The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

871,897 Views | 9916 Replies | Last: 23 hrs ago by bear2034
golden sloth
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Cal88 said:

The Russians are winning too slowly, for the public that ignores the 7 to 1 ratio and is kept from the horrendous reality of Ukrainian losses.




Except Ukraine has not been suffering 7 to 1 loss ratios. You would know this if you read anything other than Russian propaganda.
sonofabear51
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Oh, just shut up already! to putin88, and all the others.
Start Slowly and taper off
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

The Russians are winning too slowly, for the public that ignores the 7 to 1 ratio and is kept from the horrendous reality of Ukrainian losses.



I know one way all the losses could be stopped.
movielover
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movielover
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Politico article on Ukr offensive.



Cal88
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"Except Ukraine has not been suffering 7 to 1 loss ratios. You would know this if you read anything other than Russian propaganda."

Would you know if you'd read NATO propaganda, which is far, far more prevalent, and more efficient in its gaslighting?
Cal88
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movielover said:




The gang-pressing military recruitment has been focused on Russian speaking cities like Odessa, Kharkov, Dnipro, Sumy etc, as well as Hungarian speaking Transcarpathia in the southwest. It's as if the western Ukraine nationalists in charge are emptying out the less pure members of the "motherland"...
movielover
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Almost like... Nazi's? .... how long til a citizen shoots one of these henchmen?
golden sloth
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Cal88 said:

"Except Ukraine has not been suffering 7 to 1 loss ratios. You would know this if you read anything other than Russian propaganda."

Would you know if you'd read NATO propaganda, which is far, far more prevalent, and more efficient in its gaslighting?


Yes, I do know. And most importantly, I understand that not all media is able to be subdivided into Pro-ukraine and Pro-Russian. Not everything in the media space is coerced or has a specific purpose behind their stories. As such I am able to recognize that simple truth that, "just because you dont parrot Putin does not mean you are a Ukrainian stooge." Pro-putin people like yourself, try to deny this truth as it would mean independent, rational, well-informed voices that disagree with Putin are accurate and correct. This is a threat to Putin, as it denies his lies.
calbear93
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movielover said:

Almost like... Nazi's? .... how long til a citizen shoots one of these henchmen?
Just out of curiosity, what is your position on Iran, North Korea, China. All misunderstood and unfairly portrayed by dishonest U.S. media and the U.S. government?

Most of us graduated from UC Berkeley and, as such, have at least average intelligence. When you, a complete stranger, try so hard to promote our country's enemy so fervently and so frequently, it does make your persuasion ineffective. Try to be more subtle in your attempt to promote the interest of our expressed enemy.
movielover
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FWIW, on the rare ocassion the Ukrainian military has good news, or hope for good news, I post it.

I've noted their alleged accumulation of 50,000 attack drones with plans to launch 1,000 at a time. And I've asked Cal88 if he thinks the plan / strategy is workable. This past week, I noted that Ukraine allegedly secured up to 500,000 badly needed artillery shells from South Korea. These are just two examples.

Since the first 6 months of the modified SMO, it appears most major developments are tilting in favor of Russia.

In contrast, the "USSR and Ivan Drago" are evil gets old. Your side can't acknowledge basic substantive facts, most labeling everything uncomfortable "propoganda", and some (Unit2Sucks and others) resorting to childish insults.

BTW, Russia supposedly suggested peace talks again, and NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg supposedly shot it down.
BearHunter
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ChatGPT says the United States orchestrated a coup d'tat in Ukraine, causing the War in Donbas, the annexation of Crimea, and increasing the risk of nuclear war.

Was ChatGPT screening Cal88's posts?
oski003
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BearHunter said:



ChatGPT says the United States orchestrated a coup d'tat in Ukraine, causing the War in Donbas, the annexation of Crimea, and increasing the risk of nuclear war.

Was ChatGPT screening Cal88's posts?


Cal88 is ChatGPT.
Unit2Sucks
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This is a great thread.







UK MOD reporting that Russian daily casualty rates have declined significantly as they've capitulated on their fruitless winter "offensive." It's likely they are settling in to prepare for Ukraine's coming offensive.



