, even if in his words only, has deteriorated my confidence in THIS vaccine. And sure enough, AstraZeneca news today edits their prior vaccine announcement.

Basically, with any vaccine, one should have confidence in what they are injecting. Trump made a shotshow out of this entire saga and so confidence is eroded. But, we will hear scientists talk about the process, I'm sure, in a big way soon. AND, I'm not first in line by age (52), so by the time I'm due for injection many months from now, it will be a different set of circumstances in my head. I was just saying if I were to show up today.

Another curious question:
Multiple vaccines coming online. Which will be the best?? Again, hoping to have more clarity by the time my number is called.

Finally, F Trump!!!!!

And lol how so many companies waited until just after the election to announce their positive results. You think that was coincidental?? I think not.

---

Which vaccine will be the best? I believe covid 19 is an easy target re effectiveness as long as it doesnt mutate. However, many vaccine platforms may only last 6-12 months.

Here is who and why...

1) Merck - this one wont be ready for a while and in limited quantities. it may be the only platform that will be safe, extremely effective, and long lasting. it is based on the measles vaccine. i am saying this solely on Merck's track record and the likelihood that this concept works.

2) Sanofi protein based vaccine

Proven vs the flu. known track record. likely needs a boost after a year.

3) Inovio DNA vaccine

No side effects. Held up by lack of inclusion in OWS/politics.

4) Novavax protein vaccine

Same as Sanofi but lacks the proven track record. Some side effects from Matrix M bark adjuvant.

5) Pfizer MRNA vaccine

Great on antibodies but terrible side effects. No side effects have reported to have lasted more than 3 days. Volunteers have reported otherwise but they could be anti-vaxxers.

6) Moderna mRNA vaccine.

Same as Pfizer but more than triple the dose. 100 ug vs 30 ug.

7). Tie - AZN and JnJ ... AZN has data issues, has been thoroughly dishonest, and has had two cases of transvere myelitis in their vaccine volunteer group. they also gave volunteers aspirin to mask side effects. JnJ has been completely secretive and was halted for a grade 4 side effect that has been hidden from the public.

Vaxart and Altimmune also use the adenovirus vector platform but different delivery methods. Both China and Sputnik use adenovirus as well.

---

You keep saying that the Pfizer side effects are terrible. From what I've heard they are not worse than the shingrix vaccine, for shingles. That one has significant side effects, in some people, but they only last a day or two. It's like getting a cold, or having significant allergies, but only for a brief time. And most people don't get themI didn't, my wife did. BFD!!at least I am >90% protected from shingles, much better than the previous vaccine fewer side effects but only 50% effective.

To achieve the freedom of living my life normally, these minor side effects are a tiny price to pay! And the risk of other inflammatory diseases is still uncertain and, if real, very infrequent. I can't believe people would risk getting this disease, or risk the lives of others by being a potential spreader of the virus, to avoid a little discomfort and a tiny risk of worse outcomes.

The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.

---

It is not surprising that you believe that the shingle side effects are worse because that is the company line. Whatever vaccine is available now is going to go out because it is a situation where any action is viewed as positive even if it is not the best choice.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10459507/

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2013/583438/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287387193_Development_and_Evaluation_of_Lipid_Nanoparticles_for_Drug_Delivery_Study_of_Toxicity_In_Vitro_and_In_Vivo

Why are there so many side effects here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332979905_mRNA_vaccines_against_H10N8_and_H7N9_influenza_viruses_of_pandemic_potential_are_immunogenic_and_well_tolerated_in_healthy_adults_in_phase_1_randomized_clinical_trials-NC-ND_license_httpcreativecommon

and here:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483?query=WB


yet hardly any here:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(19)30266-X/fulltext

concordtom said:

---

Bearprof said:

---

The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.

---

It's a great point, and I have no problem with that.
The problem is that the vaccine is associated in some ways with trump and that stench needs to air out.
It is illogical, but in some way, a corner of my mind sees him blending a cocktail of vomit, slapping a sticker on it, and paying off the approval process doctors to say "it works".
Like, trump probably figured out a way to make money off any vaccine, and of course it's going to fund his lifestyle prostitutes in jets.
Put him in jail, have someone I trust overseeing it, and then I'll listen.
Otherwise, with trump, it's Opposite Day. Everything he says is a lie. He goes out of his way to lie about things that don't need to be lied about.
He is unhinged from reality.

