dimitrig said:

---

oski003 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

What any of this has to do with this thread I have no idea.

---

Me neither.
I think it's just pure DESPERATION by our local Russian propagandist.

Subway stations in Moscow clearly have nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine.
The "pretty" pictures have nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of people that have died due to Putin's actions.
It strikes me as pretty pathetic that someone is promoting this kind of twisted logic.

---

A lot of folks here insult Russia. One example is calling them a glorified Petro station. Another is saying they are poor and talking about them barely being in the top 50 GDP per Capita. In response, Cal88 is defending Russia from these criticisms, which may further lead to folks calling him Putin88.

---

They are poor unless you are an oligarch who owns a mansion next to the river.

Everyone else lives in tiny apartments in Soviet era brutalist gray high rises that make Evans Hall look inviting.

One really weird thing about Russia is that almost everywhere was dead quiet. Walk into a restaurant and no one greets you. Then out of the shadows emerges someone in a suit who looks like Lurch and seats you. I saw this in many places. Not in the upscale hotels, of course, where a hostess greets you but in the typical cafes.

I stayed at a small hotel and the girl who was at the front desk at 10pm was also the girl who was at the front desk in the morning. The guy serving us breakfast in the morning was also our waiter at night. They must work like 16 hour shifts. I found it a little disconcerting.

Oh, I forgot that the tap water is not safe to drink because it is contaminated with heavy metals so the hotels provide all the bottled water you want for free.

I went to a Russian neighborhood grocery store and it was like the worst 7 Eleven you have ever been to in your life. Produce was horrible. Liquor was prominent. Later on I asked at the hotel if there was an actual supermarket as opposed to a convenience store and they told me that was the supermarket unless I could drive to the suburbs.

I was able to buy crab-flavored Lay's chips, though. Delicious.

---

I was in Dresden, East Germany with my Dad in 1976 visiting relatives and found many of the same things that you "highlighted" above. Everything is painted in a brutally drab grey. Grocery stores have old wooden shelves that are often bare. Refrigeration is poor, etc. Not good.

In other news, I see that Oski003 continues to directly REPLY to me even though he knows that I have him on ignore.
I wonder if he stalks girls that no longer want to have anything to do with him.
His behavior is creepy.

tequila4kapp said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

When Zelensky addressed US Congress in December he said, “Just like the Battle of Saratoga, the fight for Bakhmut will change the trajectory of our war for independence and for freedom" pic.twitter.com/sZojFRTNQ8

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) May 24, 2023

---

Who is to say it didn't? It is easy to translate that statement simply to mean Win vs. Lose. But forcing a larger force with strategic advantages to spend 10 months fighting to acquire a single city is a substantial strategic W. To wit, if Russia had routed the Ukranians and taken the city in say a week the trajectory of this war would be massively different.

By way of comparison, the longest battle on German ground during World War II and the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought was the Battle of Hurtgen Forest - 3 months. The longest battle of Vietnam was Battle of Khe Sanh - 2+ months. The longest single battle of the Civil War was The siege of Port Hudson - 28 days. We have to go all the way back to WW1 and the battle of Verdun to find another battle that lasted 10 months. (all per Wikipedia)

---

Bakhmut is a turning point in this war of attrition, not so much because of the conquest of that city (although that is also important -see Zel's statement below-), but more so due to the heavy losses incurred by Ukraine as well as the emotional and symbolic capital invested into this campaign, as illustrated by Zelensky's Congress address above.

Simply stated, it's been the biggest battle of this war so far, with up to 200,000 Ukrainian soldiers taking part, against roughly 70,000 Wagner and 20k-30k Russian troops.

Ukraine poured just under half of its brigades into Bakhmut and were not able to hold it. Taking immense casualties along the way in men and equipment.

Losses that are irreplaceable for Ukraine. It is part of the reason the Spring Offensive never happened.

