Here's a simple idea..Lose the anthem before every sporting event. Everyone knows what country is holding the event. The anthem today is so divisive that it threatens to ruin if not strain relationships among owners, managers, players and fans alike. Social solidarity at sporting events in the past have given owners, coaches, players and fans alike the chance to have something in common just before the game , and, for that, we have all been grateful. Today, 50% of the participants kneel--50% stand, ---pretty soon, 50% of the fans in the stands will be kneeling while the other v50% stand. Honestly, is there anyone who thinks this is a healthy situation??"a nation divided cannot stand." divided owners, coachers, players and fans cannot stand either---When we go to work in the morning, the anthem is not played just before we sit at our desk or begin to engage in whatever work we are assigned. if and when our nation returns to some semblance of normality and acceptance, then, and only then, should we consider restoring the Anthem. Even then, if I were King, I would ban it ----just play the *************damn game!!!!!!
national anthem
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Last: 2 yr ago by wifeisafurd
serves no purpose anyway -- amen
I have already stated as much. No other country does this at their sporting events.
Before all of this kneeling stuff started I was watching Cal play UCLA at Staples in the Pac-12 Tournament. My girlfriend and I were in the middle of a conversation when they started the anthem. I put my hand over my heart and looked to the flag but she and I were still (quietly and infrequently) whispering. This guy with a UCLA shirt on in the row below me turns around and tells me (LOUDLY) he's going to kick my ass because I am being disrespectful. I told him what to do with himself and he (probably drunk) started to climb up into my row before a bunch of people intervened.
I think that's patently ridiculous, especially because people all around us were talking, too. Someone wants to fight me because the anthem is playing? For all he knows I'm a foreigner or hard of hearing or something. I lost a lot of respect for our baby bears just based on that ******.
I might have expected that from a USC fan, but from a UCLA fan it was a surprise.
I actually sort of like hearing it, because the singers who perform it obviously put a lot of work into it (usually) but not if it is going to turn us against each other.
I, too, have long felt (since well before Kaepernik started kneeling) playing the anthem at sporting events is unnecessary. The official protocol is to stand, either silently or singing the words (which many don't even know) during the playing. At every event I've ever observed, only some correctly honor the anthem while players mill about nervously, fans are still filing to their seats or buying beer/food at concession stands or talking to one another. The casual level of disrespect is a national embarrassment.dimitrig said:
I have already stated as much. No other country does this at their sporting events.
Before all of this kneeling stuff started I was watching Cal play UCLA at Staples in the Pac-12 Tournament. My girlfriend and I were in the middle of a conversation when they started the anthem. I put my hand over my heart and looked to the flag but she and I were still (quietly and infrequently) whispering. This guy with a UCLA shirt on in the row below me turns around and tells me (LOUDLY) he's going to kick my ass because I am being disrespectful. I told him what to do with himself and he (probably drunk) started to climb up into my row before a bunch of people intervened.
I think that's patently ridiculous, especially because people all around us were talking, too. Someone wants to fight me because the anthem is playing? For all he knows I'm a foreigner or hard of hearing or something. I lost a lot of respect for our baby bears just based on that ******.
I might have expected that from a USC fan, but from a UCLA fan it was a surprise.
I actually sort of like hearing it, because the singers who perform it obviously put a lot of work into it (usually) but not if it is going to turn us against each other.
I am on board with this as well. Although my politics are progressive, as an older guy when I watch sports I just want to watch sports. No national anthem of any kind would be just fine, and I don't feel removing it would be disrespectful. In addition it will remove a lot of hostility from both ends of the political spectrum because there would be nothing to discuss.
Same with the "message on the uniform" thing, like what's going on with the WNBA team. I support BLM and I support the American flag, but how about letting the teams play with just their team and logo stuff and leaving EVERYTHING ELSE off.
I support athletes' rights to express their political views in public and on social media, but when a game is actually being played lets leave ALL the politics behind and let it just be SPORTS. I feel that leaving politics out of the actual event is in a way bringing us all together.
Same with the "message on the uniform" thing, like what's going on with the WNBA team. I support BLM and I support the American flag, but how about letting the teams play with just their team and logo stuff and leaving EVERYTHING ELSE off.
I support athletes' rights to express their political views in public and on social media, but when a game is actually being played lets leave ALL the politics behind and let it just be SPORTS. I feel that leaving politics out of the actual event is in a way bringing us all together.
