Vaccine Redux - Vax up and go to Class

102,670 Views | 2333 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by calbear93
philbert
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This is a good read on the development of covid treatments. You may need a subscription. Last sentence is kinda sobering.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/Where-are-drugs-to-beat-COVID-and-the-next-16276706.php
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:



Japanese study about the spread of mRNA particles past the localized area whereas the allegedly toxic PEG and spike protein get to the kidneys, ovaries, etc...
I spent the week at Lair of the Bear and looks like I missed a lot, most notably the continued rise of Delta and Delta + variants, which are extremely concerning.

I guess you've moved on from doom and glooming myocarditis to just generalized right wing nut job anti-vax conspiracy theories. This theory has been debunked before (I think in this thread?) and yet you resurface it in a tweet from a NewsMax "journalist".

You love pointing out potentially scary sounding things, but have yet to find anything that would make a public health expert consider an MRNA vaccine to be worse than the alternative. With the rise of Delta and Delta + variants worldwide, and soon in the US, it's likely that the value of the vaccines we have now will only rise. The vaccines are less effective against D+, but I'll take 80% effectiveness (with scary sounding but statistically insignificant long-term side effects) over 0% and hoping for the best.

The sad thing is that the sorts of people who are most likely to fall for this anti-vax FUD are also the types who don't think they need to wear masks or socially distance so they are most likely to become infected and suffer long-term consequences from COVID.

Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:



Japanese study about the spread of mRNA particles past the localized area whereas the allegedly toxic PEG and spike protein get to the kidneys, ovaries, etc...
I spent the week at Lair of the Bear and looks like I missed a lot, most notably the continued rise of Delta and Delta + variants, which are extremely concerning.

I guess you've moved on from doom and glooming myocarditis to just generalized right wing nut job anti-vax conspiracy theories. This theory has been debunked before (I think in this thread?) and yet you resurface it in a tweet from a NewsMax "journalist".

You love pointing out potentially scary sounding things, but have yet to find anything that would make a public health expert consider an MRNA vaccine to be worse than the alternative. With the rise of Delta and Delta + variants worldwide, and soon in the US, it's likely that the value of the vaccines we have now will only rise. The vaccines are less effective against D+, but I'll take 80% effectiveness (with scary sounding but statistically insignificant long-term side effects) over 0% and hoping for the best.

The sad thing is that the sorts of people who are most likely to fall for this anti-vax FUD are also the types who don't think they need to wear masks or socially distance so they are most likely to become infected and suffer long-term consequences from COVID.



Not trying to hijack this thread (well, maybe just a little), but how was the Lair? We'll be there in four weeks!
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:



Japanese study about the spread of mRNA particles past the localized area whereas the allegedly toxic PEG and spike protein get to the kidneys, ovaries, etc...
I spent the week at Lair of the Bear and looks like I missed a lot, most notably the continued rise of Delta and Delta + variants, which are extremely concerning.

I guess you've moved on from doom and glooming myocarditis to just generalized right wing nut job anti-vax conspiracy theories. This theory has been debunked before (I think in this thread?) and yet you resurface it in a tweet from a NewsMax "journalist".

You love pointing out potentially scary sounding things, but have yet to find anything that would make a public health expert consider an MRNA vaccine to be worse than the alternative. With the rise of Delta and Delta + variants worldwide, and soon in the US, it's likely that the value of the vaccines we have now will only rise. The vaccines are less effective against D+, but I'll take 80% effectiveness (with scary sounding but statistically insignificant long-term side effects) over 0% and hoping for the best.

The sad thing is that the sorts of people who are most likely to fall for this anti-vax FUD are also the types who don't think they need to wear masks or socially distance so they are most likely to become infected and suffer long-term consequences from COVID.



Not trying to hijack this thread (well, maybe just a little), but how was the Lair? We'll be there in four weeks!


It was as "normal" as they could make it under the circumstances. About 1/3 capacity, with all of the benefits and drawbacks that entails. They served food from behind plexi enclosures which took away some of the charm but I think was a reasonable precaution. No masks were required anywhere and honestly it wasn't very crowded except in the lodge after shows. They are planning to ramp up throughout the summer so your experience may be a bit different.

