oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Once again: if the Ukrainians wanted to sign a deal with Russia, they could have. Boris Johnson could complain all he wanted but he could not force them.

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I'm assuming this is being dredged up again because Russia continues to underperform but I won't test that theory by reading ignored posts.

It's true that Ukraine could have signed a deal but what good would it have done? No one in Ukraine had any reason to believe that Putin would live up to any written agreement since he has never done so before. Ukraine got severely burned by giving up its nukes and trusting Russia previously, so why would they do it again?

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This is the primary reason the Ukrainians give for why they didn't make a deal with Russia (also that the news of the Bucha Massacre came out and killed all diplomatic momentum), but of course the Putin fans want to continue ignoring that and talk about Boris Johnson.

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I heard the Russians don't want to sign a peace deal involving the U.S. or England after what we did to Native Americans and England did to India.

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I'm sure you had a point here originally, but somehow it flitted away.

sycasey said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Once again: if the Ukrainians wanted to sign a deal with Russia, they could have. Boris Johnson could complain all he wanted but he could not force them.

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I'm assuming this is being dredged up again because Russia continues to underperform but I won't test that theory by reading ignored posts.

It's true that Ukraine could have signed a deal but what good would it have done? No one in Ukraine had any reason to believe that Putin would live up to any written agreement since he has never done so before. Ukraine got severely burned by giving up its nukes and trusting Russia previously, so why would they do it again?

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This is the primary reason the Ukrainians give for why they didn't make a deal with Russia (also that the news of the Bucha Massacre came out and killed all diplomatic momentum), but of course the Putin fans want to continue ignoring that and talk about Boris Johnson.

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Your crew conveniently leaves out that NATO / USA were arming Ukraine to the teeth the past 8 years; and many European leaders have publicly shared their intentions were two-faced regarding the existing peace Minsk Accords I and II ... it was all a ruse in order to build up Ukraine and "weaken Russia". They don't have clean hands.

movielover said:

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sycasey said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Once again: if the Ukrainians wanted to sign a deal with Russia, they could have. Boris Johnson could complain all he wanted but he could not force them.

---

I'm assuming this is being dredged up again because Russia continues to underperform but I won't test that theory by reading ignored posts.

It's true that Ukraine could have signed a deal but what good would it have done? No one in Ukraine had any reason to believe that Putin would live up to any written agreement since he has never done so before. Ukraine got severely burned by giving up its nukes and trusting Russia previously, so why would they do it again?

---

This is the primary reason the Ukrainians give for why they didn't make a deal with Russia (also that the news of the Bucha Massacre came out and killed all diplomatic momentum), but of course the Putin fans want to continue ignoring that and talk about Boris Johnson.

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Your crew conveniently leaves out that NATO / USA were arming Ukraine to the teeth the past 8 years

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In response to Russia's invasion of Crimea, yes.

sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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sycasey said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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Once again: if the Ukrainians wanted to sign a deal with Russia, they could have. Boris Johnson could complain all he wanted but he could not force them.

---

I'm assuming this is being dredged up again because Russia continues to underperform but I won't test that theory by reading ignored posts.

It's true that Ukraine could have signed a deal but what good would it have done? No one in Ukraine had any reason to believe that Putin would live up to any written agreement since he has never done so before. Ukraine got severely burned by giving up its nukes and trusting Russia previously, so why would they do it again?

---

This is the primary reason the Ukrainians give for why they didn't make a deal with Russia (also that the news of the Bucha Massacre came out and killed all diplomatic momentum), but of course the Putin fans want to continue ignoring that and talk about Boris Johnson.

---

Your crew conveniently leaves out that NATO / USA were arming Ukraine to the teeth the past 8 years

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In response to Russia's invasion of Crimea, yes.

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1- Crimeans don't want to be with post-Maidan Ukraine, a regime whose cultural dogma is Galician nationalism, which represses the culture of the Russophone Crimean majority. The average Crimean is repulsed by the notion of elevating Bandera to the status of a founding father, and they don't want restrictions placed on the use of their native language in schools, media, workplaces or government.

2- Russia was never going to let Kiev invade Crimea after Crimea voted to join Russia.

The annexation of Crimea to Russia was done peacefully, through a referendum where the overwhelming majority of locals voted to join Russia, as confirmed by several major polls by western agencies.

After Crimea seceded from Ukraine, Kiev cut off Crimea's water out of pure spite, dumping Crimea's freshwater into the Black Sea.

Crimea has done very well after joining Russia, they've seen huge investments into their infrastructure, boom in tourism, construction, and restored their agriculture after Russia rebuilt their freshwater aqueduct.

Cal88 said:

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The blame for this war lies squarely on Boris Johnson, Tory Nuland et al. What Cbass, myself, ML et al have been stating over and over has just been vindicated by Zelensky's party parliamentary leader himself:

🇺🇦🇷🇺🚨‼️ BOMBSHELL: Ukraine admits that Russia only wanted neutrality from them!

Russia wanted Ukraine to be neutral like Finnland was! But Ukraine was not sure if they can trust it and then Boris Johnson came and said:
-> “We will not sign anything, let’s do war!”

I knew it! pic.twitter.com/fw1OF4wMuL

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) November 24, 2023

According to David Arakhamia when he together with Ukraine's delegation came back to Kiev from 2930 March peace negotiations in Istanbul Boris Johnson came to Ukraine and said ''we will not sign anything at all with them, lets just fight!''

The rest is history.

Today Ukraine can only dream about those conditions it was offered.

This is an incredibly damning piece of historical evidence: pic.twitter.com/9jclMog1VD

This is Davyd Arakhamia, parliamentary leader of Zelensky's ''Servant of the People'' party. He led the Ukrainian delegation at peace talks with the Russians in Belarus and Türkiye in 2022, a few…

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) November 25, 2023

Here's what he says:

- He confirms that Russia's principal goal for the war wasn't to invade the whole of Ukraine but to force Ukraine to become a neutral country that would not be part of NATO: "[Russia] really hoped almost to the last moment that they would force us to sign such an agreement so that we would take neutrality. It was the most important thing for them. They were prepared to end the war if we agreed to, as Finland once did, neutrality, and committed that we would not join NATO. In fact, this was the key point. Everything else was simply rhetoric and political 'seasoning' about denazification, the Russian-speaking population and blah-blah-blah."

- When asked why Ukraine did not agree to this, here's what he says: "First, in order to agree to this point, it is necessary to change the Constitution. Our path to NATO is written in the Constitution. Secondly, there was no confidence in the Russians that they would do it. This could only be done if there were security guarantees. We could not sign something, step away, everyone would relax there, and then they would [invade] even more prepared because they had, in fact, gone in unprepared for such a resistance. Therefore, we could only explore this route when there is absolute certainty that this will not happen again. There is no such certainty. Moreover, when we returned from Istanbul, Boris Johnson came to Kyiv and said that we would not sign anything with them at all, and let's just fight."