I'm going to the doctor for a check up. After 2,125 posts, helltopay1 posted a comment I agree with.
Kurtenbach: It's the anthem, it's America, do as you please. East Bay Times
https://www.mercurynews.com/kurtenbach-a-different-view-on-the-national-anthem-controversy
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/07/21/kurtenbach-a-different-view-on-the-national-anthem-controversy/amp/
Kurtenbach: It's the anthem, it's America, do as you please. East Bay Times
https://www.mercurynews.com/kurtenbach-a-different-view-on-the-national-anthem-controversy
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/07/21/kurtenbach-a-different-view-on-the-national-anthem-controversy/amp/
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
I can't stand it when some singer decides to put their own stylings into it--especially all of the warbling up and down. I took to copying the warbling just a nanosecond behind the singer (I'm pretty good at it) just to have fun with it, but Mrs. MSaviolives gets embarrassed so I stopped. Give me Whitney Houston's straight version every time.dimitrig said:
I have already stated as much. No other country does this at their sporting events.
Before all of this kneeling stuff started I was watching Cal play UCLA at Staples in the Pac-12 Tournament. My girlfriend and I were in the middle of a conversation when they started the anthem. I put my hand over my heart and looked to the flag but she and I were still (quietly and infrequently) whispering. This guy with a UCLA shirt on in the row below me turns around and tells me (LOUDLY) he's going to kick my ass because I am being disrespectful. I told him what to do with himself and he (probably drunk) started to climb up into my row before a bunch of people intervened.
I think that's patently ridiculous, especially because people all around us were talking, too. Someone wants to fight me because the anthem is playing? For all he knows I'm a foreigner or hard of hearing or something. I lost a lot of respect for our baby bears just based on that ******.
I might have expected that from a USC fan, but from a UCLA fan it was a surprise.
I actually sort of like hearing it, because the singers who perform it obviously put a lot of work into it (usually) but not if it is going to turn us against each other.
Want to know my theory on Colin? I think his "kneeling" was motivated by two factors never previously discussed as far as I know: I read where he had been radicalized by a muslim marxist he met on the cal campus. in addition, the Marxist then hooked him up with a woman of similar persuasions. In addition, and, this is I believe the motivation which drove his unprecedented action, he was suddenly second-string and no longer in the limelight--I believe he longed for the limelight again so badly, and had been radiicalized so thoroughly that he took the mind-boggling action : In addiction, I read where he had been spoiled by his adoptive parents, and, like many spoiled kids, he believed the world revolved around him. (addiction should read addition) soon, the statue of Lincoln will be replaced by the statue of this half-baked pampered NFL has-been. Only in America.
Oh well, I guess we'll see another 2,125 posts like this before helltopay1 and Bearister agree again.helltopay1 said:
Want to know my theory on Colin? ...
Dear MSolives: Touche. There are two things in this world which tempt me to put a noose around my neck: Nancy Pelosi and egotistical self-singers who butcher the Anthem beyond all recognition. These days, when a solo singer starts the Anthem, you can spend 30 minutes in the bathroom, exit the bathroom, and, the damn singer still hasn't finished the damn song. I finally notified the Cal AD, and said, that singers need to be notified in advance to stop butchering the song. Voila!!!!!!the AD obviously agreed with me, because, from then on, either the Anthewm was not sung by an individual performer or it was sung by a chorus. BTW, I much prefer America the beautiful than the Anthem. gotta love Nancy. I know her husband. We played on the same CYO team years ago--her Dad was a mob informer all his public life, and, here she is, telling we poor slobs how to act, think and feel. Only in America.
Dear Stu: Colin is so half-baked that he probably spells American history Umerikan hysterie.
stu said:Oh well, I guess we'll see another 2,125 posts like this before helltopay1 and Bearister agree again.helltopay1 said:
Want to know my theory on Colin? ...
Thank God he gyroscoped back to his normal. I was a feared he had either been hacked or someone had the poor bugger at gunpoint instructing him what to type. I cancelled my doctor's appointment.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Just sticking to the facts here. Colin was a 4.0 student in High School and at Nevada. He is no dummy or person seeking attention as has been reported here. I think that he deserves all the praise that has been sent his way as the initiator of what has become Black Lives Matter.
