Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

McD All-American Ubaka? He was not that good. I checked the 2003 game. LBJ, CP3, Travis Outlaw Brandon Bass, Charlie Villaneuva and Loul Deng (wow, what a team!) against Shannon Brown, Aaron Brooks, Kris Humphries, Kendrick Perkins and, most importantly, Leon Powe.

I was at the game you mentioned. Midgley kind of peaked in high school, as did Legans. Both too slow at their heights.

sluggo said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

McD All-American Ubaka? He was not that good. I checked the 2003 game. LBJ, CP3, Travis Outlaw Brandon Bass, Charlie Villaneuva and Loul Deng (wow, what a team!) against Shannon Brown, Aaron Brooks, Kris Humphries, Kendrick Perkins and, most importantly, Leon Powe.

I was at the game you mentioned. Midgley kind of peaked in high school, as did Legans. Both too slow at their heights.

---

I stand corrected. He was only a 4th team Parade All-American and 1st team All-State. The mind only remembers what it wants to sometimes, I guess.

Civil Bear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

McD All-American Ubaka? He was not that good. I checked the 2003 game. LBJ, CP3, Travis Outlaw Brandon Bass, Charlie Villaneuva and Loul Deng (wow, what a team!) against Shannon Brown, Aaron Brooks, Kris Humphries, Kendrick Perkins and, most importantly, Leon Powe.

I was at the game you mentioned. Midgley kind of peaked in high school, as did Legans. Both too slow at their heights.

---

I stand corrected. He was only a 4th team Parade All-American and 1st team All-State. The mind only remembers what it wants to sometimes, I guess.

---

Ubaka was ranked #35 in the RSCI Composite Top 100 for 2003, which is a high ranking. I felt he was over-rated as a recruit. He was hard to watch in his first couple of years at Cal - he did not shoot well, and was forever dribbling around the perimeter, looking for a crease in the defense, I guess. He improved over his years as Cal, especially his shooting. With the game on the line in the final seconds, Cal never had a better clutch free throw shooter to ice the game. He did that over and over, as I remember.

Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

I felt Legans was the better point guard because he had more assists than Midge. He was a little more of a "pass-first" point guard. And as you mentioned, he ran a nice fast-break.

On a related note, where has the fast break gone? It has been a long time since Cal had a good fast break. It seems all our breaks, at least since Montgomery was the coach, have been low percentage plays with lots of dribbling and few passes. It seems like most or all teams play the same way now. As soon as a defender gets a rebound or a loose ball, he will try and dribble it up the floor as fast as he can, often getting way ahead of his teammates, and with all the emphasis on transition defense these days, he will be taking the ball to the basket by himself against one or two defenders.

SFCityBear said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

I felt Legans was the better point guard because he had more assists than Midge. He was a little more of a "pass-first" point guard. And as you mentioned, he ran a nice fast-break.

On a related note, where has the fast break gone? It has been a long time since Cal had a good fast break. It seems all our breaks, at least since Montgomery was the coach, have been low percentage plays with lots of dribbling and few passes. It seems like most or all teams play the same way now. As soon as a defender gets a rebound or a loose ball, he will try and dribble it up the floor as fast as he can, often getting way ahead of his teammates, and with all the emphasis on transition defense these days, he will be taking the ball to the basket by himself against one or two defenders.

---

We had great defensive rebounders in Solomon, Thurman, Kravish and Crabbe who were also good passers and could feed Cobbs, Mathews and Bird on the break.

The 2012-13 team was #16 in the nation in defensive rebounding.

Cuonzo's 2014-15 team was #14 in defensive rebounding and #19 the following year.

This year we were ranked #299 in defensive rebounding, worst in the PAC-12 and one of the worst in the country. Tough to get fast breaks if you don't get rebounds.

We were also #321 in tempo (and #315 last year). Fox wants to slow the game down, not speed it up.

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

How did this putrid Pac-12 get 5 teams in?

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

How did this putrid Pac-12 get 5 teams in?