He's actually not being very forthright about the "no confidence in the Russians so this could only be done if there were security guarantees" claim, because from the media reports at the time in early 2022, this aspect of the deal was getting concretized. It's even still up on Ukraine's official presidency website: https://president.gov.ua/en/news/na-peregovorah-iz-rosiyeyu-ukrayinska-delegaciya-oficijno-pr-73933… The concept was that permanent members of the UN Security Council would be the guarantors of the deal, alongside Turkey, Germany, Canada, Italy, Poland and Israel. The issue seems to have been that those security guarantees were "greeted with skepticism" by "Western officials", as highlighted in this WSJ piece from back then: https://wsj.com/articles/ukraine-proposal-for-nato-style-security-guarantee-greeted-with-skepticism-11648683375…

So this, combined with Arakhamia's confirmation that what really killed the deal was "Boris Johnson [coming] to Kyiv and [saying] that we would not sign anything with them at all, and let's just fight" shows that it is unequivocally the West that killed the peace deal.

Which confirms the extremely damning responsibility of the West in this war because we're at a stage, 20 months later, when not only has Ukraine lost a horrifying amount of men (likely hundreds of thousands of deaths) but they couldn't dream of getting such favorable conditions in a peace deal that the West is NOW pressuring them to make. And I won't even get into the responsibility of the West in triggering this conflict in the first place with the expansion of NATO and the transformation of Ukraine into a Western bulwark on Russia's border…

Will there be any reckoning? Any admission of this responsibility? Any accountability? Any change, any rethinking in order to avoid such catastrophic failures in the future? Sadly I don't even see the first inkling of the beginning of this, especially in Europe. And this is what makes me most depressed: it shows we're institutionally set in our erroneous ways with no capability to learn, adapt and change."

INCREDIBLE!

David Arakhamia, parliamentary leader of Zelensky's ''Servant of the People'' confirmed today in an interview what many speculated for close to 2 years.

If Ukraine agreed to remain neutral country not joining NATO Putin was ready to end the war at the end of March… pic.twitter.com/l3vtni1NtE

— Global Thinker (@talkrealopinion) November 24, 2023

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You beat me to the punch, Cal88!

Here's the original version -- again, straight from the English version of Ukrainska Pravda (which reported on BoJo's influence back in Spring of 2022):

Head of Ukraine's leading party claims Russia proposed "peace" in exchange for neutrality

Also:
Top Ukrainian politician David Arakhamia gives seventh confirmation of Russia-Ukraine peace deal agreed in March 2022

I really do not understand the Putin apologists. Why do they work so hard to excuse the Russian aggression? Why do they seem to actually be rooting for Russia to destroy Ukraine and "win" against the US and NATO? They are not just discussing the complexity of the region and all the factors at play, they are actively anti-Ukriane and Pro-Russia. I just can't for the life of me get it. How do you live through the last 30 years and see all the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy and be cheering for them?

Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

Or is this just another step in the march to authoritarianism. Attraction to the "strong men" in Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, North Korea, US, and Russia?

There is no tone to their posts that we are all fellow Americans attempting to do what is best for our national security and our ethical humanitarian obligations, no objective talk of pros and cons and seeking agreement, instead just trumpeting their supposed expertise; adopting contrarian and argumentative positions that reward and excuse Russian aggression; and posting memes, tweets, and quotes from hardline military sites with "cold logical reality of inevitable Russian victory." I don't get the motivation. I don't understand the lens. And I don't understand the lack of empathy for people who are being killed trying to survive and secure the nation they have worked so hard to make independent.

blungld said:

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Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

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For most of them it's just unthinking anti-Americanism. It comes from both the left and the right. Everyone wants to snipe at the big dog. (And that's something I'd generally support doing! It just doesn't make sense in this case. Between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is the big dog.)

And for a smaller subset, they are literally getting paid by Russia.

sycasey said:

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blungld said:

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Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

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For most of them it's just unthinking anti-Americanism. It comes from both the left and the right. Everyone wants to snipe at the big dog. (And that's something I'd generally support doing! It just doesn't make sense in this case. Between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is the big dog.)

And for a smaller subset, they are literally getting paid by Russia.

---

You are also probably seeing an uptick in ridiculous claims because Russia is seeing extremely heavy losses right now - some say the heaviest of the war. Putin is desperate for some sort of win so he is throwing wave after wave of untrained mobik into the Avdiivka battle.

Latest updates.

The invaders are suffering some of the highest casualty rates since the war began. pic.twitter.com/jvUeCRGuB5

— Shaun Pinner (@olddog100ua) November 27, 2023

Of course, this is also part of why so many of the same Russian shills were pushing the party line on the Hamas attack and the Israeli reprisal, in which Iran and Russia played a supporting role. Anything to take the energy away from Russia's disastrous war against Ukraine. They hoped (and continue to hope) that the world's resolve to help Ukraine (which has always been quite measured and limited) will weaken so that Russia will have a better chance to wreak havoc without opposition.

I guess it's time for the shills on twitter to get back to making up Ukrainian casualty numbers (are they pretending they are up to 1 million yet?) while completely ignoring all Russian casualties.

Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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blungld said:

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Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

---

For most of them it's just unthinking anti-Americanism. It comes from both the left and the right. Everyone wants to snipe at the big dog. (And that's something I'd generally support doing! It just doesn't make sense in this case. Between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is the big dog.)

And for a smaller subset, they are literally getting paid by Russia.

---

You are also probably seeing an uptick in ridiculous claims because Russia is seeing extremely heavy losses right now - some say the heaviest of the war. Putin is desperate for some sort of win so he is throwing wave after wave of untrained mobik into the Avdiivka battle.

Latest updates.

The invaders are suffering some of the highest casualty rates since the war began. pic.twitter.com/jvUeCRGuB5

— Shaun Pinner (@olddog100ua) November 27, 2023

Of course, this is also part of why so many of the same Russian shills were pushing the party line on the Hamas attack and the Israeli reprisal, in which Iran and Russia played a supporting role. Anything to take the energy away from Russia's disastrous war against Ukraine. They hoped (and continue to hope) that the world's resolve to help Ukraine (which has always been quite measured and limited) will weaken so that Russia will have a better chance to wreak havoc without opposition.

I guess it's time for the shills on twitter to get back to making up Ukrainian casualty numbers (are they pretending we are up to 1 million yet?) while completely ignoring all Russian casualties.

---

That post is not going to age well. Ukraine is being decimated in Avdiivka, the higher ranks have already left, leaving the grunts behind. U2S wants to tell us that it is the Russians (in red) who are being surrounded here:

Ukrainian soldiers of the 3rd and 4th battalions of the 110th brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces deserted from their positions near Avdiivka. The moral and psychological state of the Ukrainian military has become critically low due to the losses suffered, reports

The… pic.twitter.com/Q2rjcZQkZg

— ⏳Towhee 🌏☮️ (@amborin) November 24, 2023

The British Ministry of Defense is lying, the British press disagrees:


Ukraine is the side that went through 17 rounds of conscription and has been fielding pregnant women and 60 year old men in the frontlines, yet we are to believe that their casualty numbers are relatively low? The conscription age in Russia is 18 to 30, while in Ukraine it is 16 to 60. And yes Ukrainian casualty levels (KIA + wounded) are up near the million mark today. If that weren't the case, you wouldn't have had an army of grandfathers.

