dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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How about those 3 amigos?

These 3 American men have invaded 9 countries in 23 years, killed 11 million civilians and no one calls them 'war criminals'
🤔 pic.twitter.com/h6gJ2B4WI4

— Richard (@ricwe123) January 4, 2023

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Iraq was a massive f***-up and we should never forgive Bush for that. Even given that, it's not like the US actually wanted to annex Iraq as official territory or something. It's not the same as what Putin is doing in Ukraine.

The rest are relatively limited actions that don't come anywhere close to the wholesale invasion happening in Ukraine right now. Your deflections are pathetic.

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I don't know. We get to invade any country, any time we want, even under false pretenses for the purposes of regime change (Iraq, pretty much also Vietnam... haven't looked closely enough to see if there are any more)?

Putin's invasion of Ukraine might be the most egregious (again, I don't know, how many people died in Vietnam?) and I am in no way whatsoever supporting him or his actions (and we are right to be supporting Ukraine). But while I like to think that my own country is "the good guys" -- and in this situation we are -- a look at our history tells me that we are not always so good.

There was a time in each of our invasions where they were strongly supported by the American people, largely because of government propaganda. (Barbara Lee: profile in courage)

I think the United States is a great country that has also proven to have had great flaws.

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And again: I generally do not support such actions by the US. But people like Cal88 are only using them as a way to deflect and distract from what Putin and his ilk are doing, to act like it's all fair and equivalent. No it isn't.

Just look at what he did above: posts a picture of Clinton, Bush, and Obama and then follows up with graphics detailing US military operations in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. What does any of that have to do with those guys? Nothing, it is just a big distraction and smokescreen.

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Yes his propaganda memes are so bad. He's got that picture with Bill Clinton and the others claiming 11 million dead. His next post shows the very modest foreign interventions under Clinton. How many millions were killed by the U.S. in the 1994 Haiti intervention?

Many, many, many thousands more of civilians were killed during Trump compared to Clinton. The Clinton Presidency was the most peaceful period for America in my life (up until Biden).

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dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Yeah, there are cultural divides in a lot of countries, including the United States. That doesn't mean that if Alaska doesn't vote for Joe Biden that Russia gets to invade there too.

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The cultural divide in Ukraine is nothing like that in the US, not even close. If nearly half of the US spoke German since the late 1700s, you might start to approximate the divide in Ukraine.

The USA is a remarkably homogeneous newly settled country, with a highly mobile population, compared to all other large countries, especially those from the old world, where people from the other side of the river or mountain can have a very distinct ethno-linguistic background.

That lack of cultural perspective is one of the main reasons people don't seem to grasp the basic dynamics in post-Soviet and Maidan Coup Ukraine.

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You try to make so much of language. It means nothing. My mother in law grew up in Switzerland and speaks German. She hates the "krauts" (her word, not mine). There can be a lot of reasons why people in Europe learn a language of a country they don't like - or grow not to like.

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You have very little understanding of European national, ethnic and linguistic identity dynamics. The US is its own universe, it is very naive to transpose your particular framework onto the old world.

Switzerland has its own national identity, and they have been the example of a country with different linguistic communities coming together over the last several centuries to form a very united nation. Bern would never contemplate imposing German on the Valais or Ticino the way Kiev has been imposing Galician language and culture on the east and south of Ukraine, not in a million years.

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Yeah, that's why I was referencing my mother in law who grew up in Switzerland. Fact is - you just make stuff up.

Switzerland and Germany are responsible for millions of deaths in WWII

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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How about those 3 amigos?

These 3 American men have invaded 9 countries in 23 years, killed 11 million civilians and no one calls them 'war criminals'
🤔 pic.twitter.com/h6gJ2B4WI4

— Richard (@ricwe123) January 4, 2023

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Iraq was a massive f***-up and we should never forgive Bush for that. Even given that, it's not like the US actually wanted to annex Iraq as official territory or something. It's not the same as what Putin is doing in Ukraine.

The rest are relatively limited actions that don't come anywhere close to the wholesale invasion happening in Ukraine right now. Your deflections are pathetic.

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I don't know. We get to invade any country, any time we want, even under false pretenses for the purposes of regime change (Iraq, pretty much also Vietnam... haven't looked closely enough to see if there are any more)?

Putin's invasion of Ukraine might be the most egregious (again, I don't know, how many people died in Vietnam?) and I am in no way whatsoever supporting him or his actions (and we are right to be supporting Ukraine). But while I like to think that my own country is "the good guys" -- and in this situation we are -- a look at our history tells me that we are not always so good.

There was a time in each of our invasions where they were strongly supported by the American people, largely because of government propaganda. (Barbara Lee: profile in courage)

I think the United States is a great country that has also proven to have had great flaws.

