philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Quite the Cinderella story this season! For anybody who followed them closely, so, I guess they were picked to finish last in the conference? Were there a lot of people last October-November that said, "No way, they are much better than that!"?

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

The only shame is that it's not possible to have a Final Four of only Pac-12 teams.

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

And OSU has better players. We might feel it's wonderful to go to Cal over a place like Oregon St. but that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. As it happens we visited Corvallis in 2019 and I found it to be a very nice small town, but then I live in a relatively small town too and not in a big city so it wouldn't be a culture shock. We also visited in the summer when it was sunny and not raining constantly.

sycasey said:

---

The only shame is that it's not possible to have a Final Four of only Pac-12 teams.

---

Well, three out of four is still possible, and that is a very good percentage in anything in basketball, except maybe shooting free throws.

Go Beav's ... fight on, you tail flappers !

Larno said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

And OSU has better players. We might feel it's wonderful to go to Cal over a place like Oregon St. but that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. As it happens we visited Corvallis in 2019 and I found it to be a very nice small town, but then I live in a relatively small town too and not in a big city so it wouldn't be a culture shock. We also visited in the summer when it was sunny and not raining constantly.

---

Maybe at this moment, but Cal has had much better recruiting year over year for the last 30 years. Not that long ago we had three/four McDonald's All Americans on the rosterwhen was the last time OSU had that much highly rated talent?

Sleepy small towns are not what most 18 year old 4 and 5 star basketball players want. They will go there to join a winning program and get good coaching but that is more in spite of the small town than because of it.

Cal is a FAR better location for recruiting than Corvallis. Give Tinkle his due.

Yes, all credit to Tinkle and the Beavs, but they were a bit lucky as they easily could have been eliminated early in the Pac12 tournament and be sitting at home like Cal is.

philbert said:

---

Yes, all credit to Tinkle and the Beavs, but they were a bit lucky as they easily could have been eliminated early in the Pac12 tournament and be sitting at home like Cal is.

---

They probably would have been in the NIT

calumnus said:

---

They probably would have been in the NIT

---

Ok, but unless your team is in the NIT, nobody else really cares. I've only watched the NIT the years that Cal or my hometown team has played in it.

Each Pac12 team gets $500,000 for the Oregon State win. Godsend in a year with no ticket sales( other than those who renewed and let it ride for the fall).

NCAA Tournament: Oregon State men stun Loyola Chicago, make history


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2021/03/27/ncaa-tournament-oregon-state-stuns-loyola-chicago-elite-eight/7029680002/



" They just want to keep riding the wave," said Beavers coach Wayne Tinkle. "We did use the fact we were picked 12th in the Pac-12 this year. ...But we haven't made a big deal about the 12th seed."

calumnus said:

---

Larno said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

And OSU has better players. We might feel it's wonderful to go to Cal over a place like Oregon St. but that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. As it happens we visited Corvallis in 2019 and I found it to be a very nice small town, but then I live in a relatively small town too and not in a big city so it wouldn't be a culture shock. We also visited in the summer when it was sunny and not raining constantly.

---

Maybe at this moment, but Cal has had much better recruiting year over year for the last 30 years. Not that long ago we had three/four McDonald's All Americans on the rosterwhen was the last time OSU had that much highly rated talent?

Sleepy small towns are not what most 18 year old 4 and 5 star basketball players want. They will go there to join a winning program and get good coaching but that is more in spite of the small town than because of it.

Cal is a FAR better location for recruiting than Corvallis. Give Tinkle his due.

---

when Tinkle went to OSU, he brought his star (Cal would have probably landed him if his dad was still at Montana) and then Tinkle hired the dad of the second and third best player.

I thought last year OSU had the best shot as they had all three of the sons, plus a pretty good big.

therefore when big bro and Tres graduated I thought OSU would have a down year

Ethan Thompson surprised me (I thought his bro was better)

Congrats to the Beavs

Oregon State hold off Loyola Chicago to reach first Elite Eight since 1982


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/27/ncaa-tournament-sweet-sixteen-scores?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

---

It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

---

Since I've been a Cal fan (Kutchen) the only Cal coaches who won 20 or more games by their second season:
Campanelli
Bozeman
Braun
Montgomery
Martin
Ie every single coach except this one and the last one. We were right to fire Jones. Hiring Fox was a mistake.

bearister said:

---

Oregon State hold off Loyola Chicago to reach first Elite Eight since 1982


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/27/ncaa-tournament-sweet-sixteen-scores?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

---

I thought a key was Tinkle playing zone against Loyola, it really disrupted their offense.

