OT - Selling My Equities

105,249 Views | 675 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by rkt88edmo
dajo9
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Cal89;842781164 said:

Just found this thread to share that I bought SPY puts earlier today. Seeing the VIX (S&P 500 Volatility Index) dip in the 11's, I decided to take-on this position. As one can see in this 5 year chart, my rationale. This approach has actually worked well for me over the years. Again, even if the market doesn't tank, it's "insurance", allowing me to stay fairly long....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6051[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6051[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6051[/ATTACH]


When do those puts expire?
Cal89
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dajo9;842781291 said:

When do those puts expire?


June 2017. So, some time involved...
OdontoBear66
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dajo9;842778965 said:

Have you ever noticed that high tax states tend to be wealthier. Maybe there is something productive about schools and roads.


Uhh, schools and roads were one helluva lot better with the first Gov Brown than they are now with higher taxes. Don't get your assumption. California has some of the worst of both in the nation right now.
dajo9
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OdontoBear66;842781567 said:

Uhh, schools and roads were one helluva lot better with the first Gov Brown than they are now with higher taxes. Don't get your assumption. California has some of the worst of both in the nation right now.


Even if you disagree with my second sentence (and since you do, I encourage you to send the children in your family to public schools in Alabama), my first sentence still stands.
burritos
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There is already a ton of cash sitting on the sidelines. Where is it going to go to chase returns? If not equities, RE, international, emerging, energy, or bonds then where? Please don't say precious metals.

Fellow Cal Bear Alum:
burritos
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burritos;842781693 said:

There is already a ton of cash sitting on the sidelines. Where is it going to go to chase returns? If not equities, RE, international, emerging, energy, or bonds then where? Please don't say precious metals.

Fellow Cal Bear Alum:



I've heard that there is a huge arbitrage opportunity in investing in life settlement investments(investing in life insurance policies). They crank out 10%+ year after year independent of market performance. After all people die regardless of market conditions. But there's no fungible product to purchase(like a mutual fund or ETF).
Cal89
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I've often found Schiff's perspectives quite thought-provoking. His views on taxation, quite different, that we should be collecting on the consumption side, not penalizing production. The above quote was in advance to our financial crisis about 9 nine years ago...

He's quite active on Twitter, for those interested in his thoughts. Between him and Doug Kass, that generally satisfies my daily bearish quota...
burritos
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Cal89;842781720 said:

I've often found Schiff's perspectives quite thought-provoking. His views on taxation, quite different, that we should be collecting on the consumption side, not penalizing production. The above quote was in advance to our financial crisis about 9 nine years ago...

He's quite active on Twitter, for those interested in his thoughts. Between him and Doug Kass, that generally satisfies my daily bearish quota...


I problem with his gold perspective is that he thinks gold is going to go to 10,000 or 100,000 an oz and then he'll be a rich guy. I think if something like that occurs, then we'll be having a lot bigger problems than the misvaluations of fungible paper assets. We'll be in a Venezuela like situation where there are not enough goods and a breakdown in civil order will be happening. In that case, you should just stock up on guns, butter, and rain barrels, not gold.
82gradDLSdad
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burritos;842781693 said:

There is already a ton of cash sitting on the sidelines. Where is it going to go to chase returns? If not equities, RE, international, emerging, energy, or bonds then where? Please don't say precious metals.

Fellow Cal Bear Alum:



Peter Schiff always predicts a catastrophe. Someday he will be right and if he is still alive they'll have him back on CNBC
dajo9
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I didn't know Peter Schiff was a Cal alum. That is disappointing. The guy sells gold and is constantly predicting inflation and calamity. The fact he was right in 2008 is like the proverbial stopped watch. In 2009 he was back to being wrong again, predicting hyperinflation.
cedarbear
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OK, I know more about this than I do about football and basketball...

Trying to time the market, especially in something like a 401K where your time horizon is decades long, is a fool's errand. Markets can go up for much longer than what might appear rational to you. If the market goes up 20% from here and you've switched to cash, what are you going to do? Stick to your guns, you say? What if it goes up another 20% once again after that? At some point, you'll probably admit defeat and jump back in....which might be exactly when the market tanks.

