Debt-Ceiling Standoff

19,769 Views | 221 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Eastern Oregon Bear
calbear93
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wifeisafurd said:

Goldener Bar said:

wifeisafurd said:

There doesn't seem to be much to debate on the debt ceiling. It is really dumb idea that famous right wing conservative Bernie Sanders, provided an editorial on Fox News of all places:

Biden must resist Republican debt ceiling demands. Here's ...Fox Newshttps://www.foxnews.com opinion biden-must-resi...
Why does anyone pay attention to Bernie Sanders anymore? He is the definition of all hat, no cattle.

Even more importantly, why does anyone still pay attention to this dog and pony show about the debt ceiling when we all know how it's going to end?
That may be the point, it is all so obvious that adults can't let this happen, that Fox has Bernie Sanders lecturing the politicians.
But are there enough adults?
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
wifeisafurd
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In the past, yes, the adults came to a resolution. Given what is at stake, and how the market reacts, the side that gives some may actually look (operative word given its optics) more responsible. It's easy to come-up with some "phony" spending cuts, and this kabuki has been played before. ttps://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-debt-ceiling-solution-will-be-phony-spending-cuts-175010308.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=ma
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.

dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.




Then the legislative terrorists win. I disagree.

The Federal Court ruled against Lincoln and he ignored them.

Default caused by conflicting Congressional directives is also a crisis. Biden can't abide by the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Biden can't ignore the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Whose fault is that?
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.




Then the legislative terrorists win. I disagree.

The Federal Court ruled against Lincoln and he ignored them.

Default caused by conflicting Congressional directives is also a crisis. Biden can't abide by the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Biden can't ignore the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Whose fault is that?


In my mind, allowing a president like Trump or Biden to ignore or accept other branches of government based on whether they like it or not is even worse than a default. Allowing Trump to ignore the election results or run for three terms or arrest Schiff would be horrific.
DiabloWags
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You guys are making my head hurt.

Im drinking a Pliny the Elder right now. I suggest everyone else do the same, or not.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
BearHunter
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wifeisafurd said:

BearHunter said:

DiabloWags said:

A Monmouth University Poll released today showed 51% of the respondents want to see a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling. The poll was conducted from May 18 - 23 among 981 adults. Margin of error: 5.6 percentage points.

Twice as many in new survey favor clean debt deal (aol.com)



A CNN Poll revealed 60% of respondents want to see debt ceiling raised only if spending is cut.
And 100% of the 60% also would say they want the spending cuts to impact someone else, if only asked. This is all so predictable.
Americans better get used to it. Too bad.
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.




Then the legislative terrorists win. I disagree.

The Federal Court ruled against Lincoln and he ignored them.

Default caused by conflicting Congressional directives is also a crisis. Biden can't abide by the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Biden can't ignore the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Whose fault is that?


In my mind, allowing a president like Trump or Biden to ignore or accept other branches of government based on whether they like it or not is even worse than a default. Allowing Trump to ignore the election results or run for three terms or arrest Schiff would be horrific.
Trump tried to overthrow the government. Possibly he was one compliant VP away from succeeding. I understand your concerns but in my view, looking at constitutional safeguards to protect us from Trump is not going to save us. The only thing that will move this country past Trump fascism is a lot more good people than bad people supporting good actions against Trumpism.
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.




Then the legislative terrorists win. I disagree.

The Federal Court ruled against Lincoln and he ignored them.

Default caused by conflicting Congressional directives is also a crisis. Biden can't abide by the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Biden can't ignore the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Whose fault is that?


In my mind, allowing a president like Trump or Biden to ignore or accept other branches of government based on whether they like it or not is even worse than a default. Allowing Trump to ignore the election results or run for three terms or arrest Schiff would be horrific.
Trump tried to overthrow the government. Possibly he was one compliant VP away from succeeding. I understand your concerns but in my view, looking at constitutional safeguards to protect us from Trump is not going to save us. The only thing that will move this country past Trump fascism is a lot more good people than bad people supporting good actions against Trumpism.


