Unit2Sucks said:

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There are a couple of questionable assumptions that are being made here. First is the assumption that all wars end with a peace treaty. That hasn't been true for a while. Here's a 10-year old primer but the dynamics and trends haven't changed.

Second is the assumption that Ukraine believes Russia will adhere to any treaty that would be negotiated and signed. Russia violated the 1994 Budapest agreement and never had any intention of adhering to the Minsk agreements (which, as I've stated previously in this thread, Russia claims not to be a party to or be bound by). Russia installed a puppet corrupt government led by Yanukovytch (which disingenuous Russian propagandists and shills like to say was "democratically elected" and which famously involved the oligarch's best friend - Paul Manafort).

I'm sure Russia would love to lick its wounds and agree to some sort of peace deal but that wouldn't give Ukraine any comfort, it would just serve as a respite until Putin (assuming he is then in power) sees an opportunity to strike again. Ultimately Putin and the current leadership of Russia don't believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation and unless something very significant changes they will continue to take steps to eliminate that sovereignty whether by force or by installation of a puppet government - they seem to be attracted to both options depending on whichever they think is easiest.

---

To summarize, you feel the following:

1) The posters you are talking with here think that all wars end with peace treaties; and
2) Russia will not honor a peace treaty because they will not stop until they have full control of all of Ukraine by conquest or have installed a puppet government there. You thing they don't recognize any of it as separate from Russia.

I disagree, but we all have our opinions.

I did mention "negotiate a peace", but specifically did not use the word "treaty". The problem for Ukraine is, how much longer can they keep this going? But Russia is not doing all that much better, they're just bigger. If the two sides stopped fighting for a while, maybe Russia would take stock of their situation -- perhaps with a new leader -- and realize their folly: What has this gotten them?

In the meantime, we should and will continue to support Ukraine, but above all, the war needs to be contained.

Big C said:

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I did mention "negotiate a peace", but specifically did not use the word "treaty". The problem for Ukraine is, how much longer can they keep this going? But Russia is not doing all that much better, they're just bigger. If the two sides stopped fighting for a while, maybe Russia would take stock of their situation -- perhaps with a new leader -- and realize their folly: What has this gotten them?

In the meantime, we should and will continue to support Ukraine, but above all, the war needs to be contained.

---

Look on the bright side, maybe Russia's corrupt military will go to war with its own corrupt mercs.

But to your broader point, this was is dumb and never should have happened. It's only happening because Putin does not believe that Ukraine has a right to sovereignty. He does not believe there should be any Ukrainian identity whatsoever. There is a lot of hyperbolic chatter here about how Ukraine is repressing Russian language and culture but Putin wants to literally erase Ukraine and the ethnic identity of its people from the earth.

As such, why would Putin ever adhere to any "deal" with Ukrainian leadership if he didn't have to? He has shown in the past he won't, so what would make him change? Losing this war means an end to Ukrainian sovereignty and a destruction of their ethnic and cultural identity, whether it happens this year or further down the road. We've already seen mass looting of cultural treasures and other steps taken in this direction by Russian forces. The Putin cheerleaders want you to focus on every bad thing that Ukraine has done (and, don't get me wrong, it's a corrupt ****hole country with tons of problems - much of them caused by Russia and Putin's meddling) but what they will never do is address Russia's responsibility and culpability for everything. They don't want you to know how bad things are in Russia or that people don't have to accept the Russian narrative. Why they've chosen the positions they have we can only speculate but it's pretty clear that they aren't worth trying to engage with. They are living in a make believe world where Russia is an enlightened liberator freeing Ukraine from Nazi hordes. Even the official Russian propaganda no longer pretends this is about woke nazis, Russian suppression or anything like that.

This is a land grab and an attempt to eliminate sovereignty for financial and other reasons, nothing more.

I reported before that the rivalry between the Russian military and PMC Wagner will eventually conclude in a direct confrontation. The battle of Bakhmut makes no strategic sense other then for Prigozhin to promote himself. Gerassimov might want to undermine that. Popcorn time. https://t.co/RWNaUBdCqQ

— (((Tendar))) (@Tendar) December 26, 2022

Start with a new leader bc Putin's approval rating is somewhere in the 80% range?