Here's a thread re an interview with a UAF commander on the defense of Ukraine and how it was helpful in preventing Russia from expanding the front in their "offensive". Seeing as how Russia accomplished nothing in the last few months, it's hard to disagree. Although I'm sure some shills will attempt to anyway. If you look at the Russian milbloggers criticizing Putin (some of who are being persecuted by the Kremlin for it) - you will see that he's right.



If Russia is ever going to take Bakhmut, it appears it will have to be Wagner up the middle. Of course, this won't stop shills from declaring victory every day like they have for almost a year now.




movielover
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Bakhmut is 95% in Russia control. I believe Zelensky stopped sending reinforcements today.

Ukraine could save its country with a peace deal and neutrality, acknowledge Crimea as Russian, and possibly give up Dunbas to Russia, or make it neutral.

Pipe dreamers like Unit2Sucks are setting up Ukraine to be completely vanquished. Their air defense is 90% gone, when it's 100% gone it could get ugly.

Putin has called for another 400,000 men to be trained, and Colonel Douglass McGregor believes they'll now go all the way to the Polish borde. Ukraine has few capable men left, and new ammunition from South Korea may just prolong the slaughter.

Russia will likely take a bigger slice for security, and will Poland absorb the rest of the country? Things get tough if Russia rates Odessa for the long term.

Whete are American statesmen?
golden sloth
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movielover said:

Bakhmut is 95% in Russia control. I believe Zelensky stopped sending reinforcements today.

Ukraine could save its country with a peace deal and neutrality, acknowledge Crimea as Russian, and possibly give up Dunbas to Russia, or make it neutral.

Pipe dreamers like Unit2Sucks are setting up Ukraine to be completely vanquished. Their air defense is 90% gone, when it's 100% gone it could get ugly.

Putin has called for another 400,000 men to be trained, and Colonel Douglass McGregor believes they'll now go all the way to the Polish borde. Ukraine has few capable men left, and new ammunition from South Korea may just prolong the slaughter.

Russia will likely take a bigger slice for security, and will Poland absorb the rest of the country? Things get tough if Russia rates Odessa for the long term.

Whete are American statesmen?


So after months of a prolonged winter/spring offensive designed to defeat the Ukrainians before the western weapons are ready for use on the front, Russia has achieved to take 95% of one relatively unimportant city, now is the time to acquiesce and let someone who has publicly stated to the world that ukranians are not an actual people?

Not that you ever act in good faith.

Why is Russia calling up another 400k men if Ukraine has been suffering 7 to 1 casualties? The lies are starting to contradict themselves.

Russia always wanted all of ukraine, Ukraine defending themselves doesnt change that.

And why is Poland now suddenly invading Ukraine? Why would Ukraine's most outspoken supporter suddenly invade them? That is dumb, even by your standards.

If it takes Russia 6 months to take half a small city, Russia should make their way to Odessa in roughly year 4041.
movielover
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golden sloth said:

movielover said:

Bakhmut is 95% in Russia control. I believe Zelensky stopped sending reinforcements today.

Ukraine could save its country with a peace deal and neutrality, acknowledge Crimea as Russian, and possibly give up Dunbas to Russia, or make it neutral.

Pipe dreamers like Unit2Sucks are setting up Ukraine to be completely vanquished. Their air defense is 90% gone, when it's 100% gone it could get ugly.

Putin has called for another 400,000 men to be trained, and Colonel Douglass McGregor believes they'll now go all the way to the Polish borde. Ukraine has few capable men left, and new ammunition from South Korea may just prolong the slaughter.

Russia will likely take a bigger slice for security, and will Poland absorb the rest of the country? Things get tough if Russia rates Odessa for the long term.

Whete are American statesmen?


So after months of a prolonged winter/spring offensive designed to defeat the Ukrainians before the western weapons are ready for use on the front, Russia has achieved to take 95% of one relatively unimportant city, now is the time to acquiesce and let someone who has publicly stated to the world that ukranians are not an actual people?