I assume you are serious about this, and thinking that Biden ignoring constitutional separation of powers will protect us from Trump in the future. I cannot disagree more. You wrote that constitutional safeguards won't protect us from Trump. It did exactly that not too long ago. His AG, VP, DOJ, White House Counsel etc stopped Trump from overturning the election results and refused to read that VP can overturn the election not because they wanted Biden. They did it because of respect for the constitution and separation of powers. I can guarantee you that ignoring the constitution and allowing Biden to be an authoritarian ignoring the rule of law because you think it is a way to defeat Trumpism is the type of expedient move that will truly lead to a dictatorship not by people you think are good but by exactly the people you don't want. Those same people who stopped Trump would have no basis to stop him next time if Biden did exactly what they said Trump could not do. And that would be so much worse than a significant market crash. I just sometime shake my head at lack of wisdom that can arise from political passion.
DiabloWags
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calbear93 said:


I just sometime shake my head at lack of wisdom that can arise from political passion.

Not sure why you continue to engage with someone that posted just last week that being a "racist" (spewing antisemitic tropes) is ok, as long as you "punch" up at people like George Soros.

This is the same poster who has repeatedly claimed that the "poor" are doing much better with inflation, because their wages are rising. Yet another headscratcher from someone who claims to have an MBA.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.




Then the legislative terrorists win. I disagree.

The Federal Court ruled against Lincoln and he ignored them.

Default caused by conflicting Congressional directives is also a crisis. Biden can't abide by the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Biden can't ignore the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Whose fault is that?


In my mind, allowing a president like Trump or Biden to ignore or accept other branches of government based on whether they like it or not is even worse than a default. Allowing Trump to ignore the election results or run for three terms or arrest Schiff would be horrific.
Trump tried to overthrow the government. Possibly he was one compliant VP away from succeeding. I understand your concerns but in my view, looking at constitutional safeguards to protect us from Trump is not going to save us. The only thing that will move this country past Trump fascism is a lot more good people than bad people supporting good actions against Trumpism.


I assume you are serious about this, and thinking that Biden ignoring constitutional separation of powers will protect us from Trump in the future. I cannot disagree more. You wrote that constitutional safeguards won't protect us from Trump. It did exactly that not too long ago. His AG, VP, DOJ, White House Counsel etc stopped Trump from overturning the election results and refused to read that VP can overturn the election not because they wanted Biden. They did it because of respect for the constitution and separation of powers. I can guarantee you that ignoring the constitution and allowing Biden to be an authoritarian ignoring the rule of law because you think it is a way to defeat Trumpism is the type of expedient move that will truly lead to a dictatorship not by people you think are good but by exactly the people you don't want. Those same people who stopped Trump would have no basis to stop him next time if Biden did exactly what they said Trump could not do. And that would be so much worse than a significant market crash. I just sometime shake my head at lack of wisdom that can arise from political passion.
I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
sp4149
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My mortgage payment (auto pay) has been the first of the month, the next one due on June 1st.
My mortgage holder notified me today that they have moved my auto pay date to May 30th so that they will get one more payment before the debt ceiling implosion in June.

I have a federal pension and when I refinanced had setup the due date so it would be after I received my federal pension, today the due date was changed to May 30th effective immediately. My comment is not whether this unilateral change is legal or appropriate, No, this just illustrates how serious the biggest bank in the country takes this debt ceiling kerfuffle.

GET YOUR MONEY NOW...
dajo9
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sp4149 said:

My mortgage payment (auto pay) has been the first of the month, the next one due on June 1st.
My mortgage holder notified me today that they have moved my auto pay date to May 30th so that they will get one more payment before the debt ceiling implosion in June.

I have a federal pension and when I refinanced had setup the due date so it would be after I received my federal pension, today the due date was changed to May 30th effective immediately. My comment is not whether this unilateral change is legal or appropriate, No, this just illustrates how serious the biggest bank in the country takes this debt ceiling kerfuffle.

GET YOUR MONEY NOW...



Yeah. I'm closing on a property in July and the buyer is taking out a mortgage.
Goldener Bar
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sp4149 said:

My mortgage payment (auto pay) has been the first of the month, the next one due on June 1st.
My mortgage holder notified me today that they have moved my auto pay date to May 30th so that they will get one more payment before the debt ceiling implosion in June.

I have a federal pension and when I refinanced had setup the due date so it would be after I received my federal pension, today the due date was changed to May 30th effective immediately. My comment is not whether this unilateral change is legal or appropriate, No, this just illustrates how serious the biggest bank in the country takes this debt ceiling kerfuffle.

GET YOUR MONEY NOW...
I know this is going to sound strange - you don't know me and I don't know you, so why would you believe what I'm about to say. So take it for what it's worth and maybe do your own research if you're interested.

Your bank is not only pulling a fast one on you, they may not even understand how government securities work and they also don't understand what the debt ceiling actually is.