Bakhmut was a trap. https://t.co/2vNjDQkkLU pic.twitter.com/0rpYa1eAlY

— Fennec_Radar (@RadarFennec) May 20, 2023

Zelensky: “We understand that after #Bakhmut they could go further. They could go to Kramatorsk, they could go to Sloviansk, it would be open road for the Russians after Bakhmut to other towns in Ukraine, in the Donetsk direction.”https://t.co/lkZ5cWUeu6

— ₦₳V𝚜𝚝é𝚟𝚊 🇷🇺 ᴢ (@Navsteva) May 20, 2023

The Russians are set to advance steadily, the next big battles will be the urban battles of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk, which are the main remaining large urban centers between the Donbass and the Dniepr. These battles could start by the end of Summer, and will likely be waged by Wagner.

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

oski003 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

What any of this has to do with this thread I have no idea.

---

Me neither.
I think it's just pure DESPERATION by our local Russian propagandist.

Subway stations in Moscow clearly have nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine.
The "pretty" pictures have nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of people that have died due to Putin's actions.
It strikes me as pretty pathetic that someone is promoting this kind of twisted logic.

---

A lot of folks here insult Russia. One example is calling them a glorified Petro station. Another is saying they are poor and talking about them barely being in the top 50 GDP per Capita. In response, Cal88 is defending Russia from these criticisms, which may further lead to folks calling him Putin88.

---

They are poor unless you are an oligarch who owns a mansion next to the river.

Everyone else lives in tiny apartments in Soviet era brutalist gray high rises that make Evans Hall look inviting.

One really weird thing about Russia is that almost everywhere was dead quiet. Walk into a restaurant and no one greets you. Then out of the shadows emerges someone in a suit who looks like Lurch and seats you. I saw this in many places. Not in the upscale hotels, of course, where a hostess greets you but in the typical cafes.

I stayed at a small hotel and the girl who was at the front desk at 10pm was also the girl who was at the front desk in the morning. The guy serving us breakfast in the morning was also our waiter at night. They must work like 16 hour shifts. I found it a little disconcerting.

Oh, I forgot that the tap water is not safe to drink because it is contaminated with heavy metals so the hotels provide all the bottled water you want for free.

I went to a Russian neighborhood grocery store and it was like the worst 7 Eleven you have ever been to in your life. Produce was horrible. Liquor was prominent. Later on I asked at the hotel if there was an actual supermarket as opposed to a convenience store and they told me that was the supermarket unless I could drive to the suburbs.

I was able to buy crab-flavored Lay's chips, though. Delicious.

---

I was in Dresden, East Germany with my Dad in 1976 visiting relatives and found many of the same things that you "highlighted" above. Everything is painted in a brutally drab grey. Grocery stores have old wooden shelves that are often bare. Refrigeration is poor, etc. Not good.

In other news, I see that Oski003 continues to directly REPLY to me even though he knows that I have him on ignore.
I wonder if he stalks girls that no longer want to have anything to do with him.
His behavior is creepy.

---

Flagged for trolling.

DiabloWags said:

---

So strange that people have no "respect" for the IGNORE feature.
And yet they continue to REPLY (over a dozen times) to people that want nothing to do with them.
Sounds really childish.

---

Ignore means you ignore me. It doesn't mean to talk crap about me and expect me to ignore you. This should be common sense. Thanks.

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

When Zelensky addressed US Congress in December he said, “Just like the Battle of Saratoga, the fight for Bakhmut will change the trajectory of our war for independence and for freedom" pic.twitter.com/sZojFRTNQ8

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) May 24, 2023

---

Who is to say it didn't? It is easy to translate that statement simply to mean Win vs. Lose. But forcing a larger force with strategic advantages to spend 10 months fighting to acquire a single city is a substantial strategic W. To wit, if Russia had routed the Ukranians and taken the city in say a week the trajectory of this war would be massively different.

By way of comparison, the longest battle on German ground during World War II and the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought was the Battle of Hurtgen Forest - 3 months. The longest battle of Vietnam was Battle of Khe Sanh - 2+ months. The longest single battle of the Civil War was The siege of Port Hudson - 28 days. We have to go all the way back to WW1 and the battle of Verdun to find another battle that lasted 10 months. (all per Wikipedia)

---

Bakhmut is a turning point in this war of attrition, not so much because of the conquest of that city (although that is also important -see Zel's statement below-), but more so due to the heavy losses incurred by Ukraine as well as the emotional and symbolic capital invested into this campaign, as illustrated by Zelensky's Congress address above.

