OaktownBear said:

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GBear4Life said:

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Blaming the search firm makes no sense.

The AD gives them the criteria they want in a candidate, and CSA gives them a list that matches. The AD goes through them, asks questions, shortens the list to a group for interviews and is the autonomous decision maker in all of that.

If an AD say yes to a bad candidate because of a poor list from a search firm, that's on the AD to take additional steps to find the right one. An AD has to know what he's looking for and be able to identify it.

Fox fits all the safe boxes that is typical of a Cal athletic hiring manager: squeaky clean reputation; solid graduation rates, and in Knowlton's case someone with success as a HC (Nevada). It was the safe hire with a high floor and low ceiling, in theory.

I'm not as down on the hire as most, but I acknowledge the optimism naturally is greater with a lower level HC with a track record of only success and no failure (or a P6 reputable assistant) than a HC whose most recent record at a low profile P6 school is a failure.

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I'm not blaming the search firm. I'm blaming the guy that paid a search firm that is unqualified.

I disagree that the AD shouldn't have a list. He has all the alums, former players, former coaches from the school who can help. There are not that many names to sort through. It is a very small pool. I don't know how much Cal paid for the service, but one school paid $60K, so I doubt we got off cheaper. Monty would have come up with a better list in one phone call and probably would do it for free.

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tsubamoto2001 said:

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I think what should have been done is Knowlton having a committee or panel of knowledgeable basketball people to help him out. Similar to how Gladstone went about making the Tedford hire.

OaktownBear said:

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GBear4Life said:

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Blaming the search firm makes no sense.

The AD gives them the criteria they want in a candidate, and CSA gives them a list that matches. The AD goes through them, asks questions, shortens the list to a group for interviews and is the autonomous decision maker in all of that.

If an AD say yes to a bad candidate because of a poor list from a search firm, that's on the AD to take additional steps to find the right one. An AD has to know what he's looking for and be able to identify it.

Fox fits all the safe boxes that is typical of a Cal athletic hiring manager: squeaky clean reputation; solid graduation rates, and in Knowlton's case someone with success as a HC (Nevada). It was the safe hire with a high floor and low ceiling, in theory.

I'm not as down on the hire as most, but I acknowledge the optimism naturally is greater with a lower level HC with a track record of only success and no failure (or a P6 reputable assistant) than a HC whose most recent record at a low profile P6 school is a failure.

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I'm not blaming the search firm. I'm blaming the guy that paid a search firm that is unqualified.

I disagree that the AD shouldn't have a list. He has all the alums, former players, former coaches from the school who can help. There are not that many names to sort through. It is a very small pool. I don't know how much Cal paid for the service, but one school paid $60K, so I doubt we got off cheaper. Monty would have come up with a better list in one phone call and probably would do it for free.

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Big Dog said:

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Quote:

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I'm not blaming the search firm. I'm blaming the guy that paid a search firm that is unqualified.

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Maybe its the AD that is unqualified for a P5 conference.

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oski003 said:

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Todd Turner has been an Athletic Director at schools in 4 of the 6 original BCS Conferences. He has built a successful Coaching Search Firm, which he founded in 2010. He employs Dave Odom and Jim Miller for basketball related searches. Jim Miller was the Athletic Director at Richmond from 2000 until 2012. He played college basketball at Old Dominion. He hired Chris Mooney, who took Richmond to the Sweet 16. He retired from Richmond in 2014. Dave Odom coached Division One basketball for 22 years. His career record is 406-278. His teams went to the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and won 3 NIT Championships. He was ACC Coach of the Year three times and SEC Coach of the Year once. He has contacts with most NCAA Division 1 coaches.

Focusing on what CSA has accomplished in college basketball (as opposed to Todd Turner's record from decades prior to him starting a search firm), here are the records of CSA's hires for their new team. These records include 20 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16's, 1 Elite 8, and 1 Final Four.