When was the last time he played at h with Baron on the WH lawn, took him fishing, or even on one of the many golfing days?

Horrible father. Horrible person. Die already, please!

Then I'll get a vaccine.

---

At least you seem to understand that this is a you problem

You need to divorce your personal feelings about an incompetent ignorant buffoon from the international scientific/tech/commercial process of developing multiple vaccines over which the incompetent ignorant buffoon has very little if any direct influence. Nobody is going to do it for you

BearsWiin said:

---

You could have saved everyone involved, including yourself, a whole lot of time and effort if you had just said up front that you don't understand science, and left it at that

Folks, let this be a cautionary tale. This is what happens when you scramble down the rabbit hole of epistemic uncertainty and just keep going

---

No, it just means that I have no idea what drives all of the diseases that have vaccines associated with them. I do know a bit about covid.

I am on the fence about vaccines in general. But I know that thia vaccine is not my preferred method of dealing with this virus for myself. And I would prefer to avoid taking it because I don't think it is being evaluated well enough to make me feel it is safe.

Some of the older vaccines have been well vetted and seem safe to me. I don't have trouble taking them, because, on balance, I don't feel strongly one way or another about them and I might as well err on the side of caution.

As far as science is concerned, I guess your comment is based on the fact that I think that each vaccine is different. I don't know but I know that not all vaccines are vetted equally and not all vaccines have the same carrying agent ("non active" ingredient). As for how vaccines work, I assume they all work the same--by stimulating the immune system to produce "anti-bodies" that will help fight the virus. This is done by injecting a small but safe amount of the virus into the body. Did I get that right?

The problem is that it isn't that simple. In fact, just the term antibody is confusing. It is unclear which parts of the immune system are producing antibodies. When you inject something into a body so that it produces "antibodies" you are assuming that the body is healthy enough to respond so that antibodies are produced and you are assuming that the dead cells from fighting off the virus is elimated by a healthy lymph system.

I am not willing to make those assumptions. In fact, there is strong evidence that many Americans have lymph systems that are not working properly because of the rise of autoimmune problems.

But what do I know, I'm down the rabbit hole with the experts that I have studied.

concordtom said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

concordtom said:

---

You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

---

I don't believe in vaccinating a protein. I don't know about the others but I have no wholesale bias against vaccines and I have taken some. There are others I have not taken without negative consequences. The flu shot I have taken and not taken with similar results either way.

The trouble with many of these debates is that it relies on the beliefs each of us holds as to which science is more "scientific" and which authorities are trustworthy. One persons sacred cow is another persons personal betrayer. There is no standard that is honorable and agreed upon when it comes to truth, science or knowledge. So I don't rely and outsiders so much as I rely on direct personal experience.

I can say quite honestly that I have repeatedly created and eliminated disease like symptoms in my body just by altering my diet one way and then back again.

Full disclosure. I am a food addict. I indulge outside of my preferred diet on a semi-regular basis. The impact is so consistent that it is predictable. I now which symptoms I am going to have before I have them based on what I have eaten.

The food, meat, dairy, coffee, wheat, sugar and additive industries are so powerful that they have infiltrated the health industry quite significantly. So, yes I do take vaccines on occasion and no I don't trust the medical basis for much of the disease model promoted by the AMA, the FDA and the biomedical industry.

One piece of evidence for this corruption is that certain health practices, like nutritional therapies, are much more widely and successfully practiced at a fraction of the cost in other countries. Meanwhile the status of Americans in the world health picture has steadily plummeted while folks pay more. I wonder why? The answer is not an accident. The answer is about profit.

---

So, what is your preferred diet for healthy living? Vegan?

