The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

940,412 Views | 10272 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by Cal88
oski003
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blungld said:

dimitrig said:


I love how Cal88 posts with such authority about what is going on in the ground in Ukraine.

There are very few, if any, qualifiers used in his statements.

He trusts the accuracy of his Internet sources completely or at least wants us to think so.

That's some dedication. His handlers must be proud.


Yes, that is my main problem with his posts. He acts as though he is the sole expert and arbiter of truth instead qualifying with "in my opinion" or "the way I see it" or "I think." He posts in absolutes as though he is a Phd grading papers from 3rd graders. Condescending, poor listener, and no discussion as though we are peers trying to figure things out together. Does not even seem to entertain the possibility he might be wrong or have bad information, or worse, that HE could learn something from others here on the board. It's always from his place on high proclaiming judgements: that is right and that is wrong and here is what will happen inevitably.

If Putin88 weren't such a good fit, I'd opt for Pompous88.


I agree that Usucks certainly sounds as you described.
sycasey
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oski003 said:

blungld said:

dimitrig said:


I love how Cal88 posts with such authority about what is going on in the ground in Ukraine.

There are very few, if any, qualifiers used in his statements.

He trusts the accuracy of his Internet sources completely or at least wants us to think so.

That's some dedication. His handlers must be proud.


Yes, that is my main problem with his posts. He acts as though he is the sole expert and arbiter of truth instead qualifying with "in my opinion" or "the way I see it" or "I think." He posts in absolutes as though he is a Phd grading papers from 3rd graders. Condescending, poor listener, and no discussion as though we are peers trying to figure things out together. Does not even seem to entertain the possibility he might be wrong or have bad information, or worse, that HE could learn something from others here on the board. It's always from his place on high proclaiming judgements: that is right and that is wrong and here is what will happen inevitably.

If Putin88 weren't such a good fit, I'd opt for Pompous88.


I agree that Usucks certainly sounds as you described.

He's definitely diametrically opposed to 88, but I think Unit2 is usually pretty good about noting that there is still a lot of "fog of war" around whatever information we are getting.
blungld
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I see what you did. You reversed it. Clever. Makes me question everything I wrote because I might have it all wrong and my description might actually fit the "opposite" person than who I meant. Wow. Really sick burn.
Big C
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blungld said:

dimitrig said:


I love how Cal88 posts with such authority about what is going on in the ground in Ukraine.

There are very few, if any, qualifiers used in his statements.

He trusts the accuracy of his Internet sources completely or at least wants us to think so.

That's some dedication. His handlers must be proud.


Yes, that is my main problem with his posts. He acts as though he is the sole expert and arbiter of truth instead qualifying with "in my opinion" or "the way I see it" or "I think." He posts in absolutes as though he is a Phd grading papers from 3rd graders. Condescending, poor listener, and no discussion as though we are peers trying to figure things out together. Does not even seem to entertain the possibility he might be wrong or have bad information, or worse, that HE could learn something from others here on the board. It's always from his place on high proclaiming judgements: that is right and that is wrong and here is what will happen inevitably.

If Putin88 weren't such a good fit, I'd opt for Pompous88.

In my opinion, pretty much both sides on this forum (or anywhere, really) are doing this. I really don't see "peers trying to figure this out together". At least that's the way I see it. I think.
movielover
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blungld said:

dimitrig said:


I love how Cal88 posts with such authority about what is going on in the ground in Ukraine.

There are very few, if any, qualifiers used in his statements.

He trusts the accuracy of his Internet sources completely or at least wants us to think so.

That's some dedication. His handlers must be proud.


Yes, that is my main problem with his posts. He acts as though he is the sole expert and arbiter of truth instead qualifying with "in my opinion" or "the way I see it" or "I think." He posts in absolutes as though he is a Phd grading papers from 3rd graders. Condescending, poor listener, and no discussion as though we are peers trying to figure things out together. Does not even seem to entertain the possibility he might be wrong or have bad information, or worse, that HE could learn something from others here on the board. It's always from his place on high proclaiming judgements: that is right and that is wrong and here is what will happen inevitably.

If Putin88 weren't such a good fit, I'd opt for Pompous88.


In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

Cal88 continually posts specific military knowledge, specific weapon data, evolution, historical context, etc. Just like HistoryLegends and Colonel McGregor.

On the rare occasion that Ukraine has succeeded at something, he (and I) acknowledge such.
movielover
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

blungld said:

dimitrig said:


I love how Cal88 posts with such authority about what is going on in the ground in Ukraine.

There are very few, if any, qualifiers used in his statements.

He trusts the accuracy of his Internet sources completely or at least wants us to think so.

That's some dedication. His handlers must be proud.


Yes, that is my main problem with his posts. He acts as though he is the sole expert and arbiter of truth instead qualifying with "in my opinion" or "the way I see it" or "I think." He posts in absolutes as though he is a Phd grading papers from 3rd graders. Condescending, poor listener, and no discussion as though we are peers trying to figure things out together. Does not even seem to entertain the possibility he might be wrong or have bad information, or worse, that HE could learn something from others here on the board. It's always from his place on high proclaiming judgements: that is right and that is wrong and here is what will happen inevitably.

