Vaccine Redux - Vax up and go to Class

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Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed.
That was a pretty important advantage, given the situation we were in.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
Are we going to go in circles here? I have addressed all of the points above already as you have already asked them before, quite recently actually. The misinformation from the pro-mRNA advocates has created skeptics for not just covid vaccines, but a general mistrust of vaccines and science. It cuts both ways.

If Novavax were allowed to be marketed and promoted as a safer alternative to mRNA and made as available as Pfizer has been, yes, millions of Americans would get the Novavax shot. I cannot say the same for Inovio. Many Americans would be hesitant to be given a minor shock after a shot, unless they truly believed that Inovio's vaccine was much safer (which it is).
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
Are we going to go in circles here? I have addressed all of the points above already as you have already asked them before, quite recently actually. The misinformation from the pro-mRNA advocates has created skeptics for not just covid vaccines, but a general mistrust of vaccines and science. It cuts both ways.

If Novavax were allowed to be marketed and promoted as a safer alternative to mRNA and made as available as Pfizer has been, yes, millions of Americans would get the Novavax shot. I cannot say the same for Inovio. Many Americans would be hesitant to be given a minor shock after a shot, unless they truly believed that Inovio's vaccine was much safer (which it is).

This is laughable. There is not a single person on BearInsider who has indicated that they are waiting for a vaccine alternative like Novavax, despite your full year of propagandizing and spreading false and misleading negative information about the existing vaccines. If you can't even convince one person on BI to take Novavax, what in the world makes you think millions of Americans are just waiting for this new vaccine?
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
Are we going to go in circles here? I have addressed all of the points above already as you have already asked them before, quite recently actually. The misinformation from the pro-mRNA advocates has created skeptics for not just covid vaccines, but a general mistrust of vaccines and science. It cuts both ways.

If Novavax were allowed to be marketed and promoted as a safer alternative to mRNA and made as available as Pfizer has been, yes, millions of Americans would get the Novavax shot. I cannot say the same for Inovio. Many Americans would be hesitant to be given a minor shock after a shot, unless they truly believed that Inovio's vaccine was much safer (which it is).

This is laughable. There is not a single person on BearInsider who has indicated that they are waiting for a vaccine alternative like Novavax, despite your full year of propagandizing and spreading false and misleading negative information about the existing vaccines. If you can't even convince one person on BI to take Novavax, what in the world makes you think millions of Americans are just waiting for this new vaccine?


The worst part is I couldn't even convince myself to wait for Novavax. I will do better next time sir!
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
Are we going to go in circles here? I have addressed all of the points above already as you have already asked them before, quite recently actually. The misinformation from the pro-mRNA advocates has created skeptics for not just covid vaccines, but a general mistrust of vaccines and science. It cuts both ways.

If Novavax were allowed to be marketed and promoted as a safer alternative to mRNA and made as available as Pfizer has been, yes, millions of Americans would get the Novavax shot. I cannot say the same for Inovio. Many Americans would be hesitant to be given a minor shock after a shot, unless they truly believed that Inovio's vaccine was much safer (which it is).

This is laughable. There is not a single person on BearInsider who has indicated that they are waiting for a vaccine alternative like Novavax, despite your full year of propagandizing and spreading false and misleading negative information about the existing vaccines. If you can't even convince one person on BI to take Novavax, what in the world makes you think millions of Americans are just waiting for this new vaccine?


The worst part is I couldn't even convince myself to wait for Novavax. I will do better next time sir!
I think you understand my point. You can continue to blame the government for not making Novavax available earlier and all of that. I don't necessarily agree with you but I understand it. But you are on another planet if you think in summer 2022 we would see a meaningful number of Americans taking advantage of a new vaccine. It's just a non-starter and despite your protestations to the contrary I think you realize it too. Ask Minot what he thinks of Novavax and Inovio ...
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
Are we going to go in circles here? I have addressed all of the points above already as you have already asked them before, quite recently actually. The misinformation from the pro-mRNA advocates has created skeptics for not just covid vaccines, but a general mistrust of vaccines and science. It cuts both ways.