---

I was thinking the same thing. It could be the general decrease in quality of life in America, or wait, it must be the Covid, which makes everything worse.

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

How did this putrid Pac-12 get 5 teams in?

---

Well, whether a conference is "putrid" is judged by more than the pure number of teams in the tournament.

Sure, 68 teams get in, but how many actually deserve to be playing for the title? When playing a one and done tourney, anything can happen, so sure, in theory, anybody can win, especially when a team gets help from other fluke wins and doesn't have to play all the best teams.

In the "modern" era of 16 seeds in each of the four regions starting in 1985, only 3 teams outside of the top 4, have won a title, and two of those were in the first 4 seasons of the modern era, only one of those since 1988, UConn in 2014 when was a 7 seed and played 8 seed Kentucky in the championship game. Except for that game, Butler is the only team outside the top 3 that made the finals and didn't play a number 1 seed when it lost to 3 seed UConn in the 2011 championship.

As a generally rule, any team that doesn't have a top 4 seed isn't really good enough to be playing for a championship. It is better to judge how putrid a conference is by how many teams it was able to get in the top 4 seeds.

The putrid Pac-12 had, um, zero teams seeded in the top 4. While the Pac-12 got 5 teams total in the tourney (in part because the conference was putrid enough that Oregon St. could knock off 3 of the top 4 teams in the conference and get an automatic berth) the Big-10 and the Big-12 got 5 teams seeded in the top 4. The Sec and ACC had two each (a down year for the ACC for sure, with no teams in the top 3 seeds and 2 teams in the top 4), the WCC one (#1 seed Gonzaga), and the American Conference one (#2 seed Houston). There are six conferences better than the Pac-12 in terms of teams in the top 4. Can the Pac-12 at least claim seventh best?

Well, if we're going to flip down to 5 seeds, covering the top 20 teams in the tournament, the Big East got 2, the SEC one, and the Pac-10 with its best seed in Colorado. So in terms of the top 20 teams in the tournament, looks like the Pac-12 is the EIGHTH best conference in the country. Oops, we didn't move up by that criteria.

For a P5 conference, being 8th best is, um, putrid. Every P5 conference except one had at least 2 teams with top 4 seeds, with the remaining conference, the P-12, having zero. Um, putrid.

A good argument can be made that the best OOC win for a Pac-12 team this year was Stanford beating Alabama in the first game of the year, but it was the first game of the year, the Maui Invitational being played in North Carolina, a weird fluke was bound to happen. The conference overall was PUTRID.

But even with mediocre 5 teams, the Pac-12 had the fewest teams in the tourney of any P5 conference. Combine that with having zero teams with top 4 seeds, and the Pac-12 is the worst of the P5 conferences by far. And Cal finished last in that putrid conference.

So you are saying that PAC12 basketball is putrid?

Cal8285 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

How did this putrid Pac-12 get 5 teams in?

---

Well, whether a conference is "putrid" is judged by more than the pure number of teams in the tournament.
[...]

A good argument can be made that the best OOC win for a Pac-12 team this year was Stanford beating Alabama in the first game of the year, but it was the first game of the year, the Maui Invitational being played in North Carolina, a weird fluke was bound to happen. The conference overall was PUTRID.

But even with mediocre 5 teams, the Pac-12 had the fewest teams in the tourney of any P5 conference. Combine that with having zero teams with top 4 seeds, and the Pac-12 is the worst of the P5 conferences by far. And Cal finished last in that putrid conference.

---

I wasn't being sarcastic. I agree that the Pac-12 is putrid. So how did we get so many teams get in? There have been much better years where we didn't see 5 teams in. Is that rest of the NCAA also that bad this year?

My criterion for ranking conferences is total number of NCAA Tournament wins in a given year. That includes selections (you can't win without being selected) as well as quality (you can lose after being selected). It also balances conferences with one great team against conferences with a number of good teams. And it's easy to calculate. But you have to wait till the tournament is done.

stu said:

---

My criterion for ranking conferences is total number of NCAA Tournament wins in a given year. That includes selections (you can't win without being selected) as well as quality (you can lose after being selected). It also balances conferences with one great team against conferences with a number of good teams. And it's easy to calculate. But you have to wait till the tournament is done.