If Putin88 weren't such a good fit, I'd opt for Pompous88.


I agree that Usucks certainly sounds as you described.

He's definitely diametrically opposed to 88, but I think Unit2 is usually pretty good about noting that there is still a lot of "fog of war" around whatever information we are getting.


There is no fog of war when the top general from Ukraine basically asks for a whole new Military - in The Economist.

There is no fog of war when the head of European Command for NATO (USA) says there has been an unbelievable level of artillery used, and the EU / NATO / USA have run out of ammo. (Eight months ago?)

There is no fog of war when NATO / USA have no ammo surge capacity, and 44 4-star Generals can't implement a solution.

Same for Russia dominating the skies, and partnering with Iran for cheap drones.

The Pentagin Papers leak confirms horrific losses for Ukraine at a 7-to-1 kill ratio, or worse.

General Milley about a year ago saying Ukraine did its best, but time for another solution isn't fog of war. Then he got smacked down by the MIC, so hundreds of thousands more Ukrainian men could be slaughtered and Ukraine wrecked.

All of the above have ominous implications.

P.S. I have Cal88 to thank for getting me up to speed on Russias evolution the past 20 years. I thought they were still economically in the basement. A stark contrast are their sterling architecturally wonderful mass transit - compared to our urban Walking Dead cities.
Unit2Sucks
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Here's an interesting discussion in the Financial Times with Timothy Snyder. I've mentioned him a few times - he's an expert scholar on Ukraine, Russia and more and thinks the west and the US have been very wrong about Putin for a long time.



The article starts by mentioning that a Ukrainian friend of Snyder's who has been documenting Russian war crimes was recently killed when Russia destroyed a restaurant in the Donbas with a missile recently.

The whole article is a great read but this is the part I would highlight:

Quote:


"Putin is really not our problem," Snyder responds. "I mean, the last 30 years have shown quite clearly that we don't actually have much ability at all to influence Russia . . . time after time we have demonstrated we don't change anything inside Russia."

He continues: "I find the Prigozhin interlude honestly quite reassuring, because it shows us that there are Russians who perfectly well understand the situation in Ukraine; that Russians are also capable of completely forgetting about Ukraine when there's a greater stress when there's an actual succession struggle going on, all they talk about is themselves.

"We drive ourselves round and round in anxious circles about what Russia is thinking about this war, and we're not letting ourselves realise that the Russians will find ways out for themselves . . . They don't need for us to have our focus groups and our studies and our exit ramps. Anthropologically speaking, our exit ramps are not applicable to their highways, if you'll forgive that stupid metaphor?"

He quickly alights on a more elegant turn of phrase: "It's two different fairy tales, as the Poles say."

In Russia, the west seems to forget it is not seeing a mirror nation-state to its own. It is a different paradigm of power altogether, driven by "Weberian notions of charismatic leadership", says Snyder.

"The thing is, Russia can't have a domestic policy," Snyder muses. "The elite have stolen all the money, all the laws are corrupted, and there's almost no social mobility or possibility of change in most Russians' lives, so foreign policy has to compensate and provide the raw material the scenography for governance."
As to the meta-discussion about this thread, I think in time the credibility of the posters will become self-evident, even if for whatever reason it hasn't already. Just like we saw the same person predicting with delusional certainty that Trump would win on election night in 2020 (and lost bets over it) and predicted in July 2020 that COVID was disappearing in Europe and that the US would follow suit in August 2020, and claimed that Damar Hamlin's career was 100% over due to a heart injury from the COVID vaccine, we will be able to evaluate who had good takes and who had bad takes in this thread.

I'm willing to stand behind my statements. I won't pretend that every single thing I've posted has turned out to be 100% true - as sycasey points out we are very much in the fog of war but I strive to only post high quality content and to include limitations where I find it appropriate. I evaluate the credibility of my sources and stick with ones who have been strong. I'm pretty careful not to make statements that I don't think are accurate (unlike the shills) and it's important to me that I not damage my credibility, even if no one else is keeping track or cares.

I don't think I've made a single wild predictions which turned out to be laughably false like the McDoofus of the Putin wing and like we've seen time and time again in this thread from Putin's guard. I haven't made very many predictions or projections at all because I don't know what will happen, certainly not to the level of specificity that the Putin guard pretends they can predict.

The war is playing out in real time and a lot of the future will depend on the level of Western support. If the US were to permit Ukraine to receive better aid (F16s, ATACMS, etc.), Ukraine's chances will improve. I don't know what will happen and neither does anyone else.