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And again: I generally do not support such actions by the US. But people like Cal88 are only using them as a way to deflect and distract from what Putin and his ilk are doing, to act like it's all fair and equivalent. No it isn't.

Just look at what he did above: posts a picture of Clinton, Bush, and Obama and then follows up with graphics detailing US military operations in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. What does any of that have to do with those guys? Nothing, it is just a big distraction and smokescreen.

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Yes his propaganda memes are so bad. He's got that picture with Bill Clinton and the others claiming 11 million dead. His next post shows the very modest foreign interventions under Clinton. How many millions were killed by the U.S. in the 1994 Haiti intervention?

Many, many, many thousands more of civilians were killed during Trump compared to Clinton. The Clinton Presidency was the most peaceful period for America in my life (up until Biden).

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I guess you can pat yourself on the back knowing that the total body count of these 3 presidents might only be 5 or 6 millions instead of 11. You can argue about the number, but not the ballpark.

Here's a data point, under Clinton it was widely acknowledged that the sanctions on Iraq alone killed 500,000 Iraqi babies.


As far as Haiti is concerned, one of the people recently killed by the US is their sitting president. The Monroe Doctrine is still very much in place, with the assassination of Haitian president Jovenel Mose, or the overthrow of the Guatemalan democratically-elected government, also in 2014, engineered by Hillary Clinton's State Dept.

Bringing out the history of US imperialism is entirely relevant here, because there has been a lot of continuity, from the time Walker barged in into Central America to install the first banana republics to the assassination and overthrow of democratically elected presidents like Moise and Zelaya.

The difference today is that the propaganda is better, repackaged in a human rights message, with people like Samantha Power and Susan Rice providing a softer image for what still amount to neoconservative military interventionism.

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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How about those 3 amigos?

These 3 American men have invaded 9 countries in 23 years, killed 11 million civilians and no one calls them 'war criminals'
🤔 pic.twitter.com/h6gJ2B4WI4

— Richard (@ricwe123) January 4, 2023

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Iraq was a massive f***-up and we should never forgive Bush for that. Even given that, it's not like the US actually wanted to annex Iraq as official territory or something. It's not the same as what Putin is doing in Ukraine.

The rest are relatively limited actions that don't come anywhere close to the wholesale invasion happening in Ukraine right now. Your deflections are pathetic.

---

I don't know. We get to invade any country, any time we want, even under false pretenses for the purposes of regime change (Iraq, pretty much also Vietnam... haven't looked closely enough to see if there are any more)?

Putin's invasion of Ukraine might be the most egregious (again, I don't know, how many people died in Vietnam?) and I am in no way whatsoever supporting him or his actions (and we are right to be supporting Ukraine). But while I like to think that my own country is "the good guys" -- and in this situation we are -- a look at our history tells me that we are not always so good.

There was a time in each of our invasions where they were strongly supported by the American people, largely because of government propaganda. (Barbara Lee: profile in courage)

I think the United States is a great country that has also proven to have had great flaws.

---

And again: I generally do not support such actions by the US. But people like Cal88 are only using them as a way to deflect and distract from what Putin and his ilk are doing, to act like it's all fair and equivalent. No it isn't.

Just look at what he did above: posts a picture of Clinton, Bush, and Obama and then follows up with graphics detailing US military operations in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. What does any of that have to do with those guys? Nothing, it is just a big distraction and smokescreen.

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Yes his propaganda memes are so bad. He's got that picture with Bill Clinton and the others claiming 11 million dead. His next post shows the very modest foreign interventions under Clinton. How many millions were killed by the U.S. in the 1994 Haiti intervention?

Many, many, many thousands more of civilians were killed during Trump compared to Clinton. The Clinton Presidency was the most peaceful period for America in my life (up until Biden).

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movielover said:

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I read a quote recently where Russia realizes it's really fighting NATO, the US and UK.

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Another sign of Russia's weakening military capabilities: they are running out of ammo and are using up 40 year old shells.

Russian Artillery Fire Down 75 Percent

I'll stand by for movielover's snarky one line non sequiturs and Cal88's wall of charts and graphs explaining why it's really just the Russians playing 7-D chess.

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dimitrig said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Another sign of Russia's weakening military capabilities: they are running out of ammo and are using up 40 year old shells.

Russian Artillery Fire Down 75 Percent

I'll stand by for movielover's snarky one line non sequiturs and Cal88's wall of charts and graphs explaining why it's really just the Russians playing 7-D chess.

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This quote from the head of the Wagner Group:

"Once we conquer our internal bureaucracy and corruption, then we will conquer the Ukrainians and NATO, and then the whole world."

Are they insane?

