O/T Game of Thrones

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travelingbears
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calbear93;842863357 said:

If Dany brings a dragon to a negotiation after having lost one already, she deserves to lose it, and Tyrion would be the worst hand in the history of Westeros. And I think dragon horn ship has sailed already. If she didn't use it at the last battle (instead opting to use the stupid crossbow), she's not going to use it now when, with all of the soldiers present, she might as start the mass destruction right there and then.


Given the lack of explanations of so many things in this season (e.g., the issues I wrote above), do you really think the dragon horn's ship has really sailed? A dragon horn can be so much more easily explained than the issues I listed, such as they found the dragon horn after the last battle (given that weeks and months go by in any episode).

Also, do you really believe Cersei's above mass destruction at any given point? It's the last episode of the season - I absolutely believe there will be mass destruction and her controlling one dragon is very possibly one of the reasons why.
GB54
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calbear93;842863335 said:

That's exactly what I was thinking. As if she wouldn't use the WW as she did with the High Sparrow (which backfired) or some wildfire to blow up her enemies and scorch the Earth. The evil queen will all of a sudden say - yes, I will give up my throne and bend the knee so that the rest of the world will fight death. Is she the only one with a brain?


My thought is that this is set up- Tyrion continues to screw up and fall out of favor until he snatches victory from the jaws of Cersei's fiery head.
BearNecessities
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sycasey;842863287 said:

Could have been days or weeks


They would have been dead if it was weeks.
BearNecessities
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sycasey;842863307 said:

Though as to this question about why Dany didn't just fly the dragons in: it wasn't explicitly stated before, but she said in this episode, "You don't truly believe it until you see." I think she didn't completely believe in the White Walker story either. She was willing to send dragons on a specific rescue mission, but not necessarily on some wild goose chase.


Sorry, you don't get to choose which times you want to explain the plot with logic and then say "Oh, it's just a show - you can't be logical about why parts of the plot don't work." Dany comes when she does purely for Deus Ex Machina and nothing else.
sycasey
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BearNecessities;842863367 said:

Sorry, you don't get to choose which times you want to explain the plot with logic and then say "Oh, it's just a show - you can't be logical about why parts of the plot don't work." Dany comes when she does purely for Deus Ex Machina and nothing else.


That's not about the logic of the plot, it's trying to determine the character's motivation.
calbear93
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travelingbears;842863361 said:

Given the lack of explanations of so many things in this season (e.g., the issues I wrote above), do you really think the dragon horn's ship has really sailed? A dragon horn can be so much more easily explained than the issues I listed, such as they found the dragon horn after the last battle (given that weeks and months go by in any episode).

Also, do you really believe Cersei's above mass destruction at any given point? It's the last episode of the season - I absolutely believe there will be mass destruction and her controlling one dragon is very possibly one of the reasons why.


That would **** me off. They go through all this planning, and Cersei uses the dragon horn they didn't even really talk about or even introduce as a possibility and starts the final war right there with all of the Unsullied and Drakaris present. What then? Maybe 10% of the human army now left to get crushed by the WWs? Might as well end the series right there with the Night King sitting on the throne. My guess would be that Cersei somehow betrays the living but is then made one of the dead by someone close to her or by Arya.
calbear93
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sycasey;842863372 said:

That's not about the logic of the plot, it's trying to determine the character's motivation.


Much better way to do this, I think. Why would she be convinced by someone she didn't even know about reporting that they met the ice zombies if she didn't believe it at all before? A better explanation would have been that, after Jon and Jorah left, she decided that she had to use her might to help her new friends. That would explain why she was able to get to them in time without having to have Gendry run all the way across, have some Maester send a raven, and have Dany, based on the Raven note about the limited observation of someone she doesn't know, decide she is going to go help them. Her going on her own without prompting would reveal more of her character instead of pivoting from a random raven claiming that Jon and Jorah found what they were supposed to find.
sycasey
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calbear93;842863377 said:

Much better way to do this, I think. Why would she be convinced by someone she didn't even know about reporting that they met the ice zombies if she didn't believe it at all before? A better explanation would have been that, after Jon and Jorah left, she decided that she had to use her might to help her new friends. That would explain why she was able to get to them in time without having to have Gendry run all the way across, have some Maester send a raven, and have Dany, based on the Raven note about the limited observation of someone she doesn't know, decide she is going to go help them. Her going on her own without prompting would reveal more of her character instead of pivoting from a random raven claiming that Jon and Jorah found what they were supposed to find.