Ukraine's death rate is unsustainable, at this rate the war is going to be over next year - the sooner, the better because there aren't many men left in Ukraine who want to volunteer and most are being sent against their will.

blungld said:

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I really do not understand the Putin apologists. Why do they work so hard to excuse the Russian aggression? Why do they seem to actually be rooting for Russia to destroy Ukraine and "win" against the US and NATO? They are not just discussing the complexity of the region and all the factors at play, they are actively anti-Ukriane and Pro-Russia. I just can't for the life of me get it. How do you live through the last 30 years and see all the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy and be cheering for them?

Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

Or is this just another step in the march to authoritarianism. Attraction to the "strong men" in Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, North Korea, US, and Russia?

There is no tone to their posts that we are all fellow Americans attempting to do what is best for our national security and our ethical humanitarian obligations, no objective talk of pros and cons and seeking agreement, instead just trumpeting their supposed expertise; adopting contrarian and argumentative positions that reward and excuse Russian aggression; and posting memes, tweets, and quotes from hardline military sites with "cold logical reality of inevitable Russian victory." I don't get the motivation. I don't understand the lens. And I don't understand the lack of empathy for people who are being killed trying to survive and secure the nation they have worked so hard to make independent.

---

The overriding directive here -"ethical humanitarian obligation" was to avoid the war - to work out deal that preserved Ukraine and the lives of half a million soldiers, as well as the rights of its large cultural minority.

Instead NATO pushed Ukraine into a suicidally hostile stance towards Russia and the Donbass rebels.

Quote:

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For most of them it's just unthinking anti-Americanism. It comes from both the left and the right. Everyone wants to snipe at the big dog. (And that's something I'd generally support doing! It just doesn't make sense in this case. Between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is the big dog.)

---

John Mearsheimer, Noam Chomsky and Jeffrey Sachs... "unthinking"?

People who opposed the Vietnam War, the proxy good-vs-evil war of that time, and the invasion of Iraq, were also smeared as anti-American.

Funny how the memes don't even mention the arguments actual war skeptics use. Looks awfully familiar.

blungld said:

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Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

---

It is nothing that sophisticated at all. This segment of the "Right Wing" is MAGA / America First. "We could buy 47 trillion school security guards with the money we gave to Ukraine." Blah, blah, blah. It is Isolationism, pure and simple. As if the 2nd world war and cold war never happened and we shouldn't learn lessons from them. It is exhibit A to why I personally feel the Republican party is lost.

In today's update of Russia getting stronger. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The rot within Russia's government and military that has been exposed and exacerbated by this war is massive. Anyone pretending that Russia's anywhere close to as strong as people thought before the war or that they have somehow gotten stronger is either on Russian payroll or a useful idiot.

Explosion at a Russian tank factory.

💥 Russia: Electrical transformer sabotage at the Chelyabinsk Tractor Factory led to a massive explosion, engulfing the factory in fire. This plant manufactured engines for Russian tanks and other military equipment. 1,500km East of Moscow. pic.twitter.com/4vtVFd2m89

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) November 26, 2023

Mobik's complaining about low-grade Russian munitions.

Russian serviceman complaining about mortar bombs supplied by the Russian arms industry says they're lacking enough gunpowder to fire to necessary distances. Even Iranian bombs came with correct amounts of gunpowder, he says. pic.twitter.com/iRm21VEvVF

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) November 27, 2023

At full strength, Russia's formations should have 19,000 troops to repel the small UFA force across the Dnipro, and yet hasn't been able to.

something truly amazing is going on here.
from open news about 2 -3 (3-400 troops) companies of the ukr 36th brigade (20% or so of the brigade), with support... are holding out against elements of.... (with at full sized numbers)
810th marine brigade 3000+
404th regiment 2000+… pic.twitter.com/dRiWVx9f3X

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) November 28, 2023

Mobiks complaining about the losses they are taking against this small UFA force.

Krynky, left bank, UPD ‼️

"There are losses, the enemy is smashing us, the command is not responding... "

Map @UAControlMap #Kherson pic.twitter.com/Y0bKsyhXaf

— PStyleOne1 (@PStyle0ne1) November 28, 2023

Forbes recently wrote about Russia's tank woes as well.

Quote:

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"When you need tanks urgently, like Russia, which loses tanks every day, many bad tanks are better than no tanks," Trost told me. But he says that by failing to upgrade the tanks with modern equipment, Russia was "shooting itself in the foot."

"GPS systems may not have been added because the vehicles were made to be as cheap as possible to modernize," says Trost. "But the fact that vehicles don't have this type of system is ridiculous, no matter how cheap the Russians wanted it to be."

Trost says that T-72 crews apparently use consumer GPS systems, or go without. The lack of effective navigation when the vehicle is driving with hatches down might explain why T-72s sometimes end up in rivers or driving into lakes.

The T-72s also suffer from a more basic design flaw: the lack of an effective reverse gear. Maximum reverse speed for T-72 is about 4 kph / 2.5 mph, a slow walking pace. Maybe Russia wants to discourage its tankers from retreating, but if a tank is stuck in a minefield for other situation and needs to get out fast, rather than backing away tank commanders are forced to turn their vehicle around. This makes the tank's thinly-armored rear an obvious target for Ukrainian guns and missiles.

Another well-known vulnerability is the T-72's tendency to detonate violently when hit, killing the crew instantly and often resulting in a spectacular 'turret toss' where the turret is thrown high into the air. This is due to the ammunition storage arrangement in the T-72. Trost says the T-90M has blow-out panels which mitigate the problem but no such measures have been applied to T-72B3.

---

Perhaps the fact that Russia continues to lack a working command and control structure or training to properly use munitions is contributing to their inability to make any progress in Ukraine despite superior numbers and artilllery.

Russian instructor of Storm Z units, currently based near Avdiivka, complains that despite very high density of fire, Russian artillery is unable to provide proper support for assaulting units, resulting in heavy losses for the infantry. According to him, although enough ammo was… pic.twitter.com/M3VhSi8SiA

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) November 25, 2023

As I've shared before, families of service members are complaining more and more about the lack of rotations and conditions at the front lines. This isn't evidence of Russia's increasing strength. The NYT recently ran an article about this as well.

1/ Relatives of mobilised Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine say their men call themselves slave warriors: they are exhausted, depressed, serving with serious diseases or injuries, equipped at their own expense, commanded by drunkards and sent to die in "meat assaults". ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/oB9KNWunJt

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) November 26, 2023

And today's hilarious Russian state media - now they want to take over Portugal before moving on to the US.

Attention, Portugal!

"But Lisbon has never been Russian."
"That's a reason why it should be. The Portuguese would live just as fine as part of the Russian empire."

Russian propagandists discuss "denazifying" Berlin, capturing Lisbon and moving on towards the US. pic.twitter.com/1Uujj2Soz5

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) November 27, 2023

Russia failed miserably in their laughably staged migrant "caravan" at the Finnish border.

1/ The recent bicycle-powered 'migrant invasion' on the Finnish border was reportedly ordered by Russian Presidential Chief of Staff Sergei Kiriyenko and organised by Interior Minister Vladimir Kolokoltsev, but has failed to achieve its apparent objectives. ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/KsqvcujclF

— ChrisO_wiki (@ChrisO_wiki) November 28, 2023

Almost forgot, bonus post about Russian shills.