Presumably your bank holds some level of government securities as they are the most dependable interest bearing instruments in the world. It's like cash, but cash that pays interest. If for some reason, Congress continues to dick around with not raising the debt ceiling, the Treasury Department has all kinds of tools at their disposal to make good on existing obligations. Rest assured, your bank is going to get their interest payments on June 1 same as they always do because a nation that prints its own currency is, by definition, unable to run out of cash. Any article that tells you otherwise, including from the New York Times, is wrong.

If you are telling people to get money now because you're worried that this stupid political jousting actually means anything to whether you can access your deposits in your bank, you're allowing the government's lies about what our national debt actually is and where the money comes from to service that debt to cause you to do illogical things. Your mortgage and the national debt have nothing to do with one another just as any personal debt you may carry has nothing to do with the national debt because unlike the government, you can't print your own currency to meet your obligations.

There are financial concerns to creating a large sum of money all of a sudden and we've seen that over the past year in the form of inflation, some of which is due to the government creating too much money and some just due to good old corporate greed. But the obligations will most certainly be met and the national debt will not be defaulted upon.
bearister
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Republicans, the party of power over country.

Did GOP Vote To Raise Debt Ceiling 3 Times with No Preconditions During Trump Era? | Snopes.com


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gop-debt-ceiling-trump-presidency/
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“I love Cal deeply. What are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
calbear93
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Goldener Bar said:

sp4149 said:

My mortgage payment (auto pay) has been the first of the month, the next one due on June 1st.
My mortgage holder notified me today that they have moved my auto pay date to May 30th so that they will get one more payment before the debt ceiling implosion in June.

I have a federal pension and when I refinanced had setup the due date so it would be after I received my federal pension, today the due date was changed to May 30th effective immediately. My comment is not whether this unilateral change is legal or appropriate, No, this just illustrates how serious the biggest bank in the country takes this debt ceiling kerfuffle.

GET YOUR MONEY NOW...
I know this is going to sound strange - you don't know me and I don't know you, so why would you believe what I'm about to say. So take it for what it's worth and maybe do your own research if you're interested.

Your bank is not only pulling a fast one on you, they may not even understand how government securities work and they also don't understand what the debt ceiling actually is.

Presumably your bank holds some level of government securities as they are the most dependable interest bearing instruments in the world. It's like cash, but cash that pays interest. If for some reason, Congress continues to dick around with not raising the debt ceiling, the Treasury Department has all kinds of tools at their disposal to make good on existing obligations. Rest assured, your bank is going to get their interest payments on June 1 same as they always do because a nation that prints its own currency is, by definition, unable to run out of cash. Any article that tells you otherwise, including from the New York Times, is wrong.

If you are telling people to get money now because you're worried that this stupid political jousting actually means anything to whether you can access your deposits in your bank, you're allowing the government's lies about what our national debt actually is and where the money comes from to service that debt to cause you to do illogical things. Your mortgage and the national debt have nothing to do with one another just as any personal debt you may carry has nothing to do with the national debt because unlike the government, you can't print your own currency to meet your obligations.

There are financial concerns to creating a large sum of money all of a sudden and we've seen that over the past year in the form of inflation, some of which is due to the government creating too much money and some just due to good old corporate greed. But the obligations will most certainly be met and the national debt will not be defaulted upon.
I don't think that is what people are worried about.

I am worried about the credit rating of our treasuries that will necessitate higher interest rate as we roll over bonds (assuming we can find sufficient buyers) and the crashing of our existing treasuries once interest rate increases. I am worried the additional interest costs.

I am worried about the crashing of the markets due to the enhanced risk created by the market realizing that we are truly run by idiots who can piss on the economy and people getting out of risk overall into safe assets.

I am worried about the conservative actions companies and consumers will take thinking the government will stop payment on certain bills that become due, leading to both companies and consumers not spending as much, which accelerates the slow down even more. Banks will want to be compensation for the new introduction of risks before lending, slowing down any debt financed purchases.

Jobs will be lost, deficits will be enlarged, retirement funds will crash, etc. all because we have deadbeats.

calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Biden has already lost. By engaging in negotiations and showing a willingness to be blackmailed by Republicans, his endeavor here is already a failure - just like Obama before him. Biden should have used the trillion dollar coin to end this situation months ago and made it a non-issue. Now that he has put Republicans in control, it's just a matter of how far Biden retreats to the detriment of the economy.
Using a trillion dollar coin would have been held up in court for so long that it would not have mattered. It would be a question of who has the legal authority to tax and spend, and the Supreme Court would not have resolved this in time.