If Novavax were allowed to be marketed and promoted as a safer alternative to mRNA and made as available as Pfizer has been, yes, millions of Americans would get the Novavax shot. I cannot say the same for Inovio. Many Americans would be hesitant to be given a minor shock after a shot, unless they truly believed that Inovio's vaccine was much safer (which it is).

This is laughable. There is not a single person on BearInsider who has indicated that they are waiting for a vaccine alternative like Novavax, despite your full year of propagandizing and spreading false and misleading negative information about the existing vaccines. If you can't even convince one person on BI to take Novavax, what in the world makes you think millions of Americans are just waiting for this new vaccine?


The worst part is I couldn't even convince myself to wait for Novavax. I will do better next time sir!
I think you understand my point. You can continue to blame the government for not making Novavax available earlier and all of that. I don't necessarily agree with you but I understand it. But you are on another planet if you think in summer 2022 we would see a meaningful number of Americans taking advantage of a new vaccine. It's just a non-starter and despite your protestations to the contrary I think you realize it too. Ask Minot what he thinks of Novavax and Inovio ...


I raise SEVERAL points which you ignore and instead reduce and maneuver my argument to some sort of thesis that I want Novavax approved now because tons of people will now get vaccinated. You then argue against your version of my argument and ignore everything else posted above. Typical Unit2. I don't specifically care what Minot thinks about Inovio and Novavax as I haven't been in dialog with him very much but, again, this is your sly attempt to paint the sides as pro and anti-vax.

As evidence continues to emerge that mRNA is worse than other vaccines, I will continue to post it. By the way, I did get boosted three weeks ago, a year after my first doses. I switched to Pfizer and, while I felt flu symptoms for an entire day, I feel better now than I did the 2-3 months post Moderna shots.
BearForce2
How long do you want to ignore this user?


"It's Beyond ANY Shadow of a Doubt That the Vaccines Are Causing LARGE NUMBERS of Deaths": Dr. Peter McCullough
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

FDA Shuts Out Its Own Experts in Authorizing Another Vaccine Booster

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-shuts-out-its-own-experts-in-authorizing-another-booster-covid-vaccine-pandemic-science-11649016728?st=h5e27vjd8luvoi7&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Same Marty Makary who wrote this op ed last year?

Quote:

We'll Have Herd Immunity by April

Covid cases have dropped 77% in six weeks. Experts should level with the public about the good news.

Amid the dire Covid warnings, one crucial fact has been largely ignored: Cases are down 77% over the past six weeks. If a medication slashed cases by 77%, we'd call it a miracle pill. Why is the number of cases plummeting much faster than experts predicted?

In large part because natural immunity from prior infection is far more common than can be measured by testing. Testing has been capturing only from 10% to 25% of infections, depending on when during the pandemic someone got the virus. Applying a time-weighted case capture average of 1 in 6.5 to the cumulative 28 million confirmed cases would mean about 55% of Americans have natural immunity.

...
In my own conversations with medical experts, I have noticed that they too often dismiss natural immunity, arguing that we don't have data. The data certainly doesn't fit the classic randomized-controlled-trial model of the old-guard medical establishment. There's no control group. But the observational data is compelling.
...

But the consistent and rapid decline in daily cases since Jan. 8 can be explained only by natural immunity. Behavior didn't suddenly improve over the holidays; Americans traveled more over Christmas than they had since March. Vaccines also don't explain the steep decline in January. Vaccination rates were low and they take weeks to kick in.

My prediction that Covid-19 will be mostly gone by April is based on laboratory data, mathematical data, published literature and conversations with experts. But it's also based on direct observation of how hard testing has been to get, especially for the poor. If you live in a wealthy community where worried people are vigilant about getting tested, you might think that most infections are captured by testing. But if you have seen the many barriers to testing for low-income Americans, you might think that very few infections have been captured at testing centers. Keep in mind that most infections are asymptomatic, which still triggers natural immunity.