Twist: This isn't a thirst trap. It's a thread about information warfare. https://t.co/8xbSG0LMaJ

— Brianna Wu (@BriannaWu) November 27, 2023

tequila4kapp said:

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blungld said:

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Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

---

It is nothing that sophisticated at all. This segment of the "Right Wing" is MAGA / America First. "We could buy 47 trillion school security guards with the money we gave to Ukraine." Blah, blah, blah. It is Isolationism, pure and simple. As if the 2nd world war and cold war never happened and we shouldn't learn lessons from them. It is exhibit A to why I personally feel the Republican party is lost.

---

The Republican Party isn't lost, Ukraine lost.

blungld said:

---

I really do not understand the Putin apologists. Why do they work so hard to excuse the Russian aggression? Why do they seem to actually be rooting for Russia to destroy Ukraine and "win" against the US and NATO? They are not just discussing the complexity of the region and all the factors at play, they are actively anti-Ukriane and Pro-Russia. I just can't for the life of me get it. How do you live through the last 30 years and see all the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy and be cheering for them?

Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

Or is this just another step in the march to authoritarianism. Attraction to the "strong men" in Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, North Korea, US, and Russia?

There is no tone to their posts that we are all fellow Americans attempting to do what is best for our national security and our ethical humanitarian obligations, no objective talk of pros and cons and seeking agreement, instead just trumpeting their supposed expertise; adopting contrarian and argumentative positions that reward and excuse Russian aggression; and posting memes, tweets, and quotes from hardline military sites with "cold logical reality of inevitable Russian victory." I don't get the motivation. I don't understand the lens. And I don't understand the lack of empathy for people who are being killed trying to survive and secure the nation they have worked so hard to make independent.

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy. I'm also FOR small-d democracy and AGAINST authoritarianism here in the U.S., because that's where I live, love, work, and VOTE. I'm also FOR small-d democracy in other countries, so I'm against OUR incessant interventionism and OUR overthrow of democratically-elected governments and leaders elsewhere in the world.

I'm also FOR FDR/New Deal capitalism, and the taxation, regulation, Labor, and trade policies that Made America Great in the first place, and created the largest & most prosperous Middle Class in economic history. I'm AGAINST Milton Friedman / Neoliberal / trickle-down / globalist economic & trade policies, because they're unsustainable. They cause the massive income inequality that we experience today.

So of course, I'm AGAINST the forcible export, at gunpoint, of these unsustainable policies to the rest of the world.

Simply put, I'm FOR FDR/JFK-style anti-fascist, peacemaking U.S. foreign policy, and AGAINST the Alan Dulles/ CIA / pro-war / regime change / military-industrial complex / corporate / fascist / NeoCon foreign policy.

I can see with clear eyes all of the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy.

What you & sycasey are apparently not seeing is that the criminality and the anti-democratic actions of the U.S., over the last 70+ years, are 10x more numerous, and 10x worse. Most Americans aren't even aware of the regime change operations that we've done, nor the names of the elected leaders we've deposed or assassinated, nor how many millions of innocent civilians that we've killed, or caused to be killed. All done in OUR name, with OUR tax Dollars, and OUR "manufactured consent," thanks to corporate media.

I was against the pointless Vietnam War since I was 8 years old, watching piles of bodies on the evening news.

I was against our violent / genocidal, anti-democratic interventions with the Contras & right-wing death squads in Central America. I was horrified by our approval & participation in the 1973 coup in Chile (complete with the assassination of democratically-elected Salvador Allende, and the imprisonment, torture, and murder of thousands of dissidents).

And I was 100% against OUR illegal invasion & destruction of Iraq, and our regime change in Libya. We have a nasty habit of influencing other nations, changing the leadership, and leaving authoritarian governments and failed states in our wake. Both Iraq & Libya were thriving, modern, secular states -- with oil -- before we got involved with them. Both nations are now failed states, with widespread death, destruction, and poverty.

What's infuriating -- for me -- is that working individual U.S. taxpayers are paying for more than half of this death, destruction, and the export of failed economic policy, but the benefits of this massive spending go primarily to corporations, defense contractors, shareholders, and oligarchs -- all done in secret, in OUR name, with OUR money.

And all of this "defense" spending makes us LESS SAFE, not more... Every innocent civilian that we kill or imprison creates 2 or more "terrorists." And so it goes...

And somehow, the people who insist on these aggressive, unsustainable, anti-democratic, murderous, destructive, and wrong-headed policies keep rising to the top positions in government, regardless of political party, and are never held to account. While their critics -- who were right all along -- are dismissed, cancelled, demoted, destroyed, or killed.

If you really want to understand why I hold the positions that I do, check these out. I don't expect you to agree -- but at least you might understand:

How the U.S. Gets What it Wants

Overthrow: 100 Years of U.S. Meddling & Regime Change, from Iran to Nicaragua to Hawaii to Cuba

[url=https://youtu.be/B3B5qt6gsxY]The Shock Doctrine [2009] Documentary by Naomi Klein[/url]

What JFK tried to do before his assassination w/Jeffrey Sachs | The Chris Hedges Report

US Marine Corps Officer Scott Ritter Reveals TRUTH About Ukraine

All Lost, Total Failure Achieved | Scott Ritter

JEFFREY SACHS ON RISING: MSM Is HIDING The Truth About Zelesnky & Ukraine

I am against aggressive anti-democratic military interventions. That's why I'm against what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

sycasey said:

---

I am against aggressive anti-democratic military interventions. That's why I'm against what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

---

Would you feel differently if you watched a few youtube videos of a convicted pro-Russian pedophile Tankie? Because cbbass1, who totally isn't pro-Russia, happens to think you should pay attention to Tankies like Scott Ritter.

Here's an article from a few months back on what the disgraced pedophile has been up to.

Quote:

---

Russian propaganda outlets have loved quoting Americans they believe are arguing in Moscow's favour ever since the 2014 invasion of Ukraine, and even more so since the full-scale attack launched in February last year.

While the concept of Western intellectuals kowtowing to Soviet leadership and downplaying their crimes was relatively common during the Cold War, it has gained new momentum since Russian President Vladimir Putin made clear his plans to either break up or occupy the entirety of Ukraine.

Scott Ritter, a former UN weapons inspector in the 1990s, and a Marine Corps analyst during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan a decade prior, is among the cohort of Americans courted by Russian propaganda sources.

Recently, he launched a tour of his new book, "Disarmament in the time of the Perestroika," in Russia, and presented it in cities such as Kazan, Irkutsk and Yekaterinburg. The book, he claims, aims to warn the US public about not seeking out escalations with Russia which could lead to a nuclear attack and insists the Western public has forgotten how difficult it was to achieve these agreements in the first place.

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I am against aggressive anti-democratic military interventions. That's why I'm against what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

---

Would you feel differently if you watched a few youtube videos of a convicted pro-Russian pedophile Tankie? Because cbbass1, who totally isn't pro-Russia, happens to think you should pay attention to Tankies like Scott Ritter.