And Biden not engaging would have been derelict in duty. That would be no better than play chicken with the livelihood of all Americans like the Freedom Caucus is doing. He might as well resign if that would have been his position as the top leader in America. No, he needs to engage and try to deliver for America in the face of economic terrorist in the Republican party and compromise so that enough sane folks in Congress can get to yes.
The law is clear the Treasury can mint platinum coins. No reason for Biden to let an economic crisis take place because the Courts are discussing, or even if they object. No doubt the Courts will want time to rewrite all the legislation on this issue in accordance with their views. They probably already have something written up for them by the Federalist Society. Biden's duty is to the American people that elected him, not to preserve a tainted, corrupted, unanswerable Court.
I don't think you are thinking about an injunction that will be surely be issued when a representative with clear standing seeks protection by the courts.

So not sure what expertise makes you think the law is clear when there is clear debate and even doubt by the White House itself.


I am sure that I am thinking Biden should not allow the Courts to cause economic calamity on this country caused by conflicting direction from Congress. Just as Lincoln did not allow the Courts to prevent his suppression of rebellion.
I don't even know what that means. You mean Biden should override the constitution, ignore both congress and the supreme court and make himself the authoritarian?

I don't even know what you mean by Lincoln not allowing the courts. If you are referring to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, that was pursuant to the authority granted by Congress to the executive branch to execute a law that they duly passed.


I'm referring to Lincoln ignoring the Federal Court that ruled against him and suspending habeus corpus before Congress passed the Suspension of Habeus Corpus Act in 1863.
It was one judge who had issued a writ of Habeus Corpus during the Civil War. CIVIL WAR when congress who had the constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus could not meet because the country was at war and it was too dangerous to convene.

How is that the same as Biden choosing to ignore the Supreme Court over a legislative right that every other president has acknowledged resided exclusively with congress? I cannot even imagine how much damage it would do to our constitution and our rule of law, especially if Trump became president in 2024 and we set that precedent that the president can just ignore congress and the supreme court if they decided it was important.




Then the legislative terrorists win. I disagree.

The Federal Court ruled against Lincoln and he ignored them.

Default caused by conflicting Congressional directives is also a crisis. Biden can't abide by the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Biden can't ignore the debt limit without ignoring Congress. Whose fault is that?


In my mind, allowing a president like Trump or Biden to ignore or accept other branches of government based on whether they like it or not is even worse than a default. Allowing Trump to ignore the election results or run for three terms or arrest Schiff would be horrific.
Trump tried to overthrow the government. Possibly he was one compliant VP away from succeeding. I understand your concerns but in my view, looking at constitutional safeguards to protect us from Trump is not going to save us. The only thing that will move this country past Trump fascism is a lot more good people than bad people supporting good actions against Trumpism.


I assume you are serious about this, and thinking that Biden ignoring constitutional separation of powers will protect us from Trump in the future. I cannot disagree more. You wrote that constitutional safeguards won't protect us from Trump. It did exactly that not too long ago. His AG, VP, DOJ, White House Counsel etc stopped Trump from overturning the election results and refused to read that VP can overturn the election not because they wanted Biden. They did it because of respect for the constitution and separation of powers. I can guarantee you that ignoring the constitution and allowing Biden to be an authoritarian ignoring the rule of law because you think it is a way to defeat Trumpism is the type of expedient move that will truly lead to a dictatorship not by people you think are good but by exactly the people you don't want. Those same people who stopped Trump would have no basis to stop him next time if Biden did exactly what they said Trump could not do. And that would be so much worse than a significant market crash. I just sometime shake my head at lack of wisdom that can arise from political passion.
I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.

Unit2Sucks
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.
dajo9
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Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.


Just mint the coin. It's legal.
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.


Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.
calbear93
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Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.
Get rid of the filibuster for that specific issue. We had seen how the right uses the debt ceiling, with our economy as a hostage. As much as I respect norms in the senate, i would have used the filibuster on that specific issue only. But maybe it again goes back to WVA and AZ.
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.


Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.


Of course you can. You give it to the Fed and they break it down into smaller denominations by order of the Sectetary of the Treasury.
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.


Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.