Three things:helltopay1 said:
Here's a simple idea..Lose the anthem before every sporting event. Everyone knows what country is holding the event. The anthem today is so divisive that it threatens to ruin if not strain relationships among owners, managers, players and fans alike. Social solidarity at sporting events in the past have given owners, coaches, players and fans alike the chance to have something in common just before the game , and, for that, we have all been grateful. Today, 50% of the participants kneel--50% stand, ---pretty soon, 50% of the fans in the stands will be kneeling while the other v50% stand. Honestly, is there anyone who thinks this is a healthy situation??"a nation divided cannot stand." divided owners, coachers, players and fans cannot stand either---When we go to work in the morning, the anthem is not played just before we sit at our desk or begin to engage in whatever work we are assigned. if and when our nation returns to some semblance of normality and acceptance, then, and only then, should we consider restoring the Anthem. Even then, if I were King, I would ban it ----just play the *************damn game!!!!!!
1. Couldn't agree more with the anthem/sporting events disconnect. Just play the ****ing game. I get the NFL pseudo-patriotism, the Amry is paying them something like $100Million a year to do so. But Cal Bball is getting squat.
2. As anthems go, the Star Spangled banner is a C+ at best (and I'm being generous). America the Beautiful is a much better piece. Could probably come up with a dozen others, if I put some effort into it.
3. More Us. Less Them.
1. I hate it when singers take it too slow. There's a "correct" tempo.
2. Can't stand the stylized it's-all-about-me versions, especially when it's a kid singing it.
3. If it IS continued to be played at Cal games, the Cal Band/Straw Hat Band should play it most all of the time.
Now let's get controversial (and remember, I'm not a big anthem guy in the first place):
a. I sorta like the Furd "JFK" version (starting out with the solo trumpet). Cal fans, don't sing during that: It's classless. And lately, they've been artificially amplifying the trumpet. Forget that: Weak! I liked it when it got so quiet that you could hear the trumpet, unmiked, in a stadium of 80,000+.
b. Weak, weak WEAK to change / "Calify" the lyrics! ( "... rockets' blue glare", etc.). That is so lame. It's the NATIONAL freaking anthem, for crying out loud! Look, I don't like it played at all these sporting events ANYWAY, but if you're going to do it, don't change the lyrics to be cute. Embarrassing. Should we replace the red in the American flag with gold? (Don't answer that.)
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
1) Why play the anthem at all? Oddly enough I think most of us agree on this point.
2) If we must play the anthem why not let the Straw Hat band do it? Or, as I have seen on rare occasions, let one of the athletes sing it?
3) Why is the anthem all about death and destruction? We could do better.
2) If we must play the anthem why not let the Straw Hat band do it? Or, as I have seen on rare occasions, let one of the athletes sing it?
3) Why is the anthem all about death and destruction? We could do better.
Don't know about no longer playing it. Where else would we hear it (a song to honor our country)? It's not the best reflection on us / our country, that so many don't sing it proudly. Probably it's significance has been devalued per too often being played. So, maybe it'd be more meaningful if say only Pro Sports & only on Sunday's.
As far as kneeling goes, baseball has few American Blacks these days, but basketball & football, expect to see a whole lot of kneeling. Personally I'm fine with those kneeling, as the right for peaceful individual protest is completely American. Mostly wish it hadn't been made so political (a full on divisive us against them thing).
As far as kneeling goes, baseball has few American Blacks these days, but basketball & football, expect to see a whole lot of kneeling. Personally I'm fine with those kneeling, as the right for peaceful individual protest is completely American. Mostly wish it hadn't been made so political (a full on divisive us against them thing).
If only I could find a video of Nancy Pelosi singing the Anthem slowly and with styling warbles. Thank you for your message to the AD. I agree that we just don't need the Anthem at all at sporting events, but if we do it at Cal games it should be the band who does it.helltopay1 said:
Dear MSolives: Touche. There are two things in this world which tempt me to put a noose around my neck: Nancy Pelosi and egotistical self-singers who butcher the Anthem beyond all recognition. These days, when a solo singer starts the Anthem, you can spend 30 minutes in the bathroom, exit the bathroom, and, the damn singer still hasn't finished the damn song. I finally notified the Cal AD, and said, that singers need to be notified in advance to stop butchering the song. Voila!!!!!!the AD obviously agreed with me, because, from then on, either the Anthewm was not sung by an individual performer or it was sung by a chorus. BTW, I much prefer America the beautiful than the Anthem. gotta love Nancy. I know her husband. We played on the same CYO team years ago--her Dad was a mob informer all his public life, and, here she is, telling we poor slobs how to act, think and feel. Only in America.
bearister said:
I'm going to the doctor for a check up. After 2,125 posts, helltopay1 posted a comment I agree with.
famous quotations: "Even a broken H2Px is right twice a day"
the anthem?? ever since LBJ's bridge too far presidency, sorry but during the compulsory
pregame dirge this veteran reflects on dark times until the lame ritual is over.