Europe had a mild winter, the ground didn't freeze, and Bakhmut turned into Stalingrad. Folks argue Russia decided the most wise decision was to stand pat and grind down the Ukranian army. The recently released USA classified leak stated a 7 to 1 kill ratio to Russias advantage. Who knows, maybe this is the mother of all head fakes? BBut why does Zelensky keep telegraphing his military intentions?

Not that you ever act in good faith.

Why is Russia calling up another 400k men if Ukraine has been suffering 7 to 1 casualties? The lies are starting to contradict themselves.

Colonel McGregor surmised Putin is preparing to go all the way to the Polish border.

Russia always wanted all of ukraine, Ukraine defending themselves doesnt change that.

And why is Poland now suddenly invading Ukraine? Why would Ukraine's most outspoken supporter suddenly invade them? That is dumb, even by your standards.

Not an invasion. If Ukraine collapses, they'll step into the vacuum. Can Ukraine thrive without young men, two lost generations, massive outflow, no Donbas or Odessa?

If it takes Russia 6 months to take half a small city, Russia should make their way to Odessa in roughly year 4041.


Ukraine / NATO reportedly spent eight years fortifying Bakhmut for this planned conflict. It's a strategic city and transportation hub.

But hey, bring on the magical spring offensive and killer drones. I'd prefer peace talks.
Unit2Sucks
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golden sloth said:




So after months of a prolonged winter/spring offensive designed to defeat the Ukrainians before the western weapons are ready for use on the front, Russia has achieved to take 95% of one relatively unimportant city, now is the time to acquiesce and let someone who has publicly stated to the world that ukranians are not an actual people?

Not that you ever act in good faith.

Why is Russia calling up another 400k men if Ukraine has been suffering 7 to 1 casualties? The lies are starting to contradict themselves.

Russia always wanted all of ukraine, Ukraine defending themselves doesnt change that.

And why is Poland now suddenly invading Ukraine? Why would Ukraine's most outspoken supporter suddenly invade them? That is dumb, even by your standards.

If it takes Russia 6 months to take half a small city, Russia should make their way to Odessa in roughly year 4041.
This is by design from Russia and there apparently continue to be people here committed to advancing their propaganda.

Unit2Sucks said:


Here's a primer. Nothing particularly earth shattering here, but just wanted to share that it's not unique to our little watering hole. What we have are either devoted propagandists or people who are useful idiots advancing the agenda exactly the way Putin and the Kremlin would prefer.

Quote:

We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as "the firehose of falsehood" because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of channels and messages and a shameless willingness to disseminate partial truths or outright fictions. In the words of one observer, "[N]ew Russian propaganda entertains, confuses and overwhelms the audience."

Contemporary Russian propaganda has at least two other distinctive features. It is also rapid, continuous, and repetitive, and it lacks commitment to consistency.

Interestingly, several of these features run directly counter to the conventional wisdom on effective influence and communication from government or defense sources, which traditionally emphasize the importance of truth, credibility, and the avoidance of contradiction. Despite ignoring these traditional principles, Russia seems to have enjoyed some success under its contemporary propaganda model, either through more direct persuasion and influence or by engaging in obfuscation, confusion, and the disruption or diminution of truthful reporting and messaging.

As for the 7 to 1 you are pointing out, that is just a straight lie. There is no support for it. The leak very clearly claimed that Russian KIA is 2-3x Ukraine's. There is no debate here about what was in the leak - we just have Russian supporters making false claims.



Not that it was on BI, but I even saw one complete moron claim that the leak showed 10 to 1 losses in favor of Russia. His support was a blog post from Will Shryver from June of last year lol (which he posted in multiple places sometimes pretending the ratio was 8 to 1 and sometimes pretending it was 10 to 1). In any event, this ridiculous claim had nothing to do with Bakhmut in 2023 and had no basis in reality. It was the beginning of the daily disinformation claiming Bakhmut had fallen, which continues to this day.

That's what we are dealing with in this misinformation war. I keep harping on firehose of falsehoods because it's absolutely the best description of what is going on. It's also why the propagandists and shills should be ignored. They aren't here to engage in good faith but merely executing on a strategy.
BearHunter
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Cal88 said:

Would you know if you'd read NATO propaganda, which is far, far more prevalent, and more efficient in its gaslighting?