1) Rick Barnes, Tennessee 88-50; 2 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
2) Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech, 100-69, 3 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
3) Len Kruger, Oklahoma, 160-105, 6 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Final Four
4) Bruce Weber, Kansas State, 150-89, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 Elite 8
5) Tom Crean, Georgia, 11-21 (previously took Indiana to 3 Sweet 16s and Marquette to Final Four)
6) Danny Manning, Wake Forest, 65-93, 1 NCAA appearance, largely considered a bad hire
7) Nathan Davis, Bucknell, 89-45, 2 NCAA appearances
8) Jeff Jones, Old Dominion, 140-67, 1 NCAA appearance
9) Mark Montgomery, NIU, 105-150
10) Dennis Felton, Cleveland State, 22-44
11) Herb Sendek, Santa Clara, 44-51
12) Ken Stallings, Pittsburgh, 24-41, bad hire
13) Kim Anderson, Missouri, 27-68, bad hire

Please note that this all began when I defended Cal against the following claim: a "Instead, Cal received a slapdash, hurried process that was dominated by a search agency with ulterior motives."

I simply asked for evidence that the Search Firm had ulterior motives. Part of that counter was information on Ted Turner's record. Completely omitted was actual information about the search firm's record. That information is far more relevant than Turner's record as an AD, especially in light of the fact that Dave Odom and Miller specialize in basketball searches. There are a lot of lawyers on this sight. They are biased; they argue and seldom present the entire picture.

Anyway, I understand the knock on Fox. The evidence indicates that he will likely not lead us to Pac 12 Championships. He has a medium floor and a medium ceiling. Many prefer a coach with a low floor and high ceiling.

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oski003 said:

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Todd Turner has been an Athletic Director at schools in 4 of the 6 original BCS Conferences. He has built a successful Coaching Search Firm, which he founded in 2010. He employs Dave Odom and Jim Miller for basketball related searches. Jim Miller was the Athletic Director at Richmond from 2000 until 2012. He played college basketball at Old Dominion. He hired Chris Mooney, who took Richmond to the Sweet 16. He retired from Richmond in 2014. Dave Odom coached Division One basketball for 22 years. His career record is 406-278. His teams went to the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and won 3 NIT Championships. He was ACC Coach of the Year three times and SEC Coach of the Year once. He has contacts with most NCAA Division 1 coaches.

Focusing on what CSA has accomplished in college basketball (as opposed to Todd Turner's record from decades prior to him starting a search firm), here are the records of CSA's hires for their new team. These records include 20 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16's, 1 Elite 8, and 1 Final Four.

1) Rick Barnes, Tennessee 88-50; 2 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
2) Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech, 100-69, 3 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
3) Len Kruger, Oklahoma, 160-105, 6 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Final Four
4) Bruce Weber, Kansas State, 150-89, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 Elite 8
5) Tom Crean, Georgia, 11-21 (previously took Indiana to 3 Sweet 16s and Marquette to Final Four)
6) Danny Manning, Wake Forest, 65-93, 1 NCAA appearance, largely considered a bad hire
7) Nathan Davis, Bucknell, 89-45, 2 NCAA appearances
8) Jeff Jones, Old Dominion, 140-67, 1 NCAA appearance
9) Mark Montgomery, NIU, 105-150
10) Dennis Felton, Cleveland State, 22-44
11) Herb Sendek, Santa Clara, 44-51
12) Ken Stallings, Pittsburgh, 24-41, bad hire
13) Kim Anderson, Missouri, 27-68, bad hire

Please note that this all began when I defended Cal against the following claim: a "Instead, Cal received a slapdash, hurried process that was dominated by a search agency with ulterior motives."

I simply asked for evidence that the Search Firm had ulterior motives. Part of that counter was information on Ted Turner's record. Completely omitted was actual information about the search firm's record. That information is far more relevant than Turner's record as an AD, especially in light of the fact that Dave Odom and Miller specialize in basketball searches. There are a lot of lawyers on this sight. They are biased; they argue and seldom present the entire picture.

Anyway, I understand the knock on Fox. The evidence indicates that he will likely not lead us to Pac 12 Championships. He has a medium floor and a medium ceiling. Many prefer a coach with a low floor and high ceiling.

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Golden One said:

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oski003 said:

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Todd Turner has been an Athletic Director at schools in 4 of the 6 original BCS Conferences. He has built a successful Coaching Search Firm, which he founded in 2010. He employs Dave Odom and Jim Miller for basketball related searches. Jim Miller was the Athletic Director at Richmond from 2000 until 2012. He played college basketball at Old Dominion. He hired Chris Mooney, who took Richmond to the Sweet 16. He retired from Richmond in 2014. Dave Odom coached Division One basketball for 22 years. His career record is 406-278. His teams went to the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and won 3 NIT Championships. He was ACC Coach of the Year three times and SEC Coach of the Year once. He has contacts with most NCAA Division 1 coaches.

