Awesome! They'll love the totally chill Fanbase that comes with Star Wars!wifeisafurd said:
Yes, that is the latest. They moved on to Star Wars.
It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
Lets Tyrion and the council run things, basically.dbklalw said:It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
People having to justify and rationalize behavior proves your point that the last two seasons consisted of characters acting merely to service the plot.GBear4Life said:
Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:
What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)
At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.
The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.
Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.
Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.
Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.
Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.
Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.
But why would he want that or any other result? He would seem to be indifferent.sycasey said:Lets Tyrion and the council run things, basically.dbklalw said:It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
I think you summarized the fault with the last season perfectly. If time was a constraint, they could have done away with all of Jon's true heritage since it actually did not matter at all. They could have done away with Jaime's character arc since it did not matter or support the story. I honestly have a hard time understanding the point of the White Walkers at this point. They could have made this a story about a strong, charismatic leader who starts with all of the right intentions but turns into a tyrannical monster whose moral compass was slowly altered. Breaking Bad was amazing because the turn made sense. Dany breaking bad made no sense, and the resolution for the characters was silly at best.OneKeg said:
Overall, I felt many of the final outcomes in the TV show are ones that a great story could reach. But ever since it went beyond the actual written book source material (and sometimes even before that) the TV show has been a great spectacle but a mediocre/hollow story at best. More on the level of a standard decent-budget action movie. And that's ok. The actors were still good and some of the scenes were still breathtaking. On balance, I'm glad I watched it.
For me, Dany breaking bad was a more likely possibility than anything you raised here, though I agree the cause-and-effect was not as clear as it could have been.dbklalw said:People having to justify and rationalize behavior proves your point that the last two seasons consisted of characters acting merely to service the plot.GBear4Life said:
Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:
What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)
At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.
The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.
Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.
Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.
Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.
Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.
Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.
What made the books and the first 5 or so seasons so amazing was that, despite existing in a world with dragons, knights, and magic, there was truth to the way the characters behaved and the way the consequences followed prior actions.
All that went away in Seasons 7 and 8. The characters choices seemed untrue and illogical, and completely inconsistent with what we were told in prior 6 seasons.
I was not happy with references that the show "foreshadowed" Dany's madness, as if we are to ignore all of the other character development, including the sacrifices she made for the North and the compassion she had for her friends and displaced/oppressed.
What they did to Dany based on "foreshadowing" would be similar to:
Turning Arya into a mad serial killer after she kills the Night King because there were scenes foreshadowing how she took pleasure in killing. After all, not all of the people in the House of Frey were guilty. Then, based on someone saying that Arya has gone mad, having Jon kill her. Would that not erase all prior 7 seasons of character development?
Or turning Sansa into another Ramsay Bolton after she is made Queen because there were scenes foreshadowing how she takes pleasure in cruel punishment. After all, she took pleasure in watching Ramsay being eaten by dogs and having Littlefinger killed without a real trial. Then, after someone saying that Sansa has gone mad, having Jon kill her. Would that not erase all their prior experiences and all prior 7 seasons of character development?
None of that would feel true even if someone could argue that they were foreshadowing this. It would not feel true because there was not enough story development where, even if we wished those things did not happen, it would still feel true to what we had seen as a strong possibility.
Subverting expectation does not make it clever or interesting. I would not have been impressed if they subverted expectations and turned every Stark into frogs. No one would have expected that, and it would have felt untrue and nonsensical.
I don't know that it's a question of him wanting it or not? Tyrion suggested him and the rest of the council voted for him. He just accepted it.dbklalw said:But why would he want that or any other result? He would seem to be indifferent.sycasey said:Lets Tyrion and the council run things, basically.dbklalw said:It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
Yes, it did matter but not in the way people expected. It was more of a burden than a benefit.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
But he knew it would be suggested by Tyrion, which is why he came in the first place. So he did want it.sycasey said:I don't know that it's a question of him wanting it or not? Tyrion suggested him and the rest of the council voted for him. He just accepted it.dbklalw said:But why would he want that or any other result? He would seem to be indifferent.sycasey said:Lets Tyrion and the council run things, basically.dbklalw said:It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
I don't agree - he didn't kill her out of self-preservation. It seemed clear to me that he killed her because he was afraid she'd do more harm than good to all the people of the world.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
GMP said:I don't agree - he didn't kill her out of self-preservation. It seemed clear to me that he killed her because he was afraid she'd do more harm than good to all the people of the world.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
ducky23 said:GMP said:I don't agree - he didn't kill her out of self-preservation. It seemed clear to me that he killed her because he was afraid she'd do more harm than good to all the people of the world.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
Agreed. It would be completely out of character for Jon to kill her out of self preservation
GMP said:I don't agree - he didn't kill her out of self-preservation. It seemed clear to me that he killed her because he was afraid she'd do more harm than good to all the people of the world.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
Well, this depends on how you see his "vision" powers (and the show left a lot open to interpretation). One possibility is that he sees what is about to happen and knows he can't do anything to change it. Or he sees many possibilities and knows this is a very likely one and maybe the least bad one. Something like that.dbklalw said:But he knew it would be suggested by Tyrion, which is why he came in the first place. So he did want it.sycasey said:I don't know that it's a question of him wanting it or not? Tyrion suggested him and the rest of the council voted for him. He just accepted it.dbklalw said:But why would he want that or any other result? He would seem to be indifferent.sycasey said:Lets Tyrion and the council run things, basically.dbklalw said:It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
I am debating this because you are intelligent and reasonable. This show was meant to please the 13+ million fans and not a nerdy lawyer like me.