OSU looks well coached on both sides of the court.

Connor "The One that got away" Vanover had a great line against Oral today.

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

Except we had montgomery too and he couldn't get us past the second round. Let's face it - Cal is cursed. We can never get the stars aligned to even have fluke luck season.

bearister said:

---

"When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox."

Do you live in the Alternate Fact Universe or are you just hoping no one has a memory?

" Braun replaced Todd Bozeman as the head coach at Cal prior to the 1996-97 season. Expectations were low as the Golden Bears were predicted to finish in the bottom half of the conference. However, the team finished tied for second in the conference and reached the NCAA Sweet 16. The team finished the season 239 and gave Braun a school record for most wins by a Bear coach in his first year with the program. Braun went on to win the Pac-10 Coach of the Year - the first Cal coach to ever receive the award.

In the 1998-99 season, Braun's club defeated North Carolina, UCLA, and Arizona during the course of the year to become the first team ever at Cal to beat three Top 10 schools in the same season. Then after entering the NIT, the Bears, led by Geno Carlisle, won five consecutive postseason games to capture the NIT title - Cal's first postseason tournament championship since the Bears won the 1959 NCAA title. Cal finished the 1998-99 campaign with a 2211 record.

In 2000-01, the Bears returned to the NCAA Tournament, finishing with a 2011 record, and Sean Lampley - Braun's first recruit at Cal after NCAA sanctions were lifted from Bozeman's tenure - became the school's all-time leading scorer late in his senior campaign, finishing with 1,776 points.

In 2001-02, the Bears again went 239 and tied for second in the Pac-10 standings. Cal earned a No. 6 seed in the NCAA playoffs, where the Bears toppled Penn before falling to Pittsburgh in the second round.

In 2002-03, Cal again reached the second round of the NCAA Tournament behind All-Pac-10 forwards Joe Shipp and Amit Tamir. Shipp ended his career in the No. 3 position on the Bears' all-time scoring list, while teammate Brian Wethers finished in the No. 15 position.

In 2005-06, Cal defeated USC and Oregon to reach the Pac-10 Tournament final for the first time ever. Leon Powe and the Bears then earned a No. 7 regional seed in the NCAA Tournament and finished the year with a 2011 mark. On November 21, 2005, Cal defeated Long Beach State, 88-69, to give Braun his 500th career win.

Two days after losing to Ohio State in the 2008 National Invitation Tournament, Braun was fired as head coach of the Golden Bears on March 26, 2008.[7] During his tenure at Cal, Braun directed the Bears to more postseason appearances and more postseason victories than any coach in school history. His 219 wins in 12 years are second to Nibs Price (1925-54, 449-294) in both tenure and wins at Cal, while his Cal winning percentage (.606) is the best at the school since Hall of Famer Pete Newell guided the Bears to a 119-44mark from 1955-60." Wikipedia

---

Braun was Fox (not great with Xs and Os, more about getting your guys to play tough man to man defense and find a scorer to get the ball to) but with much better recruiting, better relations with the West Coast AAU programs, better international recruiting and better relations with our major donor....

HoopDreams said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Larno said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

And OSU has better players. We might feel it's wonderful to go to Cal over a place like Oregon St. but that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. As it happens we visited Corvallis in 2019 and I found it to be a very nice small town, but then I live in a relatively small town too and not in a big city so it wouldn't be a culture shock. We also visited in the summer when it was sunny and not raining constantly.

---

Maybe at this moment, but Cal has had much better recruiting year over year for the last 30 years. Not that long ago we had three/four McDonald's All Americans on the rosterwhen was the last time OSU had that much highly rated talent?

Sleepy small towns are not what most 18 year old 4 and 5 star basketball players want. They will go there to join a winning program and get good coaching but that is more in spite of the small town than because of it.