Many experts, along with politicians and journalists, are afraid to talk about herd immunity. The term has political overtones because some suggested the U.S. simply let Covid rip to achieve herd immunity. That was a reckless idea. But herd immunity is the inevitable result of viral spread and vaccination. When the chain of virus transmission has been broken in multiple places, it's harder for it to spreadand that includes the new strains.

...
Some medical experts privately agreed with my prediction that there may be very little Covid-19 by April but suggested that I not to talk publicly about herd immunity because people might become complacent and fail to take precautions or might decline the vaccine. But scientists shouldn't try to manipulate the
public by hiding the truth.
Really stuck the landing on that one. Can you imagine if COVID didn't disappear by April of last year? Would have been a really bad year right?

He also specifically called out how Manaus had herd immunity.

Quote:

Herd immunity has been well-documented in the Brazilian city of Manaus, where researchers in the Lancet reported the prevalence of prior Covid-19 infection to be 76%, resulting in a significant slowing of the infection.

A few months later, Manaus was devastated by COVID again.

Quote:

But after a peak in late April, Manaus seemed to have gotten past the worst of the pandemic. Some scientists thought that the drop meant Manaus had gained herd immunity.

...
Now three studies offer a sobering history of P.1's meteoric rise in the Amazonian city of Manaus. It most likely arose there in November and then fueled a record-breaking spike of coronavirus cases. It came to dominate the city partly because of an increased contagiousness, the research found.
...
To reduce the risks of P.1 outbreaks and reinfections, Dr. Faria said it was important to double down on every measure we have to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Masks and social distancing can work against P.1. And vaccination can help drive down its transmission and protect those who do get infected from severe disease.

"The ultimate message is that you need to step up all the vaccination efforts as soon as possible," he said. "You need to be one step ahead of the virus."

Maybe Makary should learn from his past mistakes and recognize that we are in a continuously evolving landscape and that as a surgical oncologist he may not be the best person to be making definitive suggestions on public health policy.



... He sounds fairly reasonable here. You unfairly paint him as an unqualified nut-job because he is against vaccine mandates and wants the scientific community to recognize natural immunity.



False. This is just your agenda shining through. I haven't painted him as a nut job but just one of many doctors who is stepping outside his primary field to advocate a certain worldview on how we should treat COVID. He is trying to come across as an authority but he's not. He's just a doctor with an opinion that the WSJ and others have given a platform to, for whatever reason.

As I showed above, he's been wildly wrong before. Last year you would have said his position was "reasonable " but in hindsight it was laughably bad.

My point is that I don't see much of any reason to rate his opinion. He doesn't have the credentials or experience to warrant a platform on par with infectious disease experts or epidemiologists. Just as I'm sure he would take the opinions of epidemiologists with a grain of salt when discussing surgical oncology I would do the same here, particularly given his track record.


You are welcome to address what he actually wrote in WSJ instead of attacking his ability to comment on the fourth shot.
It's an off topic discussion board on a Cal sports website that you constantly fill with anti-vax misinformation regardless of source. I'm going to continue to feel free to respond however I desire including by pointing out where you've sourced an op-ed from a person with a history of poor takes on COVID.


I took the time to rebut your criticisms of the source. In turn, you disparage the two other "sources:" me and this board. Thanks for the chuckle. Don't change Unit2, not that you are capable of doing so.

Two questions:
1) is the spike protein toxic?
2) has pfizers mRNA vaccine cause any Americans to die? A few months ago you asked me to prove it caused a single death.
What would be the point in my bothering to respond? No one is getting vaccinated any more. We've done what we are going to do. The daily vax rate has dropped to 250k (mostly boosters) and falling. No one is going to get your favored old-school vaccines. The reason they are authorizing extra boosters is because the Biden administration is frustrated that the failure to approve the shot last fall when they wanted exacerbated the Omicron variant's warpath through our nation, killing far more than necessary. We underperformed all of our peer nations because we were undervaccinated.