Of course you can. You give it to the Fed and they break it down into smaller denominations by order of the Sectetary of the Treasury.
Has the Fed stated that it would accept it? I doubt it. They would not want to get in the middle of it, and they may not want the inflationary impact. If the Fed said they would accept the coin, fine but I would be shocked if the Fed has come out saying they would accept a trillion dollar coin from the treasury to fund the treasury.
Unit2Sucks
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calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.
Get rid of the filibuster for that specific issue. We had seen how the right uses the debt ceiling, with our economy as a hostage. As much as I respect norms in the senate, i would have used the filibuster on that specific issue only. But maybe it again goes back to WVA and AZ.
I would eliminate the filibuster for voting rights too but let's be honest about what the filibuster is for at this point - it's to guarantee our government is dysfunctional. In some sense it prevents the sort of self-destruction that we could be subject to if either side had too much power. It also gives both sides plausible deniability for failing to accomplish their wild campaign promises. Like all of the GOPers pretending they will support incredibly unpopular anti-choice legislation when they know that the filibuster will save them from the risk that it would pass.

In hindsight, when the democrats approved 3 condition-free debt ceiling increases under Trump (2017, 2018, 2019), they should have required the elimination of the debt ceiling forever. Trump would have gone for it.
dajo9
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.


Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.


Of course you can. You give it to the Fed and they break it down into smaller denominations by order of the Sectetary of the Treasury.
Has the Fed stated that it would accept it? I doubt it. They would not want to get in the middle of it, and they may not want the inflationary impact. If the Fed said they would accept the coin, fine but I would be shocked if the Fed has come out saying they would accept a trillion dollar coin from the treasury to fund the treasury.


Based on information I've heard listening to Bloomberg's Odd Lots broadcast, in a dispute like this legally the Fed must defer to the Treasury Secretary.

The Fed is the Treasury's bank. It can not turn down currency from the Treasury.
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:


I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.


Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.


Of course you can. You give it to the Fed and they break it down into smaller denominations by order of the Sectetary of the Treasury.
Has the Fed stated that it would accept it? I doubt it. They would not want to get in the middle of it, and they may not want the inflationary impact. If the Fed said they would accept the coin, fine but I would be shocked if the Fed has come out saying they would accept a trillion dollar coin from the treasury to fund the treasury.


Based on information I've heard listening to Bloomberg's Odd Lots broadcast, in a dispute like this legally the Fed must defer to the Treasury Secretary.

The Fed is the Treasury's bank. It can not turn down currency from the Treasury.
I don't think that's right. The Fed has no obligation to accept the trillion dollar coin. And I suspect they won't. But even the gimmicky attempt would do the same thing by destroying our credibility and the economy. Won't really be the solution.
AunBear89
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bearister said:

Republicans, the party of power over country.

Did GOP Vote To Raise Debt Ceiling 3 Times with No Preconditions During Trump Era? | Snopes.com


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gop-debt-ceiling-trump-presidency/


Today's Republican politicians and voters: LIARS, HYPOCRITES, AND MORONS.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
dajo9
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Here is a good article explaining why the coin is the right legal mechanism to use to avoid debt ceiling calamity and also why it is not inflationary.
https://www.pwnallthethings.com/p/mint-the-coin

The Fed is the fiscal agent in this situation. They aren't calling the shots (that's not covered in the article above but that is the case).

Also, when this is in Court and Biden is accused of breaking the law, I look forward to Republicans arguing in court that Biden had legal avenues, such as minting the coin.

I also look forward to the demise of the generation of surrender Democrats that Biden represents.
DiabloWags
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:




Based on information I've heard listening to Bloomberg's Odd Lots broadcast, in a dispute like this legally the Fed must defer to the Treasury Secretary.

The Fed is the Treasury's bank. It can not turn down currency from the Treasury.
I don't think that's right. The Fed has no obligation to accept the trillion dollar coin. And I suspect they won't. But even the gimmicky attempt would do the same thing by destroying our credibility and the economy. Won't really be the solution.

Actually, the Second Circuit Court determined in 2019 that "Congress specified the fiscal agency relationship for the purpose of putting the (Federal Reserve Banks) under the direction of the Treasury Department in certain limited circumstances"

By claiming that the coin has not been issued yet, then refusing to accept it, the Federal Reserve is also interfering with the issuance of a coin. They are not allowed to do so given that they are an agent of the Treasury Dept.

Janet Yellen has told the WSJ that the Fed wouldn't back the "Mint the Coin" plan because it appears to be a "gimmick". She said that the "Fed is not required to accept it, there's no requirement on the part of the Fed. It's up to them what to do."

Something tells me that Miss Yellen is playing "dumb" on this and doing some political posturing for the Administration.