A decent amount of Russians were actually unhappy that Putin didn't take action since 2014 bc of attacks in Eastern Ukraine against ethnic Russians, various Nazi groups, etc. And Ukraine cutting off water to Crimea.

oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

---

There are a couple of questionable assumptions that are being made here. First is the assumption that all wars end with a peace treaty. That hasn't been true for a while. Here's a 10-year old primer but the dynamics and trends haven't changed.

Second is the assumption that Ukraine believes Russia will adhere to any treaty that would be negotiated and signed. Russia violated the 1994 Budapest agreement and never had any intention of adhering to the Minsk agreements (which, as I've stated previously in this thread, Russia claims not to be a party to or be bound by). Russia installed a puppet corrupt government led by Yanukovytch (which disingenuous Russian propagandists and shills like to say was "democratically elected" and which famously involved the oligarch's best friend - Paul Manafort).

I'm sure Russia would love to lick its wounds and agree to some sort of peace deal but that wouldn't give Ukraine any comfort, it would just serve as a respite until Putin (assuming he is then in power) sees an opportunity to strike again. Ultimately Putin and the current leadership of Russia don't believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation and unless something very significant changes they will continue to take steps to eliminate that sovereignty whether by force or by installation of a puppet government - they seem to be attracted to both options depending on whichever they think is easiest.

---

To summarize, you feel the following:

1) The posters you are talking with here think that all wars end with peace treaties; and
2) Russia will not honor a peace treaty because they will not stop until they have full control of all of Ukraine by conquest or have installed a puppet government there. You thing they don't recognize any of it as separate from Russia.

I disagree, but we all have our opinions.

---

Putin literally said Ukraine shouldn't be a separate country. Should I not believe that is his view?

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/02/upending-putins-russia-ukraine-myth/

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

There are a couple of questionable assumptions that are being made here. First is the assumption that all wars end with a peace treaty. That hasn't been true for a while. Here's a 10-year old primer but the dynamics and trends haven't changed.

Second is the assumption that Ukraine believes Russia will adhere to any treaty that would be negotiated and signed. Russia violated the 1994 Budapest agreement and never had any intention of adhering to the Minsk agreements (which, as I've stated previously in this thread, Russia claims not to be a party to or be bound by). Russia installed a puppet corrupt government led by Yanukovytch (which disingenuous Russian propagandists and shills like to say was "democratically elected" and which famously involved the oligarch's best friend - Paul Manafort).

I'm sure Russia would love to lick its wounds and agree to some sort of peace deal but that wouldn't give Ukraine any comfort, it would just serve as a respite until Putin (assuming he is then in power) sees an opportunity to strike again. Ultimately Putin and the current leadership of Russia don't believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation and unless something very significant changes they will continue to take steps to eliminate that sovereignty whether by force or by installation of a puppet government - they seem to be attracted to both options depending on whichever they think is easiest.

---

To summarize, you feel the following:

1) The posters you are talking with here think that all wars end with peace treaties; and
2) Russia will not honor a peace treaty because they will not stop until they have full control of all of Ukraine by conquest or have installed a puppet government there. You thing they don't recognize any of it as separate from Russia.

I disagree, but we all have our opinions.

---

Putin literally said Ukraine shouldn't be a separate country. Should I not believe that is his view?

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/02/upending-putins-russia-ukraine-myth/

---

That may be a goal of his. Hopefully, he now knows that isn't happening. It isn't all or nothing.

---

And do we have any indication that Putin has changed his mind on this subject?

sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

There are a couple of questionable assumptions that are being made here. First is the assumption that all wars end with a peace treaty. That hasn't been true for a while. Here's a 10-year old primer but the dynamics and trends haven't changed.

Second is the assumption that Ukraine believes Russia will adhere to any treaty that would be negotiated and signed. Russia violated the 1994 Budapest agreement and never had any intention of adhering to the Minsk agreements (which, as I've stated previously in this thread, Russia claims not to be a party to or be bound by). Russia installed a puppet corrupt government led by Yanukovytch (which disingenuous Russian propagandists and shills like to say was "democratically elected" and which famously involved the oligarch's best friend - Paul Manafort).

I'm sure Russia would love to lick its wounds and agree to some sort of peace deal but that wouldn't give Ukraine any comfort, it would just serve as a respite until Putin (assuming he is then in power) sees an opportunity to strike again. Ultimately Putin and the current leadership of Russia don't believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation and unless something very significant changes they will continue to take steps to eliminate that sovereignty whether by force or by installation of a puppet government - they seem to be attracted to both options depending on whichever they think is easiest.