We lost, COVID won and nothing we will do will change that. I doubt at this point very many people will get 4th booster shots. When the next variant hits or is on the horizon, we will probably see uptake from some members of vulnerable populations and other people who want additional protection. As you and I both know, vaccine hesitant people won't take the traditional vaccines when offered because they don't address the underlying anti-vax problem. It's why uptake has been so slow across the world where those vaccines are now offered.

This topic has more than run its course but you will continue to post misinformation and pretend that things aren't the way they are. The only way things will look good is if your buddy Makary was correct last year that COVID would run it's course and he just got the date wrong by a year or so. Right now we are about 2x the lowest level of weekly COVID cases (and deaths) that we hit last summer. Hopefully we can drop by 4 or 5x to a more sustainable level which would take COVID deaths down to a more flu like toll of perhaps 30-40k per year moving forward.
1) Yes, the fourth booster was authorized because Biden is frustrated (that is not how science works).
2) Most of the shots given out are boosters. Novavax is absolutely helping vaccine uptake. However, many countries have a supply of rapidly expiring mRNA vaccines, which they will promote prior to promoting vaccines that last longer.
3) FDA approval of Novavax would help encourage other countries to roll it out and make it available.
4) Many things you have posted in the past have proven to be false over time. I would completely understand if you do not want to post in this thread anymore. I don't know why you defend the lack of scientific process in authorizing the fourth shot. I will still post INFORMATION here.
5) Hopefully we get safer vaccines and have a flu vaccine like death toll moving forward (less than a dozen per year at 140 million doses or so).

I believe that more people would have gotten vaccinated if the vaccines were safer. I believe that mRNA's only real advantage is speed. I believe the U.S. should have better supported DNA, Protein, and inactivated vaccines and given Americans a choice instead of hiding information about mRNA vaccines and spending millions of dollars on promoting "The Covid Vaccine" as if it was the only one.
Laughable for you to accuse me of misinformation but you have to save face so I'm not surprised.

I'm not defending the science behind the 4th booster. It represents the sort of executive meddling that I don't like, whether it ends up being right or not is a different question.

Practically speaking, the vaccine drive is over in the US. The vast majority of the benefit has been derived from people already vaccinated. I expect very little uptake from non compromised people in future boosters, absent some pretty big changes like new variants, etc. I think if we approved Novavax and others, we would see essentially no additional vaccine update. To my knowledge there is not a single person on BI who has stated they are waiting for a vaccine alternative. I've never met a person in real life who has said so either. You are the closest, but you've acknowledged that you already are vaccinated.

So let's assume that we get a vaccine that proves to be about as effective as mRNA but with a perfect safety profile. Do you actually think that will change anything? Do you think the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans will rush to get vaccinated?


This is the type of conversation I appreciate because I feel you are being less combative and more realistic.

What is the point in criticizing mRNA now, before, or ever?

If I criticized during the initial EUA, it would discourage vaccine uptake which was necessary to combat a deadly pandemic. Experimental mRNA vaccines did more good than harm and were definitely better than the only alternative: JnJ's experimental adenovirus vector.

If I criticize now, who does it help?

Answer: kids and people the people who are still on the fence despite mandates and more than a full year of mRNA and JnJ monopoly. I can't imagine why someone unvaccinated would be hesitant to tell you they are!

In the same retrospect, if the vaccination drive is over, why were Pfizer and the FDA FIGHTING to KEEP the DATA and approval analysis BURIED for 75 YEARS?

By the way, the biggest obstacle to American commercialization of Inovio and Novavax is the fact that they are American companies playing in the field that is being monopolized by the new mRNA technology of Pfizer and the NIH/Moderna.

so you believe that some significant proportion of the ~100 million unvaccinated Americans would become vaccinated within a few months of offering Novavax/Inovio?

You will probably grumble about this, but as I stated earlier, people aren't flocking to Novavax in Germany. You're running out of excuses.

Quote:



An estimated four million doses of the vaccine were delivered in the first quarter of the year, with around 30 million more doses due to be delivered between April and June.

With polls suggesting that unvaccinated people had a widespread distrust in new vaccine technologies such as mRNA, there were hopes that this 'inactive' vaccine would be enough to turn the tide.