I do have some theories which I've been clear about and I'm careful to share them. There are also obvious things that I know - Putin and the Kremlin are reprehensible and that they are running a concerted and massive misinformation campaign. There really is nothing to debate there. I haven't made fanciful projections about death counts because I have no basis for doing so. I haven't ever stated what I thought the current casualty numbers are because I have no basis to do so. Other people have for reasons which I think are pretty obvious. The people doing so have in every case been amplifying Russian talking points.

We already know enough to determine who has been credible in this thread and who isn't. Unfortunately it's a massive amount of work given the volume of information shared, so I don't blame people for not doing it. That's why I put people on ignore - combating their misinformation (which they receive in firehose form) is more or less a full-time job.

But anyone paying attention can remember the Bakhmut discussion as an example. The Russian shills claimed that it was a decisive strategic win and hugely important for Russia's war efforts for reasons that they pretty much made up. Several months later, Russia has gotten no military benefit from Bakhmut and may end up losing it because Wagner isn't there to fight. Official Russian channels claimed in the wake of the Prigozhin mutiny that Bakhmut wasn't strategic and was just a vanity campaign by Prigozhin. If Ukraine retakes Bakhmut, the Russian shills will claim it didn't matter with as much force as they claimed that it mattered when Russia took it. It's not just a coincidence that they align 100% with Russian propaganda. I see this type of brazen propaganda all over the internet and I'm certain if I turned off ignore and started scrutinizing the Putin guard's posting history again, I would find it to be rife with obvious misinformation, always to the benefit of Putin and Russia. That's not worth my time and it doesn't seem like anyone really cares at this point.

I also am aware that most people don't care for or bother to read what I post here and that's perfectly fine with me. I am happy enough to be ignored. I am using this thread somewhat as a journal that I can go back and reference later to assess how I did in sharing information about this war. That's just sort of how my brain works because I find it interesting.


oski003
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blungld said:

I see what you did. You reversed it. Clever. Makes me question everything I wrote because I might have it all wrong and my description might actually fit the "opposite" person than who I meant. Wow. Really sick burn.


I starred this. Thank you for the kind words.
movielover
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Simple questions.

Who's gonna fly the F16s?

How long will they train?

Who's going to service them?
dimitrig
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movielover said:

Simple questions.

Who's gonna fly the F16s?

How long will they train?

Who's going to service them?


The F16s won't make a difference because Russia has hundreds of modern warplanes. Why they don't use them except to launch glide bombs from far far away is an interesting question, but my guess is that :

1. They don't want to lose them, especially if the wreckage can then be analyzed by the West

2. They don't want the West to develop tactics against them.

Why risk the above when Ukraine has no real Air Force to speak of anymore?

Maybe the F16s will force Russia to commit their Air Force. Perhaps that is the goal. However, in terms of turning the tide of the war… I don't think so.

movielover
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Why show the goods if you don't have to?

Just as we took our modern improvements off the tanks we're sending / sent.
dimitrig
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movielover said:

Why show the goods if you don't have to?

Just as we took our modern improvements off the tanks we're sending / sent.


Right. The fighters might force Russia to commit their aircraft. I guess in that sense it might have some strategic value but tactically it won't matter at all and may make things worse on the ground.
Cal88
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movielover said:

Simple questions.

Who's gonna fly the F16s?

How long will they train?

Who's going to service them?

Mostly foreign volunteers would fly the F16s, it's a unique plane with a small fixed side stick and a reclined flying position, would take a year+ minimum to train to fly it. There is a pool of literally thousands of current and former F16 NATO pilots from the US, Holland, Poland, Norway, Denmark etc, it wouldn't be hard to get a couple of dozen to volunteer for a Flying Tigers-type squadron.

They would use planes from NATO near retirement age, that would be shot down after a few missions, So in that sense maintenance would not be a critical issue. NATO has no answer for both S-300/400s or MIg-31s, Su-35s and Su-57 with R37M missiles with a range of 300km+. The Russians have shot down 400+ Ukrainian planes, almost half of which from air-to-air combat, with very limited losses of their own. The other weak spot would be the ground crew and maintenance hangars, which would be prime targets for long-range drone and missile bombings.

The best BVR missile in NATO's inventory is the French Meteor, with a range of over 200km, operated by more modern European planes like the Eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen, they would give the Russian air force a good challenge, but once again they would also be vulnerable on the ground to long range bombings. The Ukrainian have also had more success using the newer French SCALP cruise missiles recently given to them than the older British versions of that missile, the Storm Shadow.

One main issue would be the use of Polish or Romanian bases as safer staging grounds, which would then become Russian targets, threatening to expand the war - and that is one of the main reasons the ideologues have been pushing for the F16s, they want to escalate the war.
movielover
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You're knowledgeable on these matters. My guess, given Putin's history, is that he wouldn't hit them in these countries, but the moment they crossed into Ukraine. Hopefully while more Europeans wake up. Colonel McGregor alleges that Britain is pushing for war, the others aren't interested.
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

dimitrig said:

Russia can barely even wage war on its own borders.
There is an endless supply of anecdotes of problems with the Russian military - what I've posted over the last year is just the tip of the iceberg.