He definitely did it for everyone, not just for himself.ducky23 said:GMP said:I don't agree - he didn't kill her out of self-preservation. It seemed clear to me that he killed her because he was afraid she'd do more harm than good to all the people of the world.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
Agreed. It would be completely out of character for Jon to kill her out of self preservation
I agree with that, now that you've explained the point.TheSouseFamily said:GMP said:I don't agree - he didn't kill her out of self-preservation. It seemed clear to me that he killed her because he was afraid she'd do more harm than good to all the people of the world.TheSouseFamily said:
Jon Snow's lineage did matter ultimately. It's what convinced Jon that he'd always be perceived as a threat to Dany and that she could easily off him because of it. This was the argument that others (Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) were making and he finally accepted it in the end. Absent the lineage, I don't think he ever kills Dany.
Not that simple, I'd argue. It's not all one or the other. I agree that self-preservation isn't his guiding motive. But with his lineage known by the key players, it's not just him personally at risk but his entire family who think he's the rightful heir. As Tyrion says in the jail, "wouldn't you kill anyone that stands in the way of you and paradise?" And "there's nothing more dangerous than a rightful heir to the Iron Throne." Sure, he cares about all the people in the world being at risk, but also his family and all those who would support him as king. As long as Dany sees Jon's claim as a threat and as long as the Starks (and others) see Jon as the rightful heir, there will be no peace.. only more killing.
TheSouseFamily said:
The D+D boys at least paid attention to subtle details of language and accents in their characters. They never would have had "Soviets" with British accents like on Chernobyl (which kinda ruins the entire show).
okaydo said:TheSouseFamily said:
The D+D boys at least paid attention to subtle details of language and accents in their characters. They never would have had "Soviets" with British accents like on Chernobyl (which kinda ruins the entire show).
I've read an interview where they basically said that the Russian accents wouldn't work and would be too distracting.
I've been watching Warrior. Done by the same guy who did Banshee on Cinemax. Both share a certain "style". It 'ain't exactly Citizen Kane but I'm enjoying it nevertheless.ducky23 said:okaydo said:TheSouseFamily said:
The D+D boys at least paid attention to subtle details of language and accents in their characters. They never would have had "Soviets" with British accents like on Chernobyl (which kinda ruins the entire show).
I've read an interview where they basically said that the Russian accents wouldn't work and would be too distracting.
I saw that somewhere too.
Anyone check out the cinemax show "warrior" based on Bruce lee's original concept
They went the hunt for red October route. Dudes speak English thru most of the show but switch to Chinese whenever in the presence of white dudes. It's fairly distracting.
GBear4Life said:
The season 8 GoT parodies are funny
And painfully on point. However, I guess I am one of the few who actually enjoyed the last season. With zombies and magical dragons, don't you have to suspend belief to enjoy the show?TheSouseFamily said:GBear4Life said:
The season 8 GoT parodies are funny
That's freaking hilarious.
Maybe Bran was just the true evil mastermind. Jon was never the sharpest tool, and he would have been a disaster as a leader.dbklalw said:But he knew it would be suggested by Tyrion, which is why he came in the first place. So he did want it.sycasey said:I don't know that it's a question of him wanting it or not? Tyrion suggested him and the rest of the council voted for him. He just accepted it.dbklalw said:But why would he want that or any other result? He would seem to be indifferent.sycasey said:Lets Tyrion and the council run things, basically.dbklalw said:It was difficult for me to understand how he functions at all if he, as he claims, does not want. I would expect him to be like the prior three-eye raven and just observe. How is he to be a leader if he doesn't want for anything, including justice and well-being for his people?sycasey said:I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.golden sloth said:
Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
I am debating this because you are intelligent and reasonable. This show was meant to please the 13+ million fans and not a nerdy lawyer like me.
Yeah, I think I just figured out quickly that things were going to happen super fast and just rolled with it.calbear93 said:And painfully on point. However, I guess I am one of the few who actually enjoyed the last season. With zombies and magical dragons, don't you have to suspend belief to enjoy the show?TheSouseFamily said:GBear4Life said:
The season 8 GoT parodies are funny
That's freaking hilarious.
sycasey said:
Wow, harsh. I think he's just doing a kind of generic "80s teen movie" ending, which is something people associate with John Hughes regardless of whether or not he wrote or directed the movie. Using "Everybody Wants To Rule the World" seems like something chosen as thematically appropriate for GoT rather than a direct reference to Real Genius.ducky23 said:sycasey said:
First off, the ending to some kind of wonderful is probably my favorite ending of all time (the end to pretty in pink isn't bad either - omd still believes "if you leave" ruined their careers, but it's still a f'ing great song)
Second, real genius isn't even a John Hughes movie. So I'm not sure whether this twitter guy is trying to be ironic or is just a moron (btw real genius - awesome ending as well).