---

Here is Sagarin's Rankings of the Conferences:
1. Big Ten 84.6
2. Big 12 84.2
3. ACC 82.9
4. Big East 82.2
5. SEC 82.0
6. PAC-12 80.2
7. American Athletic 77.4
8. Atlantic 10 76.4'
9. West Coast 75.7
10. Mountain West 73.9
And so on, with 34 leagues the worst being the Southwestern

I think they should expand the tournament from 68 to 72.

Right now the tournament is unbalanced with West and the Midwest First Four playing for the 16 seed, while the East and South play for the 11 seed.

Adding 4 more teams will make the tournament bracket symmetrical and the extra teams expands the opportunity to (presumably) another 2 mid-majors and another 2 P6 teams.

72 teams will still only be 20% of the 350 D1 teams, and 72 teams still doesn't keep pace with the growth of D1 teams

The NCAA should then change the NIT to 16 teams (as it is this year)

dimitrig said:

---

Cal8285 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

How did this putrid Pac-12 get 5 teams in?

---

Well, whether a conference is "putrid" is judged by more than the pure number of teams in the tournament.
[...]

A good argument can be made that the best OOC win for a Pac-12 team this year was Stanford beating Alabama in the first game of the year, but it was the first game of the year, the Maui Invitational being played in North Carolina, a weird fluke was bound to happen. The conference overall was PUTRID.

But even with mediocre 5 teams, the Pac-12 had the fewest teams in the tourney of any P5 conference. Combine that with having zero teams with top 4 seeds, and the Pac-12 is the worst of the P5 conferences by far. And Cal finished last in that putrid conference.

---

I wasn't being sarcastic. I agree that the Pac-12 is putrid. So how did we get so many teams get in? There have been much better years where we didn't see 5 teams in. Is that rest of the NCAA also that bad this year?

---

We had our 5th best team win the conference tournament and steal a bid. Otherwise it would have been 4 teams.

sycasey said:

---

UCLA beats Michigan St. Chalk one up for the Pac-12!

---

This helped:

Tom Izzo: Michigan State coach argues with Gabe Brown - Sports Illustrated


https://www.si.com/college/2021/03/19/tom-izzo-gabe-brown-michigan-state

sycasey said:

---

UCLA beats Michigan St. Chalk one up for the Pac-12!

---

UCLA made 9 of 18 threes to beat a play-in team in overtime. Good win for the conference but the next game will be tougher.

stu said:

---

sycasey said:

---

UCLA beats Michigan St. Chalk one up for the Pac-12!

---

UCLA made 9 of 18 threes to beat a play-in team in overtime. Good win for the conference but the next game will be tougher.

---

I mean, "the next game will be tougher" is almost always true in a knockout tournament.

sycasey said:

---

stu said:

---

sycasey said:

---

UCLA beats Michigan St. Chalk one up for the Pac-12!

---

UCLA made 9 of 18 threes to beat a play-in team in overtime. Good win for the conference but the next game will be tougher.

---

I mean, "the next game will be tougher" is almost always true in a knockout tournament.

---

Yes, that's true. From what I saw UCLA had to shoot very well for this win so I think even if the next game were against the same team it would be tough.

stu said:

---

sycasey said:

---

stu said:

---

sycasey said:

---

UCLA beats Michigan St. Chalk one up for the Pac-12!

---

UCLA made 9 of 18 threes to beat a play-in team in overtime. Good win for the conference but the next game will be tougher.

---

I mean, "the next game will be tougher" is almost always true in a knockout tournament.

---

Yes, that's true. From what I saw UCLA had to shoot very well for this win so I think even if the next game were against the same team it would be tough.

---

Michigan St. was #46 in Predictor, #31 in Recent
UCLA was #44 in Predictor, #80 in Recent.