Most importantly, the kids had a blast!
GivemTheAxe
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oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

Increase in infections in Israel despite mass vaccinations. Indoor mask rules reinstated. Half of those sick had been vaccinated by Pfizer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccinated-people-account-for-half-of-new-covid-19-delta-cases-in-israeli-outbreak-11624624326


The vaccines are only 95% effective against the original strain of COVID. They are reportedly effective against the D1 variant. But I have not seen any reports whether that effectiveness is 95% or less.

In any event, we can expect that some number of the vaccinated will be included among those infected during a spike.
The larger the absolute number of vaccinated, the larger will be the absolute number of vaccinated who will be infected during a spike.

That fact is not a criticism of the vaccines. It is merely a mathematical conclusion.


It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants. It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall.
1. I said that i did not know whether the vaccine had the same effectiveness against the D1 Variant as it did against the original strain, my comments were that even assuming 95% effectiveness, we should expect that some percentage of vaccinated individuals would be infected by COVID. if you know the effectiveness of the current vaccine against the D1 Variant, please enlighten us.

If you read the WSJ article I posted about Israel and breakthrough covid from Delta strain, you would be enlightened. Nvax is 96% against original strain and 55% against South African strain. Moderna was offered a large grant to test effectiveness against South Africa strain and rejected it. They have only shown immunogenicity against SA strain in a lab, and it is significantly less than 95%, despite the biased setting. I doubt effectiveness against Delta strain is in the 90s.

2. You say, "It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants." However you ignore that the current vaccine is more or less effective against many of the Variants being experienced in the world. So obviously, some effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine.

I never said no effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine. Your logic here does not cut the mustard.

3, You also say, "It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall." Unless you know Marty McFly and have access to his time machine, it appears more than a little unfair to criticize the vaccine developers for failing to foresee the evolution of the D1 Variant and with that foresight understand how that Variant operates and how to develop an appropriate defense. These vaccines were developed very quickly but they weren't developed overnight.

Again, your logic does not cut the mustard. I am not criticizing spike protein vaccine scientists. I am criticizing the actual vaccine. I am criticizing the FDA/OWS/NIH/politics for having only three vaccines available, all spike protein based off the original variant, one of which was halted in trials for the same condition it was halted after EUA and European countries won't touch it with a ten foot pool.

Perhaps your criticism is better focused on the individuals who are resisting vaccination. It is a well known fact that the Variants arise from mutations that increase the longer the original strain of Covid spreads through the host population. The more people there are that contract Covid (or one of the Variants), the more mutations there will be. one good way to fight further mutations is to "Get the **** shot."

Fine. Let's force vaccination on everyone in the U.S. and close the border for five years. I am being a bit facetious here. In reality, if we could kill it by vaccinating everyone around the same time, it would be great. Perhaps, we should ship Pfizer and Moderna to Mexico, so their adults could get vaccinated.

However, what we really need are SAFE VACCINES that give protection against severe disease that we will likely boost annually, like a flu shot. Btw, vaccine survival causes variants as well.





Yes we need safe vaccines. But let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

Let's not forget that the original strain of COVID was killing thousands of people in the US each week.
CDC reports that the US weekly provisional death rate was 25,759 the week of 1-9-21 and 25,283 the week of 1-16-21.
With good reason the manufacturers were pushing hard to develop their vaccines and then get them into the public AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Every week of delay meant 25,000+ more dead in the US.
(FYI the US provisional death rate was 1,330 the week of 6-12-21 and 611 the week of 6-12-21.

I for one am very happy that the manufacturers did not delay their vaccines until it would defeat every possible variant (even if that were possible).

Repeating my earlier analogy. I was much more afraid of the lion that I knew was downstairs in my house. Than I was of the lion that might be in the backyard of the house across the street.
GivemTheAxe
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Chapman_is_Gone
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I just wanted to thank you all for your excellent virus coverage. I get all of my virus coverage from Cyberbears, mostly because I've found that the virus is a topic largely being ignored in the mainstream media and this is the best place I can turn. What a treat it has been to log in over the past 15 months and be able to read such insightful analysis!