The world's greatest military wouldn't have these stories:


The world's greatest military wouldn't force teenagers to build weapons and wouldn't need to catfish people:


A lot of your content follows this format, highly dubious propagandistic pundits like Dmitri or that ChrisO here, posting a steady stream of anecdotal storyboarding without any real basis, but the stories will stick with the poorly-informed audience primed with heavy anti-Russian cultural propaganda.

You start with a photo of a shot-up phone, and build on top of it a narrative of a mutiny, all of this storyboarding riding on a Telegram post. A shot-up phone becomes bulletproof evidence of complete Russian military disarray.

Or throw a photo of African schoolgirls, and build a very creative story of some kind of a child traffic slave worker as the dark hidden secret behind the Russian war machine...

It takes an incredible amount of cultural naivety to buy into that stream of propaganda. Unfortunately that naivety is there in spades, a reconditioned, updated 2020s liberal version of this older mindset, which has fed the US neocon endless war machine decades ago:


Those kind of fantastical narratives stick because people have the weirdest and most pejorative notions about Russia. Everything Russian sucks! Their weapons suck, their culture sucks and of course their leaders suck. And if you disagree, you must be a Putin shill! Cruelty runs in their veins, they will invade all their neighbors, for no reason. Because they just can't help it, that's what they do, they are Russian. They will even blow up their own pipelines, bomb the nuclear powerplant in the territory their control, and bomb the dam in the territory they control, because they just can't help it, they are Russian!!
Unit2Sucks
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Everything is going to plan 520 days into Russia's 3-day war. The information below is the sort of stuff you would expect to see with a flourishing economy and war effort.

There is a lot more happening including wild amounts of misinformation (like Russia claiming to have shot down 12 storm shadows last night to protect a railway while they would also say that Ukraine doesn't have the air capacity to launch 12 storm shadows). This laughably false claim was probably made to obscure the fact that Ukraine damaged the Chonhar bridge which connects Crimea to Kherson (which has been acknowledged by Russian officials). Given Russia's self-proclaimed defensive superiority, it's a wonder they didn't choose to shoot down the missiles which hit the bridge.

We will certainly know a lot more in a week or two about the current offensives than we do now but it's pretty clear that both sides are being far more active now than just a week ago.

On to the stuff outside the fog of war.

According to the Russian central bank, a record $253B in capital has fled the country since the beginning of 2022.
Quote:

A record $253 billion has been pulled out of Russia since the start of its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the Russian Central Bank has said.

The net capital outflow from Russia starting February 2022 and ending June 2023 was calculated by the Bank's Center for Macroeconomic Analysis and Forecasting.

"Net inflows on current transaction accounts [of $236 billion] and net outflows on financial accounts have reached unprecedented levels," the Bank's experts said in their analysis published Monday.

The flight of $239 billion from Russia last year, including $13 billion in the pre-invasion month of January, was four times the amount that was pulled out of the country in 2021, according to the analysis.

Another $27 billion has been taken out of Russia so far in 2023.

The rate of capital flight relative to GDP hit 13% in 2022, breaking the previous record of 11% seen both during the 2008 global financial crisis and after Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea from Ukraine, according to The Moscow Times' Russian service.

The average rate of capital outflow over the previous 13 years stood at 5%, according to MT Russian.

While we all know that the shills claim that Russia has infinite industrial capacity for artillery and other weapons, and that they have massive stockpiles, they will also claim that Russia's defense minister going shopping in North Korea for *checks notes* just about everything isn't a sign that Russia may have less inventory than the propaganda would mislead people to believe.







sycasey
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Cal88 said:

A lot of your content follows this format, highly dubious propagandistic pundits like Dmitri or that ChrisO here,

Lord knows Cal88 would never share anything from propagandistic pundits!
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

Here's an interesting discussion in the Financial Times with Timothy Snyder. I've mentioned him a few times - he's an expert scholar on Ukraine, Russia and more and thinks the west and the US have been very wrong about Putin for a long time.



The article starts by mentioning that a Ukrainian friend of Snyder's who has been documenting Russian war crimes was recently killed when Russia destroyed a restaurant in the Donbas with a missile recently.

The whole article is a great read but this is the part I would highlight:

Quote:


"Putin blah blah", says Snyder.

As to the meta-discussion about this thread, I think in time the credibility of the posters will become self-evident, even if for whatever reason it hasn't already. Just like we saw the same person predicting with delusional certainty that Trump would win on election night in 2020 (and lost bets over it) and predicted in July 2020 that COVID was disappearing in Europe and that the US would follow suit in August 2020, and claimed that Damar Hamlin's career was 100% over due to a heart injury from the COVID vaccine, we will be able to evaluate who had good takes and who had bad takes in this thread.