Next opponent BYU is #28, #19 in Recent

It's about matchups

I don't know anything about BYU, but UCLA has size across their lineup except PG

Ucla will be without a key player, top scorer, according to the announcers.

https://247sports.com/Article/Johnny-Juzang-injury-UCLA-Bruins-basketball-Michigan-State-Spartans-NCAA-Tournament-March-Madness-162657489/

Justice Sueing's tournament is over as tOSU falls.
Vanover's team certainly struggled but came back late.

ncbears said:

---

Justice Sueing's tournament is over as tOSU falls.

---

He came up small. Breaks my heart.

tOSU was running some of the ugliest offense I've ever seen down the stretch. Not getting good shots at all, settling for contested jumpers. They deserved to lose.

OR State Beavs looking good against Tennessee

ncbears said:

---

Justice Sueing's tournament is over as tOSU falls.
Vanover's team certainly struggled but came back late.

---

Where is blueblood? We need him to say Sueing and tOSU got Oinked!

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

I felt Legans was the better point guard because he had more assists than Midge. He was a little more of a "pass-first" point guard. And as you mentioned, he ran a nice fast-break.

On a related note, where has the fast break gone? It has been a long time since Cal had a good fast break. It seems all our breaks, at least since Montgomery was the coach, have been low percentage plays with lots of dribbling and few passes. It seems like most or all teams play the same way now. As soon as a defender gets a rebound or a loose ball, he will try and dribble it up the floor as fast as he can, often getting way ahead of his teammates, and with all the emphasis on transition defense these days, he will be taking the ball to the basket by himself against one or two defenders.

---

We had great defensive rebounders in Solomon, Thurman, Kravish and Crabbe who were also good passers and could feed Cobbs, Mathews and Bird on the break.

The 2012-13 team was #16 in the nation in defensive rebounding.

Cuonzo's 2014-15 team was #14 in defensive rebounding and #19 the following year.

This year we were ranked #299 in defensive rebounding, worst in the PAC-12 and one of the worst in the country. Tough to get fast breaks if you don't get rebounds.

We were also #321 in tempo (and #315 last year). Fox wants to slow the game down, not speed it up.

---

Plus we do not have a dominant guy on the glass. So we send multiples. MAYBE one guy cheats out. MAYBE.

RJABear said:

---

OR State Beavs looking good against Tennessee

---

Beavs dominate the Vols, wire-to-wire.

Pac-12 is good maybe?

socaltownie said:

---

calumnus said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

oskidunker said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

KoreAmBear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Teams of interest for Cal fans:
Colorado
USC
Oregon
Oregon St.
UCLA
Ohio State-Sueing
Arkansas-Vanover
Eastern Washington-Legans
Cleveland State-Gates
UCSB-The kicker

Others?

---

I think we only had one win over a tournament team, Colorado, correct?

---

If UCSB has "The Kicker", then Eastern Washington should have "The Quitter".

---

Give Shantay a break. He has said leaving Cal was the worst decision he has made and he regrets it. I recall a 40 foot heave at usc which won the game for us.

---

When did he say that? I would love to see a source and learn why he would say it.

---

Cant find it. But was some years ago. recall talking to some people back then about it.His Uncle coached at Fresno. Thats why he went there.

---

I believe it was a friend of the family "Uncle", but yeah, that was the story. He (and his mother) also wasn't happy about losing minutes to a walk-on, and reports were he was getting schooled by the incoming Midgley in the summer. IIRC, ShanTay's (his preferred spelling) timing to bolt from Cal was not good.

---

A.J Diggs was the walk-on?

I was fine with Midgley getting the job as a freshman instead of a would be senior Legans with Diggs as his backup. Midgley was an upgrade. I would have been fine with Donte Smith getting some minutes behind him too, but that never happened.

It is interesting that two of our guards from those teams, Legans and Gates, now are coaching teams that won their conference and are now in the Tournament.