Based on all of your cumulative advice, I have made some dramatic adjustments to my lifestyle, outlook, and living arrangements, but I'm sure it'll pay off sooner or later. Better safe than sorry! Thankfully, I don't have ovaries.

AunBear89
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Ovaries aren't the only things you lack
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
oski003
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GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

Increase in infections in Israel despite mass vaccinations. Indoor mask rules reinstated. Half of those sick had been vaccinated by Pfizer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccinated-people-account-for-half-of-new-covid-19-delta-cases-in-israeli-outbreak-11624624326


The vaccines are only 95% effective against the original strain of COVID. They are reportedly effective against the D1 variant. But I have not seen any reports whether that effectiveness is 95% or less.

In any event, we can expect that some number of the vaccinated will be included among those infected during a spike.
The larger the absolute number of vaccinated, the larger will be the absolute number of vaccinated who will be infected during a spike.

That fact is not a criticism of the vaccines. It is merely a mathematical conclusion.


It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants. It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall.
1. I said that i did not know whether the vaccine had the same effectiveness against the D1 Variant as it did against the original strain, my comments were that even assuming 95% effectiveness, we should expect that some percentage of vaccinated individuals would be infected by COVID. if you know the effectiveness of the current vaccine against the D1 Variant, please enlighten us.

If you read the WSJ article I posted about Israel and breakthrough covid from Delta strain, you would be enlightened. Nvax is 96% against original strain and 55% against South African strain. Moderna was offered a large grant to test effectiveness against South Africa strain and rejected it. They have only shown immunogenicity against SA strain in a lab, and it is significantly less than 95%, despite the biased setting. I doubt effectiveness against Delta strain is in the 90s.

2. You say, "It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants." However you ignore that the current vaccine is more or less effective against many of the Variants being experienced in the world. So obviously, some effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine.

I never said no effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine. Your logic here does not cut the mustard.

3, You also say, "It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall." Unless you know Marty McFly and have access to his time machine, it appears more than a little unfair to criticize the vaccine developers for failing to foresee the evolution of the D1 Variant and with that foresight understand how that Variant operates and how to develop an appropriate defense. These vaccines were developed very quickly but they weren't developed overnight.

Again, your logic does not cut the mustard. I am not criticizing spike protein vaccine scientists. I am criticizing the actual vaccine. I am criticizing the FDA/OWS/NIH/politics for having only three vaccines available, all spike protein based off the original variant, one of which was halted in trials for the same condition it was halted after EUA and European countries won't touch it with a ten foot pool.

Perhaps your criticism is better focused on the individuals who are resisting vaccination. It is a well known fact that the Variants arise from mutations that increase the longer the original strain of Covid spreads through the host population. The more people there are that contract Covid (or one of the Variants), the more mutations there will be. one good way to fight further mutations is to "Get the **** shot."

Fine. Let's force vaccination on everyone in the U.S. and close the border for five years. I am being a bit facetious here. In reality, if we could kill it by vaccinating everyone around the same time, it would be great. Perhaps, we should ship Pfizer and Moderna to Mexico, so their adults could get vaccinated.

However, what we really need are SAFE VACCINES that give protection against severe disease that we will likely boost annually, like a flu shot. Btw, vaccine survival causes variants as well.





Yes we need safe vaccines. But let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

Let's not forget that the original strain of COVID was killing thousands of people in the US each week.
CDC reports that the US weekly provisional death rate was 25,759 the week of 1-9-21 and 25,283 the week of 1-16-21.
With good reason the manufacturers were pushing hard to develop their vaccines and then get them into the public AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Every week of delay meant 25,000+ more dead in the US.
(FYI the US provisional death rate was 1,330 the week of 6-12-21 and 611 the week of 6-12-21.

I for one am very happy that the manufacturers did not delay their vaccines until it would defeat every possible variant (even if that were possible).