-------
As the late Chromical editorial columnist Art Hoppe wrote (many times a month) paraphrased best i can "in the NNth year of our lightning campaign to wipe out the dread Vietnarian gorillas.."
muting ~250 handles, turnaround is fair play
tthompson993 said:
Just sticking to the facts here. Colin was a 4.0 student in High School and at Nevada. He is no dummy or person seeking attention as has been reported here. I think that he deserves all the praise that has been sent his way as the initiator of what has become Black Lives Matter.
Also, it is not really possible to be both a Marxist and a Muslim.
However, it is also not really possible to be both a Christian and an Ayn Rand devotee but most who are the later also claim to be the former....
agree on most points:
The anthem should ONLY be played at international events like the Olympics
It's not a very good song (I can't think of another country's anthem that glorifies war).
If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
The anthem should ONLY be played at international events like the Olympics
It's not a very good song (I can't think of another country's anthem that glorifies war).
If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
Solution: Play the Canadian National Anthem -- "O Canada".
Go Kap' and thrive!
Go Kap' and thrive!
How disrespectful. Maybe you should have apologized to the ucla lout . . . and then kicked his ass after the anthem was finished.
Here is a solution. Hire Kaepernick as the "designated kneeler". He could kneel by himself while giving the middle finger salute. I realize this sounds a bit ridiculous. But this has become a ridiculous country so this would fit right in.
I have to admit I am having trouble figuring out how I fit into the "nationlal guilt". My father came from Sicily. They had Mafia but no slaves. On my mother's side her grandfather was a deserter from the Prussian army. Before Hitler and the Nazis. I can't even lay claim to a little anti-semitism. It is becoming really difficult to be a racist, homophobe in this country.
I have to admit I am having trouble figuring out how I fit into the "nationlal guilt". My father came from Sicily. They had Mafia but no slaves. On my mother's side her grandfather was a deserter from the Prussian army. Before Hitler and the Nazis. I can't even lay claim to a little anti-semitism. It is becoming really difficult to be a racist, homophobe in this country.
Sicily. Read Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa "The Leopard" (1963). During the time of Garibaldi and the unification aka "Risorgimento".caltagjohnson said:
Here is a solution. Hire Kaepernick as the "designated kneeler". He could kneel by himself while giving the middle finger salute. I realize this sounds a bit ridiculous. But this has become a ridiculous country so this would fit right in.
I have to admit I am having trouble figuring out how I fit into the "nationlal guilt". My father came from Sicily. They had Mafia but no slaves. On my mother's side her grandfather was a deserter from the Prussian army. Before Hitler and the Nazis. I can't even lay claim to a little anti-semitism. It is becoming really difficult to be a racist, homophobe in this country.
"For everything to stay the same, everything must change..."
why wait for games.. jimi lives..UrsaMajor said:
> If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
muting ~250 handles, turnaround is fair play
Don't disagree that it should only be played at international sporting events.UrsaMajor said:
agree on most points:
The anthem should ONLY be played at international events like the Olympics
It's not a very good song (I can't think of another country's anthem that glorifies war).
If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
It is not a great tune, but I don't agree it is not a very good song. It is an incredibly meaningful song if people will learn its meaning. It is not a glorification of war. It is about a pivotal moment in our history where our country was being attacked and its very existence was at stake. It is a metaphor. It is not about the battle. It is about the moment that the continued existence of the republic and our freedom is proved. Sitting in the harbor, knowing the country was about to suffer a ferocious attack, as night falls the American flag is flying and disappears from view. He has to contemplate whether he will ever see that flag fly again. The lines about rockets and bombs are not glorifying war. They are referring to the British rockets and bombs. The only point of the rockets and bombs is that they light up the sky giving him brief glimpses during the battle that the flag still flies and we are still free. By the dawn, he knows the battle is over, but he does not know the outcome. The light of dawn shows him the flag and he knows we are still free. None of the song is about the fight. It is all about our continued liberty being proved to him by the existence of the flag. The song is about freedom. To the extent later stanzas that we do not sing are "about war", to the contrary they are about defending ourselves against war when we must to protect our freedom from invaders who attack it. it is not glorifying war at all but villifying those that would wage war to take our freedom.