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Quote:

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Russia suffered another setback earlier this month when Ukrainian forces hit a weapons depot in Makiivka in eastern Ukraine, destroying more Russian supplies and killing scores of Russian troops housed nearby. The strike also raised questions among prominent Russian military bloggers about the basic competence of the Russian military brass, which had apparently decided to house hundreds of Russian troops next to an obuvious Ukrainian target.

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Quote:

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Prigozhin's ambitions are not limited to greater political power, however, the US believes. There are also indications that he wants to take control over the lucrative salt and gypsum from mines near Bakhmut, a senior administration official tells CNN.

"This is consistent with Wagner's modus operandi in Africa, where the group's military activities often function hand in hand with control of mining assets," the official said, adding that the US believes these monetary incentives are driving Prigozhin and Russia's "obsession" with taking Bakhmut.

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A conwoman who fled prosecution in 2 countries before surfacing in Ukraine as the communications director of the Ukrainian International Legion has stolen $millions in aid.

Other fugitives in Ukraine's Int'l Legion include US neo-Nazi murderer Craig Lang.https://t.co/8jJhLpypsg

— Lindsey Snell (@LindseySnell) January 9, 2023

K.Tymoshenko, deputy Head of President’s office, demonstrated his welfare to Ukrainians on Christmas Day. Let me remind you, a bit earlier he was seen driving a brand new €100k Porsche. Kirill’s never had a business, he used to make boring videos for public money before politics pic.twitter.com/qkNhfbH3jv

— Анатолий Шарий (@anatoliisharii) January 7, 2023

Russian military bloggers claim between 500 and 1,000 Ukrainian troops are besieged in a kettle in northern #Soledar with 100 having surrendered so far.

No confirmation so far, but Ukraine's stubborn “this is not true”, despite all visual evidence, also seems rather desperate.

— Julian Röpcke🇺🇦 (@JulianRoepcke) January 11, 2023

"China now perceives a likelihood that Russia will fail to prevail against Ukraine and emerge from the conflict a “minor power”, much diminished economically and diplomatically on the world stage, according to Chinese officials." https://t.co/fj0O7SVTkk

— Erik Meyersson (@emeyersson) January 10, 2023

Quote:

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Mistrust with Moscow

The starting point for Xi's diplomatic reset is a re-evaluation in Beijing about the benefits of its close relationship with Moscow.

China now perceives a likelihood that Russia will fail to prevail against Ukraine and emerge from the conflict a "minor power", much diminished economically and diplomatically on the world stage, according to Chinese officials.

In addition, for all the public professions of bilateral amity, in private some Chinese officials express at least a measure of mistrust towards Putin himself.

Five senior Chinese officials with knowledge of the issue have told the FT at different times over the past nine months that Moscow did not inform Beijing of its intention to launch a full invasion of Ukraine before Putin ordered the attack.

Such views are at odds with the impression given by a joint statement issued by China and Russia on February 4 following a meeting between Xi and Putin in Beijing just 20 days before Russia attacked Ukraine. It proclaimed that there were "no limits to Sino-Russian co-operation . . . no forbidden zones".

No transcript of their conversation has been made public, so exactly what passed between Xi and Putin is unclear. However, one official told the FT that the closest that Putin got to informing Xi was to say that Russia "would not rule out taking whatever measures possible if eastern Ukrainian separatists attack Russian territory and cause humanitarian disasters".

This line was taken by the Chinese side as signalling the potential for some limited military engagement, not the wholesale invasion that Putin launched, the official said.

Evidence to support failures of Chinese understanding, according to Chinese officials, has been the demotion in June of Le Yucheng, who at the time of the invasion was a vice-minister of foreign affairs and the ministry's top Russia expert. Le had been widely spoken of in Chinese official circles as the likely next foreign minister. He now occupies a post as deputy head of the National Radio and Television Administration.

"Le was demoted by two levels of seniority," said one person familiar with the issue. "He was held responsible for the intelligence failure on Russia's invasion."

Whatever the exact nature of what Putin told Xi, Chinese diplomats seeking to rehabilitate China's standing in Europe have in private conversations maintained that Beijing was unaware of Moscow's intention to launch a full invasion, Chinese officials and European diplomats said.

This line is just one strand in a broader strategy aimed at lessening China's sense of isolation and preventing Europe from becoming even closer to the US.

Beijing's main ploy is to attempt to reassure European counterparts that it is willing to use the closeness of its relationship with Moscow to restrain Putin from resorting to the use of nuclear weapons, Chinese and European officials say.

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Quote:

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Building democracy is not an easy task. Doing so while defending against the aggression of a neighboring country makes the job even harder. As U.S. President Joe Biden has announced a global crusade for democracy with anti-corruption as one of its pillars, Ukraine's experience can teach the world a lesson or two.