That would have been a more elegant way to do it, yeah.
ttgiang15
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travelingbears;842862685 said:

...Overall, I think Season 7 has been a bit of a disappointment thus far. It's moving too quickly and isn't allowing stories to develop and viewers to become more attached to the characters. Compared to the earlier seasons (e.g., show pulled you into loving Rob and Cat, then Red Wedding happened out of nowhere to give you shock value and sadness), I agree with others that this show is becoming more predictable and hasn't pulled me in emotionally as much.


I think by now, given the current cast of survivors and the amount of screen time they've each accumulated over the seasons, it's assumed that we already have some degree of emotional attachment to the remaining characters. I think that's reasonably fair. To your comment, I would argue the opposite is true, that the producers need to have viewers more attached to their stories (and not necessarily the characters, themselves), instead. It's not really believable why and how quickly certain characters accepted certain schemes/arrangements (Olenna for the Casterly Rock takeover/King's Landing siege, Randall Tarly's breaking faith with House Tyrell, Gendry & Jorah to the North of the Wall, etc.). In the past, Game of Thrones excelled in this capacity in two ways: 1) providing clues along the way to give the audience time to appreciate the context/background to a developing plot (for example, we knew the two bastards were on a collision course, and enjoyed the battle more because of struggles and challenges that led up to that episode), and 2) provide texture to key decision-makers that keeps us guessing which path a character would take. These take time to develop, and that's a luxury producers no longer have. The timelines have been compressed, the narrative has been expedited. In the past, it would have taken an entire 10-episode season to lead up to an event like the Loot Train Attack or the foray north of the Wall. Now, the entire introduction, execution, and conclusion of a plot can be packaged together in a single episode (or two). For me, it's a tad unfulfilling.

I've been reading some interesting commentary that 7x06 episode is where Game of Thrones finally fully embraces the fantasy epic genre (most often compared to Lord of the Rings movies) for good or bad. Over the years, a lot of folks have grown familiar with and appreciated the complicated, competing machinations; the long-game narrative, dialogue subtleties, multiple storylines and multi-dimensional characters. For many, these are the reasons that set Game of Thrones apart from other shows, the sources of our enjoyment. Now, characters are seemingly defined more by outcome of events, than the process that led up to them. In the past, those events tended to be more minor - like a betrayal, discovery of a truth, and so forth - that was more significant in its potentiality to snowball into something greater down the line. Well, we're near the end of the line, so the seismic events we have witnessed this season (returning to Dragonstone, meeting of ice and fire, battles, etc.) owe to a larger narrative, and necessarily glosses over nuances and merges character identities for greater cohesion. To some, this departure is sacrilegious. Which leads to the next point: we're all part of the problem, too. For fans, there's simply not a lot of room left for imagination. We have a limited cast remaining and the end game has never been in doubt, the winners and losers (show-by-show, and our own guesses as to the final outcome) are becoming more predictable or, at the very least, has less variability. Leaks don't help. And fan theories, at this point, probably hurt more than enhance our viewing experience. There's only so many scenarios left, we've undoubtedly covered most of them by now. It is invariably setting up for anti-climactic end, and based on growing discontent among some opinions out there, I'm not so sure that reality hasn't already started settling in.
SRBear
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I just get the feeling they're tired of introducing too much or stringing the story out and are rushing to get it done.
gobears725
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ttgiang15;842863418 said:

I think by now, given the current cast of survivors and the amount of screen time they've each accumulated over the seasons, it's assumed that we already have some degree of emotional attachment to the remaining characters. I think that's reasonably fair. To your comment, I would argue the opposite is true, that the producers need to have viewers more attached to their stories (and not necessarily the characters, themselves), instead. It's not really believable why and how quickly certain characters accepted certain schemes/arrangements (Olenna for the Casterly Rock takeover/King's Landing siege, Randall Tarly's breaking faith with House Tyrell, Gendry & Jorah to the North of the Wall, etc.). In the past, Game of Thrones excelled in this capacity in two ways: 1) providing clues along the way to give the audience time to appreciate the context/background to a developing plot (for example, we knew the two bastards were on a collision course, and enjoyed the battle more because of struggles and challenges that led up to that episode), and 2) provide texture to key decision-makers that keeps us guessing which path a character would take. These take time to develop, and that's a luxury producers no longer have. The timelines have been compressed, the narrative has been expedited. In the past, it would have taken an entire 10-episode season to lead up to an event like the Loot Train Attack or the foray north of the Wall. Now, the entire introduction, execution, and conclusion of a plot can be packaged together in a single episode (or two). For me, it's a tad unfulfilling.