---

To summarize, you feel the following:

1) The posters you are talking with here think that all wars end with peace treaties; and
2) Russia will not honor a peace treaty because they will not stop until they have full control of all of Ukraine by conquest or have installed a puppet government there. You thing they don't recognize any of it as separate from Russia.

I disagree, but we all have our opinions.

---

Putin literally said Ukraine shouldn't be a separate country. Should I not believe that is his view?

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/02/upending-putins-russia-ukraine-myth/

---

That may be a goal of his. Hopefully, he now knows that isn't happening. It isn't all or nothing.

---

And do we have any indication that Putin has changed his mind on this subject?

---

Do we have any indication that the only thing he is willing to accept is possession or rule over all of Ukraine?

Option 1: if he tried to take all of Ukraine, he would likely have never-ending civil war.

Option 2: have the Donbas (in some form), and Crimea acknowledged as Russian.

Option 3: Option 2, plus a 100 kilometer neutral or independent area - safe zone - between the Donbas and Kiev.

Option 4: some in the pro-Ukranian side still want all of the Donbas, Crimea, and Putin deposed. This doesn't seem reasonable for many reasons.

movielover said:

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Start with a new leader bc Putin's approval rating is somewhere in the 80% range?

A decent amount of Russians were actually unhappy that Putin didn't take action since 2014 bc of attacks in Eastern Ukraine against ethnic Russians, various Nazi groups, etc. And Ukraine cutting off water to Crimea.

---

Yeah, I believe those polling numbers! Surprised it wasn't 90%... and not because Russians love their leader.

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

There are a couple of questionable assumptions that are being made here. First is the assumption that all wars end with a peace treaty. That hasn't been true for a while. Here's a 10-year old primer but the dynamics and trends haven't changed.

Second is the assumption that Ukraine believes Russia will adhere to any treaty that would be negotiated and signed. Russia violated the 1994 Budapest agreement and never had any intention of adhering to the Minsk agreements (which, as I've stated previously in this thread, Russia claims not to be a party to or be bound by). Russia installed a puppet corrupt government led by Yanukovytch (which disingenuous Russian propagandists and shills like to say was "democratically elected" and which famously involved the oligarch's best friend - Paul Manafort).

I'm sure Russia would love to lick its wounds and agree to some sort of peace deal but that wouldn't give Ukraine any comfort, it would just serve as a respite until Putin (assuming he is then in power) sees an opportunity to strike again. Ultimately Putin and the current leadership of Russia don't believe Ukraine has a right to exist as a sovereign nation and unless something very significant changes they will continue to take steps to eliminate that sovereignty whether by force or by installation of a puppet government - they seem to be attracted to both options depending on whichever they think is easiest.

---

To summarize, you feel the following:

1) The posters you are talking with here think that all wars end with peace treaties; and
2) Russia will not honor a peace treaty because they will not stop until they have full control of all of Ukraine by conquest or have installed a puppet government there. You thing they don't recognize any of it as separate from Russia.

I disagree, but we all have our opinions.

---

Putin literally said Ukraine shouldn't be a separate country. Should I not believe that is his view?

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/02/upending-putins-russia-ukraine-myth/

---

That may be a goal of his. Hopefully, he now knows that isn't happening. It isn't all or nothing.

---

And do we have any indication that Putin has changed his mind on this subject?

---

Do we have any indication that the only thing he is willing to accept is possession or rule over all of Ukraine?

---

Well, the fact that he originally sent his tanks straight for Kiev seems to say a lot. They didn't only want the Donbas.

I believe they were attending a Zelensky comedy night.

movielover said:

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I believe they were attending a Zelensky comedy night.

---

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

The T-34 tanks from Laos are most likely destined as working museum pieces and WW2 Victory Day military parades. These commemorations which take place in every Russian city across their 11 time zones are incredibly important for a country that has lost over 20 million people fighting the Nazis.

The other motivation here might be the sale of more modern tanks and other weapon systems to Laos, which this purchase could facilitate. SE Asia is an important strategic region for Russia.

The Russians have a stockpile of several thousands of T-64s, T-72s and T-80s. They are refurbishing many of the later models for use in their war, along with the production of hundreds of new T-90s. They don`t need to import WW2-era T-34s for purely military purposes. The coverage of this story is another great example of low-grade wartime propaganda.