---

I always felt that of the two, Midgley was the better shot and better defender, but Legans was the better point guard. Legans' junior year was his least productive, while Midgley's first year might have been his best at least in terms of shooting accuracy. At the time, I was sorry to see Legans go, but Midgley worked out quite well for us. Still, I would have like to have seen them duke it out for playing time. Not only that, but Legans would have been a far better backup PG to Diggs, a good defender, but a one tool player.

---

Both Legans and Midgley benefitted their frosh years shooting percentage-wise where they only took open threes. I watched Midgley play some in HS where he ran the point very aggressively but dialed it way down and played much more under control his frosh season at Cal. It's hard to imagine Legans as the better pg as his first two seasons at Cal were basically walking the ball upcourt and passing around the perimeter for most of the shot-clock. He did run a nice fast-break on occasion though.

I remember watching Midgley one summer when Modesto Christian went up against Lebron James, Powe, Kately, Ubaka, and the rest of the Oakland Soldiers. Ubaka and another future Div I guard (can't remember his name) pretty much doubled and bird-dogged Midgley the whole game and the kid managed to hold his own, breaking Ubaka's ankles on more than one occasion. The worst thing that happened to Midgley was the McD All-American Ubaka coming in and being given the pg reigns from day-1 and having to slide over to the 2. RM was much more effective player with the ball in his hands, IMO.

---

I felt Legans was the better point guard because he had more assists than Midge. He was a little more of a "pass-first" point guard. And as you mentioned, he ran a nice fast-break.

On a related note, where has the fast break gone? It has been a long time since Cal had a good fast break. It seems all our breaks, at least since Montgomery was the coach, have been low percentage plays with lots of dribbling and few passes. It seems like most or all teams play the same way now. As soon as a defender gets a rebound or a loose ball, he will try and dribble it up the floor as fast as he can, often getting way ahead of his teammates, and with all the emphasis on transition defense these days, he will be taking the ball to the basket by himself against one or two defenders.

---

We had great defensive rebounders in Solomon, Thurman, Kravish and Crabbe who were also good passers and could feed Cobbs, Mathews and Bird on the break.

The 2012-13 team was #16 in the nation in defensive rebounding.

Cuonzo's 2014-15 team was #14 in defensive rebounding and #19 the following year.

This year we were ranked #299 in defensive rebounding, worst in the PAC-12 and one of the worst in the country. Tough to get fast breaks if you don't get rebounds.

We were also #321 in tempo (and #315 last year). Fox wants to slow the game down, not speed it up.

---

Plus we do not have a dominant guy on the glass. So we send multiples. MAYBE one guy cheats out. MAYBE.

---

Yeah, we were #299 in defensive rebounding, last in the PAC-12 one of the worst in the country. You can't break if you don't get rebounds. And we were not going to try to push tempo off made baskets. Fox wants the opposite.

sycasey said:

---

RJABear said:

---

OR State Beavs looking good against Tennessee

---

Beavs dominate the Vols, wire-to-wire.

Pac-12 is good maybe?

---

Or SEC basketball is not good? Ok Arkansas came from behind to win and Florida hung on. But Georgia Tech went lost as well.

ncbears said:

---

Justice Sueing's tournament is over as tOSU falls.
Vanover's team certainly struggled but came back late.

---

Sueing had an undistinguished stat line.

Vanover played just 4 minutes. Looks like they went small - Arkansas played 4 guards 32 minutes or more and their forward Smith had 29 points, 13 boards, and 5 steals.

ncbears said:

---

sycasey said:

---

RJABear said:

---

OR State Beavs looking good against Tennessee

---

Beavs dominate the Vols, wire-to-wire.

Pac-12 is good maybe?

---

Or SEC basketball is not good? Ok Arkansas came from behind to win and Florida hung on. But Georgia Tech went lost as well.

---

So it looks like .500 for the SEC so far. Tennessee is the only team to lose a game they were favored by seed to win. Arkansas went down early (hot shooting by Colgate) but dominated the rest of the game and won comfortably; I thought they looked good.

We also had UCLA beating MSU from the Big 10, which is supposed to be the best conference (granted, it was a play-in game).