I've been reading some interesting commentary that 7x06 episode is where Game of Thrones finally fully embraces the fantasy epic genre (most often compared to Lord of the Rings movies) for good or bad. Over the years, a lot of folks have grown familiar with and appreciated the complicated, competing machinations; the long-game narrative, dialogue subtleties, multiple storylines and multi-dimensional characters. For many, these are the reasons that set Game of Thrones apart from other shows, the sources of our enjoyment. Now, characters are seemingly defined more by outcome of events, than the process that led up to them. In the past, those events tended to be more minor - like a betrayal, discovery of a truth, and so forth - that was more significant in its potentiality to snowball into something greater down the line. Well, we're near the end of the line, so the seismic events we have witnessed this season (returning to Dragonstone, meeting of ice and fire, battles, etc.) owe to a larger narrative, and necessarily glosses over nuances and merges character identities for greater cohesion. To some, this departure is sacrilegious. Which leads to the next point: we're all part of the problem, too. For fans, there's simply not a lot of room left for imagination. We have a limited cast remaining and the end game has never been in doubt, the winners and losers (show-by-show, and our own guesses as to the final outcome) are becoming more predictable or, at the very least, has less variability. Leaks don't help. And fan theories, at this point, probably hurt more than enhance our viewing experience. There's only so many scenarios left, we've undoubtedly covered most of them by now. It is invariably setting up for anti-climactic end, and based on growing discontent among some opinions out there, I'm not so sure that reality hasn't already started settling in.


I think that they traded some of the story telling aspects for the CGI/special effects. If it were a normal 10 episode season, I dont think that you would have as many of these plot holes. They would have had time to develop for example the Sansa/Arya rivalry, Jon Snow/Dany romance. Those types of things feels rushed like theres something missing(probably because there is). That said the dragon/war scenes have been spectacular. Cant have it all I guess.
Yogi Is King
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SRBear;842863423 said:

I just get the feeling they're tired of introducing too much or stringing the story out and are rushing to get it done.


I don't understand that attitude - the show has got to be a huge money maker for them. Why not take the time to do it right?
GB54
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Overall, despite the clumsy plotting, I think it's been a superior season because things are moving to a head not sideways, plus all these tangential characters and stories are finally intersecting in a dramatic not episodic way
travelingbears
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ttgiang15;842863418 said:

I think by now, given the current cast of survivors and the amount of screen time they've each accumulated over the seasons, it's assumed that we already have some degree of emotional attachment to the remaining characters. I think that's reasonably fair. To your comment, I would argue the opposite is true, that the producers need to have viewers more attached to their stories (and not necessarily the characters, themselves), instead. It's not really believable why and how quickly certain characters accepted certain schemes/arrangements (Olenna for the Casterly Rock takeover/King's Landing siege, Randall Tarly's breaking faith with House Tyrell, Gendry & Jorah to the North of the Wall, etc.). In the past, Game of Thrones excelled in this capacity in two ways: 1) providing clues along the way to give the audience time to appreciate the context/background to a developing plot (for example, we knew the two bastards were on a collision course, and enjoyed the battle more because of struggles and challenges that led up to that episode), and 2) provide texture to key decision-makers that keeps us guessing which path a character would take. These take time to develop, and that's a luxury producers no longer have. The timelines have been compressed, the narrative has been expedited. In the past, it would have taken an entire 10-episode season to lead up to an event like the Loot Train Attack or the foray north of the Wall. Now, the entire introduction, execution, and conclusion of a plot can be packaged together in a single episode (or two). For me, it's a tad unfulfilling.