Say you do get it right and the market falls right after you get out. On the downside, people tend to get more bearish at precisely the wrong moment: when there's tons of bad news and stocks have gotten killed. At times like that, staying in cash seems like such a sensible thing to do. But market rebounds are inevitably sudden, sharp--and usually happen when you're still on the sidelines, trying to be sensible by holding cash because the news is so bad.

Even if you get lucky in one cycle, I guarantee you're not going to be able to get it right every time. You'll end up leaving a lot of money on the table because you missed out on market rallies that happened when you thought stocks were too expensive to own. Save yourself the trading commissions--and the stress.

Warren Buffett has it exactly right: buy stock in excellent companies that don't have a ton of debt, do generate a lot of cash, are in businesses where they have a sustainable competitive advantage, and whose stocks are not trading at stupid valuations. And then hold them for many years. If that's too much trouble, buy an S&P 500 index fund and hold it forever. In aggregate, the US economy and US companies will be innovative and adaptable; betting on them over the long, long term is the right thing to do. You can diversify by doing the same thing with a Russell 2000 index fund, since small-caps will likely outperform large-caps over the long-term.
Cal89
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burritos;842781722 said:

I problem with his gold perspective is that he thinks gold is going to go to 10,000 or 100,000 an oz and then he'll be a rich guy. I think if something like that occurs, then we'll be having a lot bigger problems then just the fungible assets we'll be having. We'll be in a Venezuela like situation where there are not enough goods and a breakdown in civil order will be happening. In that case, you should just stock up on guns, butter, and rain barrels.


I take his and Kass's views for what they are... I'm no gold bug, that's for sure. I do have about a 5% position in a large retirement account though, strategically buying at what I have felt to be good price points.

Rain barrels, underground and under the house water storage, I have. Solar and propane back-up power... Guns and ammo, you bet. Should things ever go sideways to where chaos reigns, and I'm not one consumed with such dark thoughts, I have chosen to be prepared in all respects. My 10 day wait for a Mossberg 590A1 starts tonight actually when I visit my FFL. The arsenal grows... Setting-up a 50 watt, 12 volt dual band Ham transmitter in my home office. An interesting and fun hobby that I plan to share with the little ones, but also something that can be quite helpful in times of need and dire situations. I'll be making a couple concrete + perlite "rocket stoves" this spring in time for barbecue season. I'm going to incorporate them into the backyard kitchen, but also darn nice to have when normal means to cook are no longer available...
dajo9
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cedarbear;842781756 said:

OK, I know more about this than I do about football and basketball...

Trying to time the market, especially in something like a 401K where your time horizon is decades long, is a fool's errand. Markets can go up for much longer than what might appear rational to you. If the market goes up 20% from here and you've switched to cash, what are you going to do? Stick to your guns, you say? What if it goes up another 20% once again after that? At some point, you'll probably admit defeat and jump back in....which might be exactly when the market tanks.

Say you do get it right and the market falls right after you get out. On the downside, people tend to get more bearish at precisely the wrong moment: when there's tons of bad news, stocks have gotten killed, and staying in cash seems like such a sensible thing to do. But market rebounds are inevitably sudden, sharp--and probably before you're smart enough to know when to jump back in amidst all the horrible news out there.

Even if you get lucky in one cycle, I guarantee you're not going to be able to get it right every time. You'll end up leaving a lot of money on the table because you missed out on market rallies that happened when you thought stocks were too expensive to own. Save yourself the trading commissions--and the stress.

Warren Buffett has it exactly right: buy stock in excellent companies that don't have a ton of debt, do generate a lot of cash, are in businesses where they have a sustainable competitive advantage, and whose stocks are not trading at stupid valuations. And then hold them for many years. If that's too much trouble, buy an S&P 500 index fund and hold it forever. In aggregate, the US economy and US companies will be innovative and adaptable; betting on them over the long, long term is the right thing to do. You can diversify by doing the same thing with a Russell 2000 index fund, since small-caps will likely outperform large-caps over the long-term.


I completely agree with this and would recommend this advice to anyone. It's what I do over 90% of the time. But I'm making my first market call since 2009 when I decided to buy at a large discount (after selling in 2007). I have only myself to blame.
Unit2Sucks
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Party at Cal89's bomb shelter the day the world ends. I am picturing this:

burritos
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dajo9;842781764 said:

I completely agree with this and would recommend this advice to anyone. It's what I do over 90% of the time. But I'm making my first market call since 2009 when I decided to buy at a large discount (after selling in 2007). I have only myself to blame.