We do a poor job of teaching the War of 1812. The fact that it doesn't seem to be a key moment in our history is exactly what is key about it. Had things gone a different way, it would have been a very key moment, though it would have been British history, not American history.
There was much talk when I was younger about replacing the Star Spangled Banner with America the Beautiful. I wholeheartedly disagreed. America the Beautiful is a very nice song. It is about landscape. The Star Spangled Banner is about something. It is about freedom and how it will always stand as long as we are willing to defend it physically or metaphorically. Frankly, it is about who we are. The "its a song about war" bit is a result of a too cursory interpretation of the actual meaning of the words.
As for not thinking of another country's anthem glorifying war, um...lots of them do. Here is a translation of France's national anthem (I sang the first part every day in my French language classes in 7th and 8th grade - in French of course):
Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us, tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised, (repeat)
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!
To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!
What does this horde of slaves,
Of traitors and conspiring kings want?
For whom have these vile chains,
These irons, been long prepared? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What furious action it must arouse!
It is to us they dare plan
A return to the old slavery!
To arms, citizens...
What! Foreign cohorts
Would make the law in our homes!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Great God! By chained hands
Our brows would yield under the yoke!
Vile despots would themselves become
The masters of our destinies!
To arms, citizens...
Tremble, tyrants and you traitors
The shame of all parties,
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will finally receive their prize! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to combat you,
If they fall, our young heroes,
Will be produced anew from the ground,
Ready to fight against you!
To arms, citizens...
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare those sorry victims,
For regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But these bloodthirsty despots,
These accomplices of Bouill,
All these tigers who mercilessly
Tear apart their mother's breast!
To arms, citizens...
Sacred love of the Fatherland,
Lead, support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished Liberty,
Fight with thy defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags may victory
Hurry to thy manly accents,
So that thy expiring enemies
See thy triumph and our glory!
To arms, citizens...
Good point about the Marseillaise; I had been thinking about the UK, Canada, etc.OaktownBear said:Don't disagree that it should only be played at international sporting events.UrsaMajor said:
agree on most points:
The anthem should ONLY be played at international events like the Olympics
It's not a very good song (I can't think of another country's anthem that glorifies war).
If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
It is not a great tune, but I don't agree it is not a very good song. It is an incredibly meaningful song if people will learn its meaning. It is not a glorification of war. It is about a pivotal moment in our history where our country was being attacked and its very existence was at stake. It is a metaphor. It is not about the battle. It is about the moment that the continued existence of the republic and our freedom is proved. Sitting in the harbor, knowing the country was about to suffer a ferocious attack, as night falls the American flag is flying and disappears from view. He has to contemplate whether he will ever see that flag fly again. The lines about rockets and bombs are not glorifying war. They are referring to the British rockets and bombs. The only point of the rockets and bombs is that they light up the sky giving him brief glimpses during the battle that the flag still flies and we are still free. By the dawn, he knows the battle is over, but he does not know the outcome. The light of dawn shows him the flag and he knows we are still free. None of the song is about the fight. It is all about our continued liberty being proved to him by the existence of the flag. The song is about freedom. To the extent later stanzas that we do not sing are "about war", to the contrary they are about defending ourselves against war when we must to protect our freedom from invaders who attack it. it is not glorifying war at all but villifying those that would wage war to take our freedom.
We do a poor job of teaching the War of 1812. The fact that it doesn't seem to be a key moment in our history is exactly what is key about it. Had things gone a different way, it would have been a very key moment, though it would have been British history, not American history.
There was much talk when I was younger about replacing the Star Spangled Banner with America the Beautiful. I wholeheartedly disagreed. America the Beautiful is a very nice song. It is about landscape. The Star Spangled Banner is about something. It is about freedom and how it will always stand as long as we are willing to defend it physically or metaphorically. Frankly, it is about who we are. The "its a song about war" bit is a result of a too cursory interpretation of the actual meaning of the words.
As for not thinking of another country's anthem glorifying war, um...lots of them do. Here is a translation of France's national anthem (I sang the first part every day in my French language classes in 7th and 8th grade - in French of course):
Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us, tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised, (repeat)
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!
To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!
What does this horde of slaves,
Of traitors and conspiring kings want?
For whom have these vile chains,
These irons, been long prepared? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What furious action it must arouse!