I've been reading some interesting commentary that 7x06 episode is where Game of Thrones finally fully embraces the fantasy epic genre (most often compared to Lord of the Rings movies) for good or bad. Over the years, a lot of folks have grown familiar with and appreciated the complicated, competing machinations; the long-game narrative, dialogue subtleties, multiple storylines and multi-dimensional characters. For many, these are the reasons that set Game of Thrones apart from other shows, the sources of our enjoyment. Now, characters are seemingly defined more by outcome of events, than the process that led up to them. In the past, those events tended to be more minor - like a betrayal, discovery of a truth, and so forth - that was more significant in its potentiality to snowball into something greater down the line. Well, we're near the end of the line, so the seismic events we have witnessed this season (returning to Dragonstone, meeting of ice and fire, battles, etc.) owe to a larger narrative, and necessarily glosses over nuances and merges character identities for greater cohesion. To some, this departure is sacrilegious. Which leads to the next point: we're all part of the problem, too. For fans, there's simply not a lot of room left for imagination. We have a limited cast remaining and the end game has never been in doubt, the winners and losers (show-by-show, and our own guesses as to the final outcome) are becoming more predictable or, at the very least, has less variability. Leaks don't help. And fan theories, at this point, probably hurt more than enhance our viewing experience. There's only so many scenarios left, we've undoubtedly covered most of them by now. It is invariably setting up for anti-climactic end, and based on growing discontent among some opinions out there, I'm not so sure that reality hasn't already started settling in.


Appreciate your taking the time to write such a lengthy response. I understand that the show needs to move more quickly due to being limited by 7 and 6 episodes in seasons 7 and 8, respectively.

However, I still believe the overall quality of the show has gone down. The visual effects have improved, but that's about it. The storylines just aren't as captivating; there are way too many unexplainable gaps that don't make sense (e.g., dead army marching on, then marching backwards to collect the dragon; or how they went underwater to chain the dragon); the not-so-subtle hints that act like foreshadowing and done in a way that minimizes surprises; the multiple last minute hero saves, sometimes in the same episode (e.g., Dany and then Benjen in eps 6).

Quite frankly, Game of Thrones Season 7 seems like an outlier compared to the first six seasons, and I, for one, believe season 7 has lost the essence and successful recipe of the series. Think about it from this perspective: there have always been minor scenes that fans complain about, but the growing number of discontent and complaints about season 7 overall are far more common than complaints about any of the past six seasons. This is based on the comments I've seen on other message boards, Reddit, Youtube reviews, and my circle of casual GoT fans (none of us read the books).

Prior to season 7, I would have ranked GoT the #2 best show of all time that I've watched, just a smidge behind Breaking Bad. With GoT season 7, I think it's still in my top 5 shows of all time, but that's likely because I've already invested so much interest into the show and the first six seasons were so damn captivating. Season 7 feels like they've not only taken shortcuts on the show to move the story along, but they've also taken shortcuts in the overall storytelling (hence all the unexplained gaps that make little to no sense). It's like they sold the soul for a pretty face... too much weight on the visual effects, costumes, etc., and not enough on the actual storytelling.
GMP
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Yogi Bear;842863429 said:

I don't understand that attitude - the show has got to be a huge money maker for them. Why not take the time to do it right?


Perhaps pressure from the actors, who are tied into this longterm? Perhaps topic fatigue from the creators?
SRBear
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I wish they would....L really enjoyed it when I felt that an hour never seemed enough. The little subtle details were enjoyable....now it seems kind of forced...like Gilly reading from the text about Lyanna and Rhaegar just felt like some kind of cheap throw away the the audience would know but it slipped over the usually observant Sam.
sycasey
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GB54;842863430 said:

Overall, despite the clumsy plotting, I think it's been a superior season because things are moving to a head not sideways, plus all these tangential characters and stories are finally intersecting in a dramatic not episodic way


I remember that in earlier seasons I heard lots of people complaining that "not much was happening" through Episode 5 or so, because they took so much time setting things up and making sure the right characters are in the right places. Now there is a lot happening and the complaint is that the plotting is rushed or lazy. That's to be expected.
kaplanfx
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sycasey;842863320 said:

Benjen Stark (Ned Stark's brother). He rescued Bran in one of the earlier seasons too. He was a guy who started to turn into a wight but was somehow rescued (don't recall how) and lived on as an "undead" but still with his own consciousness intact.