I would consider doing this do, except then I'd be subconsciously if not overtly rooting for the market to tank. Since I have skin in the game, then I'd be punished for wanting such a thing(which I kind of do want to happen to confirm my strongly held beliefs about what Trumpland is going to bring). But I believe we're in this together. So I'll endure the lumps in a well diversified manner if that's what happens.
OdontoBear66
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dajo9;842781645 said:

Even if you disagree with my second sentence (and since you do, I encourage you to send the children in your family to public schools in Alabama), my first sentence still stands.


So its California or Alabama. Quite a contrast. My grandchildren are in fine institutions right now but not in California, nor Alabama. Just saying those high taxes over the last sixty years have gone less and less to the quality of higher education and roads, and more and more to less tangible assets, which also have not improved since Great Society days. Basically those high taxes of which you speak are being spent on things giving less and less return relatively speaking over time.
Cal89
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For many people who don't want to make the time, have the inclination or aptitude - super sound advice above.

I am never fully in the market and certainly never fully out. I use various macro indicators that allow me a certain level of confidence in deciding to what degree I should be in or out of the market. One might call that timing I suppose....

I really like looking at volume, in relation to price, for the whole market. Tells the conviction of moves... PVT, which is volume x price delta %, attempts to do so. I look at the PVT on the NYSE and NASDAQ. Something else called the Force Index, which is volume x price delta, again for the Naz and NYSE. I also monitor volume in the options market, like on the SPY (S&P 500) and QQQ (Naz). i was taught at a young age to always keep my eye on volume, and I continue to do so...

Other cool macro tools look at market breadth, like the McClellan Oscillator (NYSE and NASDAQ), which is basically the advance / decline line. Market can be up due to a small number of large issues, while many more had a down day. Similarly, charting the number of new highs vs new lows attempts the same... The number or percent of stocks above various moving averages, such as 20, 50 100 and 200. The trending of such as revealed on charts can be quite telling...

The put / call ratio for the SPY and QQQ in interesting to monitor for me. I also look at charts showing the spread ratio of various ETF pairs. The aforementioned VIX, volatility index. As seen in that chart above, it doesn't live in the 10 to 11 range all that long before shooting back up (stocks prices fall). I've always done well lightening my positions in this range, even playing the downside as I just did with those puts.

When I open one of my trading platforms, like 20 tabs open with all of the above and others I forget or didn't mention. It's a weekly check that I do, typically over the weekend, Sunday night usually. If just two or three indicate a change in direction might be coming, I take notice, and monitor things more carefully. If four, five or six are indicating the same, I really start to consider if I want to change any of my positions, become more or less net long. If more indicators "flash", then a response becomes more compelling for me. No guarantees of course, but having looked back historically at charts, back-testing even, there is reason to put some credence in these measures.

Some friends who don't want to monitor so much, I have them looking at this for the SPY, the QQQ, and even the Russell 2k - basically the entire market. And, to watch the VIX.

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The bands surrounding price are Keltner Channels. I've grown to prefer them over Bollinger Bands, most of the time. Gives one a decent idea as to the expected swings or range over time, and can assist with entry and exit. Volume, with an average line, and RSI are below. Between RSI reflecting very overbought a week or so back, with some minimal downward movement since, then the VIX dropping into the low 11s, rare territory, seems like a good time to get some downward protection in a lengthy bull run, holidays and New Year upon us...

The real fun is taking such ideas and backtesting them in a program. One can ask: From Jan 2013 to current, show me when (and at what price) I would have purchased stock/ETF123 when this specific criteria was met. Some will be great buys, others less so. Studying the later often reveals that the introduction of something else can somewhat limit those undesirable entries. Then backtest again to see... It's an iterative process and educational, IMO.

