The Giants got the best years out of Pablo while paying pre-free-agency bargain salary. That's the smart way to go.
But the Giants need to keep the farm system stocked for it to work.

86Oski;842420068 said:

---

---

Man the Giants should cut the grass during the off season.

KoreAmBear;842420070 said:

---

Man the Giants should cut the grass during the off season.

---

Robert Redford was much more attractive.

I don't see Vogelsong on the cover.

dimitrig;842420626 said:

---

I don't see Vogelsong on the cover.

---

Or Kershaw...

Can a more knowledgeable Dodgers fan explain to me how I should feel about all of the recent moves? Thank you.

LINK: NYT - Dodgers, in Flurry of Activity, Move to Revamp Their Infield

New middle infield, got rid of Kemp to un-jam the outfield, picked up a decent mid-range starter. Not done yet. Dodgers might be going after Cole Hamels.

I like the ability to throw money at the situation, quickly. Still have to make the right decisions. Middle infield looks like an upgrade. They got value from Kemp and if they sign Hamels, I'll be happy.

beelzebear;842422294 said:

---

LINK: NYT - Dodgers, in Flurry of Activity, Move to Revamp Their Infield

New middle infield, got rid of Kemp to un-jam the outfield, picked up a decent mid-range starter. Not done yet. Dodgers might be going after Cole Hamels.

I like the ability to throw money at the situation, quickly. Still have to make the right decisions. Middle infield looks like an upgrade. They got value from Kemp and if they sign Hamels, I'll be happy.

---

Middle infield is surely an upgrade but the biggest upgrade of all is at catcher. Grandal represents a sizable upgrade over Ellis both offensively and defensively. AJ Ellis, who I like very much as a clubhouse presence and as a interviewee, was poor at throwing runners out and framing pitches as the data shows. Plus, he hit .197. Grandal is above average defensively and is likely to hit .240-.250 with 10-15 home runs. That's a big upgrade for sure. I like the moves a lot. The team is MUCH better defensively now and that tends to be under-rated. Still a little concerned about the pen but hopefully there are more moves to be made

TheSouseFamily;842422299 said:

---

Middle infield is surely an upgrade but the biggest upgrade of all is at catcher. Grandal represents a sizable upgrade over Ellis both offensively and defensively. AJ Ellis, who I like very much as a clubhouse presence and as a interviewee, was poor at throwing runners out and framing pitches as the data shows. Plus, he hit .197. Grandal is above average defensively and is likely to hit .240-.250 with 10-15 home runs. That's a big upgrade for sure. I like the moves a lot. The team is MUCH better defensively now and that tends to be under-rated. Still a little concerned about the pen but hopefully there are more moves to be made

---

I've heard some Padres fans talking trash about Grandal saying he's been popped for PEDs and is a clubhouse cancer.

YuSeeBerkeley;842422304 said:

---

I've heard some Padres fans talking trash about Grandal saying he's been popped for PEDs and is a clubhouse cancer.

---

Well Hanley came to LA with baggage and while he wasn't perfect, he mostly handled himself very professionally. So reputations can be redeemed.

You guys think the middle infield is an upgrade????

Shortstop was Hanley Ramirez in His Prime. Now its Jimmy Rollins 7 years after his prime who really is not that good anymore.
2nd Base you had Dee Gordon who is coming off his best year and get Howie Kendrick who would have been a great pick up 5 years ago.

Not to mention they traded Gordon for a great pitching prospect But then traded that prospect for Kendrick. So really You trade a .300 hitter who led the league in steals for .290 hitter who is an average base runner.

Then losing Kemp and gaining Grandal isn't exactly an upgrade. Its not like Grandal is a top tier catcher.

Brandon McCarthy went 10-15 last year with a 4.05 ERA.

I think the Dodgers have made some pretty bad moves that are gonna make them worse next year. Still have a good pitching staff but Their offense took a hit for sure.

tc3590;842422413 said:

---

You guys think the middle infield is an upgrade????

Shortstop was Hanley Ramirez in His Prime. Now its Jimmy Rollins 7 years after his prime who really is not that good anymore.
2nd Base you had Dee Gordon who is coming off his best year and get Howie Kendrick who would have been a great pick up 5 years ago.

Not to mention they traded Gordon for a great pitching prospect But then traded that prospect for Kendrick. So really You trade a .300 hitter who led the league in steals for .290 hitter who is an average base runner.