But Health Minister Karl Lauterbach (SPD) has claimed that similar types of disinformation around Novavax are circulating on the internet in vaccine-sceptic circles.

Novavax's investors have taken notice.

Turns out that the ant-mRNA information that people like you spread, much of it misinformation, worked a little too well and, as I've said over and over, caused people to oppose all COVID vaccines (as well as non-COVID vaccines). As anti-public health people said early in the pandemic, the cure was worse than the disease. Sad, but that's reality.
Are we going to go in circles here? I have addressed all of the points above already as you have already asked them before, quite recently actually. The misinformation from the pro-mRNA advocates has created skeptics for not just covid vaccines, but a general mistrust of vaccines and science. It cuts both ways.

If Novavax were allowed to be marketed and promoted as a safer alternative to mRNA and made as available as Pfizer has been, yes, millions of Americans would get the Novavax shot. I cannot say the same for Inovio. Many Americans would be hesitant to be given a minor shock after a shot, unless they truly believed that Inovio's vaccine was much safer (which it is).

This is laughable. There is not a single person on BearInsider who has indicated that they are waiting for a vaccine alternative like Novavax, despite your full year of propagandizing and spreading false and misleading negative information about the existing vaccines. If you can't even convince one person on BI to take Novavax, what in the world makes you think millions of Americans are just waiting for this new vaccine?


The worst part is I couldn't even convince myself to wait for Novavax. I will do better next time sir!
I think you understand my point. You can continue to blame the government for not making Novavax available earlier and all of that. I don't necessarily agree with you but I understand it. But you are on another planet if you think in summer 2022 we would see a meaningful number of Americans taking advantage of a new vaccine. It's just a non-starter and despite your protestations to the contrary I think you realize it too. Ask Minot what he thinks of Novavax and Inovio ...


By the way, I did get boosted three weeks ago, a year after my first doses. I switched to Pfizer and, while I felt flu symptoms for an entire day, I feel better now than I did the 2-3 months post Moderna shots.
I'm glad to hear you are feeling better. I'm honestly surprised you would bother getting boosted at this point given that prevalence of virus in the community is so low and there is nothing on the horizon. I got boosted in November prior to some holiday travel because I knew prevalence of Omicron would be on the rise and I wanted to protect my family. I don't expect to get any more shots unless new variants arise and it becomes apparent that additional shots would be warranted.
Unit2Sucks
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Seeking Alpha isn't a great source for public health information, but saw an interesting article there on Novavax which linked to a comparison of a number of vaccines.

Now that 003 has promised to ignore me, he won't be able to see this and respond with misinformation. So we have that going for us, which is nice.

Quote:

Head-to-head comparison of 4 vaccines

Recently prestigious science journal Nature highlighted a paper recently published (but not yet reviewed) on bioRxiv. The paper "Humoral and cellular immune memory to four COVID-19 vaccines" compares the BioNTech/Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) and Novavax COVID vaccines.

The above study compares 3 different kinds of COVID vaccines, two mRNA-based vaccines, a viral vector vaccine (where a harmless virus which carries the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein gene is injected as a vaccine, with the patient being tricked into making the COVID spike protein) and a genetically engineered spike protein injected into recipients. Fourteen different aspects of immune protection were measured, including antibody response and how different kinds of immune cells react. The powerful aspect of this study is that all of the tests were conducted with the same lab tests. This removes a powerful variable due to some tests being very specialised and results from different labs can vary.

The mRNA and Novavax vaccines produced very high levels of antibodies, but the levels of the antibodies declined over 6 months. The J&J viral vector vaccine produced a strong antibody response which was sustained, although it never exceeded the mRNA vaccine results.

A key difference between the Novavax vaccine and mRNA (BioNTech/Pfizer, Moderna) & J&J viral vector vaccines was that in the case of the Novavax vaccine, a particular class of T-cells, which destroy cells infected by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, were low to undetectable while the other 3 vaccines performed well with these protective cells.