---

I don't know why anyone thinks that continuing to quote the likes of Ritter is going to help convince me of anything.

cbbass1 said:

---

blungld said:

---

I really do not understand the Putin apologists. Why do they work so hard to excuse the Russian aggression? Why do they seem to actually be rooting for Russia to destroy Ukraine and "win" against the US and NATO? They are not just discussing the complexity of the region and all the factors at play, they are actively anti-Ukriane and Pro-Russia. I just can't for the life of me get it. How do you live through the last 30 years and see all the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy and be cheering for them?

Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

Or is this just another step in the march to authoritarianism. Attraction to the "strong men" in Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, North Korea, US, and Russia?

There is no tone to their posts that we are all fellow Americans attempting to do what is best for our national security and our ethical humanitarian obligations, no objective talk of pros and cons and seeking agreement, instead just trumpeting their supposed expertise; adopting contrarian and argumentative positions that reward and excuse Russian aggression; and posting memes, tweets, and quotes from hardline military sites with "cold logical reality of inevitable Russian victory." I don't get the motivation. I don't understand the lens. And I don't understand the lack of empathy for people who are being killed trying to survive and secure the nation they have worked so hard to make independent.

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy. I'm also FOR small-d democracy and AGAINST authoritarianism here in the U.S., because that's where I live, love, work, and VOTE. I'm also FOR small-d democracy in other countries, so I'm against OUR incessant interventionism and OUR overthrow of democratically-elected governments and leaders elsewhere in the world.

I'm also FOR FDR/New Deal capitalism, and the taxation, regulation, Labor, and trade policies that Made America Great in the first place, and created the largest & most prosperous Middle Class in economic history. I'm AGAINST Milton Friedman / Neoliberal / trickle-down / globalist economic & trade policies, because they're unsustainable. They cause the massive income inequality that we experience today.

So of course, I'm AGAINST the forcible export, at gunpoint, of these unsustainable policies to the rest of the world.

Simply put, I'm FOR FDR/JFK-style anti-fascist, peacemaking U.S. foreign policy, and AGAINST the Alan Dulles/ CIA / pro-war / regime change / military-industrial complex / corporate / fascist / NeoCon foreign policy.

I can see with clear eyes all of the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy.

What you & sycasey are apparently not seeing is that the criminality and the anti-democratic actions of the U.S., over the last 70+ years, are 10x more numerous, and 10x worse. Most Americans aren't even aware of the regime change operations that we've done, nor the names of the elected leaders we've deposed or assassinated, nor how many millions of innocent civilians that we've killed, or caused to be killed. All done in OUR name, with OUR tax Dollars, and OUR "manufactured consent," thanks to corporate media.

I was against the pointless Vietnam War since I was 8 years old, watching piles of bodies on the evening news.

I was against our violent / genocidal, anti-democratic interventions with the Contras & right-wing death squads in Central America. I was horrified by our approval & participation in the 1973 coup in Chile (complete with the assassination of democratically-elected Salvador Allende, and the imprisonment, torture, and murder of thousands of dissidents).

And I was 100% against OUR illegal invasion & destruction of Iraq, and our regime change in Libya. We have a nasty habit of influencing other nations, changing the leadership, and leaving authoritarian governments and failed states in our wake. Both Iraq & Libya were thriving, modern, secular states -- with oil -- before we got involved with them. Both nations are now failed states, with widespread death, destruction, and poverty.

What's infuriating -- for me -- is that working individual U.S. taxpayers are paying for more than half of this death, destruction, and the export of failed economic policy, but the benefits of this massive spending go primarily to corporations, defense contractors, shareholders, and oligarchs -- all done in secret, in OUR name, with OUR money.

And all of this "defense" spending makes us LESS SAFE, not more... Every innocent civilian that we kill or imprison creates 2 or more "terrorists." And so it goes...

And somehow, the people who insist on these aggressive, unsustainable, anti-democratic, murderous, destructive, and wrong-headed policies keep rising to the top positions in government, regardless of political party, and are never held to account. While their critics -- who were right all along -- are dismissed, cancelled, demoted, destroyed, or killed.

If you really want to understand why I hold the positions that I do, check these out. I don't expect you to agree -- but at least you might understand:

How the U.S. Gets What it Wants

Overthrow: 100 Years of U.S. Meddling & Regime Change, from Iran to Nicaragua to Hawaii to Cuba

[url=https://youtu.be/B3B5qt6gsxY]The Shock Doctrine [2009] Documentary by Naomi Klein[/url]

What JFK tried to do before his assassination w/Jeffrey Sachs | The Chris Hedges Report

US Marine Corps Officer Scott Ritter Reveals TRUTH About Ukraine

All Lost, Total Failure Achieved | Scott Ritter

JEFFREY SACHS ON RISING: MSM Is HIDING The Truth About Zelesnky & Ukraine

---

You are lying about Libya. Libya was involved in a catastrophic civil war. The U.S. intervened with bombing to stop Khaddafi's army from reaching Benghazi and committing a massacre. Libya was already wrecked before we stopped that massacre.

I am considered old and most of what you are talking about is before my time. I don't know why you would support Putin's War in Ukraine just because we were stupid in Vietnam and elsewhere last century.

dajo9 said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy. I'm also FOR small-d democracy and AGAINST authoritarianism here in the U.S., because that's where I live, love, work, and VOTE. I'm also FOR small-d democracy in other countries, so I'm against OUR incessant interventionism and OUR overthrow of democratically-elected governments and leaders elsewhere in the world.

I'm also FOR FDR/New Deal capitalism, and the taxation, regulation, Labor, and trade policies that Made America Great in the first place, and created the largest & most prosperous Middle Class in economic history. I'm AGAINST Milton Friedman / Neoliberal / trickle-down / globalist economic & trade policies, because they're unsustainable. They cause the massive income inequality that we experience today.

So of course, I'm AGAINST the forcible export, at gunpoint, of these unsustainable policies to the rest of the world.

Simply put, I'm FOR FDR/JFK-style anti-fascist, peacemaking U.S. foreign policy, and AGAINST the Alan Dulles/ CIA / pro-war / regime change / military-industrial complex / corporate / fascist / NeoCon foreign policy.

I can see with clear eyes all of the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy.

What you & sycasey are apparently not seeing is that the criminality and the anti-democratic actions of the U.S., over the last 70+ years, are 10x more numerous, and 10x worse. Most Americans aren't even aware of the regime change operations that we've done, nor the names of the elected leaders we've deposed or assassinated, nor how many millions of innocent civilians that we've killed, or caused to be killed. All done in OUR name, with OUR tax Dollars, and OUR "manufactured consent," thanks to corporate media.

I was against the pointless Vietnam War since I was 8 years old, watching piles of bodies on the evening news.

I was against our violent / genocidal, anti-democratic interventions with the Contras & right-wing death squads in Central America. I was horrified by our approval & participation in the 1973 coup in Chile (complete with the assassination of democratically-elected Salvador Allende, and the imprisonment, torture, and murder of thousands of dissidents).

And I was 100% against OUR illegal invasion & destruction of Iraq, and our regime change in Libya. We have a nasty habit of influencing other nations, changing the leadership, and leaving authoritarian governments and failed states in our wake. Both Iraq & Libya were thriving, modern, secular states -- with oil -- before we got involved with them. Both nations are now failed states, with widespread death, destruction, and poverty.