The Cuban Missile Crisis was ended by diplomacy, not a showdown. The US regime could stop this war and save the world by agreeing to not expand NATO into Ukraine, but they don't want to stop it because it's been a project of the US to expand NATO since 1992.
Jeffrey Sachs pic.twitter.com/8SBScozj80

— Maria ⏳ (@real1maria) January 27, 2023

dimitrig said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Russia is continuing its escalation but to what end? Is anyone still willing to pretend that they are destroying Ukraine to save it?

Russian pundits are in panic mode and they have all reason to be. What amazes me is that how this conversation between Solovyov and Alex Kots reflects the obvious. Russia is in huge trouble and they feel it maybe better than anyone in Kremlin.#Ukraine https://t.co/DvdtwGjPQ3

— (((Tendar))) (@Tendar) January 27, 2023

And lol. Wonder when they will get bronze era tools.

Russia acquires some tanks from Laos that were built in 1944 and were given to Laos by Vietnam after their war. Things are going well. pic.twitter.com/0jiPAg7Cr4

— Ron Filipkowski 🇺🇦 (@RonFilipkowski) January 27, 2023

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Maybe equipment is to backfill other equipment being sent to the front.

It doesn't have to be a modern tank to be used at a reserve unit in Siberia somewhere.

Still a little sad, though.

---

The tank thing was an aside. The main point of my post was that even the top propagandist in Russia is fed up with the divergence between reality and his propaganda marching orders. Of course that guy is still making ridiculous claims about using their nukes but he actually criticized the military and their strategy, something you still don't see from most pro Russian jingoism's.

As you can tell, third party shills are still devoted to the Kremlin's message.

"Third party shill" Henry Kissinger said land for peace was needed 9 months ago. Now he has flip flopped.

Unit2Sucks said:

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dimitrig said:

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Maybe equipment is to backfill other equipment being sent to the front.

It doesn't have to be a modern tank to be used at a reserve unit in Siberia somewhere.

Still a little sad, though.

---

The tank thing was an aside. The main point of my post was that even the top propagandist in Russia is fed up with the divergence between reality and his propaganda marching orders. Of course that guy is still making ridiculous claims about using their nukes but he actually criticized the military and their strategy, something you still don't see from most pro Russian jingoism's.

As you can tell, third party shills are still devoted to the Kremlin's message.

---

The tweet you`ve quoted above is completely off-base on two counts:

-That guy `Tendar`claims that the war is not going well for Russia, that Russia is "n huge trouble" and "n panic mode" when in fact Russia is winning on the front, and is starting to reap the benefits from being on the right end of a very lopsided war of attrition.

Things are going well for Russia in the Donbass, and beyond that, as you are starting to see signs of the Zelensky regime starting to unravel, with the resignation of its top propagandist/strategist Aleksey Arestovich, and the round of high-level purges, kind of similar to the late-stage South Vietnam political purges. As well the 10th or 11th round of mobilization in Ukraine is not going well, they are having to pry middle-aged fathers at gunpoint in their home kitchens and pick off men off the streets.

Mobilization is different than conscription, and conscription is different than press ganging. The latter is what Ukraine is being reduced to. https://t.co/Pw8UNgsNKA

— Big Serge ☦️🇺🇸🇷🇺 (@witte_sergei) January 25, 2023

Mobilization hunt for any male who is seen on the streets in #Ukraine

Bonus points for those who understand the song. It was made by the Ukrainian side.
Ppl do understand what is happening to them pic.twitter.com/LWOCsVEFsM

— Arthur Morgan (@ArthurM40330824) January 26, 2023

Another episode of forced mobilization in Ukraine’s Odessa. The recruiters carry blank draft notices and force people to fill in their name and sign - an illegal practice under the Ukrainian law, but Ukraine hasn’t been governed by law since the 2014 Fascist coup. pic.twitter.com/QTulhnzoND

— Venik (@venik44) January 22, 2023

🇭🇺Journalists from Hungary report that the Kiev regime is conducting ethnic cleansing by forcibly mobilizing Hungarians — Mass mobilization of Hungarians has begun in the Transcarpathian region of Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/HmzGU8Qpbw

— Zlatti71 (@djuric_zlatko) January 23, 2023

#Ukrainian soldier is angry bc when they were burying his comrade the mobilization unit stopped the funeral procession and started to find men to give out summons to. He says: if you keep it up someone will break your heads.#Ukraine ppl starting to understand they are sacrificed pic.twitter.com/fjopoh6IY4