This was from a really small study (12-30 people per vaccine) so it may not be very reliable. But if it's true that Novavax suffers from the same antibody dropoff as mRNA vaccines but doesn't create the strong t-cell immune response needed for long-term protection, it would appear that Novavax won't offer a meaningful durable solution to COVID and will remain a niche player. At this point it may not matter because they have had so many problems manufacturing at scale (lower yields than expected, among other issues) that they may never have been a contender for the volumes we needed. Novavax's stock is at a 52-week low and investors seem displeased with recent results.
bearister
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oski003
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4/6/22 What the panel needs, but doesn't have:

Jerry Weir, the director of the division of viral products at the FDA's office of vaccines research and review, gave members of the panel a broad charge, basically throwing at them every open question about what would be needed in order to decide when a current vaccine is insufficient and when a new one, targeted against a different variant, is sufficient.

Stanford's Hayley Ganz responded by laying out what the panel would need to know in order to make such a decision data that haven't been presented to the panel.

One problem, she said, was that a lot of the discussion is centered around influenza, where knowledge about the vaccines and the virus are settled. But what we know about SARS-CoV-2 is not settled at all. Here's what Ganz wants:

More information on "correlates of protection" beyond antibody levels. There is data being collected on T-cell response, she said. Those data need to be presented to the committee.
Data on safety. The public comment session included remarks by many people who said they had been injured by the vaccines. There are several systems put in place in the U.S. and elsewhere that are closely monitoring the safety of the vaccine. Those data need to be presented for the new vaccines in a granular way.
What's in the pipeline? Right now, the committee is considering only data from vaccines that have been authorized. But to decide on new variant vaccines, experts need to know what products are in the pipeline, even if they are not yet authorized.
bearister
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Covid linked to 33-fold increase in risk of potentially fatal blood clot


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/06/covid-linked-33-fold-increase-risk-pulmonary-embolism-dvt?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other



Data: N.Y. Times. Cartogram: Kavya Beheraj/Axios

COVID cases rise again in half the states


https://www.axios.com/covid-cases-rise-again-in-half-the-states-43180a96-9339-450d-966a-0631d04d9490.html
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BearForce2
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Pelosi tests positive a day after Obama's visit to the White House.
Bonus: Biden appearing lost in his own house.
Big C
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BearForce2 said:



Pelosi tests positive a day after Obama's visit to the White House.
Bonus: Biden appearing lost in his own house.

It's the battle cry of the elitist Left: Rules for thee; not for me! Governor Gavin should invite them out to the French Laundry! Is it any wonder that Ukraine is staging those atrocities! Groomers! And speaking of Hunter Biden,,,
BearForce2
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A Jaw-Dropping 769 Athletes have Collapsed While Competing Over The Past Year "Avg. Age of Players Suffering Cardiac Arrest is JUST 23"

Eastern Oregon Bear
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BearForce2 said:

A Jaw-Dropping 769 Athletes have Collapsed While Competing Over The Past Year "Avg. Age of Players Suffering Cardiac Arrest is JUST 23"
Yet another "fact" and a quote without sources. You ought to know by now that only 1 or 2 of us are so gullible as to just take your word for something.
oski003
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

BearForce2 said:

A Jaw-Dropping 769 Athletes have Collapsed While Competing Over The Past Year "Avg. Age of Players Suffering Cardiac Arrest is JUST 23"
Yet another "fact" and a quote without sources. You ought to know by now that only 1 or 2 of us are so gullible as to just take your word for something.


Heart issues from boosters. Australia's primetime sports.

MinotStateBeav
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Nice, I was just about to post this story. I wonder if they'll have a job next week lol.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

BearForce2 said:

A Jaw-Dropping 769 Athletes have Collapsed While Competing Over The Past Year "Avg. Age of Players Suffering Cardiac Arrest is JUST 23"
Yet another "fact" and a quote without sources. You ought to know by now that only 1 or 2 of us are so gullible as to just take your word for something.


Heart issues from boosters. Australia's primetime sports.


Hadn't heard of this so I googled Ollie Wines. He says it's fake news.

Quote:

In the days since there has been speculation the heart issue may have been linked to myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle that can potentially be caused by an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine.