I'm willing to stand behind my statements. I won't pretend that every single thing I've posted has turned out to be 100% true - as sycasey points out we are very much in the fog of war but I strive to only post high quality content and to include limitations where I find it appropriate. I evaluate the credibility of my sources and stick with ones who have been strong. I'm pretty careful not to make statements that I don't think are accurate (unlike the shills) and it's important to me that I not damage my credibility, even if no one else is keeping track or cares.

I don't think I've made a single wild predictions which turned out to be laughably false like the McDoofus of the Putin wing and like we've seen time and time again in this thread from Putin's guard. I haven't made very many predictions or projections at all because I don't know what will happen, certainly not to the level of specificity that the Putin guard pretends they can predict.

The war is playing out in real time and a lot of the future will depend on the level of Western support. If the US were to permit Ukraine to receive better aid (F16s, ATACMS, etc.), Ukraine's chances will improve. I don't know what will happen and neither does anyone else.

I do have some theories which I've been clear about and I'm careful to share them. There are also obvious things that I know - Putin and the Kremlin are reprehensible and that they are running a concerted and massive misinformation campaign. There really is nothing to debate there. I haven't made fanciful projections about death counts because I have no basis for doing so. I haven't ever stated what I thought the current casualty numbers are because I have no basis to do so. Other people have for reasons which I think are pretty obvious. The people doing so have in every case been amplifying Russian talking points.

We already know enough to determine who has been credible in this thread and who isn't. Unfortunately it's a massive amount of work given the volume of information shared, so I don't blame people for not doing it. That's why I put people on ignore - combating their misinformation (which they receive in firehose form) is more or less a full-time job.

But anyone paying attention can remember the Bakhmut discussion as an example. The Russian shills claimed that it was a decisive strategic win and hugely important for Russia's war efforts for reasons that they pretty much made up. Several months later, Russia has gotten no military benefit from Bakhmut and may end up losing it because Wagner isn't there to fight. Official Russian channels claimed in the wake of the Prigozhin mutiny that Bakhmut wasn't strategic and was just a vanity campaign by Prigozhin. If Ukraine retakes Bakhmut, the Russian shills will claim it didn't matter with as much force as they claimed that it mattered when Russia took it. It's not just a coincidence that they align 100% with Russian propaganda. I see this type of brazen propaganda all over the internet and I'm certain if I turned off ignore and started scrutinizing the Putin guard's posting history again, I would find it to be rife with obvious misinformation, always to the benefit of Putin and Russia. That's not worth my time and it doesn't seem like anyone really cares at this point.

I also am aware that most people don't care for or bother to read what I post here and that's perfectly fine with me. I am happy enough to be ignored. I am using this thread somewhat as a journal that I can go back and reference later to assess how I did in sharing information about this war. That's just sort of how my brain works because I find it interesting.


I can't respond to every point, but I will try, because every point you've made here is flat out wrong.

-Tim Snyder is exactly the type of neocon war pusher infesting academia, he's motivated by a visceral hatred of Russia combined with jingoistic hubris, which makes it hard to know whether he's willfully lying about the war and Russia, or whether like many ideologues running US foreign policy, he has drunk his own koolaid.



Ukraine's army is getting destroyed, the counteroffensive is failing, badly. The whole idea was half-baked and stupid, based on the complete underestimation of Russian multipronged capabilities and of their defensive plan, laid out by Sorovikin last year, as if storming miles of heavily-mined open fields without air cover was ever going to work.

Ukraine has been playing into Russia's hands, the Russians have been sitting back and picking off one armored column attack after the other, sometimes yielding to kitchen sink attacks only to reduce Ukrainian greyzone advances to concentrated artillery barrages. These "fire pockets" are a main feature of the Russian defensive structure. Thursday's much ballyhooed Ukrainian advance into the village of Staromaiorske was heavily shelled for 24hrs and pushed back. Almost all the Ukrainain soldiers killed in that operation never saw a Russian soldier.



Tim Snyder:
Quote:

"The thing is, Russia can't have a domestic policy," Snyder muses. "The elite have stolen all the money, all the laws are corrupted, and there's almost no social mobility or possibility of change in most Russians' lives, so foreign policy has to compensate and provide the raw material the scenography for governance."
Russia is a country where higher education is free, where food, gas, heating and world-class public transit are dirt cheap (50c for the Moscow subway), where home ownership rates (92.5%) dwarf that of France, US, Germany or the UK, Russia has no significant state debt and full employment - unheard of in Europe, but yeah, no social mobility there. Russia might be the only country in Europe where the average citizen's purchasing power has been rising the past two decades, with clean, crime-free modern large cities.

Maybe Tim Snyder should look into the social mobility issues of his native Ohio town for some added perspective.
https://www.wyso.org/business-economy-news-ohio/2023-05-15/dayton-functional-unemployment-rate-third-highest-in-the-nation-report-finds

Quote:

U2S sez:

I'm willing to stand behind my statements. I won't pretend that every single thing I've posted has turned out to be 100% true -
I'd settle for 10% or 20%, which would be a significant improvement.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

A lot of your content follows this format, highly dubious propagandistic pundits like Dmitri or that ChrisO here,

Lord knows Cal88 would never share anything from propagandistic pundits!