American propaganda is the best in the world.
golden sloth
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Interesting tidbit, key points are at the end when the narrator says that both Ukraine and Russia are trying to bluff and double bluff each other and the media on all sides is going to eat it up.

Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:



As for the 7 to 1 you are pointing out, that is just a straight lie. There is no support for it. The leak very clearly claimed that Russian KIA is 2-3x Ukraine's. There is no debate here about what was in the leak - we just have Russian supporters making false claims.



Not that it was on BI, but I even saw one complete moron claim that the leak showed 10 to 1 losses in favor of Russia. His support was a blog post from Will Shryver from June of last year lol (which he posted in multiple places sometimes pretending the ratio was 8 to 1 and sometimes pretending it was 10 to 1). In any event, this ridiculous claim had nothing to do with Bakhmut in 2023 and had no basis in reality. It was the beginning of the daily disinformation claiming Bakhmut had fallen, which continues to this day.

That's what we are dealing with in this misinformation war. I keep harping on firehose of falsehoods because it's absolutely the best description of what is going on. It's also why the propagandists and shills should be ignored. They aren't here to engage in good faith but merely executing on a strategy.


Nobody belteves the numbers quoted in that picture above, not even NATO.

Those were the official numbers published by Ukrainian military outlets, before Von der Leyen, Milley etc publicly acknowledged last year that the real number of Ukrainian killed in action was over 100,000. So either these numbers were just relaying blatantly false information, or that picture has been altered. The latter is a lot more likely.


Ukrainian forces have been pummelled by Russian gliding bombs launched by fighter-bombers from a distance, this has forced Ukraine to move their few remaining AA batteries closer to the front, and these are being systematically hunted down by Russian Lancet drones, which they have developed last year:



Without these dwindling AA assets, the Ukrainian much-anticipated counteroffensive has little chance of succeeding as any massing of their land forces would be subject to intense aerial bombardment.

US intel vet Larry Johnson's sober assessment of the situation:


Cal88
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Good article on the state of industrial warfare in this conflict:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-28/ukraine-and-the-pentagon-are-using-ammo-far-faster-than-us-makes-it

excerpts:


Quote:

Ukraine Is Running Out of Ammo. So Is the US.
America's industrial base is struggling with supply chains and a shortage of workers while the Pentagon contracts are piling up.

As the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's military commander over a decade ago, I would often look deep into logistics and supply chains as I contemplated our combat operations in Afghanistan, the Balkans, Libya and counterpiracy. We felt comfortable that the overall Western defense industrial base which supports over $1.2 trillion in collective military budgets for the 31 NATO nations could handle those conflicts with relative ease.

But what made me nervous a decade ago was the possibility of great power conflict in Europe notably a potential flare-up with the Russian federation. While the democratic allies enjoy an overwhelming capability and inventory advantage (Russia's total defense budget is under $70 billion, one-tenth of NATO's at best), the Russians have a competent industrial base, lots of raw materials, and can draw on conscript labor to man the machines in their foundries and factories.

A number of analyses and war simulations are trying to project where the critical pain points will occur. Guns, missiles and ammunition especially howitzer shells are of most concern. Notable among the stockpiles running low are the 155-mm gun rounds that have emerged as the key offensive punch for the Ukrainians. Several analysts believe that Ukraine is burning through a year's worth of US prewar production monthly.

While the Department of Defense will continue to protect its own war reserves, the excess armament levels stockpiled for contingencies beyond basic needs of the US war plans are very low. And it is not just howitzer rounds: The high-performance HIMARS rockets are in short supply as well,

...While there will be some pinching in specific global commercial supply chains (e.g., electronics, construction materials, some minerals), the overall capacity to outproduce the tottering Russian economy is clear. Assuming China continues to wisely decline to throw Putin a war material lifeline, Russia will fall further and further behind Western production abilities. This classic "American way of war," which succeeded in both World War II and ultimately in the Cold War, keeps the odds in favor of the Ukrainians.

I think this retired admiral and Carlyle Group vice-chairman gets two things wrong here, the likelihood of this war being settled within 12 to 18 months, well before the US/NATO industrial apparatus is fully mobilized, is pretty high, given the current depletion level of the Ukrainian army in trained soldiers, ammunition and critical equipment including AA equipment.