Simply stated, it's been the biggest battle of this war so far, with up to 200,000 Ukrainian soldiers taking part, against roughly 70,000 Wagner and 20k-30k Russian troops.

Ukraine poured just under half of its brigades into Bakhmut and were not able to hold it. Taking immense casualties along the way in men and equipment.

Losses that are irreplaceable for Ukraine. It is part of the reason the Spring Offensive never happened.

Bakhmut was a trap. https://t.co/2vNjDQkkLU pic.twitter.com/0rpYa1eAlY

— Fennec_Radar (@RadarFennec) May 20, 2023

Zelensky: “We understand that after #Bakhmut they could go further. They could go to Kramatorsk, they could go to Sloviansk, it would be open road for the Russians after Bakhmut to other towns in Ukraine, in the Donetsk direction.”https://t.co/lkZ5cWUeu6

— ₦₳V𝚜𝚝é𝚟𝚊 🇷🇺 ᴢ (@Navsteva) May 20, 2023

The Russians are set to advance steadily, the next big battles will be the urban battles of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk, which are the main remaining large urban centers between the Donbass and the Dniepr. These battles could start by the end of Summer, and will likely be waged by Wagner.

---

Wait, weren't the Russians set to steadily advance in April of 2022? Then Ukraine liberated Kherson and Kharkiv.

I found Russia's latest reports on Ukrainian casualties.

FTR, most estimates here of Ukranian vs Russian deaths have come from AMERICAN sources, or Pentagon leaks.

These seem to be anecdotally proven by videos of Ukranian military dragging Ukranian citizens into vans (aka forced recruitment), and current Ukranian military men interviewed being in their mid 50s or older. (i.e. young soldiers are either killed, injured, or AWOL.)

Pardon the language if you are easily offended but I saw this meme in the post about Russia thinking they would defeat America strategically in as soon as 10 years and I found it very sad but true.

Cal88 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

oski003 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

What any of this has to do with this thread I have no idea.

---

Me neither.
I think it's just pure DESPERATION by our local Russian propagandist.

Subway stations in Moscow clearly have nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine.
The "pretty" pictures have nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of people that have died due to Putin's actions.
It strikes me as pretty pathetic that someone is promoting this kind of twisted logic.

---

A lot of folks here insult Russia. One example is calling them a glorified Petro station. Another is saying they are poor and talking about them barely being in the top 50 GDP per Capita. In response, Cal88 is defending Russia from these criticisms, which may further lead to folks calling him Putin88.

---

They are poor unless you are an oligarch who owns a mansion next to the river.

Everyone else lives in tiny apartments in Soviet era brutalist gray high rises that make Evans Hall look inviting.

One really weird thing about Russia is that almost everywhere was dead quiet. Walk into a restaurant and no one greets you. Then out of the shadows emerges someone in a suit who looks like Lurch and seats you. I saw this in many places. Not in the upscale hotels, of course, where a hostess greets you but in the typical cafes.

I stayed at a small hotel and the girl who was at the front desk at 10pm was also the girl who was at the front desk in the morning. The guy serving us breakfast in the morning was also our waiter at night. They must work like 16 hour shifts. I found it a little disconcerting.

Oh, I forgot that the tap water is not safe to drink because it is contaminated with heavy metals so the hotels provide all the bottled water you want for free.

I went to a Russian neighborhood grocery store and it was like the worst 7 Eleven you have ever been to in your life. Produce was horrible. Liquor was prominent. Later on I asked at the hotel if there was an actual supermarket as opposed to a convenience store and they told me that was the supermarket unless I could drive to the suburbs.

I was able to buy crab-flavored Lay's chips, though. Delicious.

---

I guess you must have been there a long time ago, otherwise you would probably have found several supermarket and groceries online like the ones below, there are lots in and around St Petersburg, including international chains like Auchan. Back in the 90s Russia was indeed a failed state, economic wasteland and societal disaster. Things have become gradually much better since, Russia is now on par with the better EE countries like Poland in amenities and economic development.