---

vegan isn't necessarily any better. It depends on the type. It depends on how you combine food. It depends on how you hydrate. Since nobody is perfect, it depends on how often or the degree of "cheating". It depends on sugar, salt and oil intake and what types. But I would suggest, if you really want to detoxify and have a strong immune system, go on a raw food, primarily fruit diet, with no additives, including any sugars or seasonings. You can combine this diet with certain herbs/teas although I would not take supplements. You can do occasional fasting, either dry or water only for 1 or two days (I would not do a dry fast more than 1 day). You don't have to do this diet all of the time. Just do it when needed. Right now, because of covid, it is needed.

By detoxifying, you will support the lymph to start working properly and that will support the immune system to strengthen the cellular level battle that helps to keep the virus from penetrating the cell wall and incubating there.
The problem for many folks is that the cells do not recognize the virus as invasive because the body is already dealing with many other toxins and cannot distinguish it. So it lets the virus in. A more detoxified body won't have that issue.

That is my understanding anyway, but then again, I'm down in the rabbit hole, so what do I know. LOL--the thing is, lots of top notch scientists and health professionals are down there with me. So, good luck fighting that battle.

"Eat right. Exercise daily. Die anyway."
-Uncredited (but I have my suspicions)

bearister said:

---

"Eat right. Exercise daily. Die anyway."
-Uncredited (but I have my suspicions)

---

LOL
I'm not telling people how to live, but, when it comes to fighting covid, if folks want to live and not "die anyway" my preferred method is to eat right rather than be injected with a poorly researched substance.

The more people that don't want the vaccine, the quicker the rest of us can get it. Ticket Master-and most airlines have said you have to have proof of vaccine to enter once everyone can get it. Gyms and some restaurants will likely follow.

BearsWiin said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Bearprof said:

---

The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.

---

It's a great point, and I have no problem with that.
The problem is that the vaccine is associated in some ways with trump and that stench needs to air out.
It is illogical, but in some way, a corner of my mind sees him blending a cocktail of vomit, slapping a sticker on it, and paying off the approval process doctors to say "it works".
Like, trump probably figured out a way to make money off any vaccine, and of course it's going to fund his lifestyle prostitutes in jets.
Put him in jail, have someone I trust overseeing it, and then I'll listen.
Otherwise, with trump, it's Opposite Day. Everything he says is a lie. He goes out of his way to lie about things that don't need to be lied about.
He is unhinged from reality.

When was the last time he played at h with Baron on the WH lawn, took him fishing, or even on one of the many golfing days?

Horrible father. Horrible person. Die already, please!

Then I'll get a vaccine.

---

At least you seem to understand that this is a you problem

You need to divorce your personal feelings about an incompetent ignorant buffoon from the international scientific/tech/commercial process of developing multiple vaccines over which the incompetent ignorant buffoon has very little if any direct influence. Nobody is going to do it for you

---

Of course I agree.

heartofthebear said:

---

BearsWiin said:

---

You could have saved everyone involved, including yourself, a whole lot of time and effort if you had just said up front that you don't understand science, and left it at that

Folks, let this be a cautionary tale. This is what happens when you scramble down the rabbit hole of epistemic uncertainty and just keep going

---

No, it just means that I have no idea what drives all of the diseases that have vaccines associated with them. I do know a bit about covid.

I am on the fence about vaccines in general. But I know that thia vaccine is not my preferred method of dealing with this virus for myself. And I would prefer to avoid taking it because I don't think it is being evaluated well enough to make me feel it is safe.

Some of the older vaccines have been well vetted and seem safe to me. I don't have trouble taking them, because, on balance, I don't feel strongly one way or another about them and I might as well err on the side of caution.

As far as science is concerned, I guess your comment is based on the fact that I think that each vaccine is different. I don't know but I know that not all vaccines are vetted equally and not all vaccines have the same carrying agent ("non active" ingredient). As for how vaccines work, I assume they all work the same--by stimulating the immune system to produce "anti-bodies" that will help fight the virus. This is done by injecting a small but safe amount of the virus into the body. Did I get that right?

The problem is that it isn't that simple. In fact, just the term antibody is confusing. It is unclear which parts of the immune system are producing antibodies. When you inject something into a body so that it produces "antibodies" you are assuming that the body is healthy enough to respond so that antibodies are produced and you are assuming that the dead cells from fighting off the virus is elimated by a healthy lymph system.