Like Anton Gerashchenko there above repeatedly cited by U2S, the Ukrainian goon who founded of the Ukrainian kill list, that has several journalists who were actually killed, and even has on that kill list Ukrainian children whose only crime was to visit Crimea with their families? No senor.
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

Everything is going to plan 520 days into Russia's 3-day war. The information below is the sort of stuff you would expect to see with a flourishing economy and war effort.

There is a lot more happening including wild amounts of misinformation (like Russia claiming to have shot down 12 storm shadows last night to protect a railway while they would also say that Ukraine doesn't have the air capacity to launch 12 storm shadows). This laughably false claim was probably made to obscure the fact that Ukraine damaged the Chonhar bridge which connects Crimea to Kherson (which has been acknowledged by Russian officials). Given Russia's self-proclaimed defensive superiority, it's a wonder they didn't choose to shoot down the missiles which hit the bridge.

We will certainly know a lot more in a week or two about the current offensives than we do now but it's pretty clear that both sides are being far more active now than just a week ago.

On to the stuff outside the fog of war.

According to the Russian central bank, a record $253B in capital has fled the country since the beginning of 2022.
Quote:

A record $253 billion has been pulled out of Russia since the start of its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the Russian Central Bank has said.

The net capital outflow from Russia starting February 2022 and ending June 2023 was calculated by the Bank's Center for Macroeconomic Analysis and Forecasting.

"Net inflows on current transaction accounts [of $236 billion] and net outflows on financial accounts have reached unprecedented levels," the Bank's experts said in their analysis published Monday.

The flight of $239 billion from Russia last year, including $13 billion in the pre-invasion month of January, was four times the amount that was pulled out of the country in 2021, according to the analysis.

Another $27 billion has been taken out of Russia so far in 2023.

The rate of capital flight relative to GDP hit 13% in 2022, breaking the previous record of 11% seen both during the 2008 global financial crisis and after Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea from Ukraine, according to The Moscow Times' Russian service.

The average rate of capital outflow over the previous 13 years stood at 5%, according to MT Russian.


Russia has recorded a net surplus of $13B in the first quarter of 2023, and a net surplus of a much bigger amount over 2022:


https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/capital-flows#:~:text=Capital%20Flows%20in%20Russia%20averaged,the%20fourth%20quarter%20of%202014.


Quote:

While we all know that the shills claim that Russia has infinite industrial capacity for artillery and other weapons, and that they have massive stockpiles, they will also claim that Russia's defense minister going shopping in North Korea for *checks notes* just about everything isn't a sign that Russia may have less inventory than the propaganda would mislead people to believe.

North Korea has one of the largest stockpile of cannons, shells and other basic artillery equipment in the world. It might even be the largest stockpile in the world today, just ahead of those of Russia and China. So for Russia, it's a no-brainer to tap into this enormous inventory, which they can get at bottom rates without spending any cash, and delivered to the frontline by rail in a week, in exchange for some oil, iron, wheat that Russia has up the wazoo and that NK is in dire need of.

This is a sound procurement strategy for Russia, they can get the basics (shells, tubes etc) from NK while focusing their domestic production on higher-tech and higher-value items like tanks, jet fighters, attack helicopters, drones and hypersonics. The fact that they are taking this step only today indicates that they haven't had serious procurement issues up to now, and are probably planning well in advance their war inventory.
Big C
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While I fully understand that it's an oversimplification to talk about "good guys" versus "bad guys", I'm not too impressed by the goodness of the Russia/Iran/North Korea triumvirate (China having one foot in the door, but wondering how closely they want to be associated with those other three).

Imagine if we suddenly had open borders throughout the world, what might happen to the populations of those three countries. Russia, of course, would see a mass influx of people looking for work, to balance out their exodus.

People vote with their feet, if they can.
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:


While I fully understand that it's an oversimplification to talk about "good guys" versus "bad guys", I'm not too impressed by the goodness of the Russia/Iran/North Korea triumvirate (China having one foot in the door, but wondering how closely they want to be associated with those other three).

Imagine if we suddenly had open borders throughout the world, what might happen to the populations of those three countries. Russia, of course, would see a mass influx of people looking for work, to balance out their exodus.

People vote with their feet, if they can.
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to evaluate a country's people and culture based on its leadership. North Korea, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia and many other places live under corrupt autocracies. If Trump is successful in the US, we will as well. Their leaders and systems of government are oppressive and repressive. They don't have anywhere close to the level of freedom of the US (as guaranteed by our constitution) or many other countries but that doesn't mean we should judge their populations negatively.

I have a number of Russian friends and I also have Russian heritage. I don't think criticizing Putin and Russia's corrupt kleptocracy is an indictment of the Russian people. Unlike the Russian shills who feign outrage at "russiaphobes" while demagoguing Ukrainians as nazis who repress Russians and have no rights to their own sovereignty. They talk about Russia having a "proud heritage" and then claim that Ukraine isn't a real country. It's all ridiculous BS.