It is to us they dare plan
A return to the old slavery!
To arms, citizens...
What! Foreign cohorts
Would make the law in our homes!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Great God! By chained hands
Our brows would yield under the yoke!
Vile despots would themselves become
The masters of our destinies!
To arms, citizens...
Tremble, tyrants and you traitors
The shame of all parties,
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will finally receive their prize! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to combat you,
If they fall, our young heroes,
Will be produced anew from the ground,
Ready to fight against you!
To arms, citizens...
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare those sorry victims,
For regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But these bloodthirsty despots,
These accomplices of Bouill,
All these tigers who mercilessly
Tear apart their mother's breast!
To arms, citizens...
Sacred love of the Fatherland,
Lead, support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished Liberty,
Fight with thy defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags may victory
Hurry to thy manly accents,
So that thy expiring enemies
See thy triumph and our glory!
To arms, citizens...
As for the War of 1812, I agree fully that it makes no sense that it is overlooked. I think one reason is that until Vietnam, it was the only war we didn't win outright (our one great victory was New Orleans and that was technically after the war was over).
As for the Star Spangle Banner--can't abide by the stanza about slaves.
...or were, for some.OaktownBear said:
There was much talk when I was younger about replacing the Star Spangled Banner with America the Beautiful. I wholeheartedly disagreed. America the Beautiful is a very nice song. It is about landscape. The Star Spangled Banner is about something. It is about freedom and how it will always stand as long as we are willing to defend it physically or metaphorically. Frankly, it is about who we are. The "its a song about war" bit is a result of a too cursory interpretation of the actual meaning of the words.
Some historians call the War of 1812 the second war of independence. Another thing the War of 1812 did was shock the British navy by sinking their ships. Both the fictional Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin series of books on the British navy during the Napoleonic War era give reference to this fact.
If you are ever in Boston, it is interesting to tour the USS Constitution, aka Old Ironsides, the only still active Navy ship from that time (it is still afloat)!
Go Navy, Go Bears
If you are ever in Boston, it is interesting to tour the USS Constitution, aka Old Ironsides, the only still active Navy ship from that time (it is still afloat)!
Go Navy, Go Bears
The stanza "about slaves" hasn't been part of the Star Spangled Banner for 80 years. To say it is about slaves is an overstatement and it was largely exaggerated by those with an agenda during the initial protest, like a long since removed section of the song that no one sings or knows provided more justification for kneeling when the kneeling had nothing to do with the song.UrsaMajor said:Good point about the Marseillaise; I had been thinking about the UK, Canada, etc.OaktownBear said:Don't disagree that it should only be played at international sporting events.UrsaMajor said:
agree on most points:
The anthem should ONLY be played at international events like the Olympics
It's not a very good song (I can't think of another country's anthem that glorifies war).
If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
It is not a great tune, but I don't agree it is not a very good song. It is an incredibly meaningful song if people will learn its meaning. It is not a glorification of war. It is about a pivotal moment in our history where our country was being attacked and its very existence was at stake. It is a metaphor. It is not about the battle. It is about the moment that the continued existence of the republic and our freedom is proved. Sitting in the harbor, knowing the country was about to suffer a ferocious attack, as night falls the American flag is flying and disappears from view. He has to contemplate whether he will ever see that flag fly again. The lines about rockets and bombs are not glorifying war. They are referring to the British rockets and bombs. The only point of the rockets and bombs is that they light up the sky giving him brief glimpses during the battle that the flag still flies and we are still free. By the dawn, he knows the battle is over, but he does not know the outcome. The light of dawn shows him the flag and he knows we are still free. None of the song is about the fight. It is all about our continued liberty being proved to him by the existence of the flag. The song is about freedom. To the extent later stanzas that we do not sing are "about war", to the contrary they are about defending ourselves against war when we must to protect our freedom from invaders who attack it. it is not glorifying war at all but villifying those that would wage war to take our freedom.
We do a poor job of teaching the War of 1812. The fact that it doesn't seem to be a key moment in our history is exactly what is key about it. Had things gone a different way, it would have been a very key moment, though it would have been British history, not American history.
There was much talk when I was younger about replacing the Star Spangled Banner with America the Beautiful. I wholeheartedly disagreed. America the Beautiful is a very nice song. It is about landscape. The Star Spangled Banner is about something. It is about freedom and how it will always stand as long as we are willing to defend it physically or metaphorically. Frankly, it is about who we are. The "its a song about war" bit is a result of a too cursory interpretation of the actual meaning of the words.