Cal is a FAR better location for recruiting than Corvallis. Give Tinkle his due.

---

when Tinkle went to OSU, he brought his star (Cal would have probably landed him if his dad was still at Montana) and then Tinkle hired the dad of the second and third best player.

I thought last year OSU had the best shot as they had all three of the sons, plus a pretty good big.

therefore when big bro and Tres graduated I thought OSU would have a down year

Ethan Thompson surprised me (I thought his bro was better)

Congrats to the Beavs

---

You weren't alone. The Pac12 media picked Tinkle's OSU team to finish in last place (again).

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

---

It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

---

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it's worth noting that there are informed non-cal fans who believe Fox did very well last year. Heck, Jon Wilner voted Fox Pac12 coach of the year last year.

And while you've said you rely on your personal "eye test" over the 7 years of Tinkle's poor-to-abysmal records at OSU (including 1-17 in Year 3), I simply don't buy that if Wayne Tinkle were coaching at Cal with that kind of performance over seven years, that you'd be satisfied and supportive. I think you're falling for, and exploiting, Tinkle's glass slipper moment.

---

OSU is #35 in Ken Pom offensive efficiency. The switch to zone against Loyola was astute.. They are well coached. Tinkle is a good coach, but he is not a great recruiter and OSU is a tough spot to recruit to. He has a good team this year but they are clearly punching above their weight. Sometimes you have to look beyond the record.

Fox is also not a good recruiter but he is a worse Xs and Os coach than Tinkle.

All things being equal, Cal is FAR more attractive to recruits than OSU. With the right coach we can do better than OSU is doing.

bearister said:

---

"When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox."

Do you live in the Alternate Fact Universe or are you just hoping no one has a memory?

" Braun replaced Todd Bozeman as the head coach at Cal prior to the 1996-97 season. Expectations were low as the Golden Bears were predicted to finish in the bottom half of the conference. However, the team finished tied for second in the conference and reached the NCAA Sweet 16. The team finished the season 23-9 and gave Braun a school record for most wins by a Bear coach in his first year with the program. Braun went on to win the Pac-10 Coach of the Year - the first Cal coach to ever receive the award.

In the 1998-99 season, Braun's club defeated North Carolina, UCLA, and Arizona during the course of the year to become the first team ever at Cal to beat three Top 10 schools in the same season. Then after entering the NIT, the Bears, led by Geno Carlisle, won five consecutive postseason games to capture the NIT title - Cal's first postseason tournament championship since the Bears won the 1959 NCAA title. Cal finished the 1998-99 campaign with a 2211 record.

In 2000-01, the Bears returned to the NCAA Tournament, finishing with a 2011 record, and Sean Lampley - Braun's first recruit at Cal after NCAA sanctions were lifted from Bozeman's tenure - became the school's all-time leading scorer late in his senior campaign, finishing with 1,776 points.

In 2001-02, the Bears again went 239 and tied for second in the Pac-10 standings. Cal earned a No. 6 seed in the NCAA playoffs, where the Bears toppled Penn before falling to Pittsburgh in the second round.

In 2002-03, Cal again reached the second round of the NCAA Tournament behind All-Pac-10 forwards Joe Shipp and Amit Tamir. Shipp ended his career in the No. 3 position on the Bears' all-time scoring list, while teammate Brian Wethers finished in the No. 15 position.

In 2005-06, Cal defeated USC and Oregon to reach the Pac-10 Tournament final for the first time ever. Leon Powe and the Bears then earned a No. 7 regional seed in the NCAA Tournament and finished the year with a 2011 mark. On November 21, 2005, Cal defeated Long Beach State, 88-69, to give Braun his 500th career win.

Two days after losing to Ohio State in the 2008 National Invitation Tournament, Braun was fired as head coach of the Golden Bears on March 26, 2008.[7] During his tenure at Cal, Braun directed the Bears to more postseason appearances and more postseason victories than any coach in school history. His 219 wins in 12 years are second to Nibs Price (1925-54, 449-294) in both tenure and wins at Cal, while his Cal winning percentage (.606) is the best at the school since Hall of Famer Pete Newell guided the Bears to a 119-44 mark from 1955-60." Wikipedia


*Ben Braun got institutionally stale and it was time to make a change...he is a good dude.