Grocery shopping today in St. Pete.:

from this young vlogger-traveler:

Quote:

---

19,832 views Jun 5, 2021 SAINT PETERSBURG
Today we're going to do some grocery shopping at a grocery store in St. Petersburg, Russia. This store chain is called Perekrestok and it is one of the best chains I've seen in the country so far. The prices are very fair and there's a broad selection of local and imported goods. If you are travelling to Russia and don't speak Russian, don't worry, you can get by without speaking at all and at the end of the video I teach you the few words you need to know.

Grocery stores are located almost on every block here in St. Petersburg, but not all of them are of the same quality. For example, most of them are cheap, fast grocery chains where you can get the very basics. When you arrive in Russia you should try out different stores, because there are a few good ones out there like Perekrestok and international chains like Spar are growing rapidly.

---

There's also this great option, a vintage Russian grocery store/cafe that is also a local landmark:
https://guideforyou-russia.com/what-to-see/city-tours/eliseyev-emporium/

Quote:

---

Eliseevsky store situated right on the Nevsky prospekt is definately the most beautiful grocery store you have ever seen. It was built in the beginning of the 20th century in art deco style for wealthy merchants, Eliseev brothers. The amazing interiors of Eliseevsky have recently been restored and now you can marvel at their beauty.

---

Home ownership rates in Russia are 90%. Average flat size is much smaller than what you're used to in CA, but it isn't much different from Paris or Manhattan, large dense cities where most people live in small quarters.

Also, there are still a lot of armed guards, both military and riot police all over Paris today, at rail stations, landmarks etc, not just after 9/11.

---

1. Even the link you posted the guys says there are "a few good" grocery stores. That was exactly my experience. That is called damning with faint praise.

2. You are correct. Paris is the only other city where I have seen police officers standing around carrying machine guns for no good reason. What's up with that?

9/11 is a whole different thing because of what had just occurred.

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

I still can’t decide what I’m more amazed by – the fact he openly mused about Ukraine not really existing, or that the map actually does clearly show “Ukraine, land of the Cossacks” https://t.co/i3JnvlM3KF pic.twitter.com/kGK4SWmRBk

— max seddon (@maxseddon) May 25, 2023

oski003 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

---

3, 2, 1 until Cal88 and Movielover tell us this is a report from The Onion. Cue the explanation that Russia is only fighting this war because NATO, Nazis and the oppressed Russian citizens backed them into a corner and forced them to. Oh yeah, and fake news...Yahoo is in the pocket of the west. Russian media didn't publish this story so it must be false.

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

This is why all of the propaganda BS about nazis or self-defense or whatever else they think they can use to delude people is such garbage.

Putin has made it clear from the start what his endgame is. I've posted about this previously - including a link to his essay on why Ukraine shouldn't exist.

It's also why the only way this war ever ends for the Ukrainian people is for Putin to be resoundly defeated. Putin will never abide by any peaceful negotiation and will just regroup and try again later the same way he's done time and time again.

That won't stop the useful idiots and shills from continuing to spread the Kremlin's false gospel of course.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

That won't stop the useful idiots and shills from continuing to spread the Kremlin's false gospel of course.

---

Unfortunately true.

It's terribly sad (in my opinion) that the owner of Bearinsider doesnt appear to have a problem with Russian propaganda being spewed on his platform 24/7.

Quite frankly, I think it's embarrassing.

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

400-year old map of North America...

tequila4kapp said:

---

3, 2, 1 until Cal88 and Movielover tell us this is a report from The Onion. Cue the explanation that Russia is only fighting this war because NATO, Nazis and the oppressed Russian citizens backed them into a corner and forced them to. Oh yeah, and fake news...Yahoo is in the pocket of the west. Russian media didn't publish this story so it must be false.

---

They must have slept in this morning.
Took them 2.5 hours to "spin" the map being 400 years old.

DiabloWags said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

That won't stop the useful idiots and shills from continuing to spread the Kremlin's false gospel of course.

---

Unfortunately true.

It's terribly sad (in my opinion) that the owner of Bearinsider doesnt appear to have a problem with Russian propaganda being spewed on his platform 24/7.

Quite frankly, I think it's embarrassing.

