FuzzyWuzzy said:
SFCityBear said:
BearNakedLadies said:
SFCityBear said:
FuzzyWuzzy said:
SFCityBear said:
south bender said:
SFCityBear said:
he is still the best freshman big man I've seen at Cal.
How about Shareef?
I think that both were about the same height.
Rabb was supposedly 2" taller. I always thought of Shareef as a three, with that frame and skill set.
Funny I remember Shareef as a low block, back to the basket guy. Also je guarded the 4 or 5. Did.Not.Miss inside 10 feet.
You are right as well. Maybe it is a matter of semantics. I think of him as a three, because he was finesse player.
Maybe it is a matter of you not admitting when you're wrong.
Maybe it is a matter of you not willing to allow someone to have a little different opinion. I am talking about type of frame and style of play, finesse, vs bulk, muscle, strength and brawn of players like Williams, Madsen, Powe, and yes, Ivan Rabb. I remember Kareem getting hurt for a game in the NBA finals, and Magic Johnson played center, with his back to the basket. He played the position with finesse, like a Shareef, and not by bullying his way to the rim. He scored 40 points, and it was a thing of beauty. You put a slightly thinner or somewhat smaller player with great fundamental skills inside with his back to the basket, using footwork and feints to get position, and he can score all day on many of the bigger stronger, but often slower big men who usually play near the basket. Magic had a hook shot, which made it even easier for him to play the 5. I am not talking about what position Shareef played, which is what Fuzzy and your are talking about, apparently. I did not say.Shareef was a 3. Anyone who would say that does not know much about Shareef and his career. Shareef played the 4, and I never said he didn't. I said "I think of him LIKE a three" in that he brings fundamental skills of a thinner or shorter player and is quicker with better moves, that can get him open shots against bigger stronger players. We all have our own way of looking at the game. IMO both views are valid.
Geez man. The conversation was about the best frosh big man at Cal and you tried to argue that Shareef was not a better frosh big than Ivan because he is not a big. Is it so bad to admit you forgot about Shareef (and Leon)?
Magic scored 42 in that game, by the way.
Geez man yourself. Where did I ever argue or state that Shareef was not a big? With all due respect, a little reading comprehension is in order. He played power forward when Yogi was the center, and he played center when Fowlkes or Gonzalez was the PF at Cal.
I concede your points about how good Shareef was and I said so already. But he was not a traditional front line low block power forward. He was a skilled low block scorer, but he set up on the perimeter like a three, and was highly skilled at getting to the low block from there. When Cal came down the floor, Shareef did not usually set up on the low block. If you remember, Bozeman had him set up on the left sideline, or left corner, perhaps to draw his man, who was also a power forward, away from the basket. When they passed Shareef the ball, Bozeman would often have the other four Cal players run to the right sideline, to set up an isolation play for Shareef, one-on-one against his lone defender, while the other defenders were too far away to help double team Shareef. If Shareef was up against a slower defender, he would slash right by him to the basket. Sometimes he would shoot a three. But most of the time, Shareef was up against a good defender, and in those cases, Shareef would turn his back to the basket, and back his defender into the low block, which was about 15 feet away, back and forth yo-yoing his dribble gaining a few inches with each bounce of the ball. Finally, when he felt he was so close he couldn't miss, he turned and shot, and made the shot most of the time. That is my memory of Shareef and Cal in 1996. I don't know if NBA coaches used Shareef in the same way, because I never saw him play an NBA game. I could be wrong, but that is how I remember Shareef playing in 1996.
That team was a good team, finishing 17-11 in 4th place in the PAC10, but was easily beaten in the first round of the NCAA. Contrast that with the following year 1996-97, when Ben Braun took over the team with many of the same players, minus Shareef, who had left for the NBA draft. That team went 23-9, finished 3rd in the PAC10, knocked off both Princeton and #20 Villanova in the NCAA, before losing in the Sweet 16 to North Carolina (and who knows how far they could have gone, if Ed Gray hadn't gotten hurt?)
I would argue that the '97 team was better than the '96 team, and one of the reasons was they did not use isolation plays as much as Bozeman used them, and the primary guy he used for them was Shareef. The '97 team played much better team ball than the '96 team. In 1996 with Bozeman and Shareef, the Bears were 203rd out of 306 teams in assists, 165th in made field goals. They made 51% of their field goals from assist passes. In 1997, the Bears were 27th out of 306 teams in assists, and 27th in made field goals. They made 60% of their field goals from assist passes.
There are other reasons for the remarkable difference besides the departure of Shareef. Fowlkes, Gardner, and Bozeman also left. McGruder became the point guard, beating out McQueen. Al Grigsby returned to become a starter, when he had only been able to play 4 games in 1996. Marks was able to play a little more. I am a bigger fan of team play than I am of individual stars, because I was always taught that good teams could beat a team that had one or two stars, and so when I see our Bears play what Ducky23 calls "iso ball", I marvel at the talent, but inside my heart, I know a team with a star isolated going one-on-one or one-on-two, is not likely going to win championships, it is 5 players working together to make each other better, which is what the game is all about, for me, at least.
As for Powe, he was a traditional low-block big, who always set up near the basket, and rarely ventured far from the hoop. A very powerful player, very different from Shareef. One thing he and Shareef had in common was their coaches probably wanted them both to score when they got the ball, no matter who was guarding them, and not spend time looking for open teammates. Another thing they both had in common was neither one's teams when they were freshmen had successful seasons, considering the talented teammates they both had. A lot of that is due to the coaching, and not the fault of the individual players.
Thanks for the correction on Magic's 42 points.
SFCityBear