---

Well said. Braun had his limitations but was a much better coach than most on this board credit him.

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

---

It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

---

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it's worth noting that there are informed non-cal fans who believe Fox did very well last year. Heck, Jon Wilner voted Fox Pac12 coach of the year last year.

And while you've said you rely on your personal "eye test" over the 7 years of Tinkle's poor-to-abysmal records at OSU (including 1-17 in Year 3), I simply don't buy that if Wayne Tinkle were coaching at Cal with that kind of performance over seven years, that you'd be satisfied and supportive. I think you're falling for, and exploiting, Tinkle's glass slipper moment.

---

Last year Cal ran no off-ball screens. This year Cal ran no off-ball screens. Any bets on next year? Should I ask Wilner?

I mentioned that I liked Tinkle before his NCAA run, probably after he beat Cal for the third time. I supported Monty win or lose because he was good at his job. It is all I want. Results will vary.

Did a nice job the first year with Bozeman's players. Did have three NBA players on the team plus Tony Gonzalez. I remember late in the season they played a very big Stanford team with Mark Madsen and others. It was like watching an old big east game. There were bodies everywhere. Was clear in that first year that he was not the coach that I had hoped for. Good recruiter and good eye for talent. Wish it would not have gone so long. Was night-and-day how much better Monty used his recruits. Went from 9th to 3rd AFTER losing Ryan Anderson. Then to 1st.

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

---

It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

---

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it's worth noting that there are informed non-cal fans who believe Fox did very well last year. Heck, Jon Wilner voted Fox Pac12 coach of the year last year.

And while you've said you rely on your personal "eye test" over the 7 years of Tinkle's poor-to-abysmal records at OSU (including 1-17 in Year 3), I simply don't buy that if Wayne Tinkle were coaching at Cal with that kind of performance over seven years, that you'd be satisfied and supportive. I think you're falling for, and exploiting, Tinkle's glass slipper moment.

---

Last year Cal ran no off-ball screens. This year Cal ran no off-ball screens. Any bets on next year? Should I ask Wilner?

I mentioned that I liked Tinkle before his NCAA run, probably after he beat Cal for the third time. I supported Monty win or lose because he was good at his job. It is all I want. Results will vary.

---

Wait, I'm stuck on you saying Cal ran no off-ball screens. I assume you're not speaking literally. Do you mean you feel they should have run more off-ball screens? Because I'm pretty sure nearly every single offensive set includes multiple off-ball screens.

And yes, if you're open to considering a different perspective than your own or that of biased Cal fans, you might ask Wilner what was his reasoning for voting Fox Pac12 COY last year. I assume you know he's not prone to being pro-Cal. He encourages inquiries at pac12hotline@bayareanewsgroup.com. (Not that Wilner is any kind of a definitive voice, but it is his full-time job to be informed about this subject, and he is known to take his media voting responsibilities seriously and transparently, and he's pretty objective in this regard.)

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

---

That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

---

It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

---

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it's worth noting that there are informed non-cal fans who believe Fox did very well last year. Heck, Jon Wilner voted Fox Pac12 coach of the year last year.

And while you've said you rely on your personal "eye test" over the 7 years of Tinkle's poor-to-abysmal records at OSU (including 1-17 in Year 3), I simply don't buy that if Wayne Tinkle were coaching at Cal with that kind of performance over seven years, that you'd be satisfied and supportive. I think you're falling for, and exploiting, Tinkle's glass slipper moment.

---

Last year Cal ran no off-ball screens. This year Cal ran no off-ball screens. Any bets on next year? Should I ask Wilner?

I mentioned that I liked Tinkle before his NCAA run, probably after he beat Cal for the third time. I supported Monty win or lose because he was good at his job. It is all I want. Results will vary.

---

Wait, I'm stuck on you saying Cal ran no off-ball screens. I assume you're not speaking literally. Do you mean you feel they should have run more off-ball screens? Because I'm pretty sure nearly every single offensive set includes multiple off-ball screens.