---

It is the proponents of censorship and redbaiters that should be embarrassed here, clearly.

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

That won't stop the useful idiots and shills from continuing to spread the Kremlin's false gospel of course.

---

Unfortunately true.

It's terribly sad (in my opinion) that the owner of Bearinsider doesnt appear to have a problem with Russian propaganda being spewed on his platform 24/7.

Quite frankly, I think it's embarrassing.

---

It is the proponents of censorship and redbaiters that should be embarrassed here, clearly.

---

Admittedly, you've never even been to Russia.
Yet you're the "expert" in all things Russian.

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

400-year old map of North America...

---

So you're suggesting that the US should be just the Atlantic coast east of the Appalachians and the rest of the country belongs to the Native Americans?

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

400-year old map of North America...

---

So you're suggesting that the US should be just the Atlantic coast east of the Appalachians and the rest of the country belongs to the Native Americans?

---

Just putting things in perspective, when it comes to colonialism and 400 year old maps.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

This is why all of the propaganda BS about nazis or self-defense or whatever else they think they can use to delude people is such garbage.

Putin has made it clear from the start what his endgame is. I've posted about this previously - including a link to his essay on why Ukraine shouldn't exist.

It's also why the only way this war ever ends for the Ukrainian people is for Putin to be resoundly defeated. Putin will never abide by any peaceful negotiation and will just regroup and try again later the same way he's done time and time again.

That won't stop the useful idiots and shills from continuing to spread the Kremlin's false gospel of course.

---

I have provided plenty of evidence of modern Ukrainian nationalism being based on nazi ideology, espoused by the OUN and UPA.

Stepan Bandera, leader of the largest SS division in WW2, has been elevated to a George Washington founding father national figure, he is honored by having main city thoroghfares being recently named after him, postage stamps and main squares with his statues in just about every major western Ukrainian city. That's also true about dozens of his nazi OUN lieutenants, who have recently had their street names, busts, plaques, stamps etc.

In your universe, none of this exists, or it is somehow a marginal phenomenon.

Neonazi nationalists today permeate the Ukrainian military establishment and the 35,000-strong SBU, the Ukrainian KGB. History books in Ukraine have been rewritten, whitewashing and glorifying Banderists.


Ukraine's military Commander in Chief, General Valerii Zaluzhny, celebrates the birthday of Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera

What you think of Russia or Putin doesn't change this reality.

Also, it's remarkably naive to think that Putin will be "resoundly defeated". All that you're doing here is to use Ukrainians to fight Russia in a war they cannot win, and that is only leading to the destruction of their nation. You're being spoon-fed wartime propaganda that is painstakingly trying to hide the real nature of this military conflict.

Ukraine used to have over 50 million people in 1990, 40 million in 2000 (mass migration and demographic crisis due to corrupt oligarchs running their economy into the ground), and today territories held by Ukraine have around 15-18 million people left as the exodus is accelerating. Most of these migrants are never coming back. The policies pushed by NATO have led to that nation being wrecked, to paraphrase Mearsheimer.

There is no solution for Ukraine from your irrational perspective, only further destruction and deaths.

Cal88 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

400-year old map of North America...

---

So you're suggesting that the US should be just the Atlantic coast east of the Appalachians and the rest of the country belongs to the Native Americans?

---

Just putting things in perspective, when it comes to colonialism and 400 year old maps.

---

Missing the point (probably deliberately). Putin's argument about Ukraine is historical, that it has no historical basis as its own entity. The historical maps disprove that.

No one in the USA is trying to argue that it is a sovereign nation because of how things were 400 years ago, so there's no point in showing this map.

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

400-year old map of North America...

---

So you're suggesting that the US should be just the Atlantic coast east of the Appalachians and the rest of the country belongs to the Native Americans?

---

Just putting things in perspective, when it comes to colonialism and 400 year old maps.

---

Missing the point (probably deliberately). Putin's argument about Ukraine is historical, that it has no historical basis as its own entity. The historical maps disprove that.

No one in the USA is trying to argue that it is a sovereign nation because of how things were 400 years ago, so there's no point in showing this map.