As for not thinking of another country's anthem glorifying war, um...lots of them do. Here is a translation of France's national anthem (I sang the first part every day in my French language classes in 7th and 8th grade - in French of course):
Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us, tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised, (repeat)
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!
To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!
What does this horde of slaves,
Of traitors and conspiring kings want?
For whom have these vile chains,
These irons, been long prepared? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What furious action it must arouse!
It is to us they dare plan
A return to the old slavery!
To arms, citizens...
What! Foreign cohorts
Would make the law in our homes!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Great God! By chained hands
Our brows would yield under the yoke!
Vile despots would themselves become
The masters of our destinies!
To arms, citizens...
Tremble, tyrants and you traitors
The shame of all parties,
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will finally receive their prize! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to combat you,
If they fall, our young heroes,
Will be produced anew from the ground,
Ready to fight against you!
To arms, citizens...
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare those sorry victims,
For regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But these bloodthirsty despots,
These accomplices of Bouill,
All these tigers who mercilessly
Tear apart their mother's breast!
To arms, citizens...
Sacred love of the Fatherland,
Lead, support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished Liberty,
Fight with thy defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags may victory
Hurry to thy manly accents,
So that thy expiring enemies
See thy triumph and our glory!
To arms, citizens...
As for the War of 1812, I agree fully that it makes no sense that it is overlooked. I think one reason is that until Vietnam, it was the only war we didn't win outright (our one great victory was New Orleans and that was technically after the war was over).
As for the Star Spangle Banner--can't abide by the stanza about slaves.
The reference is to the British fighting with "hirelings" - paid British soldiers who fight for money and for the fruits of pillaging - and "slaves" - American slaves who escaped and ran off to fight for the British in exchange for a promise of freedom. The stanza is mocking the British military vs. the American military of free men fighting for freedom. It is not commenting on slavery or slaves. It is commenting on British soldiers. The reference to slaves is certainly justifiably subject to criticism. Obviously they were fighting for their own individual freedom I'm fine with that criticism, but the criticism should be based on what the poem actually was about. That portion was about the British trying to take the freedom away from free men with a military made up of men who had no interest in the cause they were fighting for. The reference to slaves is primarily factual Like if the British had been fighting with sharks with lasers, he would have written the stanza about them rather than hirelings and slaves. It is not a defense of slavery. Though, Francis Scott Key was more than willing to defend slavery - he absolutely has a sordid past in that regard - the song is not about slavery.
As an aside, God Save the Queen gets problematic after the first stanza - scattering her enemies and all that. And frankly the first stanza is an obsequious expression of self imposed subjugation to a monarch.UrsaMajor said:Good point about the Marseillaise; I had been thinking about the UK, Canada, etc.OaktownBear said:Don't disagree that it should only be played at international sporting events.UrsaMajor said:
agree on most points:
The anthem should ONLY be played at international events like the Olympics
It's not a very good song (I can't think of another country's anthem that glorifies war).
If it has to be played, I vote for Jimi Hendrix's version.
It is not a great tune, but I don't agree it is not a very good song. It is an incredibly meaningful song if people will learn its meaning. It is not a glorification of war. It is about a pivotal moment in our history where our country was being attacked and its very existence was at stake. It is a metaphor. It is not about the battle. It is about the moment that the continued existence of the republic and our freedom is proved. Sitting in the harbor, knowing the country was about to suffer a ferocious attack, as night falls the American flag is flying and disappears from view. He has to contemplate whether he will ever see that flag fly again. The lines about rockets and bombs are not glorifying war. They are referring to the British rockets and bombs. The only point of the rockets and bombs is that they light up the sky giving him brief glimpses during the battle that the flag still flies and we are still free. By the dawn, he knows the battle is over, but he does not know the outcome. The light of dawn shows him the flag and he knows we are still free. None of the song is about the fight. It is all about our continued liberty being proved to him by the existence of the flag. The song is about freedom. To the extent later stanzas that we do not sing are "about war", to the contrary they are about defending ourselves against war when we must to protect our freedom from invaders who attack it. it is not glorifying war at all but villifying those that would wage war to take our freedom.
We do a poor job of teaching the War of 1812. The fact that it doesn't seem to be a key moment in our history is exactly what is key about it. Had things gone a different way, it would have been a very key moment, though it would have been British history, not American history.