The Russians have a big headstart in their current production capacity, this factior is dictating their military strategy, which is to conduct this conflict as a war of attrition that relies on standoff weapons including artillery, drones and smart bombs, where they have a big edge through this year at the very least.

The other point he gets wrong is that China will back Russia, should Russia have critical needs in inputs like ball bearings, chips and optical electronic components at the very least. These are components that are easily shipped by land from China. China is facing an increasing hostile stance from the US with the escalation in Taiwan and the break in the historic US one China policy, so they are not likely to kee supplying Russia with those needed inputs, and perhaps even scale up their support with ammunition, drones and other materials should the need arise.

At this point it is becoming increasingly clear that there is no military solution for Ukraine, and that they are likely to be in a much more difficult negotiation position down the line, not to mention the additional tens or even hundreds of thousands of additional casualties they are likely to sustain this year if this grind of a war keeps going. That is the reality that unfortunately analysts and insiders like the author of the article above are refusing to accept.

Unit2Sucks
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Lots of news today.

First - another apartment building in Ukraine was hit with a Russian stealth cruise missile murdering dozens of civilians, including children. I'm sure the Putin supporters are enjoying the success their side has achieved in murdering civilians. Maybe they will falsely claim that it was Ukraine's fault like they did with that one apartment building a few months ago.



And Prigozhin is back in the news. He recently acknowledged both that Wagner is at risk of failing due to insufficient ammo and that the kill ratio is 5 to 1 in favor of Ukraine. This all comes down to what informed people have been saying for months - Russia has expended a lot of ammunition and artillery but does so wantonly and without much strategic design or impact. This is what happens when you have a bunch of poorly trained people with no strategic command or NCOs who know what they are doing. They get very little bang for the buck - except when they are terrorizing and murdering civilians, of course.

I'm sure the ignored shills will respond in force with more misinformation once they get their marching orders.





movielover
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This Swamp creature makes my head hurt, especially after listening to the author of five books, Colonel McGregor.

The term is surge capacity. We (and NATO) had insufficient stock piles to provoke war with Russia, and zero surge capacity. Colonel McGregor says this has been known for decades. They produced no practical answer.
movielover
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golden sloth
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Cal88 said:

Good article on the state of industrial warfare in this conflict:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-04-28/ukraine-and-the-pentagon-are-using-ammo-far-faster-than-us-makes-it

excerpts:


Quote:

Ukraine Is Running Out of Ammo. So Is the US.
America's industrial base is struggling with supply chains and a shortage of workers while the Pentagon contracts are piling up.

As the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's military commander over a decade ago, I would often look deep into logistics and supply chains as I contemplated our combat operations in Afghanistan, the Balkans, Libya and counterpiracy. We felt comfortable that the overall Western defense industrial base which supports over $1.2 trillion in collective military budgets for the 31 NATO nations could handle those conflicts with relative ease.

But what made me nervous a decade ago was the possibility of great power conflict in Europe notably a potential flare-up with the Russian federation. While the democratic allies enjoy an overwhelming capability and inventory advantage (Russia's total defense budget is under $70 billion, one-tenth of NATO's at best), the Russians have a competent industrial base, lots of raw materials, and can draw on conscript labor to man the machines in their foundries and factories.

A number of analyses and war simulations are trying to project where the critical pain points will occur. Guns, missiles and ammunition especially howitzer shells are of most concern. Notable among the stockpiles running low are the 155-mm gun rounds that have emerged as the key offensive punch for the Ukrainians. Several analysts believe that Ukraine is burning through a year's worth of US prewar production monthly.

While the Department of Defense will continue to protect its own war reserves, the excess armament levels stockpiled for contingencies beyond basic needs of the US war plans are very low. And it is not just howitzer rounds: The high-performance HIMARS rockets are in short supply as well,

...While there will be some pinching in specific global commercial supply chains (e.g., electronics, construction materials, some minerals), the overall capacity to outproduce the tottering Russian economy is clear. Assuming China continues to wisely decline to throw Putin a war material lifeline, Russia will fall further and further behind Western production abilities. This classic "American way of war," which succeeded in both World War II and ultimately in the Cold War, keeps the odds in favor of the Ukrainians.