Technically he's Coldhands although he used the be Benjen Stark (the book covers this in a lot greater detail). He was saved by the Children of the Forest from becoming a wight, they jammed a piece of dragonglass in his chest.

-kap
MoragaBear
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To me, GoT is hands down my favorite series of all time and kills BB.
,
I don't get bogged down with expedited travel timelines or excelerated and sometimes implausible plotlines because there are so many payoffs for me -Dany finally in Westeros, finally seeing Casterly Rock and Highgarden, the battle strategy with Jaime outwitting Tyrion then Dany striking back with a vengeance with the dragon, Jon and Dany finally meeting and their relationship developing, Tyrion and Jaime meeting up again, Cersei and Jaime turning much of the Highgarden forces and forming a formidable military, the Dothraki vs. the Lannister forces, Jorah and Sam meeting and Sam healing him, the reveal about Jon being a legit Targaryen and heir to the throne, Bran, Sansa and Arya finally meeting up, the Hound and Tormund's great back and forth, dragons vs. wights, white walkers and the Night King, Jon killing another white walker with his Valerian steel sword and the wights that the white walker reanimated falling with him at his death, the ice bear, the ice dragon, Dany finally coming north and seeing what they were up against -so many really satisfying things to me.

They had 13 episodes to cover a ton of ground and even though the pacing is far faster and the characters and plot development less nuanced and plausible, Beniof and Weiss are not writing for GoT past season 8 and there is zero consideration of the series going any longer so I can appreciate the way everything has been written. Even the stupid venture beyond the wall led to some great character interactions and some awesome battle scenes, even if it was implausible and an silly idea.

As for Jon and Dany, she's falling for him not just because he's a good looking guy. She's marveling at his bravery, his humility and his desire to serve, even though he's a king. And then that he's even willing to serve her and convince the North to follow. Men have always tried to impress her or pursue her for her beauty and power and he's different so her falling for him seems perfectly reasonable to me and certainly his falling for her at this point in the game.

Yeah, Bran's annoying listlessness, the Sansa-Arya thing and Tyrion not at the top of his game are somewhat annoying, as was the plot to capture a wight north of the wall, but it's fantasy. There are so many great payoffs that I'm not about to play snooty critic and ruin my experience in the slightest. Zero interest in that.

Love this season and love GoT.
okaydo
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Also, HBO has released the first images from "Gendry & Gilly," its upcoming Game of Thrones romcom prequel.



smh
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whoopsie screen grab below. source:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6495[/ATTACH]
RioDelMarBear
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okaydo;842863777 said:



Also, HBO has released the first images from "Gendry & Gilly," its upcoming Game of Thrones romcom prequel.






The first two seasons of Skins were a lot of fun to watch. Good show.
BeachedBear
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GB54;842863445 said:

....Arya is most interesting when she is assasinating people. Why pull her off the road to Cersei and put her in family therapy?....


That's not really Arya....
burritos
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Is Arya trying to fake out littlefinger with here Sansa outrage? She doesn't seem like one to be played much.
sycasey
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burritos;842863829 said:

Is Arya trying to fake out littlefinger with here Sansa outrage? She doesn't seem like one to be played much.


I very much hope that's where she's going with this.
winemakerbear
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The earlier seasons were all based on the books, which contain copious details about the characters and their arcs. This last season is beyond the books, so that source of the details is no longer available, with only a general outline from GRRM for the writers to work with. We are no longer watching an adaption of the written works, but the final chapters of that story as imagined by the showrunners.
okaydo
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smh;842863795 said:

whoopsie screen grab below. source:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6495[/ATTACH]


That shot is from a behind-the-scenes featurette.
http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-of-thrones-beyond-the-wall-pickup-truck-goof/



RioDelMarBear;842863799 said:

The first two seasons of Skins were a lot of fun to watch. Good show.


One of my favorite-ever shows, but I was disappointed because there were several versions. The original UK-airing version featured awesome music. (I believe they had Adele before she hit it big.) I actually have a lot of their music on a playlist. But the version that hit DVD and that aired in the U.S. used generic music due to rights fees.
smh
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> behind the scenes

like george rr martin (in this one way only) i've been too busy to watch, twigged from someone's retweet:
Yogi Is King
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MoragaBear;842863754 said:

Even the stupid venture beyond the wall led to some great character interactions and some awesome battle scenes, even if it was implausible and an silly idea.