Repeating my earlier analogy. I was much more afraid of the lion that I knew was downstairs in my house. Than I was of the lion that might be in the backyard of the house across the street.



A stopgap vaccine is better than no vaccine. Hopefully, the US is supporting other vaccine techs and just being quiet about it.
Chapman_is_Gone
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Meet me in the Dwinelle parking lot at 3pm tomorrow. We'll see who doesn't have ovaries.
oski003
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The United States had its first case of Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia (VITT) with an mRNA Vaccine.

This is after more than 100 million second doses.



This is the dangerous condition that is halting AZN throughout much of Europe and caused the FDA to delay review of AZN for EUA.

****

What is interesting is how many cases there have been in the U.K.

In the UK, there have been 191 cases of such with less than 11 million second doses of mRNA vaccines given.
In the UK, there were 984 cases of such after 20 million doses of the AZN vaccine.

Are we selectively reporting these cases or have we been extremely lucky?
AunBear89
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

Meet me in the Dwinelle parking lot at 3pm tomorrow. We'll see who doesn't have ovaries.


Hey, tough guy, is this you?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Big C
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

Meet me in the Dwinelle parking lot at 3pm tomorrow. We'll see who doesn't have ovaries.

I'd be there tomorrow, not to show off ovaries or anything like that, but just to chat about the Giants or the Chanticleers with you. Problem is though, I always get lost in and around Dwinelle.
GivemTheAxe
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oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

Increase in infections in Israel despite mass vaccinations. Indoor mask rules reinstated. Half of those sick had been vaccinated by Pfizer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccinated-people-account-for-half-of-new-covid-19-delta-cases-in-israeli-outbreak-11624624326


The vaccines are only 95% effective against the original strain of COVID. They are reportedly effective against the D1 variant. But I have not seen any reports whether that effectiveness is 95% or less.

In any event, we can expect that some number of the vaccinated will be included among those infected during a spike.
The larger the absolute number of vaccinated, the larger will be the absolute number of vaccinated who will be infected during a spike.

That fact is not a criticism of the vaccines. It is merely a mathematical conclusion.


It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants. It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall.
1. I said that i did not know whether the vaccine had the same effectiveness against the D1 Variant as it did against the original strain, my comments were that even assuming 95% effectiveness, we should expect that some percentage of vaccinated individuals would be infected by COVID. if you know the effectiveness of the current vaccine against the D1 Variant, please enlighten us.

If you read the WSJ article I posted about Israel and breakthrough covid from Delta strain, you would be enlightened. Nvax is 96% against original strain and 55% against South African strain. Moderna was offered a large grant to test effectiveness against South Africa strain and rejected it. They have only shown immunogenicity against SA strain in a lab, and it is significantly less than 95%, despite the biased setting. I doubt effectiveness against Delta strain is in the 90s.

2. You say, "It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants." However you ignore that the current vaccine is more or less effective against many of the Variants being experienced in the world. So obviously, some effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine.

I never said no effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine. Your logic here does not cut the mustard.

3, You also say, "It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall." Unless you know Marty McFly and have access to his time machine, it appears more than a little unfair to criticize the vaccine developers for failing to foresee the evolution of the D1 Variant and with that foresight understand how that Variant operates and how to develop an appropriate defense. These vaccines were developed very quickly but they weren't developed overnight.

Again, your logic does not cut the mustard. I am not criticizing spike protein vaccine scientists. I am criticizing the actual vaccine. I am criticizing the FDA/OWS/NIH/politics for having only three vaccines available, all spike protein based off the original variant, one of which was halted in trials for the same condition it was halted after EUA and European countries won't touch it with a ten foot pool.

Perhaps your criticism is better focused on the individuals who are resisting vaccination. It is a well known fact that the Variants arise from mutations that increase the longer the original strain of Covid spreads through the host population. The more people there are that contract Covid (or one of the Variants), the more mutations there will be. one good way to fight further mutations is to "Get the **** shot."

Fine. Let's force vaccination on everyone in the U.S. and close the border for five years. I am being a bit facetious here. In reality, if we could kill it by vaccinating everyone around the same time, it would be great. Perhaps, we should ship Pfizer and Moderna to Mexico, so their adults could get vaccinated.