My wife caught me babbling about backtesting, earlier about rocket stoves, so time to call it quits. A slow day at work I guess...
dajo9
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OdontoBear66;842781839 said:

So its California or Alabama. Quite a contrast. My grandchildren are in fine institutions right now but not in California, nor Alabama. Just saying those high taxes over the last sixty years have gone less and less to the quality of higher education and roads, and more and more to less tangible assets, which also have not improved since Great Society days. Basically those high taxes of which you speak are being spent on things giving less and less return relatively speaking over time.


Still avoiding my main point, I see
OdontoBear66
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dajo9;842781857 said:

Still avoiding my main point, I see


Nowhere near avoiding anything. In a relative sense, under the first Gov. Brown the state built an unbelievable uni and a system of roads, dams (infrastructure if you will) that is one of the prime reasons Calif. exists with its population base as it does today. Since that time the expenditures on social issues/problems/concerns has undermined the maintenance of both. There is just not enough to do it all, in spite of what some think. So the tax base goes up, the quality of the schools and infrastructure goes down, and you dajo, live in a coastal paradise afforded by the intellectually and economically elite. The rest is a struggle for those on whose backs the state was built. But fill the potholes and convince yourself that Cal is still of the prestige of days gone by.
Wags
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OdontoBear66;842781932 said:

Nowhere near avoiding anything. In a relative sense, under the first Gov. Brown the state built an unbelievable uni and a system of roads, dams (infrastructure if you will) that is one of the prime reasons Calif. exists with its population base as it does today. Since that time the expenditures on social issues/problems/concerns has undermined the maintenance of both. There is just not enough to do it all, in spite of what some think. So the tax base goes up, the quality of the schools and infrastructure goes down, and you dajo, live in a coastal paradise afforded by the intellectually and economically elite. The rest is a struggle for those on whose backs the state was built. But fill the potholes and convince yourself that Cal is still of the prestige of days gone by.


+1

Case in point, Prop. 30 was suppose to sunset after 4 years
Governor Brown even said so.

Fast forward to Nov. 2016 and the Voters "renewed" this tax on upper brackets (as much as 30%) as well as an increased state sales tax......out till 2030 with a new numbered Proposition.

If I see another First Responder asking for more money in a TV commercial, I'm gonna throw a Beer glass at my TV screen!
dajo9
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OdontoBear66;842781932 said:

Nowhere near avoiding anything. In a relative sense, under the first Gov. Brown the state built an unbelievable uni and a system of roads, dams (infrastructure if you will) that is one of the prime reasons Calif. exists with its population base as it does today. Since that time the expenditures on social issues/problems/concerns has undermined the maintenance of both. There is just not enough to do it all, in spite of what some think. So the tax base goes up, the quality of the schools and infrastructure goes down, and you dajo, live in a coastal paradise afforded by the intellectually and economically elite. The rest is a struggle for those on whose backs the state was built. But fill the potholes and convince yourself that Cal is still of the prestige of days gone by.


I live in New Jersey. Like California, New Jersey is a high tax high wealth state. But you don't want to talk about that apparently.

Let's talk about your preferred subject. I grew up in San Bernardino (hardly the coastal elite). I attended California public schools from K through college. California public universities are the envy of the nation. Still. New Jersey K-12 schools are better than California. New Jersey has much higher property taxes than California. NJ schools are among the best in the nation. NJ property taxes are among the highest in the nation. We also have a substantial train network and numerous costly bridges. New Jersey has the 2nd highest incomes in the nation.
Wags
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burritos;842781693 said:

There is already a ton of cash sitting on the sidelines. Where is it going to go to chase returns? If not equities, RE, international, emerging, energy, or bonds then where? Please don't say precious metals.

Fellow Cal Bear Alum:



Peter Schiff.
A perma-bear clown.
Wags
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Just an FYI....

Corporate share buybacks have driven much of the gains in equities over the last several years, as outflows have occurred every week out of domestic equity funds for nearly 2 years straight, up until the Election.

The S&P could very well be ahead of itself for the reasons that the OP stated.
But a repatriation tax holiday would be uber Bullish for stock buybacks to continue.
burritos
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OdontoBear66;842781932 said:

Nowhere near avoiding anything. In a relative sense, under the first Gov. Brown the state built an unbelievable uni and a system of roads, dams (infrastructure if you will) that is one of the prime reasons Calif. exists with its population base as it does today. Since that time the expenditures on social issues/problems/concerns has undermined the maintenance of both. There is just not enough to do it all, in spite of what some think. So the tax base goes up, the quality of the schools and infrastructure goes down, and you dajo, live in a coastal paradise afforded by the intellectually and economically elite. The rest is a struggle for those on whose backs the state was built. But fill the potholes and convince yourself that Cal is still of the prestige of days gone by.