Despite a deceptive and even pernicious feeling that the country is drowning in more corruption than ever before, the fact is that in some areas, such as transparency or monitoring of public officials' lifestyles, Ukraine is now arguably far ahead of Western countries. As it faces huge corruption and challenges related to the rule of law, it has become the testing ground for bold and innovative solutions.

Ukraine's corruption-related problems go back to the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. When the state-planned economy collapsed, state enterprises went bankrupt and were privatized on the principle of "first come, first serve" amid lawlessness and chaos. This gave birth to oligarchy, which remains a roadblock to Ukraine's progress.

...
Viktor Yanukovych, Ukrainian president from 2010-14, was notable for his pro-Russian policy, building of a kleptocratic regime, and tightening of the screws on freedom of speech and peaceful protests. His refusal to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union in November 2013 and the announcement of Ukraine's drift toward a Russia-led customs union triggered the Revolution of Dignity, which eventually forced Yanukovych to flee in February 2014, opening a new chapter of the country's modern history.

That same month, Russia invaded Ukraine. So this chance for democratization is even more precious given that it is being defended by Ukraine's servicemen fighting every day against Russia's ongoing military aggression.

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It's official—For the first time ever, the European Union now imports more energy from the United States than from Russia! pic.twitter.com/LV6EsP2B0F

— Joey Politano 🏳️‍🌈 (@JosephPolitano) January 11, 2023

Unit2Sucks said:

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I trust that true conservatives will rejoice in this glorious news - USA USA USA!

It's official—For the first time ever, the European Union now imports more energy from the United States than from Russia! pic.twitter.com/LV6EsP2B0F

— Joey Politano 🏳️‍🌈 (@JosephPolitano) January 11, 2023

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Cal88 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Ukraine has a legacy of corruption from the USSR and post-independence Russia. Paul Manafort helped usher in the extremely corrupt Russian puppet government of Yanukovytch. Putin views any anti-corruption efforts as a threat to his business model - he didn't become one of the wealthiest people in the world, if not the wealthiest, through legitimate means, he made his filthy lucre off the backs of the Russian people through the administration of his corrupt kleptocracy.

Pro-Russian people like to talk about Ukraine's corruption (as it has been one of the most corrupt countries in the world) but completely ignore the fact that Russia is even more corrupt and has been inextricably linked to Ukraine's corruption.

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Your knowledge in this subject is very superficial, guided mostly by your very pronounced russophobic tendencies.

Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe, and also the poorest (and that was before the war). That is a fact.

You cannot blame Russia for this, Ukraine has been independent for decades now. Yanukovitch`s successors, "chocolate king" oiligarch Poroshenko and comedian/Kolomoisky product turned billionaire Zelensky are at least as corrupt as their predecessors.

The independent reports from the Pandora Papers from last year revealed that Ukraine had the most entries of any country in the world, and that Zelensky and his political entourage are the nexus of nebulous offshore schemes:

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

Zelensky has mansions in London, Tuscany, Israel and probably south Florida too, his wife dropped $40,000 in just one upscale boutique purchase in her recent visit to Paris.

Ukraine started out as the richest, most advanced state in the USSR. 3 decades later, it is 3 times poorer than Russia per capita. Both Russia and its former Soviet block neighbors have left it in the dust. Ukraine was the major industrial pole of the USSR, with sectors like aerospace, shipbuilding, steel, agro-industry based there, and an excellent energy grid. All these sectors have rotted away the last decades, nothing has been built since save for a small software industry around Kiev.

Putin has redressed the finances and economy of his country, paying off the crippling debt that the World Bank/IMF etc had charged Russia with under Yeltsin, nationalizing all oil and gas and setting these proceeds into a national fund now worth hundreds of billions, building up his country's gold and currency reserves, reigning in Russian oligarchs, making massive infrastructure investments in Russia including over a dozen modern airports, highways, rail, public housing, agricultural infrastructure, domestic industry from auto to aerospace to machinery.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/03/russias-infrastructure-overhaul-explained-a64839
https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/russia-sets-out-massive-infrastructure-growth-plan

Russia is going to pass Germany this decade as the fifth largest economy in the world PPP, behind China, the US, India and Japan.



Putin is not interested in stashing billions that he could enjoy in some tropical paradise in his late life, he is mainly a workaholic Russian patriot with a huge ego who is motivated by his legacy as the builder of modern Russia, very much like China's Xi.

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Cal88 said:

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calpoly said:

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Once again you are clearly over inflating the Russian economy. If you look at the GDP (PPP) per capita, Russia is 55th in the world.

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...and by that same measure, China is 72nd, lulz!!

Diablowags would definitely not hire you to mow his lawn.

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