What's infuriating -- for me -- is that working individual U.S. taxpayers are paying for more than half of this death, destruction, and the export of failed economic policy, but the benefits of this massive spending go primarily to corporations, defense contractors, shareholders, and oligarchs -- all done in secret, in OUR name, with OUR money.

And all of this "defense" spending makes us LESS SAFE, not more... Every innocent civilian that we kill or imprison creates 2 or more "terrorists." And so it goes...

And somehow, the people who insist on these aggressive, unsustainable, anti-democratic, murderous, destructive, and wrong-headed policies keep rising to the top positions in government, regardless of political party, and are never held to account. While their critics -- who were right all along -- are dismissed, cancelled, demoted, destroyed, or killed.

If you really want to understand why I hold the positions that I do, check these out. I don't expect you to agree -- but at least you might understand:

How the U.S. Gets What it Wants

Overthrow: 100 Years of U.S. Meddling & Regime Change, from Iran to Nicaragua to Hawaii to Cuba

[url=https://youtu.be/B3B5qt6gsxY]The Shock Doctrine [2009] Documentary by Naomi Klein[/url]

What JFK tried to do before his assassination w/Jeffrey Sachs | The Chris Hedges Report

US Marine Corps Officer Scott Ritter Reveals TRUTH About Ukraine

All Lost, Total Failure Achieved | Scott Ritter

JEFFREY SACHS ON RISING: MSM Is HIDING The Truth About Zelesnky & Ukraine

---

You are lying about Libya. Libya was involved in a catastrophic civil war. The U.S. intervened with bombing to stop Khaddafi's army from reaching Benghazi and committing a massacre. Libya was already wrecked before we stopped that massacre.

I am considered old and most of what you are talking about is before my time. I don't know why you would support Putin's War in Ukraine just because we were stupid in Vietnam and elsewhere last century.

---

Libya was regime-changed by NATO, which pumped billions into that project, training and arming jihadis, same as in Syria (where the operation was codenamed Timber Sycamore). That coup was spearheaded by the French neocon Sarkozy government working closely with the US.

They've turned a rich, debt-free functional state with the highest living standards in Africa into a failed state whose gold and currency reserves were stolen, destabilizing the whole region.

No, that was done by Putin, who is dead

cbbass1 said:

---

blungld said:

---

I really do not understand the Putin apologists.

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy.

---

The principles you espouse and the historical descriptions of US policy (which I mostly agree with) do not align with your conclusions and positions on Ukraine as I understand them. Exaggerating to make a point, but to me what you wrote sounds like "I am against American imperialism, and that is why I excuse Russian imperialism."

sycasey said:

---

I am against aggressive anti-democratic military interventions. That's why I'm against what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

---

In that case you should be against the post-Maidan Kiev army rolling its tanks into the Donbass, firing at unarmed crowds and bombing rebel cities.

bearister said:

---

….and speaking of spearheads, karma really got Gaddafi in the end for Lockerbie.

---

...so to speak... Ow!!

Yes, that was NeoCon Hillary's "We came, we saw, he died" moment.

"Soft power" my a--!!

cbbass1 said:

---

bearister said:

---

….and speaking of spearheads, karma really got Gaddafi in the end for Lockerbie.

---

...so to speak... Ow!!

Yes, that was NeoCon Hillary's "We came, we saw, he died" moment.

"Soft power" my a--!!

---

Just not going to acknowledge your errors on Libya, I see

dajo9 said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

blungld said:

---

I really do not understand the Putin apologists. Why do they work so hard to excuse the Russian aggression? Why do they seem to actually be rooting for Russia to destroy Ukraine and "win" against the US and NATO? They are not just discussing the complexity of the region and all the factors at play, they are actively anti-Ukriane and Pro-Russia. I just can't for the life of me get it. How do you live through the last 30 years and see all the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy and be cheering for them?

Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

Or is this just another step in the march to authoritarianism. Attraction to the "strong men" in Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, North Korea, US, and Russia?

There is no tone to their posts that we are all fellow Americans attempting to do what is best for our national security and our ethical humanitarian obligations, no objective talk of pros and cons and seeking agreement, instead just trumpeting their supposed expertise; adopting contrarian and argumentative positions that reward and excuse Russian aggression; and posting memes, tweets, and quotes from hardline military sites with "cold logical reality of inevitable Russian victory." I don't get the motivation. I don't understand the lens. And I don't understand the lack of empathy for people who are being killed trying to survive and secure the nation they have worked so hard to make independent.

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy. I'm also FOR small-d democracy and AGAINST authoritarianism here in the U.S., because that's where I live, love, work, and VOTE. I'm also FOR small-d democracy in other countries, so I'm against OUR incessant interventionism and OUR overthrow of democratically-elected governments and leaders elsewhere in the world.

I'm also FOR FDR/New Deal capitalism, and the taxation, regulation, Labor, and trade policies that Made America Great in the first place, and created the largest & most prosperous Middle Class in economic history. I'm AGAINST Milton Friedman / Neoliberal / trickle-down / globalist economic & trade policies, because they're unsustainable. They cause the massive income inequality that we experience today.

So of course, I'm AGAINST the forcible export, at gunpoint, of these unsustainable policies to the rest of the world.

Simply put, I'm FOR FDR/JFK-style anti-fascist, peacemaking U.S. foreign policy, and AGAINST the Alan Dulles/ CIA / pro-war / regime change / military-industrial complex / corporate / fascist / NeoCon foreign policy.

I can see with clear eyes all of the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy.

What you & sycasey are apparently not seeing is that the criminality and the anti-democratic actions of the U.S., over the last 70+ years, are 10x more numerous, and 10x worse. Most Americans aren't even aware of the regime change operations that we've done, nor the names of the elected leaders we've deposed or assassinated, nor how many millions of innocent civilians that we've killed, or caused to be killed. All done in OUR name, with OUR tax Dollars, and OUR "manufactured consent," thanks to corporate media.

I was against the pointless Vietnam War since I was 8 years old, watching piles of bodies on the evening news.

I was against our violent / genocidal, anti-democratic interventions with the Contras & right-wing death squads in Central America. I was horrified by our approval & participation in the 1973 coup in Chile (complete with the assassination of democratically-elected Salvador Allende, and the imprisonment, torture, and murder of thousands of dissidents).

And I was 100% against OUR illegal invasion & destruction of Iraq, and our regime change in Libya. We have a nasty habit of influencing other nations, changing the leadership, and leaving authoritarian governments and failed states in our wake. Both Iraq & Libya were thriving, modern, secular states -- with oil -- before we got involved with them. Both nations are now failed states, with widespread death, destruction, and poverty.

What's infuriating -- for me -- is that working individual U.S. taxpayers are paying for more than half of this death, destruction, and the export of failed economic policy, but the benefits of this massive spending go primarily to corporations, defense contractors, shareholders, and oligarchs -- all done in secret, in OUR name, with OUR money.

And all of this "defense" spending makes us LESS SAFE, not more... Every innocent civilian that we kill or imprison creates 2 or more "terrorists." And so it goes...