However, what we really need are SAFE VACCINES that give protection against severe disease that we will likely boost annually, like a flu shot. Btw, vaccine survival causes variants as well.





Yes we need safe vaccines. But let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

Let's not forget that the original strain of COVID was killing thousands of people in the US each week.
CDC reports that the US weekly provisional death rate was 25,759 the week of 1-9-21 and 25,283 the week of 1-16-21.
With good reason the manufacturers were pushing hard to develop their vaccines and then get them into the public AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Every week of delay meant 25,000+ more dead in the US.
(FYI the US provisional death rate was 1,330 the week of 6-12-21 and 611 the week of 6-12-21.

I for one am very happy that the manufacturers did not delay their vaccines until it would defeat every possible variant (even if that were possible).

Repeating my earlier analogy. I was much more afraid of the lion that I knew was downstairs in my house. Than I was of the lion that might be in the backyard of the house across the street.



A stopgap vaccine is better than no vaccine. Hopefully, the US is supporting other vaccine techs and just being quiet about it.

In one interview in the past month or so. Dr. Fauci said he thought that people in the US would probably have to receive updated booster shots to deal with the new variants periodically (annually?). In
Much the same way we receive an annual flu shot to deal with the new strain of flu.
oski003
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https://coronavirus.quora.com/Censorship-Facebook-shut-down-a-140-000-person-group-discussing-Covid-19-Vaccine-Side-Effects-two-weeks-ago-NOTE?ch=99&share=bab5a967

I am not sure I totally blame Facebook here. They probably made a tit for tat deal with government officials to avoid anti-trust scrutiny. I know. Tin foil hat time
Unit2Sucks
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GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

GivemTheAxe said:

oski003 said:

Increase in infections in Israel despite mass vaccinations. Indoor mask rules reinstated. Half of those sick had been vaccinated by Pfizer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccinated-people-account-for-half-of-new-covid-19-delta-cases-in-israeli-outbreak-11624624326


The vaccines are only 95% effective against the original strain of COVID. They are reportedly effective against the D1 variant. But I have not seen any reports whether that effectiveness is 95% or less.

In any event, we can expect that some number of the vaccinated will be included among those infected during a spike.
The larger the absolute number of vaccinated, the larger will be the absolute number of vaccinated who will be infected during a spike.

That fact is not a criticism of the vaccines. It is merely a mathematical conclusion.


It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants. It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall.
1. I said that i did not know whether the vaccine had the same effectiveness against the D1 Variant as it did against the original strain, my comments were that even assuming 95% effectiveness, we should expect that some percentage of vaccinated individuals would be infected by COVID. if you know the effectiveness of the current vaccine against the D1 Variant, please enlighten us.

If you read the WSJ article I posted about Israel and breakthrough covid from Delta strain, you would be enlightened. Nvax is 96% against original strain and 55% against South African strain. Moderna was offered a large grant to test effectiveness against South Africa strain and rejected it. They have only shown immunogenicity against SA strain in a lab, and it is significantly less than 95%, despite the biased setting. I doubt effectiveness against Delta strain is in the 90s.

2. You say, "It is logical to criticize the vaccine for a design that loses significant effectiveness against variants." However you ignore that the current vaccine is more or less effective against many of the Variants being experienced in the world. So obviously, some effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine.

I never said no effort was made to make a more broadly effective vaccine. Your logic here does not cut the mustard.

3, You also say, "It is also logical to factor in Delta effectiveness in risk/reward mRNA vaccine analysis, especially since the Delta variant will be the dominant US variant by the fall." Unless you know Marty McFly and have access to his time machine, it appears more than a little unfair to criticize the vaccine developers for failing to foresee the evolution of the D1 Variant and with that foresight understand how that Variant operates and how to develop an appropriate defense. These vaccines were developed very quickly but they weren't developed overnight.