Maybe if the other leeching(mostly) Red states stopped taking their unfair share of the tax revenue from California, we could spend on the the things that are not getting the funding they once received?
OdontoBear66
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burritos;842781951 said:


Maybe if the other leeching(mostly) Red states stopped taking their unfair share of the tax revenue from California, we could spend on the the things that are not getting the funding they once received?


Thought that is exactly what you folks wanted. Take it from the rich, give it to the poor...Look at what is considered the coastal blue states----all in the 40s and high 30s...Nicely helpin' them poor folk in the middle. Now you are complaining?
Goobear
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OdontoBear66;842781957 said:

Thought that is exactly what you folks wanted. Take it from the rich, give it to the poor...Look at what is considered the coastal blue states----all in the 40s and high 30s...Nicely helpin' them poor folk in the middle. Now you are complaining?


OdontoBear touch, you made my day
OdontoBear66
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Well, Goobear, I thanks, but I am not all about "touches"...But I do enjoy consistency in thought and expression. So maybe, I need give my New Jersey friend an expression of moderation---read Ben Santer's letter to PEOTUS Trump written in the last 24 hours and published on CNBC (I am link challenged) about climate change. Compassionate, well reasoned, moderate, carefully worded, but to the point. Some of us back woods Republicans do have consideration for things like our environment, schools, infrastructure, contrary to what our well read opposites believe.

And rest assured, this is not trick. It is not from Faux News. It does not have an ironical twist at the end. Just a Christmas (love saying that word) present to all my lib friends. "Moderation in all things. Little but good", my words of advice from a long departed, loved grandfather.

BTW, do you love how much you are hearing "Merry Christmas" this year everywhere as opposed to years gone by. Not as an insult to anyone, but as an expression of freedom of expression.
dajo9
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Goobear;842781962 said:

OdontoBear touch, you made my day


The irony that Trump will give me a big tax break and that millions of his supporters in middle America will lose their insurance is not lost on me. Heads I win, tails I win.
dajo9
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OdontoBear66;842782001 said:

Well, Goobear, I thanks, but I am not all about "touches"...But I do enjoy consistency in thought and expression. So maybe, I need give my New Jersey friend an expression of moderation---read Ben Santer's letter to PEOTUS Trump written in the last 24 hours and published on CNBC (I am link challenged) about climate change. Compassionate, well reasoned, moderate, carefully worded, but to the point. Some of us back woods Republicans do have consideration for things like our environment, schools, infrastructure, contrary to what our well read opposites believe.

And rest assured, this is not trick. It is not from Faux News. It does not have an ironical twist at the end. Just a Christmas (love saying that word) present to all my lib friends. "Moderation in all things. Little but good", my words of advice from a long departed, loved grandfather.

BTW, do you love how much you are hearing "Merry Christmas" this year everywhere as opposed to years gone by. Not as an insult to anyone, but as an expression of freedom of expression.


This is actually a great mix of self destructive conservative thinking. The Santer letter to Trump is a plea to stay in the Paris Agreement. I am assuming by your support of this letter and your avowed interest in the environment that you think we should stay with the Paris Agreement. Yet you have voted against staying with the Paris Agreement and Trump has promised to exit the Paris Agreement.

And why have you voted against your own beliefs?

Because propaganda has been effectively utilized to make you think I hate hearing Merry Christmas and that makes you so mad that it outweighs in your mind, real things that are really happening in the world. Now the establishment has your support to damage the environment and they got paid advertising dollars to do it.

How much do I hate hearing Merry Christmas? Well the recent PPP poll sums it up:

9% prefer Happy Holidays (well we do live in a diverse society)
45% prefer Merry Christmas (that would be you and other conservatives)
46% said they don't care (that would be the vast majority of us libs, who simply don't care which is used. Both are nice expressions of friendship).