---

I counted for a half and posted here. I think it was like 6 in the half. Not literal.

calumnus said:

---

drizzlybear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

sluggo said:

---

philbert said:

---

Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

---

Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

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That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

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It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

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Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it's worth noting that there are informed non-cal fans who believe Fox did very well last year. Heck, Jon Wilner voted Fox Pac12 coach of the year last year.

And while you've said you rely on your personal "eye test" over the 7 years of Tinkle's poor-to-abysmal records at OSU (including 1-17 in Year 3), I simply don't buy that if Wayne Tinkle were coaching at Cal with that kind of performance over seven years, that you'd be satisfied and supportive. I think you're falling for, and exploiting, Tinkle's glass slipper moment.

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OSU is #35 in Ken Pom offensive efficiency. The switch to zone against Loyola was astute.. They are well coached. Tinkle is a good coach, but he is not a great recruiter and OSU is a tough spot to recruit to. He has a good team this year but they are clearly punching above their weight. Sometimes you have to look beyond the record.

Fox is also not a good recruiter but he is a worse Xs and Os coach than Tinkle.

All things being equal, Cal is FAR more attractive to recruits than OSU. With the right coach we can do better than OSU is doing.

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How do you know Fox is not that coach, or at least that he's not the the coach to restore some level of program combobulation so that Cal has a greater ability to attract that coach?

calumnus said:

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Braun was Fox (not great with Xs and Os, more about getting your guys to play tough man to man defense and find a scorer to get the ball to) but with much better recruiting, better relations with the West Coast AAU programs, better international recruiting and better relations with our major donor....

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This is a pretty accurate statement, when comparing their XOs with the likes of Altman & Miller (or Calipari or Pitino). I've spent some time coaching (summer camps and clinics) with Braun and Campanelli (& Bozeman & Randy Bennett & others) both were very good with Xs and Os - but with practical applications that applied to smaller programs (with less athleticism). Monty was better, no doubt. Martin was probably a notch below Braun/Campy in terms of X's/O's. Jones, like Bozeman was significantly worse (but Bozeman had superior talent). From what I've seen, I'd put Fox in the Braun/Campanelli camp - with the same problem of not being adept with more athletics teams.

The problem is that even with 'your type of guys', and that type of XOs, you're never going to have much success against more athletic programs - with even mediocre talent. Miller & Altman are good examples of applying different X's/O's to more athletic teams.

Since his name comes up, my experience with Joe Pasternak was similar. He could be tremendously successful at UCSB, but that may not translate to P5 competitiveness. However, he is also young and may have learned a lot at UA.

sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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drizzlybear said:

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sluggo said:

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SFCityBear said:

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sluggo said:

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philbert said:

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Go Beavs! If they can make the elite 8, why can't Cal?

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Wayne Tinkle versus Mark Fox.

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That is unfair, just another chance to bash the current Cal coach.

Wayne Tinkle is a good coach, but it took him 7 years to have this good team at Oregon State. He still hasn't had a 20 win season at OSU. And much of his success, maybe even allowing him to hold his job was he brought along his son, who was arguably his best player for 4 seasons.The year that Tres Tinkle was hurt, and played only 6 games, Wayne Tinkle's OSU team went 5-27, right down there with Fox's season this year and both Wyking Jones' seasons in terms of failure. Unfortunately, Fox did not bring a son of Tres Tinkle's caliber with him to Cal.

It takes time to build a winner at schools like OSU and Cal. Both schools had great basketball success in the past, and both have suffered a loss of basketball reputation over time. It is hard to recruit to either school, and hard to find the money to pay a proven coach. It took Larry Kristowiak four years to have a good team, a 20-win team at Utah. It just takes time.

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It is completely fair. Tinkle did not build a great program at OSU. He is just a good coach who puts his team in a position to have success if they get a few breaks. Similar to Mike M., Thad Boyle, Kyle Smith and Larry K.. The formula is you hire a coach who is good at Xs and Os and player development. Every so often, the planets will align and you will have success. It is no coincidence that the best Cal coach of my lifetime is the only one to win a conference championship in my lifetime.

When Monty came Cal looked good right away. It was night and day compared to Braun, who was incompetent like Fox. Every Tinkle team plays at or above their talent. Fox's team looked like crap last year and this year. And they will next year and every year until he is fired. I am looking forward to that day.