Again, your logic does not cut the mustard. I am not criticizing spike protein vaccine scientists. I am criticizing the actual vaccine. I am criticizing the FDA/OWS/NIH/politics for having only three vaccines available, all spike protein based off the original variant, one of which was halted in trials for the same condition it was halted after EUA and European countries won't touch it with a ten foot pool.

Perhaps your criticism is better focused on the individuals who are resisting vaccination. It is a well known fact that the Variants arise from mutations that increase the longer the original strain of Covid spreads through the host population. The more people there are that contract Covid (or one of the Variants), the more mutations there will be. one good way to fight further mutations is to "Get the **** shot."

Fine. Let's force vaccination on everyone in the U.S. and close the border for five years. I am being a bit facetious here. In reality, if we could kill it by vaccinating everyone around the same time, it would be great. Perhaps, we should ship Pfizer and Moderna to Mexico, so their adults could get vaccinated.

However, what we really need are SAFE VACCINES that give protection against severe disease that we will likely boost annually, like a flu shot. Btw, vaccine survival causes variants as well.





Yes we need safe vaccines. But let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

Let's not forget that the original strain of COVID was killing thousands of people in the US each week.
CDC reports that the US weekly provisional death rate was 25,759 the week of 1-9-21 and 25,283 the week of 1-16-21.
With good reason the manufacturers were pushing hard to develop their vaccines and then get them into the public AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. Every week of delay meant 25,000+ more dead in the US.
(FYI the US provisional death rate was 1,330 the week of 6-12-21 and 611 the week of 6-12-21.

I for one am very happy that the manufacturers did not delay their vaccines until it would defeat every possible variant (even if that were possible).

Repeating my earlier analogy. I was much more afraid of the lion that I knew was downstairs in my house. Than I was of the lion that might be in the backyard of the house across the street.



A stopgap vaccine is better than no vaccine. Hopefully, the US is supporting other vaccine techs and just being quiet about it.

In one interview in the past month or so. Dr. Fauci said he thought that people in the US would probably have to receive updated booster shots to deal with the new variants periodically (annually?). In
Much the same way we receive an annual flu shot to deal with the new strain of flu.
Despite anti-vaxxer alarmism to the contrary, there have been indications that the MRNA protection will be quite durable and possibly permanent.

Here's a paper in Nature and related NYT reporting.

From the NYT article:
Quote:

The vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna set off a persistent immune reaction in the body that may protect against the coronavirus for years, scientists reported on Monday.

The findings add to growing evidence that most people immunized with the mRNA vaccines may not need boosters, so long as the virus and its variants do not evolve much beyond their current forms which is not guaranteed. People who recovered from Covid-19 before being vaccinated may not need boosters even if the virus does make a significant transformation.

"It's a good sign for how durable our immunity is from this vaccine," said Ali Ellebedy, an immunologist at Washington University in St. Louis who led the study, which was published in the journal Nature.

The study did not consider the coronavirus vaccine made by Johnson & Johnson, but Dr. Ellebedy said he expected the immune response to be less durable than that produced by mRNA vaccines.

Dr. Ellebedy and his colleagues reported last month that in people who survived Covid-19, immune cells that recognize the virus lie quiescent in the bone marrow for at least eight months after infection. A study by another team indicated that so-called memory B cells continue to mature and strengthen for at least a year after infection.

Based on those findings, researchers suggested that immunity might last for years, possibly a lifetime, in people who were infected with the coronavirus and later vaccinated. But it was unclear whether vaccination alone might have a similarly long-lasting effect.
Obviously I don't have any scientific basis to speculate as to how things will turn out but at this point, the news has been quite positive regarding the effectiveness of the MRNA vaccines relative to J&J and other options.


oski003
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This is worth a watch, even if you do not like the source.



I would challenge anyone waving away safety issues for Pfizer or Moderna to look these people in the eye and say that there is no safety issue. The charts on safety of the Covid vaccines versus 31 years of history of other vaccine types was also an eye opener. It sounded like there was a coverup on at least a couple of these patients. Like the one that had no calls for follow up after reporting significant symptoms. That seemed at least to me like the clinicians were going to drop that person's data entirely rather than report the data.