There was much talk when I was younger about replacing the Star Spangled Banner with America the Beautiful. I wholeheartedly disagreed. America the Beautiful is a very nice song. It is about landscape. The Star Spangled Banner is about something. It is about freedom and how it will always stand as long as we are willing to defend it physically or metaphorically. Frankly, it is about who we are. The "its a song about war" bit is a result of a too cursory interpretation of the actual meaning of the words.
As for not thinking of another country's anthem glorifying war, um...lots of them do. Here is a translation of France's national anthem (I sang the first part every day in my French language classes in 7th and 8th grade - in French of course):
Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us, tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised, (repeat)
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into your arms
To cut the throats of your sons, your women!
To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!
What does this horde of slaves,
Of traitors and conspiring kings want?
For whom have these vile chains,
These irons, been long prepared? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What furious action it must arouse!
It is to us they dare plan
A return to the old slavery!
To arms, citizens...
What! Foreign cohorts
Would make the law in our homes!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Great God! By chained hands
Our brows would yield under the yoke!
Vile despots would themselves become
The masters of our destinies!
To arms, citizens...
Tremble, tyrants and you traitors
The shame of all parties,
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will finally receive their prize! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to combat you,
If they fall, our young heroes,
Will be produced anew from the ground,
Ready to fight against you!
To arms, citizens...
Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare those sorry victims,
For regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But these bloodthirsty despots,
These accomplices of Bouill,
All these tigers who mercilessly
Tear apart their mother's breast!
To arms, citizens...
Sacred love of the Fatherland,
Lead, support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished Liberty,
Fight with thy defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags may victory
Hurry to thy manly accents,
So that thy expiring enemies
See thy triumph and our glory!
To arms, citizens...
As for the War of 1812, I agree fully that it makes no sense that it is overlooked. I think one reason is that until Vietnam, it was the only war we didn't win outright (our one great victory was New Orleans and that was technically after the war was over).
As for the Star Spangle Banner--can't abide by the stanza about slaves.
Then let's give the song to Scotland. They could use it now.Quote:
We do a poor job of teaching the War of 1812. The fact that it doesn't seem to be a key moment in our history is exactly what is key about it. Had things gone a different way, it would have been a very key moment, though it would have been British history, not American history.
caltagjohnson said:
Here is a solution. Hire Kaepernick as the "designated kneeler". He could kneel by himself while giving the middle finger salute. I realize this sounds a bit ridiculous. But this has become a ridiculous country so this would fit right in.
I have to admit I am having trouble figuring out how I fit into the "nationlal guilt". My father came from Sicily. They had Mafia but no slaves. On my mother's side her grandfather was a deserter from the Prussian army. Before Hitler and the Nazis. I can't even lay claim to a little anti-semitism. It is becoming really difficult to be a racist, homophobe in this country.
As an immigrant or someone born in this or any other country you are responsible for the debts that the country owes. You will have to pay taxes for a tax cut given 100 years ago, If your great-grandfather bought a WW1 War Bond (loaned money to the US) and it was never cashed in, you can redeem it. Current American tax payers will have to each contribute some tax to pay it off, whether they or their families were here for WWI.
There are other kinds of debts countries owe. If you move to Australia you will take on the debt that country owes to the descendants of the Aboriginal people whose land, lives and culture were taken. If you move to Germany and become a German citizen and Germany decides to make payments to Holocaust survivors or their descendants, then that is an obligation you take on as a German citizen.
America owes a debt to the descendants of Native Americans, Hawaiians, Chamorros and other native inhabitants whose land was taken by the US government or was permitted to be taken by others under US law. America owes a debt to the descendants of Africans who were brought here in chains and whose African American families were forced to work for hundreds of years without compensation and were brutalized, raped and denied basic human rights much less the rights of American citizenship all under the sanction of US law and enforced by the government's courts, militias, and army and then the police.
As Americans we all collectively owe those debts owed by our government. It doesn't matter if your family was here when it happened. It is not about personal guilt. America owes it so as an American you owe it.
If we are responsible for the debts our country owes from the past, as citizens in a democratic republic we are doubly responsible, individually and collectively, morally and financially for the current actions of our government and current debts it is incurring. In a government of the people, by the people and for the people, if the government or agents of the government is/are violating someone's civil rights we are morally culpable and financially liable collectively. It is our moral obligation to vote and speak out, protest unjust actions of the government.
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