And somehow, the people who insist on these aggressive, unsustainable, anti-democratic, murderous, destructive, and wrong-headed policies keep rising to the top positions in government, regardless of political party, and are never held to account. While their critics -- who were right all along -- are dismissed, cancelled, demoted, destroyed, or killed.

If you really want to understand why I hold the positions that I do, check these out. I don't expect you to agree -- but at least you might understand:

How the U.S. Gets What it Wants

Overthrow: 100 Years of U.S. Meddling & Regime Change, from Iran to Nicaragua to Hawaii to Cuba

[url=https://youtu.be/B3B5qt6gsxY]The Shock Doctrine [2009] Documentary by Naomi Klein[/url]

What JFK tried to do before his assassination w/Jeffrey Sachs | The Chris Hedges Report

US Marine Corps Officer Scott Ritter Reveals TRUTH About Ukraine

All Lost, Total Failure Achieved | Scott Ritter

JEFFREY SACHS ON RISING: MSM Is HIDING The Truth About Zelesnky & Ukraine

---

You are lying about Libya. Libya was involved in a catastrophic civil war. The U.S. intervened with bombing to stop Khaddafi's army from reaching Benghazi and committing a massacre. Libya was already wrecked before we stopped that massacre.

I am considered old and most of what you are talking about is before my time. I don't know why you would support Putin's War in Ukraine just because we were stupid in Vietnam and elsewhere last century.

---

There's division & unrest & civil wars in many nations. Why was U.S. military action needed in Libya's case?

Oh, right -- to keep Libya's oil supply safe for democracy... or for export...

I suppose it's just a coincidence that Khaddafi & Saddam Hussein were preparing to sell their oil in currencies other than USD...

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy. I'm also FOR small-d democracy and AGAINST authoritarianism here in the U.S., because that's where I live, love, work, and VOTE. I'm also FOR small-d democracy in other countries, so I'm against OUR incessant interventionism and OUR overthrow of democratically-elected governments and leaders elsewhere in the world.

I'm also FOR FDR/New Deal capitalism, and the taxation, regulation, Labor, and trade policies that Made America Great in the first place, and created the largest & most prosperous Middle Class in economic history. I'm AGAINST Milton Friedman / Neoliberal / trickle-down / globalist economic & trade policies, because they're unsustainable. They cause the massive income inequality that we experience today.

So of course, I'm AGAINST the forcible export, at gunpoint, of these unsustainable policies to the rest of the world.

Simply put, I'm FOR FDR/JFK-style anti-fascist, peacemaking U.S. foreign policy, and AGAINST the Alan Dulles/ CIA / pro-war / regime change / military-industrial complex / corporate / fascist / NeoCon foreign policy.

I can see with clear eyes all of the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy.

What you & sycasey are apparently not seeing is that the criminality and the anti-democratic actions of the U.S., over the last 70+ years, are 10x more numerous, and 10x worse. Most Americans aren't even aware of the regime change operations that we've done, nor the names of the elected leaders we've deposed or assassinated, nor how many millions of innocent civilians that we've killed, or caused to be killed. All done in OUR name, with OUR tax Dollars, and OUR "manufactured consent," thanks to corporate media.

I was against the pointless Vietnam War since I was 8 years old, watching piles of bodies on the evening news.

I was against our violent / genocidal, anti-democratic interventions with the Contras & right-wing death squads in Central America. I was horrified by our approval & participation in the 1973 coup in Chile (complete with the assassination of democratically-elected Salvador Allende, and the imprisonment, torture, and murder of thousands of dissidents).

And I was 100% against OUR illegal invasion & destruction of Iraq, and our regime change in Libya. We have a nasty habit of influencing other nations, changing the leadership, and leaving authoritarian governments and failed states in our wake. Both Iraq & Libya were thriving, modern, secular states -- with oil -- before we got involved with them. Both nations are now failed states, with widespread death, destruction, and poverty.

What's infuriating -- for me -- is that working individual U.S. taxpayers are paying for more than half of this death, destruction, and the export of failed economic policy, but the benefits of this massive spending go primarily to corporations, defense contractors, shareholders, and oligarchs -- all done in secret, in OUR name, with OUR money.

And all of this "defense" spending makes us LESS SAFE, not more... Every innocent civilian that we kill or imprison creates 2 or more "terrorists." And so it goes...

And somehow, the people who insist on these aggressive, unsustainable, anti-democratic, murderous, destructive, and wrong-headed policies keep rising to the top positions in government, regardless of political party, and are never held to account. While their critics -- who were right all along -- are dismissed, cancelled, demoted, destroyed, or killed.

If you really want to understand why I hold the positions that I do, check these out. I don't expect you to agree -- but at least you might understand:

How the U.S. Gets What it Wants

Overthrow: 100 Years of U.S. Meddling & Regime Change, from Iran to Nicaragua to Hawaii to Cuba

[url=https://youtu.be/B3B5qt6gsxY]The Shock Doctrine [2009] Documentary by Naomi Klein[/url]

What JFK tried to do before his assassination w/Jeffrey Sachs | The Chris Hedges Report

US Marine Corps Officer Scott Ritter Reveals TRUTH About Ukraine

All Lost, Total Failure Achieved | Scott Ritter

JEFFREY SACHS ON RISING: MSM Is HIDING The Truth About Zelesnky & Ukraine

---

You are lying about Libya. Libya was involved in a catastrophic civil war. The U.S. intervened with bombing to stop Khaddafi's army from reaching Benghazi and committing a massacre. Libya was already wrecked before we stopped that massacre.

I am considered old and most of what you are talking about is before my time. I don't know why you would support Putin's War in Ukraine just because we were stupid in Vietnam and elsewhere last century.

---

Libya was regime-changed by NATO, which pumped billions into that project, training and arming jihadis, same as in Syria (where the operation was codenamed Timber Sycamore). That coup was spearheaded by the French neocon Sarkozy government working closely with the US.

They've turned a rich, debt-free functional state with the highest living standards in Africa into a failed state whose gold and currency reserves were stolen, destabilizing the whole region.

---

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act"

C'mon, Call88. You're not supposed to tell the truth about U.S. foreign policy, covert actions, regime change operations, and war crimes.

Julian Assange is still in custody for publishing video of U.S. fighters killing civilians, journalists, and first responders in Iraq. Committing war crimes isn't a problem in the U.S.; but telling the truth about them IS.

cbbass1 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

blungld said:

---

I really do not understand the Putin apologists. Why do they work so hard to excuse the Russian aggression? Why do they seem to actually be rooting for Russia to destroy Ukraine and "win" against the US and NATO? They are not just discussing the complexity of the region and all the factors at play, they are actively anti-Ukriane and Pro-Russia. I just can't for the life of me get it. How do you live through the last 30 years and see all the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy and be cheering for them?

Are they just anti whatever they perceive as the Liberal agenda or talking points? Like we could all be cheering for Putin and they would suddenly be pro-Ukraine?

Are they just showing pure tribalism? The right wing media wants to push back on Ukraine support because that might make Biden look successful, might make Trump's praise of Putin look bad, and because through Trump's "perfect" blackmail of Ukraine and love fest with Putin calling for and getting Russian propaganda assistance in the election, that Russia has emerged as a type of cause celebre or ally?