I am not willing to make those assumptions. In fact, there is strong evidence that many Americans have lymph systems that are not working properly because of the rise of autoimmune problems.

But what do I know, I'm down the rabbit hole with the experts that I have studied.

---

Here's my solution.
1) Throw Trump in a dungeon. Shut him up. This will allow space for...
2) Top down messaging about virus, how to overcome it without vaccine, and
3) Education about these vaccines.

Silence the white (trump/GOP/Q) noise. Launch a unified concise plan. It won't be hard now that the idiot is going away.

heartofthebear said:

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concordtom said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

concordtom said:

---

You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

---

I don't believe in vaccinating a protein. I don't know about the others but I have no wholesale bias against vaccines and I have taken some. There are others I have not taken without negative consequences. The flu shot I have taken and not taken with similar results either way.

The trouble with many of these debates is that it relies on the beliefs each of us holds as to which science is more "scientific" and which authorities are trustworthy. One persons sacred cow is another persons personal betrayer. There is no standard that is honorable and agreed upon when it comes to truth, science or knowledge. So I don't rely and outsiders so much as I rely on direct personal experience.

I can say quite honestly that I have repeatedly created and eliminated disease like symptoms in my body just by altering my diet one way and then back again.

Full disclosure. I am a food addict. I indulge outside of my preferred diet on a semi-regular basis. The impact is so consistent that it is predictable. I now which symptoms I am going to have before I have them based on what I have eaten.

The food, meat, dairy, coffee, wheat, sugar and additive industries are so powerful that they have infiltrated the health industry quite significantly. So, yes I do take vaccines on occasion and no I don't trust the medical basis for much of the disease model promoted by the AMA, the FDA and the biomedical industry.

One piece of evidence for this corruption is that certain health practices, like nutritional therapies, are much more widely and successfully practiced at a fraction of the cost in other countries. Meanwhile the status of Americans in the world health picture has steadily plummeted while folks pay more. I wonder why? The answer is not an accident. The answer is about profit.

---

So, what is your preferred diet for healthy living? Vegan?

---

vegan isn't necessarily any better. It depends on the type. It depends on how you combine food. It depends on how you hydrate. Since nobody is perfect, it depends on how often or the degree of "cheating". It depends on sugar, salt and oil intake and what types. But I would suggest, if you really want to detoxify and have a strong immune system, go on a raw food, primarily fruit diet, with no additives, including any sugars or seasonings. You can combine this diet with certain herbs/teas although I would not take supplements. You can do occasional fasting, either dry or water only for 1 or two days (I would not do a dry fast more than 1 day). You don't have to do this diet all of the time. Just do it when needed. Right now, because of covid, it is needed.

By detoxifying, you will support the lymph to start working properly and that will support the immune system to strengthen the cellular level battle that helps to keep the virus from penetrating the cell wall and incubating there.
The problem for many folks is that the cells do not recognize the virus as invasive because the body is already dealing with many other toxins and cannot distinguish it. So it lets the virus in. A more detoxified body won't have that issue.

That is my understanding anyway, but then again, I'm down in the rabbit hole, so what do I know. LOL--the thing is, lots of top notch scientists and health professionals are down there with me. So, good luck fighting that battle.

---

Debating or discussing diets is so much healthier than discussing Trump's lies. Thank you.

Question: when you say that the food we eat toxifies us, what foods are you referring to?

So, I haven't heard the "primarily fruits" as much as I've heard "primarily vegetables, secondarily fruit". I've cut meat and dairy products, and eggs for 5 years. Rarely I'll have fish if the menu is no good or just decide to treat myself. Essenstyn, Ornish, China Study. And I like Fuhrman's ANDI scores as a quick reference reminder. Try to score as high as possible each meal. It jars you into "god, that's like poison - why would I eat that?"

ANDI stands for "Aggregate Nutrient Density Index." An ANDI score shows the nutrient density of a food on a scale from 1 to 1000 based on nutrient content. A value of 1000 being the most nutritious per calorie, and 1 being the least.






PS: I agree with you on HYDRATION!

oskidunker said:

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The more people that don't want the vaccine, the quicker the rest of us can get it. Ticket Master-and most airlines have said you have to have proof of vaccine to enter once everyone can get it. Gyms and some restaurants will likely follow.