Focusing on what CSA has accomplished in college basketball (as opposed to Todd Turner's record from decades prior to him starting a search firm), here are the records of CSA's hires for their new team. These records include 20 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16's, 1 Elite 8, and 1 Final Four.

1) Rick Barnes, Tennessee 88-50; 2 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
2) Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech, 100-69, 3 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
3) Len Kruger, Oklahoma, 160-105, 6 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Final Four
4) Bruce Weber, Kansas State, 150-89, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 Elite 8
5) Tom Crean, Georgia, 11-21 (previously took Indiana to 3 Sweet 16s and Marquette to Final Four)
6) Danny Manning, Wake Forest, 65-93, 1 NCAA appearance, largely considered a bad hire
7) Nathan Davis, Bucknell, 89-45, 2 NCAA appearances
8) Jeff Jones, Old Dominion, 140-67, 1 NCAA appearance
9) Mark Montgomery, NIU, 105-150
10) Dennis Felton, Cleveland State, 22-44
11) Herb Sendek, Santa Clara, 44-51
12) Ken Stallings, Pittsburgh, 24-41, bad hire
13) Kim Anderson, Missouri, 27-68, bad hire

Please note that this all began when I defended Cal against the following claim: a "Instead, Cal received a slapdash, hurried process that was dominated by a search agency with ulterior motives."

I simply asked for evidence that the Search Firm had ulterior motives. Part of that counter was information on Ted Turner's record. Completely omitted was actual information about the search firm's record. That information is far more relevant than Turner's record as an AD, especially in light of the fact that Dave Odom and Miller specialize in basketball searches. There are a lot of lawyers on this sight. They are biased; they argue and seldom present the entire picture.

Anyway, I understand the knock on Fox. The evidence indicates that he will likely not lead us to Pac 12 Championships. He has a medium floor and a medium ceiling. Many prefer a coach with a low floor and high ceiling.

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Your data show a success record for the Turner firm of only 46%. That's not very good.

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oski003 said:

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Todd Turner has been an Athletic Director at schools in 4 of the 6 original BCS Conferences. He has built a successful Coaching Search Firm, which he founded in 2010. He employs Dave Odom and Jim Miller for basketball related searches. Jim Miller was the Athletic Director at Richmond from 2000 until 2012. He played college basketball at Old Dominion. He hired Chris Mooney, who took Richmond to the Sweet 16. He retired from Richmond in 2014. Dave Odom coached Division One basketball for 22 years. His career record is 406-278. His teams went to the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and won 3 NIT Championships. He was ACC Coach of the Year three times and SEC Coach of the Year once. He has contacts with most NCAA Division 1 coaches.

Focusing on what CSA has accomplished in college basketball (as opposed to Todd Turner's record from decades prior to him starting a search firm), here are the records of CSA's hires for their new team. These records include 20 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16's, 1 Elite 8, and 1 Final Four.

1) Rick Barnes, Tennessee 88-50; 2 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
2) Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech, 100-69, 3 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
3) Len Kruger, Oklahoma, 160-105, 6 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Final Four
4) Bruce Weber, Kansas State, 150-89, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 Elite 8
5) Tom Crean, Georgia, 11-21 (previously took Indiana to 3 Sweet 16s and Marquette to Final Four)
6) Danny Manning, Wake Forest, 65-93, 1 NCAA appearance, largely considered a bad hire
7) Nathan Davis, Bucknell, 89-45, 2 NCAA appearances
8) Jeff Jones, Old Dominion, 140-67, 1 NCAA appearance
9) Mark Montgomery, NIU, 105-150
10) Dennis Felton, Cleveland State, 22-44
11) Herb Sendek, Santa Clara, 44-51
12) Ken Stallings, Pittsburgh, 24-41, bad hire
13) Kim Anderson, Missouri, 27-68, bad hire

Please note that this all began when I defended Cal against the following claim: a "Instead, Cal received a slapdash, hurried process that was dominated by a search agency with ulterior motives."