— Arthur Morgan (@ArthurM40330824) January 27, 2023

This is my favorite so far, Ukrainian man walking on a suburban street sees military car coming, immediately jumps across fences:

The mobilization has completely discredited itself, and such videos only confirm that there are almost no people willing to fight in Ukraine.
Ternopil: Ukrainians, seeing a car with the inscription ЗСУ, run away.
This is a super case for discrediting. pic.twitter.com/zeTpq79QMj

— ВИКИ СЛАЙД (@VSlajd) January 26, 2023

-The other thing on that "Tendar" tweet above that was very wrong about is that he spins the criticisms of Solovyov, a Russian Fox equivalent shock jock TV host, as a sign or a proof that Russia has "war failures". In fact Solovyov's main criticism of Putin and Russian military leaders is that they are too soft, too passive and too meek. Solovyov thinks that they should have levelled Kiev, Lviv and Dnipro last year, and maybe even Warsaw and Berlin too for good measure.

"Tendar" interprets this daylight between a TV shock jock and Russian military policy as some kind of failure. Thankfully people like Solovyov aren't in charge in Russia today.

More scenes of forced conscriptions of Ukrainians, getting shanghaied to the Donbass meat grinder, adding to the 450,000 Ukrainian KIA, MIA and wounded:

What mobilization looks like in Ukraine. Odessa. pic.twitter.com/44HaaI5QRJ

— Gloop Serious (@GloopSerious) January 23, 2023

Ukrainian MP squads are using unmarked cars, ambulances etc to pounce on unsuspecting men^

Father being pried away from his wife and daughter on the street:

And again Odessa Ukraine, forced mobilization. pic.twitter.com/1ZObaLbevL

— ВИКИ СЛАЙД (@VSlajd) January 26, 2023

More “mobilization” in Odessa. Ukraine is busy preparing it’s much-advertised “Spring offensive.” Probably a future Abrams driver. pic.twitter.com/VaLxgukiMz

— Venik (@venik44) January 27, 2023

🇺🇦 Mobilization in Krivoy Rog, where Zelensky was born in his time. By loud cries of joy, you yourself can assess the intensity of the desire to serve in the Armed Forces of Ukraine.#UkraineRussiaWar #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/fafc6dihfQ

— George A. Hamalian (@gahamalian) January 24, 2023

As the mass mobilization in Ukraine continues, the cities experience a shortage of public utilities and public transport drivers.

Local officials speak of a severe shortage of electricians, tractor drivers, mechanics, engineers, technicians and janitors. pic.twitter.com/1Idv6lbrp2

— Russian Market (@runews) January 28, 2023

The Ukrainian regime is keeping a large part of its fighting force, among its most ideologically-driven Azov types, in the cities in order to conduct such sweeps and to keep a lid on their population. They also have Soviet-style soldiers just behind the frontline who are going to make sure that the men they've swept up at gunpoint fight to the death.

Thoughts?

Remember, Russia wasn't an enemy before the Neocons of the Obama administration engineered a coup in Maidan in 2014 and installed a Neo Nazi infiltrated gov in Kiev hostile to Russia and Russian speaking citizens of Ukraine. 2/

— Sophia (@les_politiques) January 28, 2023

Russia poses no threat to the USA. Neither did Syria or Libya. HRC and Bush look like idiots; HRC and Obama like narcissists. Trump is the only recent President I can recall who didn't get us into war.

HistoryLegends has a new, informative tank video out. While other sources claim tank deliveries will be slow, including some being newly built, HL believes they're already in the pipeline. (Good for Ukraine.) HL delves into the realities of deploying tanks, and the 500-mile journey for major repairs (to Poland). One American source claimed maintenance on the Abrams was considerable just during peacetime maneuvers.

movielover said:

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And what happens to the Ukrainian birth rate when this finally ends? Does the Church have to allow bigamy to build back their population?

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A lot of young Ukrainian women have recently moved to Europe, this kind of addresses any gender imbalance due to men dying on the front.

Ukraine had a population of over 50 million in the 1990s, now it's less than half that, and maybe around 20 million in the areas held by their current government. A lot of the young people have already left in the last two decades as a result of lack of economic opportunities due to corruption, with the country's industrial base having wilted away. That is why Ukraine has a per capita income 3 times lower than Russia and its other EE neighbors.