To be honest it reminds me of white supremacists who use "culture" as a cudgel to attack minorities. It's entirely consistent with Putin's messaging around Ukraine and is utterly manipulative and ridiculous. Russia's unprovoked invasion against Ukraine is wrong regardless of whether some person could proclaim that Russia has a richer heritage or whatever.

It's all part of the elaborate Russian propaganda war and I expect that no one here falls for it. The reason that Russia is aligning itself with the countries with the worst autocracies and leaders is because they all suffer from the same problems - if they allowed their citizens to move freely, they would see mass exodus' (Russia has already seen massive brain drain and expatriation) and so they have aligned interests. As I noted earlier today, Russia has seen more capital flight (meaning people are taking their money out of Russia's financial system) because people are voting with their wallets.



Cal88
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Big C said:


While I fully understand that it's an oversimplification to talk about "good guys" versus "bad guys", I'm not too impressed by the goodness of the Russia/Iran/North Korea triumvirate (China having one foot in the door, but wondering how closely they want to be associated with those other three).

Imagine if we suddenly had open borders throughout the world, what might happen to the populations of those three countries. Russia, of course, would see a mass influx of people looking for work, to balance out their exodus.

People vote with their feet, if they can.

If we had open borders, billions among the masses in the third world would choose to go to western Europe and the 5 Eyes countries because they would instantly get welfare worth several times their average income at home.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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Cal88 said:

Big C said:


While I fully understand that it's an oversimplification to talk about "good guys" versus "bad guys", I'm not too impressed by the goodness of the Russia/Iran/North Korea triumvirate (China having one foot in the door, but wondering how closely they want to be associated with those other three).

Imagine if we suddenly had open borders throughout the world, what might happen to the populations of those three countries. Russia, of course, would see a mass influx of people looking for work, to balance out their exodus.

People vote with their feet, if they can.

If we had open borders, billions among the masses in the third world would choose to go to western Europe and the 5 Eyes countries because they would instantly get welfare worth several times their average income at home.
You think people want to migrate from the third world to richer countries because of welfare? That tells me much about you.
movielover
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Cal88 said:

Big C said:


While I fully understand that it's an oversimplification to talk about "good guys" versus "bad guys", I'm not too impressed by the goodness of the Russia/Iran/North Korea triumvirate (China having one foot in the door, but wondering how closely they want to be associated with those other three).

Imagine if we suddenly had open borders throughout the world, what might happen to the populations of those three countries. Russia, of course, would see a mass influx of people looking for work, to balance out their exodus.

People vote with their feet, if they can.

If we had open borders, billions among the masses in the third world would choose to go to western Europe and the 5 Eyes countries because they would instantly get welfare worth several times their average income at home.


It's already happening, and look at the results.

London looks uncivilized, knife attacks galore. "Grooming" (rape and pimp) gangs are rampant in smaller towns and prey on teenage foster girls (culprits primarily Pakistani takeaway drivers).

Paris is on the brink of anarchy, including many no-go zones.

Sweden is the rape Capitol of Europe.

Cities in Ireland now have citizens attacked by immigrants from northern Africa and the Middle East.

What will it look like in 10 years?
movielover
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That's part of why they do it. Illegal immigrants here get an education, free health care, welfare, free food at school, food sent home for the weekend, free child care, Head Start, etc.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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movielover said:

That's part of why they do it. Illegal immigrants here get an education, free health care, welfare, free food at school, food sent home for the weekend, free child care, Head Start, etc.
People have been migrating between countries for many centuries. Up until relatively recent times, there wasn't a social safety net. They did it to find better jobs and better lives. Do some people migrating to 1st world countries just want to freeload off the system? Sure some do. I believe most want to find jobs. Why do so many end up working in construction, farming, restaurants, food processing plants,etc? Because they want to work, not get a barely subsistence level existence from welfare handouts. That's what they were fleeing from.
Unit2Sucks
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

People have been migrating between countries for many centuries. Up until relatively recent times, there wasn't a social safety net. They did it to find better jobs and better lives. Do some people migrating to 1st world countries just want to freeload off the system? Sure some do. I believe most want to find jobs. Why do so many end up working in construction, farming, restaurants, food processing plants,etc? Because they want to work, not get a barely subsistence level existence from welfare handouts. That's what they were fleeing from.


I alluded to this in my post above but I find there is a correlation between people who pretend / amplify Putin's anti Ukrainian propaganda about Nazis while espousing obvious white supremacist views.

When they talk about the great replacement theory and other related xenophobic drivel, hard to take them seriously as anti Nazi crusaders.

All the more so for failing to acknowledge that Russia has its own Nazis and other similar car right extremists to deal with.
BearHunter
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Unit2Sucks said:


I alluded to this in my post above but I find there is a correlation between people who pretend / amplify Putin's anti Ukrainian propaganda about Nazis while espousing obvious white supremacist views.