Or is this just another step in the march to authoritarianism. Attraction to the "strong men" in Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, North Korea, US, and Russia?

There is no tone to their posts that we are all fellow Americans attempting to do what is best for our national security and our ethical humanitarian obligations, no objective talk of pros and cons and seeking agreement, instead just trumpeting their supposed expertise; adopting contrarian and argumentative positions that reward and excuse Russian aggression; and posting memes, tweets, and quotes from hardline military sites with "cold logical reality of inevitable Russian victory." I don't get the motivation. I don't understand the lens. And I don't understand the lack of empathy for people who are being killed trying to survive and secure the nation they have worked so hard to make independent.

---

I'm not "pro-Russia." I'm anti-NeoCon. I'm against the U.S. hegemonists & unipolarists who've hijacked U.S. foreign policy. I'm also FOR small-d democracy and AGAINST authoritarianism here in the U.S., because that's where I live, love, work, and VOTE. I'm also FOR small-d democracy in other countries, so I'm against OUR incessant interventionism and OUR overthrow of democratically-elected governments and leaders elsewhere in the world.

I'm also FOR FDR/New Deal capitalism, and the taxation, regulation, Labor, and trade policies that Made America Great in the first place, and created the largest & most prosperous Middle Class in economic history. I'm AGAINST Milton Friedman / Neoliberal / trickle-down / globalist economic & trade policies, because they're unsustainable. They cause the massive income inequality that we experience today.

So of course, I'm AGAINST the forcible export, at gunpoint, of these unsustainable policies to the rest of the world.

Simply put, I'm FOR FDR/JFK-style anti-fascist, peacemaking U.S. foreign policy, and AGAINST the Alan Dulles/ CIA / pro-war / regime change / military-industrial complex / corporate / fascist / NeoCon foreign policy.

I can see with clear eyes all of the criminality and anti-democratic actions of the Putin oligarchy.

What you & sycasey are apparently not seeing is that the criminality and the anti-democratic actions of the U.S., over the last 70+ years, are 10x more numerous, and 10x worse. Most Americans aren't even aware of the regime change operations that we've done, nor the names of the elected leaders we've deposed or assassinated, nor how many millions of innocent civilians that we've killed, or caused to be killed. All done in OUR name, with OUR tax Dollars, and OUR "manufactured consent," thanks to corporate media.

I was against the pointless Vietnam War since I was 8 years old, watching piles of bodies on the evening news.

I was against our violent / genocidal, anti-democratic interventions with the Contras & right-wing death squads in Central America. I was horrified by our approval & participation in the 1973 coup in Chile (complete with the assassination of democratically-elected Salvador Allende, and the imprisonment, torture, and murder of thousands of dissidents).

And I was 100% against OUR illegal invasion & destruction of Iraq, and our regime change in Libya. We have a nasty habit of influencing other nations, changing the leadership, and leaving authoritarian governments and failed states in our wake. Both Iraq & Libya were thriving, modern, secular states -- with oil -- before we got involved with them. Both nations are now failed states, with widespread death, destruction, and poverty.

What's infuriating -- for me -- is that working individual U.S. taxpayers are paying for more than half of this death, destruction, and the export of failed economic policy, but the benefits of this massive spending go primarily to corporations, defense contractors, shareholders, and oligarchs -- all done in secret, in OUR name, with OUR money.

And all of this "defense" spending makes us LESS SAFE, not more... Every innocent civilian that we kill or imprison creates 2 or more "terrorists." And so it goes...

And somehow, the people who insist on these aggressive, unsustainable, anti-democratic, murderous, destructive, and wrong-headed policies keep rising to the top positions in government, regardless of political party, and are never held to account. While their critics -- who were right all along -- are dismissed, cancelled, demoted, destroyed, or killed.

If you really want to understand why I hold the positions that I do, check these out. I don't expect you to agree -- but at least you might understand:

How the U.S. Gets What it Wants

Overthrow: 100 Years of U.S. Meddling & Regime Change, from Iran to Nicaragua to Hawaii to Cuba

[url=https://youtu.be/B3B5qt6gsxY]The Shock Doctrine [2009] Documentary by Naomi Klein[/url]

What JFK tried to do before his assassination w/Jeffrey Sachs | The Chris Hedges Report

US Marine Corps Officer Scott Ritter Reveals TRUTH About Ukraine

All Lost, Total Failure Achieved | Scott Ritter

JEFFREY SACHS ON RISING: MSM Is HIDING The Truth About Zelesnky & Ukraine

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You are lying about Libya. Libya was involved in a catastrophic civil war. The U.S. intervened with bombing to stop Khaddafi's army from reaching Benghazi and committing a massacre. Libya was already wrecked before we stopped that massacre.

I am considered old and most of what you are talking about is before my time. I don't know why you would support Putin's War in Ukraine just because we were stupid in Vietnam and elsewhere last century.

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There's division & unrest & civil wars in many nations. Why was U.S. military action needed in Libya's case?

Oh, right -- to keep Libya's oil supply safe for democracy... or for export...

I suppose it's just a coincidence that Khaddafi & Saddam Hussein were preparing to sell their oil in currencies other than USD...

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Nobody gives a **** if Hussein / Khaddaffi wanted to stop using USD. They didn't stop because it would have made things harder for them. What a leftist fantasy you live, propelled further by Russian misinformation.

dajo9 said:

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cbbass1 said:

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dajo9 said:

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You are lying about Libya. Libya was involved in a catastrophic civil war. The U.S. intervened with bombing to stop Khaddafi's army from reaching Benghazi and committing a massacre. Libya was already wrecked before we stopped that massacre.

I am considered old and most of what you are talking about is before my time. I don't know why you would support Putin's War in Ukraine just because we were stupid in Vietnam and elsewhere last century.

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There's division & unrest & civil wars in many nations. Why was U.S. military action needed in Libya's case?

Oh, right -- to keep Libya's oil supply safe for democracy... or for export...

I suppose it's just a coincidence that Khaddafi & Saddam Hussein were preparing to sell their oil in currencies other than USD...

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Nobody gives a **** if Hussein / Khaddaffi wanted to stop using USD. They didn't stop because it would have made things harder for them. What a leftist fantasy you live, propelled further by Russian misinformation.

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You know the amusement park rides where you have to be above 4 or 5 ft tall to go in, same thing here. You're not properly equipped to talk about a subject you know absolutely nothing about, related to the African CFA Franc system.

I don't want to waste my time informing or trying to debate a guy who actually believes that Putin is dead.

German deindustrialization post-Nordstream proceeding:

French tire manufacturer Michelin announced it will close two factories and cut 1500 jobs in Germany:
- Expensive energy makes European industries less and less competitive.
- Asian producers, with access to cheap energy, are simply more competitive. https://t.co/BPuu8whqBk pic.twitter.com/jaoMoDhkdh

— Glenn Diesen (@Glenn_Diesen) November 29, 2023

Escape from Zelensky’s recruitment offices.

Increasingly fewer military aged men want to die in a trench for a tyrant. pic.twitter.com/yV5sMWAHix

— Zagonel (@Zagonel85) November 28, 2023