Then losing Kemp and gaining Grandal isn't exactly an upgrade. Its not like Grandal is a top tier catcher.

Brandon McCarthy went 10-15 last year with a 4.05 ERA.

I think the Dodgers have made some pretty bad moves that are gonna make them worse next year. Still have a good pitching staff but Their offense took a hit for sure.

---

Dee is not a .300 hitter, and for a leadoff hitter has quite a bad OBP, which is the crack of the Money Ball kids. No actually WAR is and so some of it is Kemp's declining value in the OF, selling high on both Kemp and Dee (and while he was better at 2B than SS he is still learning the position and not there yet), and making some salary room for Hamels or Shields. Rollins is a stop gap for Corey Seager. Perhaps Kendrick is for Alex Guerrero. Dodgers also eventually want to start Joc Pedersen in the OF. Yasmani Grandal also has great upside at the C position. I'm not saying I am completely sold on all this, but the moves are defensible.

Hanley Ramirez is going to Boston to cover Big Papi's (David Ortiz) back, his long time buddy, and get him back on track. He's going to play left field because he's just not that good of SS and he's 30. Rollins is bring brought until Corey Seager (Dodger's top prospect) is ready, and then likely help mentor him.

The Dodgers have gotten their famous farm system back and along with all that $$$ to toss around, it's going to be something. I hope the new GM (Cal Phd Farhan Zaidi, formerly Billy Beane's guy) leverages those two like no other. He's one smart motherf*cker. It's gonna be fun to watch.

it seems like the all the Dodgers' moves were about leveraging assets at the height of their value. I for one am kinda bummed that Gordon and Kemp are gone... but it remains to be seen whether or not this years' production was an anomaly or a predictor of future production. The Dodgers hedged. We'll see how it turns out.

rathokan;842422569 said:

---

it seems like the all the Dodgers' moves were about leveraging assets at the height of their value. I for one am kinda bummed that Gordon and Kemp are gone... but it remains to be seen whether or not this years' production was an anomaly or a predictor of future production. The Dodgers hedged. We'll see how it turns out.

---

The reason why the Dodgers lost in the NLDS was the bullpen. That's like the #1 thing that needs to be addressed, and it was not addressed. I guess the Money Ball kids think that middle relievers, like closers, are fungible. They'll pick one off the scrap heap by March.

beelzebear;842422438 said:

---

He's going to play left field because he's just not that good of SS and he's 30. .

---

Thats a good reason to move someone to a position they have never played before. :p

KoreAmBear;842422578 said:

---

The reason why the Dodgers lost in the NLDS was the bullpen. That's like the #1 thing that needs to be addressed, and it was not addressed. I guess the Money Ball kids think that middle relievers, like closers, are fungible. They'll pick one off the scrap heap by March.

---

the bullpen definitely needs to be addressed. Kershaw got up to ~200 innings even after missing more than a month, and they had no confidence to bring in anybody besides Jansen.

tc3590;842422413 said:

---

you guys think the middle infield is an upgrade????

Shortstop was hanley ramirez in his prime. Now its jimmy rollins 7 years after his prime who really is not that good anymore.
2nd base you had dee gordon who is coming off his best year and get howie kendrick who would have been a great pick up 5 years ago.

Not to mention they traded gordon for a great pitching prospect but then traded that prospect for kendrick. So really you trade a .300 hitter who led the league in steals for .290 hitter who is an average base runner.

Then losing kemp and gaining grandal isn't exactly an upgrade. Its not like grandal is a top tier catcher.

Brandon mccarthy went 10-15 last year with a 4.05 era.

I think the dodgers have made some pretty bad moves that are gonna make them worse next year. Still have a good pitching staff but their offense took a hit for sure.

---

war!

tc3590;842422413 said:

---

I think the Dodgers have made some pretty bad moves that are gonna make them worse next year. Still have a good pitching staff but Their offense took a hit for sure.

---

I'm a huge Giants fan, and I think the Dodgers improved their team. I feared Hanley Ramirez's bat, but he was a terrible defender. I always knew he would give up some of the runs he created, and you can pitch around him. Rollins and Kendrick bring much better gloves. They don't hit HRs but they are quality hitters who are pests on the basepaths, and that'll play up in the postseason.