The fact that some are trial participants makes it 10x worse. The vaccines are efficacious and saved thousands, but mrna and adenoviruses have risk.

The categorizing of the girls AE in the trial at 1:02:30 is jaw dropping to me.
sycasey
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I would never say the vaccines have zero risk.

I would definitely say that the risk from vaccines is way below that of COVID.
Unit2Sucks
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Nice news from Moderna regarding its effectiveness against Delta and other emerging variants. Let's hope it holds true.

Quote:

Moderna Provides a Clinical Update on the Neutralizing Activity of its COVID-19 Vaccine on Emerging Variants Including the Delta Variant First Identified in India

[Moderna] today announced new results from in vitro neutralization studies of sera from individuals vaccinated with the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine showing activity against variants of SARS-CoV-2. Vaccination with the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine produced neutralizing titers against all variants tested, including additional versions of the Beta variant (B.1.351, first identified in South Africa), three lineage variants of B.1.617 (first identified in India), including the Kappa (B.1.617.1) and the Delta variants (B.1.617.2); the Eta variant (B.1.525, first identified in Nigeria); and the A.23.1 and A.VOI.V2 variants first identified in Uganda and Angola, respectively. These data were submitted as a preprint to bioRxiv.

Unit2Sucks
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The price of the anti-vaxxer campaign?



Quote:

The discussion about vaccine-beating variants echoes the early debates about whether SARS-CoV-2 would go pandemic. "We don't think too well as a society about low-probability events that have far-reaching consequences," Majumder told me. "We need to prepare for a future where we are doing vaccine rollout again, and we need to figure out how to do that better." In the meantime, even highly vaccinated nations should continue investing in other measures that can control COVID-19 but have been inadequately usedimproved ventilation, widespread rapid tests, smarter contact tracing, better masks, places in which sick people can isolate, and policies like paid sick leave.



Zippergate
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More propaganda from U2S on the Delta variant. Straight from the Ministry of Truth. Up is down. Black is white. ALL roads lead to the experimental gene-therapy "vaccines."

Meanwhile, Nobel Prize winning scientists who have literally helped millions of people are being banned on youtube....because of "science."



"The Nobel Prize winning Professor, Dr. Satoshi mura, who developed #ivermectin, has been censored on YouTube. Brilliant scientists and lifesaving science are systematically being gagged. You know why."

AunBear89
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Unit2Sucks
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I have no idea why you keep talking about ivermectin. If there are studies showing it to be effective in the treatment of COVID, that would be a nice addition to the existing therapeutics.

If you are suggesting that people should avoid vaccination and rely on an untested therapeutic, then I hope no one listens to you because that is dangerous advice. If you want to go get COVID and treat it with ivermectin, knock yourself out. Oxford is studying it right now and I assume that we will know within a few months whether it's a safe and effective therapeutic, like dexamethasone, or whether it's snake oil, like HCQ. The fact that you are willing to recommend an untested, unproven off-label use indicates that you think COVID-19 is something to be reckoned with, so I appreciate that aspect.
Zippergate
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AunBear89 said:


Which is why we need to silence doctors and scientists who are preeminent in their fields and listen to people like Fauxi who have repeatedly lied to the American people.
Zippergate
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Unit2Sucks said:

I have no idea why you keep talking about ivermectin. If there are studies showing it to be effective in the treatment of COVID, that would be a nice addition to the existing therapeutics.

If you are suggesting that people should avoid vaccination and rely on an untested therapeutic, then I hope no one listens to you because that is dangerous advice. If you want to go get COVID and treat it with ivermectin, knock yourself out. Oxford is studying it right now and I assume that we will know within a few months whether it's a safe and effective therapeutic, like dexamethasone, or whether it's snake oil, like HCQ. The fact that you are willing to recommend an untested, unproven off-label use indicates that you think COVID-19 is something to be reckoned with, so I appreciate that aspect.
I DO know why you keep ignoring Ivermectin but you don't. Your gaslighting overlords know that if there are safe, effective treatments like Ivermectin, then they cannot push their experimental, unapproved gene therapies onto the public. And btw, HCQ is not snake oil. It just has little benefit for severe Covid patients. It has been clear for many, many months that early treatment with anti-virals can save lives and slow the spread. But cheap, safe, already approved therapeutics are of no interest to the Big Pharma Industrial Complex. Go ahead, give YOUR kids the "vaccine" (remember, that's what this thread is about). And if they are permanently maimed in the process, you can take comfort in knowing that your oblation to the gods of Pfizer and Moderna has been approved by the high priests of disinformation.
AunBear89
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Where did you get your medical degree? Or is it a pharmacy degree? What makes you the expert you pretend to be?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Unit2Sucks
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Zippergate said:

Unit2Sucks said:

I have no idea why you keep talking about ivermectin. If there are studies showing it to be effective in the treatment of COVID, that would be a nice addition to the existing therapeutics.

If you are suggesting that people should avoid vaccination and rely on an untested therapeutic, then I hope no one listens to you because that is dangerous advice. If you want to go get COVID and treat it with ivermectin, knock yourself out. Oxford is studying it right now and I assume that we will know within a few months whether it's a safe and effective therapeutic, like dexamethasone, or whether it's snake oil, like HCQ. The fact that you are willing to recommend an untested, unproven off-label use indicates that you think COVID-19 is something to be reckoned with, so I appreciate that aspect.
I DO know why you keep ignoring Ivermectin but you don't. Your gaslighting overlords know that if there are safe, effective treatments like Ivermectin, then they cannot push their experimental, unapproved gene therapies onto the public. And btw, HCQ is not snake oil. It just has little benefit for severe Covid patients. It has been clear for many, many months that early treatment with anti-virals can save lives and slow the spread. But cheap, safe, already approved therapeutics are of no interest to the Big Pharma Industrial Complex. Go ahead, give YOUR kids the "vaccine" (remember, that's what this thread is about). And if they are permanently maimed in the process, you can take comfort in knowing that your oblation to the gods of Pfizer and Moderna has been approved by the high priests of disinformation.
LOL, Ivermectin is an experimental, unapproved therapy for COVID.

My children aren't eligible for a vaccine so there is no decision for me to make.

I'm ignoring Ivermectin because there is no reason to pay attention to it. If the legitimate clinical studies prove it to be safe and effective, it will be an addition to our suite of therapeutics like dexamethasone. The fact that I don't continually post about dexamethasone, which is the best cheap and effective therapeutic we currently have, doesn't mean I am ignoring it, it just means that it's typically irrelevant to the conversations we are having on BI. When appropriate, I do refer to therapeutics.
oski003
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https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/assessment-report/spikevax-previously-covid-19-vaccine-moderna-epar-public-assessment-report_en.pdf

"Worst case scenario" due to the LNP's being smaller than 1273, the production version from Moderna

P 47

oski003
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CDC is asking healthcare workers to stop providing covid tests to vaccinated people. Test centers are closing in vaccinated areas.
BearForce2
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AunBear89
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In other news, nearly a third of Americans are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
oski003
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AunBear89 said:

In other news, nearly a third of Americans are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
In other news, AunBear89 thinks those who share opposing views are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
AunBear89
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oski003 said:

AunBear89 said:

In other news, nearly a third of Americans are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
In other news, AunBear89 thinks those who share opposing views are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
Nope - just pinhead anti-vaxers who think it is their right to act carelessly and spread disease.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
oski003
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AunBear89 said:

oski003 said:

AunBear89 said:

In other news, nearly a third of Americans are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
In other news, AunBear89 thinks those who share opposing views are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.
Nope - just pinhead anti-vaxers who think it is their right to act carelessly and spread disease.


I don't like pinhead anti-vaxxers who think it is their right to act carelessly and spread disease either. I also don't like rapists, thieves, and murderers. I don't like people who throw trash out their car windows, including cigarettes.
BearForce2
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AunBear89 said:

In other news, nearly a third of Americans are easily duped morons that will believe every crazy theory presented to them.

Yeah, we know who those crazy people are, the ones who believed bats naturally transmitted the virus to humans and suppressed other alternative theories.
 
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