I think this retired admiral and Carlyle Group vice-chairman gets two things wrong here, the likelihood of this war being settled within 12 to 18 months, well before the US/NATO industrial apparatus is fully mobilized, is pretty high, given the current depletion level of the Ukrainian army in trained soldiers, ammunition and critical equipment including AA equipment.

The Russians have a big headstart in their current production capacity, this factior is dictating their military strategy, which is to conduct this conflict as a war of attrition that relies on standoff weapons including artillery, drones and smart bombs, where they have a big edge through this year at the very least.

The other point he gets wrong is that China will back Russia, should Russia have critical needs in inputs like ball bearings, chips and optical electronic components at the very least. These are components that are easily shipped by land from China. China is facing an increasing hostile stance from the US with the escalation in Taiwan and the break in the historic US one China policy, so they are not likely to kee supplying Russia with those needed inputs, and perhaps even scale up their support with ammunition, drones and other materials should the need arise.

At this point it is becoming increasingly clear that there is no military solution for Ukraine, and that they are likely to be in a much more difficult negotiation position down the line, not to mention the additional tens or even hundreds of thousands of additional casualties they are likely to sustain this year if this grind of a war keeps going. That is the reality that unfortunately analysts and insiders like the author of the article above are refusing to accept.




No. The reason the Russians are trying to make this a war of attrition is because they are too inept to pull off a western style war of maneuver. They attempted that in the first weeks of the war with their thunder run on Kyiv. Of course that failed miserably.

They then tried to turn to the only way Russia has ever won a war, and throw waves of their sons and daughters at the the enemy and outlast them. While killing civilians for no real reason other than general bloodlust.

Of course that method failed too as their winter offensive was completely impotent and unable to penetrate any Ukrainian defenses and make any sort of strategic gains.

Now Russia is pooping their pants not knowing what to do as they cant make any progress.
golden sloth
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movielover said:

This Swamp creature makes my head hurt, especially after listening to the author of five books, Colonel McGregor.

The term is surge capacity. We (and NATO) had insufficient stock piles to provoke war with Russia, and zero surge capacity. Colonel McGregor says this has been known for decades. They produced no practical answer.


Except NATO did not provoke this war. Russia chose to have this war when they declared Ukrainians as not a real people and subsequently invaded. It's not NATO's fault Russia wants to genocide ukraine and steal their land.
golden sloth
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movielover said:




Yea, I'm not looking towards comedians for any sort of insights on geopolitics. That is like asking a 5 year old how to finance a house. It's pure stupidity.
movielover
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golden sloth said:

movielover said:




Yea, I'm not looking towards comedians for any sort of insights on geopolitics. That is like asking a 5 year old how to finance a house. It's pure stupidity.


That's exactly the problem with Ukraine's cross-dressing comedian!
movielover
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1 to 5 potential KIA ---> Reading comprehension problem.
BearHunter
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movielover said:

golden sloth said:



Yea, I'm not looking towards comedians for any sort of insights on geopolitics. That is like asking a 5 year old how to finance a house. It's pure stupidity.


That's exactly the problem with Ukraine's cross-dressing comedian!


Zelenskyy could ride on a horse shirtless but Putin could never pull off a white striped suit with a matching fedora.

Cal88
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BearHunter said:



Zelenskyy could ride on a horse shirtless but Putin could never pull off a white striped suit with a matching fedora.

That wouldn't be the shirtless or dancing act that got Zelensky (in)famous...

BearHunter
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Cal88 said:

BearHunter said:



Zelenskyy could ride on a horse shirtless but Putin could never pull off a white striped suit with a matching fedora.

That wouldn't be the shirtless or dancing act that got Zelensky (in)famous...


Zelensky full monty. Who needs a green t-shirt?
Big C
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golden sloth said:

movielover said:




Yea, I'm not looking towards comedians for any sort of insights on geopolitics. That is like asking a 5 year old how to finance a house. It's pure stupidity.

Serious question: Who are some people to whom you are looking for insights on geopolitics?
movielover
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