Grandal is nothing special, but he's a big upgrade over AJ Ellis. The Dodgers really missed out on Russell Martin. The big advantage the Giants have in a short postseason series is Buster Posey at C every game. He plays C about 65-70% of the regular season games. That extra bat in the lineup and his plus-plus framing/blocking skills are huge factors in why... ya know, 3 in 5 years. The Cardinals have this postseason benefit too with Yadier Molina. I'd be more afraid of the Dodgers if they traded for a Matt Wieters or Salvador Perez.

youngbear1992;842422775 said:

---

i'm a huge giants fan, and i think the dodgers improved their team. I feared hanley ramirez's bat, but he was a terrible defender. I always knew he would give up some of the runs he created, and you can pitch around him. Rollins and kendrick bring much better gloves. They don't hit hrs but they are quality hitters who are pests on the basepaths, and that'll play up in the postseason.

Grandal is nothing special, but he's a big upgrade over aj ellis. The dodgers really missed out on russell martin. The big advantage the giants have in a short postseason series is buster posey at c every game. He plays c about 65-70% of the regular season games. That extra bat in the lineup and his plus-plus framing/blocking skills are huge factors in why... Ya know, 3 in 5 years. The cardinals have this postseason benefit too with yadier molina. I'd be more afraid of the dodgers if they traded for a matt wieters or salvador perez.

---

war!

rathokan;842422729 said:

---

the bullpen definitely needs to be addressed. Kershaw got up to ~200 innings even after missing more than a month, and they had no confidence to bring in anybody besides Jansen.

---

Yup I want Andrew Miller more than Cole Hamels. However, I suspect the Money Ball kids think that decent relievers can be found on the cheap. Plus when did this framing of pitches become quantified for catchers? I this sabermaticians purposefully come up with a new category during the winter meetings to mess with us.

Someone mentioned that LA needs relief pitchers.
It reminded me of something I've learned following the Giants and this year is no different.
The Giants often fail at this time of the year while other teams (i.e. the Dodgers) start bulking up.

After the hoopla is over and all the pundits start writing in big spenders like the Nationals, the Angels, the Dodgers and the Cardinals because of their roster, and writing off teams like the Giants and A's,
the Giants (Brian Sabien) quietly pick up guys for pennies on the dollar. Then he invites guys to spring training. Many of these guys are little known relievers or guys coming back from injury. Or they are minor leaguers released by other teams. You would be amazed at how many of these guys ended up playing key rolls in our world series years. (Blanco, Ishikawo & Petit).

The Giants spend a lot more $$ than the A's but both teams know how to buy low. The A's don't spend as much but they get players through trades that cost them a huge amount in talent. Either way, both teams have the courage to let go of the past and take a chance on unproven players. And both teams have generally been more successful than their big spending counterparts as a result.

heartofthebear;842422831 said:

---

Someone mentioned that LA needs relief pitchers.
It reminded me of something I've learned following the Giants and this year is no different.
The Giants often fail at this time of the year while other teams (i.e. the Dodgers) start bulking up.

After the hoopla is over and all the pundits start writing in big spenders like the Nationals, the Angels, the Dodgers and the Cardinals because of their roster, and writing off teams like the Giants and A's,
the Giants (Brian Sabien) quietly pick up guys for pennies on the dollar. Then he invites guys to spring training. Many of these guys are little known relievers or guys coming back from injury. Or they are minor leaguers released by other teams. You would be amazed at how many of these guys ended up playing key rolls in our world series years. (Blanco, Ishikawo & Petit).

The Giants spend a lot more $$ than the A's but both teams know how to buy low. The A's don't spend as much but they get players through trades that cost them a huge amount in talent. Either way, both teams have the courage to let go of the past and take a chance on unproven players. And both teams have generally been more successful than their big spending counterparts as a result.

---

You can't group the A's with the Giants. The A's haven't won the World Series since 1989, just one year later than the Dodgers' last World Series. And since their last World Series appearance in 1990, the A's have won only one postseason series only to be swept out of the ALCS in 2006.

YuSeeBerkeley;842422858 said:

---

You can't group the A's with the Giants. The A's haven't won the World Series since 1989, just one year later than the Dodgers' last World Series. And since their last World Series appearance in 1990, the A's have won only one postseason series only to be swept out of the ALCS in 2006.

---

If it makes you feel any better.
I'm primarily a Giants fan.
The A's have been successful, just not as much in the post-season.
My point was that both have been successful and both have been able to do so with under-rated players with different rosters.
So yes you can group them together in that sense.