It occurred to me the other day that the whole point of the stupid venture beyond the wall was to set up the zombie dragon and for no other reason, since showing Cersei a wight isn't going to get her cooperation. For me, that's stretching credibility a lot just for a gimmick.
sycasey
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Yogi Bear;842864047 said:

It occurred to me the other day that the whole point of the stupid venture beyond the wall was to set up the zombie dragon and for no other reason, since showing Cersei a wight isn't going to get her cooperation. For me, that's stretching credibility a lot just for a gimmick.


This might be where the show writers miss the George R.R. Martin scaffolding they'd previously worked under. Martin might have had a better reason to get the ice dragon created, but left to their own devices the show runners came up with this half-baked kidnapping idea.
MoragaBear
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Yogi Bear;842864047 said:

It occurred to me the other day that the whole point of the stupid venture beyond the wall was to set up the zombie dragon and for no other reason, since showing Cersei a wight isn't going to get her cooperation. For me, that's stretching credibility a lot just for a gimmick.


Yeah, it was a vehicle to introduce the ice dragon, for Dany to see just how lethal the Night King and his forces are, to bring together several characters in an interesting way, significant heartpounding drama and special effects and to bring Jon and Dany together in a way that I don't think most any other way would be nearly as convincing.

Yes, they took huge hits in credibility in the process. A significant chunk of hardcore GoT fans had major problems with it. But I can easily live with them playing things out the way they did. I'd have preferred it written differently but I'm still 100% down with them and loving every minute of it, despite occasional frustrations.
LudwigsFountain
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dajo9;842863295 said:

Why did the Night King throw his javelin at the flying dragon instead of the prone dragon with all the attackers piling on?


A prone dragon can't do an awesome crash landing.
Yogi Is King
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sycasey;842864056 said:

This might be where the show writers miss the George R.R. Martin scaffolding they'd previously worked under. Martin might have had a better reason to get the ice dragon created, but left to their own devices the show runners came up with this half-baked kidnapping idea.


Well, not all of the scaffolding was good. I highly supported how they slashed and burned a bunch of the filler from A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons.

But a lot of this season doesn't make sense to me. Euron decimates Yarra's fleet and the ships that took the Unsullied, but then disappears completely from the plot. The Unsullied take Casterly Rock, realize that there aren't as many people there as there ought to be and then....just stay in Casterly Rock? Daenerys decimates the Lannister army with her dragon and Dothraki, then immediately stops doing anything militarily instead of finishing off the job? Bran can see everything, but other than a few lines in Winterfell and warging into a flock of ravens, he's doing nothing. If the three-eyed raven is supposed to be such a gamechanger, why isn't he doing anything? Littlefinger is hovering around Winterfell...why? Is he hoping to take it from the Starks or build an alliance to continue his goal of taking the throne for himself, which doesn't make a lot of sense because the North has no interest in participating in the squabble over the throne anymore. And somehow Cersei and Tyrion have switched roles where Cersei's suddenly not as stupid as she has been in the past while Tyrion can't seem to give a good piece of advice at all.

And I'm saying right now that the decision to have the death of one White Walker cause multiple wights to die at once, especially to advance the stupid Beyond The Wall quest, is a tremendous cheat.

Just a lot of action without a lot of thought into how each development leads to the one that follows IMO. I'm still watching and I'm still mostly enjoying it, but more for the big reveals (Jon not a bastard) than for the storycrafting, which has taken a tremendous hit.
MoragaBear
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Regarding the Unsullied, all their ships were burned and Casterly Rock is a long way from Dragonstone in a land they don't know at all.

It is kind of convenient that Euron's disappeared when they need to deal with other plotlines but there are no other naval forces for them to fight and the Ironborn have never been known for their fighting on land and probably don't have great numbers.

I'm sure he'll show up an another opportune time, though.
sycasey
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Has Euron disappeared from the plot? I thought he was pretty much on Team Cersei now. He's just far away from the action in the North at the moment.
 
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