---

I'm sure people will be getting fake ID cards.
Unless Govt gets involved in this, and I doubt they will - very contentious matter, unfortunately - 40% of the nation is pro trump and trump has brainwashed them.

bearister said:

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"Eat right. Exercise daily. Die anyway."
-Uncredited (but I have my suspicions)

---

Laugh if you will.
But there's ABSOLUTE TRUTH to the posit that eating right and exercising leads to a longer life, and a higher quality of life along the way.
Sure, there are always outliers, and you can hang your hat on that if you like,

(I realize, you are just making a joke. But it's a struggle for ALL of us to do our best each day. Habit and lethargy otherwise take over.)

Anarchistbear said:

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I wonder if all those native Americans wiped out by imported European pathogens had dietary problems.

---

Perhaps unknowingly, you're getting close to the problem...

Almost exactly 400 years ago last Thursday, the Native Americans and the Pilgrims came together for the first Thanksgiving and started setting up for dinner on those giant picnic benches they had. What do Squanto & Co see across the table? Cheez-Its, nachos, Big Macs, Twinkies, etc... all washed down by Pepsi and Mountain Dew. And of course, they initially found the taste quite compelling! "What's left for breakfast tomorrow?" they ask. "Fruity Pebbles and Krispy Kremes... with bacon!"

Their systems just weren't used to this: They never stood a chance.

concordtom said:

---

bearister said:

---

"Eat right. Exercise daily. Die anyway."
-Uncredited (but I have my suspicions)

---

Laugh if you will.
But there's ABSOLUTE TRUTH to the posit that eating right and exercising leads to a longer life, and a higher quality of life along the way.
Sure, there are always outliers, and you can hang your hat on that if you like,

(I realize, you are just making a joke. But it's a struggle for ALL of us to do our best each day. Habit and lethargy otherwise take over.)

---

There is absolute truth to that. But you can't prevent polio, measles mumps, whooping cough, or Covid by eating right and getting exercise. As Sycasey said how about you do those things and get the vaccine.

Anarchistbear said:

---

I wonder if all those native Americans wiped out by imported European pathogens had dietary problems.

---

Exactly

sycasey said:

---

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.

---

Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.

concordtom said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

concordtom said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

concordtom said:

---

You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?

---

I don't believe in vaccinating a protein. I don't know about the others but I have no wholesale bias against vaccines and I have taken some. There are others I have not taken without negative consequences. The flu shot I have taken and not taken with similar results either way.

The trouble with many of these debates is that it relies on the beliefs each of us holds as to which science is more "scientific" and which authorities are trustworthy. One persons sacred cow is another persons personal betrayer. There is no standard that is honorable and agreed upon when it comes to truth, science or knowledge. So I don't rely and outsiders so much as I rely on direct personal experience.

I can say quite honestly that I have repeatedly created and eliminated disease like symptoms in my body just by altering my diet one way and then back again.

Full disclosure. I am a food addict. I indulge outside of my preferred diet on a semi-regular basis. The impact is so consistent that it is predictable. I now which symptoms I am going to have before I have them based on what I have eaten.

The food, meat, dairy, coffee, wheat, sugar and additive industries are so powerful that they have infiltrated the health industry quite significantly. So, yes I do take vaccines on occasion and no I don't trust the medical basis for much of the disease model promoted by the AMA, the FDA and the biomedical industry.

One piece of evidence for this corruption is that certain health practices, like nutritional therapies, are much more widely and successfully practiced at a fraction of the cost in other countries. Meanwhile the status of Americans in the world health picture has steadily plummeted while folks pay more. I wonder why? The answer is not an accident. The answer is about profit.

---

So, what is your preferred diet for healthy living? Vegan?

---

vegan isn't necessarily any better. It depends on the type. It depends on how you combine food. It depends on how you hydrate. Since nobody is perfect, it depends on how often or the degree of "cheating". It depends on sugar, salt and oil intake and what types. But I would suggest, if you really want to detoxify and have a strong immune system, go on a raw food, primarily fruit diet, with no additives, including any sugars or seasonings. You can combine this diet with certain herbs/teas although I would not take supplements. You can do occasional fasting, either dry or water only for 1 or two days (I would not do a dry fast more than 1 day). You don't have to do this diet all of the time. Just do it when needed. Right now, because of covid, it is needed.