KoreAmBear;842422827 said:

---

when did this framing of pitches become quantified for catchers? I this sabermaticians purposefully come up with a new category during the winter meetings to mess with us.

---

KoreAmBear, quantifying catcher defense is still very much a work in progress among saberists. Take a look at these Fangraphs articles: 2014 Catcher Rankings and Catcher Defense

"But of course, our system isn’t all-encompassing or perfect, and not just because the projections are arguable and the playing time is arguable too. There are just things about catching that aren’t included, one invisible one being game-calling, and one visible one being pitch-receiving or pitch-framing. You’ve seen the pitch-framing research, and you’ve seen some of the numbers it suggests. Including those numbers would shake up these rankings. The market doesn’t seem to believe too heavily in the numbers, and conversations I’ve had suggest people in the game think the numbers are too extreme, but there’s little question there’s some kind of skill there, and so catchers should receive at least partial credit. "

PutYourNameOnIt;842422790 said:

---

war!

---

Shall we play best 3 out of 5? :-)

I guess Yasiel hasn't been reading this thread. Shame on him! http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-dodgers-puig-20150131-story.html

In other news, all hail the genius that is Dodger Marketing! http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/dodgersnow/la-sp-dn-dodgers-slogan-20150130-story.html

That article about Puig made my day. How can you Dodgers fans not love a guy like this? I guess no one has told him that they do pay him to get in the gym.

Quote:

---

This might be the only part of baseball that doesn't come easily to Puig, who admitted, "I don't like working out. It's like they have to pay me to get in the gym."

---

86Oski;842447629 said:

---

I guess Yasiel hasn't been reading this thread. Shame on him! http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-dodgers-puig-20150131-story.html

In other news, all hail the genius that is Dodger Marketing! http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/dodgersnow/la-sp-dn-dodgers-slogan-20150130-story.html

---

I love how Puig assumes that once you beat the Giants for the division, you won't have to see them again.

the great thing about the giants, is that even if they get the WC, they probably have the greatest big game pitcher in baseball. so while you prefer to win the division, getting the WC is still extremely do-able.

Unit2Sucks;842447740 said:

---

That article about Puig made my day. How can you Dodgers fans not love a guy like this? I guess no one has told him that they do pay him to get in the gym.

---

Yeah, I would also imagine some Dodger fans aren't crazy about the last paragraph:

Quote:

---

"I'd like to play one position this year," he said. "I have a very big room in my house and I don't have a Gold Glove. I have nothing. I need a Gold Glove."

---

That doesn't exactly sound like a guy committed to do whatever it takes to help the team, individual honors be damned. But, to be fair, he did say the right things elsewhere in the article about playing whatever role the team asks of him.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

86Oski;842447756 said:

---

Yeah, I would also imagine some Dodger fans aren't crazy about the last paragraph:



That doesn't exactly sound like a guy committed to do whatever it takes to help the team, individual honors be damned. But, to be fair, he did say the right things elsewhere in the article about playing whatever role the team asks of him.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

---

Much like high school recruit Tweets, I am past trying to figure out what Yasiel is trying to do. If he can just stop sucking at the plate like he did in August and September (and in the NLDS), I will be happy.

KoreAmBear;842447758 said:

---

Much like high school recruit Tweets, I am past trying to figure out what Yasiel is trying to do. If he can just stop sucking at the plate like he did in August and September (and in the NLDS), I will be happy.

---

Puig isn't the problem as much as Kershaw and why he seems to wet the bed in the playoffs. If he can just pitch close to his average in the playoffs the Doyyers would do much better. Instead, he turns into Joe Blanton.

And since moving from Brooklyn, still not one everyday player in a Dodger uniform has made the Hall.

dimitrig;842448236 said:

---

Puig isn't the problem as much as Kershaw and why he seems to wet the bed in the playoffs. If he can just pitch close to his average in the playoffs the Doyyers would do much better. Instead, he turns into Joe Blanton.

---

Well he turns into Joe Blanton in the 7th inning. He's too amped up. But if the Dodgers had any kind of bully, Donny would have diffused all that and brought someone in. Instead, Donny had to wait until guys got into the 8th, hope and pray JP Howell, Wilson or League didn't throw more gas into the fire, then hold on for dear life until Kenley could close it out. This was all Ned Colletti. I hope Friedman knows what he's doing, as so far it appears he is much smarter than Ned. We'll see though.