Ukraine is going to force-conscript its expatriate men in Poland, Slovakia and Roumania. They will get full cooperation with the Polish authorities, who would rather have Ukrainians dying fighting Russia than their own men.

Europeans catch Ukrs to be sent to slaughter#Ukrainian refugees are being hunted not only in #Latvia but also in #Poland & the #Netherlands. Local militaries are actively collecting lists of Ukrs (pictured). Those who fall under mobilization will be deported back to #Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/iB7poINkQ6

— Omar Dibo (@OmarDib70) January 28, 2023

Forced mobilization: Relatives of the servicemen from Poltava are asking for HELP

Appeal of wives and mothers of servicemen of the 116th brigade of the territorial defense forces to the military administration of Poltava and the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of Ukraine pic.twitter.com/PXmO4qfuxX

— SOS-UK-Report (@sosReports) January 28, 2023

Message from women from the central Ukraininan city of Poltava whose husbands and sons are stationed in the Solidar/Bakhmut area are demanding answers from the Ukrainian government:

"The 144, 146, and 148 battalions of the 116th brigade were defeated and suffered heavy losses near Soledar. There are no officers in the ranks and no weapons. Soldiers have been in the ranks of the territorial defense since the initial days.

Please return the survivors to their permanent deployment point and provide them with the necessary medical assistance. Most of them are wounded or shell-shocked and are not receiving medical care. They are hungry, cold, and without money. We ask you to sort out this situation."

Unit2Sucks said:

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movielover said:

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And what happens to the Ukrainian birth rate when this finally ends? Does the Church have to allow bigamy to build back their population?

---

Not that you seem to have any compassion for anyone, but Russia has been abducting Ukrainian children (the ones that it hasn't killed through indiscriminate shelling) to help offset it's massive demographic problems. In addition to Russia's low birth rate due to it being a sh(thole country with a deteriorating economy and a fascist government, Russia has experienced incredible brain drain, both before and after their heinous invasion. There have been plenty of stories about both the child abductions and Russia's demographic problems but you may not be familiar due to your reliance on a combination of pro-Russian media, shills and outright fake news.

Of course, Ukraine also has demographic problems including a low birth rate and brain drain. The continued corruptin and meddling from Russia over the decades has taken its toll, even if it hasn't delivered the results that Putin and Manafort (Donald Trump's felon former campaign manager and Reagan disciple) were hoping for.

I don't expect any of this information to change your views on anything, to help you learn anything or to getnerate any sort of compassion for the many victims of the war that you increasingly cheerlead for, but it is what it is.

Do you ever share your views with your fellow aggies or do you save your love of fascist driven war for us?

---

To be fair, he, like others, is advocating for the war to end. You, the warmonger, seem to be the one with no compassion for others. Your childlike response, is "It is Putin's fault there is no peace. There is no culpability on Ukraine or Nato's part to concede anything and make peace because Putin could just stop invading!". Of course it is more nuanced than that, but you consistently spout childlike black or white, us or them views. Life is more complicated. If everyone here could wave a magic wand and Russia immediately retreats, everyone here would.

oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

---

movielover said:

---

And what happens to the Ukrainian birth rate when this finally ends? Does the Church have to allow bigamy to build back their population?

---

Not that you seem to have any compassion for anyone, but Russia has been abducting Ukrainian children (the ones that it hasn't killed through indiscriminate shelling) to help offset it's massive demographic problems. In addition to Russia's low birth rate due to it being a sh(thole country with a deteriorating economy and a fascist government, Russia has experienced incredible brain drain, both before and after their heinous invasion. There have been plenty of stories about both the child abductions and Russia's demographic problems but you may not be familiar due to your reliance on a combination of pro-Russian media, shills and outright fake news.

Of course, Ukraine also has demographic problems including a low birth rate and brain drain. The continued corruptin and meddling from Russia over the decades has taken its toll, even if it hasn't delivered the results that Putin and Manafort (Donald Trump's felon former campaign manager and Reagan disciple) were hoping for.

I don't expect any of this information to change your views on anything, to help you learn anything or to getnerate any sort of compassion for the many victims of the war that you increasingly cheerlead for, but it is what it is.

Do you ever share your views with your fellow aggies or do you save your love of fascist driven war for us?