When they talk about the great replacement theory and other related xenophobic drivel, hard to take them seriously as anti Nazi crusaders.

All the more so for failing to acknowledge that Russia has its own Nazis and other similar car right extremists to deal with.

There is a correlation between the type of people who owned slaves in the U.S. and the type of people who support the Azov Nazi Ukraine army.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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BearHunter said:

Unit2Sucks said:


I alluded to this in my post above but I find there is a correlation between people who pretend / amplify Putin's anti Ukrainian propaganda about Nazis while espousing obvious white supremacist views.

When they talk about the great replacement theory and other related xenophobic drivel, hard to take them seriously as anti Nazi crusaders.

All the more so for failing to acknowledge that Russia has its own Nazis and other similar car right extremists to deal with.

There is a correlation between the type of people who owned slaves in the U.S. and the type of people who support the Azov Nazi Ukraine army.
I'm fairly confident that slave owners, being dead for at least the last hundred years or so, never supported any form of Nazis.
Unit2Sucks
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Russian propaganda is on blast right now. There have been some really ridiculous claims made lately.

I'm sure it's because things are going great for Putin and their stupid war.











Cal88
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

movielover said:

That's part of why they do it. Illegal immigrants here get an education, free health care, welfare, free food at school, food sent home for the weekend, free child care, Head Start, etc.
People have been migrating between countries for many centuries. Up until relatively recent times, there wasn't a social safety net. They did it to find better jobs and better lives. Do some people migrating to 1st world countries just want to freeload off the system? Sure some do. I believe most want to find jobs. Why do so many end up working in construction, farming, restaurants, food processing plants,etc? Because they want to work, not get a barely subsistence level existence from welfare handouts. That's what they were fleeing from.

Not quite, the immigration patterns have drastically changed the last few decades, especially in Europe, where mass migration has been allowed through family reunion clauses only started being implemented in the 1980s, then institutionalized through the EU with immigrants being able to claim refugee status upon entry into the Shengen visa block.

Your frame of reference is CA and rural Oregon, where nearly all migrants are from Central American and find work in farms, restaurants, construction etc. In Europe most countries have had structural unemployment for decades now, and these lower-end jobs already are sought after by locals, both from European and established citizens of immigrant background. It's not that easy to land a kitchen or construction job in France or Italy. Refugees get stipends that far exceed their previous incomes including unemployment benefits.

Having large number of unemployed recent immigrants from cultures that are very different from local ones leads to their not integrating, and to social problems. The immigration volume should be commensurate with a country's capacity to absorb that flow. in Europe it's been several times above that ,for several decades now.
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

People have been migrating between countries for many centuries. Up until relatively recent times, there wasn't a social safety net. They did it to find better jobs and better lives. Do some people migrating to 1st world countries just want to freeload off the system? Sure some do. I believe most want to find jobs. Why do so many end up working in construction, farming, restaurants, food processing plants,etc? Because they want to work, not get a barely subsistence level existence from welfare handouts. That's what they were fleeing from.


I alluded to this in my post above but I find there is a correlation between people who pretend / amplify Putin's anti Ukrainian propaganda about Nazis while espousing obvious white supremacist views.

When they talk about the great replacement theory and other related xenophobic drivel, hard to take them seriously as anti Nazi crusaders.

All the more so for failing to acknowledge that Russia has its own Nazis and other similar car right extremists to deal with.

There is absolutely no equivalency between the nationalist ideology of the current Ukrainian government, which is rooted in 1930s/40s nazi ideology of the western Ukrainian OUN/UPA, and the Russian far right. Nazism is illegal in Russia, in fact the bona fide Russian neo-nazis are actually fighting against Russia, as part of the Ukrainian army, they led the incursion into Belgorad, Russia in May:

https://bearinsider.com/forums/6/topics/107414/replies/2174964

There is absolutely no equivalency to this aberration, which has been normalized in Ukraine:


Stepan Bandera, who has led the mass slaughter of over 100,000 Jews, Poles and Russian civilians in the 1940s as the leader of the largest non-German SS division in WW2 has been enshrined by the post-Maidan coup govt. as Ukraine's founding father, with many large monuments recently built to his glory and main thoroughfares recently renamed after him by city councils from nearly every large city in western Ukraine.


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265341805_Bandera_memorialization_and_commemoration

Bandera is a hated figure among the Russophones in eastern and southern Ukraine. The radical neo-nazi ideology espoused by Kiev since 2014 has led to a deep cleavage within Ukraine that has fueled the civil war that flared in 2014 in the Donbas.

No equivalency whatsover.
sycasey
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The current Nazi Ukrainian government and its Jewish president.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

Having large number of unemployed recent immigrants from cultures that are very different from local ones leads to their not integrating, and to social problems.

Having laws that make it very difficult for immigrants to find work or become citizens leads to not integrating and social problems. This is one area where the US is clearly superior to our European allies.
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