By detoxifying, you will support the lymph to start working properly and that will support the immune system to strengthen the cellular level battle that helps to keep the virus from penetrating the cell wall and incubating there.
The problem for many folks is that the cells do not recognize the virus as invasive because the body is already dealing with many other toxins and cannot distinguish it. So it lets the virus in. A more detoxified body won't have that issue.

That is my understanding anyway, but then again, I'm down in the rabbit hole, so what do I know. LOL--the thing is, lots of top notch scientists and health professionals are down there with me. So, good luck fighting that battle.

---

Debating or discussing diets is so much healthier than discussing Trump's lies. Thank you.

Question: when you say that the food we eat toxifies us, what foods are you referring to?

So, I haven't heard the "primarily fruits" as much as I've heard "primarily vegetables, secondarily fruit". I've cut meat and dairy products, and eggs for 5 years. Rarely I'll have fish if the menu is no good or just decide to treat myself. Essenstyn, Ornish, China Study. And I like Fuhrman's ANDI scores as a quick reference reminder. Try to score as high as possible each meal. It jars you into "god, that's like poison - why would I eat that?"

ANDI stands for "Aggregate Nutrient Density Index." An ANDI score shows the nutrient density of a food on a scale from 1 to 1000 based on nutrient content. A value of 1000 being the most nutritious per calorie, and 1 being the least.






PS: I agree with you on HYDRATION!

---

You are working off the same knowledge tree as I am! Try reading Dr. Robert Morse's book "The Miracle Detox Sourcebook". It's all about alkalizing with fruit. Essentially Melons and Berries are the most alkaline but grapes are good too.

OaktownBear said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

I wonder if all those native Americans wiped out by imported European pathogens had dietary problems.

---

Exactly

---

Actually they did have dietary problems.
Many peoples living tribally without benefit of agriculture and without availability of fresh produce in the winter had to rely on hunting. Meat acidifies the body to a great extent and introduces microbes that invite disease. The reason why there were not so many major pandemics back then is that migration and population was limited.

These days, we have the capability of controlling our diet, which is a great luxury compared to our long history. We should take advantage of it.

I have a great respect for the native Americans but diet is not one of them. And many today are suffering from diabetes.

It is under-reported that early Europeans in the America's prior to the pilgrims were pretty brutal, enslaving the natives to help them acquire gold. Columbus' motivation for coming to America was gold. He was in terrible debt and the queen sponsored his trip for the purposes of getting gold.

It's possible that the rape, torture and enslavement of the people's weakened them genetically and physically and made them more susceptible to disease.

In any case, there is no evidence that a peaceful co-existence between Europeans and Natives in America with both eating a plant based diet would have resulted in the Natives being wiped out by disease.

So I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

heartofthebear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.

---

Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.

---

Except if I fail to eat right, my cost benefit analysis doesn't lead to infants getting measles.

Sorry but have a care about your fellow man and get the vaccine.

OaktownBear said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.

---

Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.

---

Except if I fail to eat right, my cost benefit analysis doesn't lead to infants getting measles.

Sorry but have a care about your fellow man and get the vaccine.

---

Got it.
I don't assess risks the same way.
And I don't think I care about my fellow man any less than you do, although I'm sure you have formed that opinion of me.

heartofthebear said:

---

You are working off the same knowledge tree as I am! Try reading Dr. Robert Morse's book "The Miracle Detox Sourcebook". It's all about alkalizing with fruit. Essentially Melons and Berries are the most alkaline but grapes are good too.

---

From the film The Road to Wellville:

"Oh, no, no, I can't eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt."
-William Lightbody

"Oh, it's not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody."
-Dr. John Harvey Kellogg

"My own stools, Sir, are gigantic and have no more odor than a hot biscuit."
-Dr. John Harvey Kellogg


"The enemas take some getting used to, but, in time, you'll learn to look forward to them like an old friend with a cold nose."
- Endymion Hart-Jones