---

That map showed a small local enclave of "Ukraine - land of the cossacks" wedged between Volhynie and Podolie, two southeastern provinces of the Polish-Lithuanian empire at its greatest extent in the early/mid 17th century. It wasn't quite Texas-sized 1991 Ukraine. I believe that region was then conquered by Russia later that century, as well as the northern shores of the Black Sea and Crimea, which were then mostly inhabited by Tatars.

The area was subsequently colonized by Russians, who founded most of the cities in the area including Odessa, Melitopol, Mariupol etc., and dubbed Novorossyia (New Russia) and incorporated into the Russian Empire in 1764.



That enclave labelled as Ukraine on that 17th century map was the western edge of the Cossack populations, their range extended several thousand kms eastwards from there across the Cuacasus all the way to the Urals. Most Cossacks spoke Russian, including the Don Cossacks, who inhabited the Donbass.

---

Arguing about maps is really besides the point

The only relevant question is this: does Ukraine have right to exist as an independent sovereign entity, completely separate from Russia? Yes or No.

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Putin said an old map proves Ukraine isnt a real country.
Never mind, that the document in fact shows the area near Kyiv labeled as "Ukraine"



A composite image show Russian President Vladimir Putin (right) examining a 17th-century map of eastern Europe with Valery Zorkin, a Russian justice official. The inset shows a part of the document labeled "Ukraine".Kremlin/Bibliothque Nationale de France

Putin claimed a 400-year-old map proved Ukraine isn't a real country, not noticing it has 'Ukraine' written on it (yahoo.com)

---

400-year old map of North America...

---

So you're suggesting that the US should be just the Atlantic coast east of the Appalachians and the rest of the country belongs to the Native Americans?

---

Just putting things in perspective, when it comes to colonialism and 400 year old maps.

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Missing the point (probably deliberately). Putin's argument about Ukraine is historical, that it has no historical basis as its own entity. The historical maps disprove that.

No one in the USA is trying to argue that it is a sovereign nation because of how things were 400 years ago, so there's no point in showing this map.

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That map showed a small local enclave of "Ukraine - land of the cossacks" wedged between Volhynie and Podolie, two southeastern provinces of the Polish-Lithuanian empire at its greatest extent in the early/mid 17th century. It wasn't quite Texas-sized 1991 Ukraine. I believe that region was then conquered by Russia later that century, as well as the northern shores of the Black Sea and Crimea, which were then mostly inhabited by Tatars.

The area was subsequently colonized by Russians, who founded most of the cities in the area including Odessa, Melitopol, Mariupol etc., and dubbed Novorossyia (New Russia) and incorporated into the Russian Empire in 1764.



That enclave labelled as Ukraine on that 17th century map was the western edge of the Cossack populations, their range extended several thousand kms eastwards from there across the Cuacasus all the way to the Urals. Most Cossacks spoke Russian, including the Don Cossacks, who inhabited the Donbass.

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Arguing about maps is really besides the point

The only relevant question is this: does Ukraine have right to exist as an independent sovereign entity, completely separate from Russia? Yes or No.

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Ukraine in its current iteration wants to eradicate Russian culture from its large minority. If they want to live in a monolingual, monocultural Galician national identity, they should split up from Novorossiya, the Russophone southern half the country, the same way the Czechs split from the Slovaks.

They could have preserved 2014 Ukraine as the largest country in Europe by abiding by the Minsk Agreements, which provided cultural autonomy to the Donbass within a federal framework not unlike those of Canada, Switzerland, Spain or the UK.

Unfortunately, Ukraine is being run by tone-deaf Ukrainian nationalists who hate everything Russian, banning Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker, purging authors like Dostoyevsky or Tolstoi, and dumping millions of Russian-language books. This kind of cultural extremism, which was set in place by NATO through the 2014 Maidan Coup and well before that through the promotion of ex-nazis by NATO (Operation Aerodynamic) has no place in modern Europe.

It has sown the seeds of the current conflict, a process described very well by Rhode Island history prof Nicolia Petro in his book "The Tragedy of Ukraine":

https://www.amazon.ca/Tragedy-Ukraine-Classical-Conflict-Resolution/dp/3110743248