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Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but it's worth noting that there are informed non-cal fans who believe Fox did very well last year. Heck, Jon Wilner voted Fox Pac12 coach of the year last year.

And while you've said you rely on your personal "eye test" over the 7 years of Tinkle's poor-to-abysmal records at OSU (including 1-17 in Year 3), I simply don't buy that if Wayne Tinkle were coaching at Cal with that kind of performance over seven years, that you'd be satisfied and supportive. I think you're falling for, and exploiting, Tinkle's glass slipper moment.

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Last year Cal ran no off-ball screens. This year Cal ran no off-ball screens. Any bets on next year? Should I ask Wilner?

I mentioned that I liked Tinkle before his NCAA run, probably after he beat Cal for the third time. I supported Monty win or lose because he was good at his job. It is all I want. Results will vary.

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Wait, I'm stuck on you saying Cal ran no off-ball screens. I assume you're not speaking literally. Do you mean you feel they should have run more off-ball screens? Because I'm pretty sure nearly every single offensive set includes multiple off-ball screens.

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I counted for a half and posted here. I think it was like 6 in the half. Not literal.

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OK, I can't believe I had to do this, but your comment really shocked me. I just watched 10 Cal possessions in their conference tournament loss vs Colorado. They were the first ten possessions of a P12Net rebroadcast of the game (the most recent game still on my DVR). They are not the first ten possessions of the game because the rebroadcast jumped ahead "due to time constraints" from the 16:55 mark to the 10:51 mark of H1.
Possession 1: two off-ball screens (JC-GA, LT-GA)
Possession 2: one off-ball screen (GA-MB)
Possession 3: two off-ball screens (double screen for MB, GA-JC)
Possession 4: no off-ball screen
Possession 5: no off-ball screen
(Pac12 Net rebroadcast jumps ahead to 10:51)
Possession 6: one off-ball screen (Thorpe-MF)
Possession 7: three off-ball screens (Thorpe-Betley, Thorpe-GA, GA-MB)
Possession 8: no off-ball screen
Possession 9: N/A, early turnover
Possession 10: three off-ball screens (JB-GA, JC-AK, GA-MB)

These ten possessions and 11 documented off-ball screens occurred in less than five minutes of game time. I don't know what game you watched where you said you saw only 6 off-ball screens in half a game, but in this game Cal reached 6 off-ball screens (and I'm talking actual, feet-set screens, not merely players crossing paths) within the game's first three possessions. Not including the early turnover possession, 6 of Cal's first 9 possessions shown in this broadcast included off-ball screens, and four of those six included multiple off-ball screens within the possession.

So those number are way in excess of what you assert. Nevertheless, for comparison I also tracked Colorado's off-ball screens during the same portion of the broadcast. In their first ten possessions, two were transition possessions so I obviously won't count those (to be clear, though, neither of those possessions had any off-ball screens), and two more had zero off-ball possessions. That left six possessions of eight possessions with off-ball screens: one with one OBS, two with two, and three with three.

And while this was certainly a fairly small sample size, I'll note that on only two of those possessions was the Colorado shot taken or the play created by a person for whom an off-ball screen was made. I'll also note that Colorado did not make a basket nor getting a shooting foul on any of these possessions.

My conclusion from this mini-study is that in this portion of the broadcast of this particular game, selected essentially at random, there was no appreciable difference in the two teams' use of off-ball screens. Colorado had slightly more off-ball screens, but that is explained by Cal actually having made more baskets than Colorado during that portion of the broadcast (allowing them more opportunity to take the next possession in a set offense). In both teams' cases, basically every possession off a dead ball or made basket involved set piece that included multiple off-ball screens, and few possessions for either team otherwise did.

Of course, this was really an absurd study for me to do. Look, I know you to be a smart person in your field (so many of us have learned so much from you and the thread you've led on the COVID science topic, for which I am extremely appreciative), but the notion that any of us spectator fans would have the knowledge to judge long-time, high-level, successful college basketball coaches such as Fox and Johnson, etc., on the basis that we think they essentially don't do off-ball screens (which appears to not even be accurate), is, frankly, absurd and insulting.