Furthermore:
3% are offended by Merry Christmas (in other words, almost nobody cares)
13% are offended by Happy Holidays (still very few, but some of you precious snowflakes are easily offended)

So you have been propagandized into voting for establishment corporate interests because you think I care if somebody says Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. It's hard for me to politely say what that makes me think of your thought processing skills.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/20/poll-conservatives-most-likely-to-be-offended-by-holiday-greetings/?utm_term=.e673521e3cda
burritos
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OdontoBear66;842781957 said:

Thought that is exactly what you folks wanted. Take it from the rich, give it to the poor...Look at what is considered the coastal blue states----all in the 40s and high 30s...Nicely helpin' them poor folk in the middle. Now you are complaining?


You make a good point. Yes, that is what I want. I, like every person, is subject to tribalism and forget that those in the backwoods are actually in my tribe. Maybe if they'd show some appreciation instead of hating "my ilk", I'd be able to step back and appreciate the "wealth transfer" gesture that we are already doing.
DangerBear
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burritos;842782006 said:

You make a good point. Yes, that is what I want. I, like every person, is subject to tribalism and forget that those in the backwoods are actually in my tribe. Maybe if they'd show some appreciation instead of hating "my ilk", I'd be able to step back and appreciate the "wealth transfer" gesture that we are already doing.


It is what I want except that it is not what's going to happen. Incrementally shifting around taxation on wages will not reverse the massive accumulation of wealth by the 0.1%.
OdontoBear66
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Just like Cal football, I rarely get what I want in politics. Matter of fact, almost never. You take the good with the bad when you are a moderate and figure out which side mostly represents your belief systems. And since my core beliefs center around fiscal conservatism, I rarely find myself crossing over as I would expect you would find in the opposite direction. Would you have gotten all you wanted with HRC, or Bernie, or EW? I rather doubt it, but do not know. So I find many of my moderate stances are in conflict with that fiscal conservatism forcing me to choose. I believe the further politics gets from home the worse it is: Home is best, locality/city next, then county, diminishing to state, and then federal. Are such agencies necessary? Yes, but the less the better.

At the same time I recognize we have built this monstrosity at the state and federal levels. A reality, but I don't have to like it. So in your mind you compromise. As you can probably imagine I basically find politics distasteful while recognizing its existence. Would be so nice if it were as it was with our founders. Small and so much more simple, and definitely less involved in all our lives.
Unit2Sucks
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I always thought happy holidays was xmas + New Years. Why do conservatives hate New Years? I haven't seen any difference in behavior this year but to be honest like most normal people as cited in dajo's post - I am not paying attention because it doesn't really matter.
dajo9
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OdontoBear66;842782015 said:

Just like Cal football, I rarely get what I want in politics. Matter of fact, almost never. You take the good with the bad when you are a moderate and figure out which side mostly represents your belief systems. And since my core beliefs center around fiscal conservatism, I rarely find myself crossing over as I would expect you would find in the opposite direction. Would you have gotten all you wanted with HRC, or Bernie, or EW? I rather doubt it, but do not know. So I find many of my moderate stances are in conflict with that fiscal conservatism forcing me to choose. I believe the further politics gets from home the worse it is: Home is best, locality/city next, then county, diminishing to state, and then federal. Are such agencies necessary? Yes, but the less the better.

At the same time I recognize we have built this monstrosity at the state and federal levels. A reality, but I don't have to like it. So in your mind you compromise. As you can probably imagine I basically find politics distasteful while recognizing its existence. Would be so nice if it were as it was with our founders. Small and so much more simple, and definitely less involved in all our lives.


The only fiscal conservative running for President was Hillary Clinton. I recall in a post long ago you said if Trump were President spending would go down. I scoffed at that notion. Well, here we go. I expect we'll see higher spending combined with lower tax revenue and exploding deficits - just like we've seen from 2 of the last 3 Republican Presidents (and no Democratic Presidents in my lifetime). I don't know how you define fiscal conservatism but if it involves reckless disregard for budgetary constraints you are about to be very happy.
sycasey
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OdontoBear66;842782001 said:

BTW, do you love how much you are hearing "Merry Christmas" this year everywhere as opposed to years gone by. Not as an insult to anyone, but as an expression of freedom of expression.


I hear it exactly as often as I did before. Not sure why you are bringing up this non-issue.
 
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