Register to read | Financial Times (ft.com)


"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
calbear93
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dajo9 said:

Here is a good article explaining why the coin is the right legal mechanism to use to avoid debt ceiling calamity and also why it is not inflationary.
https://www.pwnallthethings.com/p/mint-the-coin

The Fed is the fiscal agent in this situation. They aren't calling the shots (that's not covered in the article above but that is the case).

Also, when this is in Court and Biden is accused of breaking the law, I look forward to Republicans arguing in court that Biden had legal avenues, such as minting the coin.

I also look forward to the demise of the generation of surrender Democrats that Biden represents.


Interesting. Can't say I am anywhere an expert in this so you may be right. But you can be right and still be wrong in the sense that if we have to resort to a mint trillion coin, our credibility and creditworthiness are shot, and we and our economy have lost anyway. Just a bunch of stupid people holding up our economy when people who support those idiots are most likely not paying much in the form of taxes anyway (what the hell are these rural folks complaining about), and we are paying way more than our share.
Goldener Bar
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calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.
Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.
Of course you can. You give it to the Fed and they break it down into smaller denominations by order of the Sectetary of the Treasury.
Has the Fed stated that it would accept it? I doubt it.
So, with nothing to back it up, you just doubt that this instrument that a law was created for would be accepted because you just don't like the idea.

The reason Yellen doesn't want to do this is because issuing more debt is preferable to printing money into existence. For one thing, it lays bare how much of our economy is just pure bull**** and depriving Congress of the ability to moan and whine about the national debt and pretend they care about fiscal responsibility is not something anybody wants to happen. For another, it would undoubtedly have inflationary consequences that she doesn't want. But the one thing you can be certain of is that if this performative standoff continues and the choice is to create money out of the ether or not pay obligations, they're gonna create money.

The 14th Amendment thing is a red herring and is not gonna happen. The 14th Amendment just reinforces that the United States will always meet their debt obligations.
calbear93
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Goldener Bar said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

dajo9 said:

I think you overlook one key point. Abiding by the debt limit means Biden has to ignore Congress (become an authoritarian, in your words) anyway. Biden should ignore Congress in the way that is best for the country, since current law requires he ignore Congress in one way or the other.
Well, we will see if the court agree. I am not sure the 14th amendment argument will work but maybe the argument can be that the tax and spend power resides solely with Congress and by imposing a debt ceiling as well as a budget and spending bill, the congress is delegating to the president the legislative power to decide what we will prioritize in our spending - a decision that resides solely in the constitution with congress.

Still don't understand why the Democrats did not repeal the debt ceiling when they had both houses in congress and the white house. Maybe the honorable senators from WVA and AZ? Not sure.


They didn't have a filibuster proof majority and out of "respect" for institutions we allow political terrorists to damage our country. We have the 2024 presumptive GOP presidential nominee publicly cheerleading for a default because he thinks it helps his election chances and, obviously, he's never shown one iota of concern for our country or people.

It's time for Biden to announce that we will continue to faithfully execute our laws, including recent appropriations, and that we will continue to pay our debts, both as the constitution demands. If the GOP decides they really want to cause an economic meltdown, they can make it even more clear to the American people as to their motivations, rather than pretending that they are doing this out of some make believe fiscal prudence.
Just mint the coin. It's legal.
You can mint the coin but you can't spend it.
Of course you can. You give it to the Fed and they break it down into smaller denominations by order of the Sectetary of the Treasury.
Has the Fed stated that it would accept it? I doubt it.
So, with nothing to back it up, you just doubt that this instrument that a law was created for would be accepted because you just don't like the idea..


I have nothing to back it up?

Did you hear Powell's answer when this question was brought up during a Congressional hearing? Did you just post this in an accusatory manner without even hearing it directly from Powell? Or did you miss the part where he said the fed will not pull a rabbit out of a hat to solve the debt ceiling crisis and that accepting the coin would be pulling a rabbit out of a hat? And did Yellen just say that she didn't want to as you suggest? OR did she actually say the fed doesn't have to accept it and probably will not (hmmm. I wonder if she could possibly have had more conversation with Powell than you have). Despite this, you are ignoring statements from the treasury secretary and the Fed chairman and saying I have no basis for MY position? This is all new and conjecture but I suspect my view you dismiss in a snarky fashion has more basis on statements from the actual players than your position.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?526415-1/federal-reserve-chair-testifies-monetary-policy-report

https://thehill.com/business/3890199-five-takeaways-from-powells-house-testimony/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/janet-yellen-dismisses-minting-1-trillion-coin-to-avoid-default-11674417541
 
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