I simply asked for evidence that the Search Firm had ulterior motives. Part of that counter was information on Ted Turner's record. Completely omitted was actual information about the search firm's record. That information is far more relevant than Turner's record as an AD, especially in light of the fact that Dave Odom and Miller specialize in basketball searches. There are a lot of lawyers on this sight. They are biased; they argue and seldom present the entire picture.

Anyway, I understand the knock on Fox. The evidence indicates that he will likely not lead us to Pac 12 Championships. He has a medium floor and a medium ceiling. Many prefer a coach with a low floor and high ceiling.

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OaktownBear said:

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I have much less issue with using a firm for grunt work. I have an issue with using them to the extent Knowlton did.

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OaktownBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Todd Turner has been an Athletic Director at schools in 4 of the 6 original BCS Conferences. He has built a successful Coaching Search Firm, which he founded in 2010. He employs Dave Odom and Jim Miller for basketball related searches. Jim Miller was the Athletic Director at Richmond from 2000 until 2012. He played college basketball at Old Dominion. He hired Chris Mooney, who took Richmond to the Sweet 16. He retired from Richmond in 2014. Dave Odom coached Division One basketball for 22 years. His career record is 406-278. His teams went to the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and won 3 NIT Championships. He was ACC Coach of the Year three times and SEC Coach of the Year once. He has contacts with most NCAA Division 1 coaches.

Focusing on what CSA has accomplished in college basketball (as opposed to Todd Turner's record from decades prior to him starting a search firm), here are the records of CSA's hires for their new team. These records include 20 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16's, 1 Elite 8, and 1 Final Four.

1) Rick Barnes, Tennessee 88-50; 2 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
2) Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech, 100-69, 3 NCAA appearances, 2019 Sweet 16
3) Len Kruger, Oklahoma, 160-105, 6 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Final Four
4) Bruce Weber, Kansas State, 150-89, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 Elite 8
5) Tom Crean, Georgia, 11-21 (previously took Indiana to 3 Sweet 16s and Marquette to Final Four)
6) Danny Manning, Wake Forest, 65-93, 1 NCAA appearance, largely considered a bad hire
7) Nathan Davis, Bucknell, 89-45, 2 NCAA appearances
8) Jeff Jones, Old Dominion, 140-67, 1 NCAA appearance
9) Mark Montgomery, NIU, 105-150
10) Dennis Felton, Cleveland State, 22-44
11) Herb Sendek, Santa Clara, 44-51
12) Ken Stallings, Pittsburgh, 24-41, bad hire
13) Kim Anderson, Missouri, 27-68, bad hire

Please note that this all began when I defended Cal against the following claim: a "Instead, Cal received a slapdash, hurried process that was dominated by a search agency with ulterior motives."

I simply asked for evidence that the Search Firm had ulterior motives. Part of that counter was information on Ted Turner's record. Completely omitted was actual information about the search firm's record. That information is far more relevant than Turner's record as an AD, especially in light of the fact that Dave Odom and Miller specialize in basketball searches. There are a lot of lawyers on this sight. They are biased; they argue and seldom present the entire picture.

Anyway, I understand the knock on Fox. The evidence indicates that he will likely not lead us to Pac 12 Championships. He has a medium floor and a medium ceiling. Many prefer a coach with a low floor and high ceiling.

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1. That is not a complete list and it's skewed toward the positive. I assume because the first 11 looks like it is taken from their marketing list on their website as it is identical with the exception of Mark Fox not being included. Even then, it isn't that great.

2. It is very hard to get a complete list because nobody tracks it except the firm. As would be expected they don't tout their failures. They do not list any coach that has been fired. Without a complete list, it is hard to know what to make of their hit rate.

3. Even with a complete list, it is hard to know how much the responsibility they had in any given hire as AD's use them differently. For some they are just basically go betweens. (which is what we've been assured search firms did for Cal until Knowlton decided to tell the media that he sat on his ass and let the firm do everything). I have much less issue with using a firm for grunt work. I have an issue with using them to the extent Knowlton did. I looked at Turner's record because it is complete and because as an AD he had full responsibility for the hires which is about as close as you could get to what Knowlton used the firm for.

4. I would note that 2 of the placements on your list are coaches with career losing conference records who Turner had a relationship with having hired them as an AD. And both continued to lose. I can't demonstrate ulterior motives, but that certainly gives the appearance of conflict of interest and is very troubling.

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