---

To be fair, he, like others, is advocating for the war to end. You, the warmonger, seem to be the one with no compassion for others. Your childlike response, is "It is Putin's fault there is no peace. There is no culpability on Ukraine or Nato's part to concede anything and make peace because Putin could just stop invading!". Of course it is more nuanced than that, but you consistently spout childlike black or white, us or them views. Life is more complicated. If everyone here could wave a magic wand and Russia immediately retreats, everyone here would.

---

It's incredibly naive to pretend that someone arguing for the war to end on Putin's terms is somehow more in favor of peace than someone arguing that Ukraine is entitled to its sovereignty.

The far right wing Federalist, one of ML's go-to "news" sources, early in the war (and prior to the invasion) criticized Biden for removing sanction from Nordstream 2 and for a policy of appeasement toward Putin. They claimed that Biden was directly responsible for this war because he went too easy on Putin. They also criticized Biden for offering to keep Ukraine out of NATO and to not having any strategic weapons inside Ukraine - the exact things that pro-Putin conservatives in this thread are telling us would have staved off this war. People like that are just working from the answer they want backwards.

The reality is that Putin didn't invade Ukraine because Joe Biden was strong or because he was weak. Putin didn't invade because of the threat of NATO or Ukraine cozying up to the west. Putin didn't invade Ukraine because he was worried about the suppression of Russian speakers or woke Nazis. All of those claims are disingenous and bad faith and we should be skeptical of anyone still making these claims. They were false from the get go and they are laughably false now. Appeasing Putin by agreeing to some stupid minor points won't protect Ukraine or its people. Putin's aim is to engulf the entire country, leverage its resources, prevent it from offering those resources at a lower price to the EU, and provide a new underclass of Russians that he can victimize. If you were paying attention you would see that Putin doesn't indiscriminately recruit his military from his entire country but focuses almost entirely on the poorest regions that are far from Moscow. Ukraine's future in Russia is as another province he can victimize. Just like all of the smart russians have left Russia in droves, Ukraine's brutish existence in Putin's Russia would be grist for the mill of his corrupt kleptocracy. If you were paying attention, by now you would no doubt be aware that Putin88 has made it clear he will never speak ill of Putin, the Kremlin or Russia, but you have never show any trace of suspicion for why that is or skepticism for his anti-Ukraine position.

So you can pretend if you want that people who believe Ukraine's sovereignty should be eliminated and that Putin should be allowed to erase the Ukrainian identity from the history books is somehow a pro-peace position. You can pretend that people who believe Ukraine has a right to exist and that its people have a right to self-determination is an anti-peace position. You can naively ignore what's really going on and adopt Putin's propaganda in your typical fashion, but people who naively take these positions have no credibility and aren't persuasive.

There are a lot of people who actually know what they are talking about. None of those people were dumb enough to believe the pro-Putin shills like Mcgregor and Putin88 who claimed a year ago that this invasion would be over in days or weeks or who continued to claim every few weeks that Putin was thisclose to winning. They are working backwards from their desires and hoping that the outcomes match up. They very much want Ukraine to appease Putin so that they can be proven right.

This war will never end unless Putin withdraws. Just like we saw in Afghanistan and elsewhere, you can not expect to occupy a hostile territory indefinitely. The sooner Putin is made to realize it, the sooner there is a chance for true lasting peace. I don't have high hopes.

The Conversation: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia

Ronald Suny, University of Michigan
Published: February 28, 2022 2.06pm EST

"...The opposing view argues that Russia's security concerns are in fact genuine, and that NATO expansion eastward is seen by Russians as directed against their country. Putin has been clear for many years that if continued, the expansion would likely be met with serious resistance by the Russians, even with military action.

"That perspective isn't held just by Russians; some influential American foreign policy experts have subscribed to it as well.

"Among others, Biden's CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That's when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that "hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here." ..."

"...When President Bill Clinton's administration moved to bring Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic into NATO, Burns wrote that the decision was "premature at best, and needlessly provocative at worst." ..."

"...In June 1997, 50 prominent foreign policy experts signed an open letter to Clinton, saying, "We believe that the current U.S. led effort to expand NATO … is a policy error of historic proportions" that would "unsettle European stability."

In 2008, Burns, then the American ambassador to Moscow, wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice: "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin's sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests."

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999

"...One wonders as did the American diplomat George F. Kennan, the father of the Cold War containment doctrine who warned against NATO expansion in 1998 whether the advancement of NATO eastward has increased the security of European states or made them more vulnerable."