However both Wines and his cardiologist have since ruled out that possibility after the star midfielder was released from hospital on Friday evening.

"It's nothing to do with that (vaccines). It's completely unrelated," Wines told reporters on Monday.

"It's more a heart rhythm issue that is pretty common in elderly people and elite athletes.

"Once it was explained to me it was very reassuring and there's not too many long-term effects.

"The prognosis is really positive. I've got a few more tests to come and to see the cardiologist again but at this stage it's not a big issue."

BearForce2
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At the time when the documentfrom the first quarter of 2021was sent to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Pfizer had onboarded about 600 extra full-time workers to deal with the jump.

"More are joining each month with an expected total of more than 1,800 additional resources by the end of June 2021," Pfizer said.
BearForce2
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

BearForce2 said:

A Jaw-Dropping 769 Athletes have Collapsed While Competing Over The Past Year "Avg. Age of Players Suffering Cardiac Arrest is JUST 23"
Yet another "fact" and a quote without sources. You ought to know by now that only 1 or 2 of us are so gullible as to just take your word for something.


I understand information is still being suppressed but all you have to do is ask nicely.

https://goodsciencing.com/covid/athletes-suffer-cardiac-arrest-die-after-covid-shot/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/04/update-jaw-dropping-769-athletes-collapsed-competing-past-year-avg-age-players-suffering-cardiac-arrest-just-23-video/
MinotStateBeav
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Saw this video today 003, its possible the vaccine has permanently changed the human dna.



bearister
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Then don't get vaccinated…that way you won't live long enough to see how the vaccine f@ucked us over.
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Big C
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MinotStateBeav said:

Saw this video today 003, its possible the vaccine has permanently changed the human dna.





A science fiction novel feels like it is starting to write itself in my head...

(or, that feeling could just be yet another reaction from the Moderna booster I got in December)



Meanwhile, after decades of regret, I'm finally actually glad I was never a talented athlete, so I don't have to worry about collapsing.
oski003
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MinotStateBeav said:

Saw this video today 003, its possible the vaccine has permanently changed the human dna.






I don't agree that the DNA mRNA or protein vaccines alter DNA.
oski003
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Big C said:

MinotStateBeav said:

Saw this video today 003, its possible the vaccine has permanently changed the human dna.





A science fiction novel feels like it is starting to write itself in my head...

(or, that feeling could just be yet another reaction from the Moderna booster I got in December)



Meanwhile, after decades of regret, I'm finally actually glad I was never a talented athlete, so I don't have to worry about collapsing.



The cost benefit analysis of the mRNA covid vaccine only gets dicey when you are young and healthy.
BearForce2
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Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) wants to know if Speaker Pelosi used monoclonal antibodies to treat her Covid-19 infection after the Biden Regime blocked treatment for public use.

Quote:

Since my vaccination status is now everybody's business, I'd like to know too. How 'bout it, Nancy?
oski003
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mRNA CFO's go gonzo.

Weird... Pfizer's CFO retired and new CFO named on April 11, 2022 and Moderna's CFO steps down on April 12, 2022. Moderna's CMO (chief medical officer) left a few months ago to join Teva's board.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2022/04/11/moderna-finance-chief-steps-down-after-two-years-but-lands-deal-for-42-million-stock-options/

https://www.reuters.com/business/pfizer-taps-david-denton-lowes-cfo-2022-04-11/
AunBear89
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oski003 said:

mRNA CFO's go gonzo.

Weird... Pfizer's CFO retired and new CFO named on April 11, 2022 and Moderna's CFO steps down on April 12, 2022. Moderna's CMO (chief medical officer) left a few months ago to join Teva's board.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2022/04/11/moderna-finance-chief-steps-down-after-two-years-but-lands-deal-for-42-million-stock-options/

https://www.reuters.com/business/pfizer-taps-david-denton-lowes-cfo-2022-04-11/

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
bearister
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As I said, if you don't want the vaccine, don't get it, but do your wheezing and dying at home to help the over stressed healthcare workers.
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