The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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cbbass1
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In reply to Zippergate • 2:43p, 2/25/24
Zippergate said:
No, actually it is because they don't want them. No country in the the M.E. wants them.
No, it's not because they're joining Israel in the dehumanization of Palestinians.

Why Egypt doesn't want Palestinians in Gaza to cross the border

Egyptians fear undermining a future Palestinian state

For Egypt, the crisis in Gaza comes as its authoritarian president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, is facing voters in an election that concludes Tuesday. Although Sisi faces no credible opponent and is all but certain to win, public opinion still matters.

Despite an official ban on public protests, Egyptians have turned out in numbers to rally in support of Palestinians in Gaza. Sisi himself said in October that he rejects Palestinians being displaced, saying it could forever undermine the push for Palestinian statehood. "The Palestinian cause is the mother of all causes and has a significant impact on security and stability," he said.

It's a position popular with many Egyptians and others in the Arab world, who are sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians in Israel.

Egypt, which already hosts 9 million refugees, according to U.N. figures, has repeatedly insisted an exodus of besieged Palestinians will not be allowed. Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry has called the prospect "totally unacceptable."

Shoukry, speaking last week to the Washington, D.C.-based Atlantic Council, noted the "unprecedented level of human suffering" in Gaza. He said transferring Gazans to Egyptian territory would be a violation of international humanitarian law and "an effort to liquidate the Palestinian cause."

Imad Harb, director of research and analysis at the Arab Center Washington DC, says Sisi's standing with ordinary Egyptians "has actually been bolstered by the position that he has taken in the war."



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Lets Go Brandon 8
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12:25a, 2/27/24




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to Lets Go Brandon 8 • 6:48a, 2/27/24
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
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oski003
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In reply to Eastern Oregon Bear • 7:09a, 2/27/24
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.


Have you heard anything about the past of the two men who shot up the Kansas City parade? It is hard to even find a picture of them.
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Cal88
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8:00a, 2/27/24
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:11a, 2/27/24
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
Zippergate said:
No, actually it is because they don't want them. No country in the the M.E. wants them.

First, since 1948, none of the millions of Palestinians who were forcibly expelled from their country were ever allowed back.

Second, Palestinians don't want to leave their country, the only reason some would is that Israel is literally genociding them, they have dropped 60lb of TNT per man, woman or child in Gaza so far and have cut off their food and water.

Third, your statement implies that Palestinians are some kind of undesirable people, and that is the reason they are not wanted by other countries. Norman Finkelstein's answer:

You need to get your facts straight. It is objectively false that "millions" of Palestinians were expelled from their homes. Even if you adopt the numbers presented by the Palestinians, it is less than one million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_estimates_of_the_1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

Millions, since 1948. 1.5 million in Gaza alone this year.

And in 1948, 900,000 Palestinians (the great majority of that population at the time) were forcibly dispossessed and displaced from their land and villages in 1948. out of a total Palestinian population of 1.3 millions, the aftermath of a large, well-planned terror campaign where thousands of Palestinian villagers were exterminated:



Quote:
Quote:
Coincidentally, that number is roughly the same as the Jews who were expelled from Arab countries (many of whom found safety in Israel). Do you feel equal sympathy for those Jewish refugees and are you demanding that they be compensated by the Arab countries? I haven't seen that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=In%20the%2020th%20century%2C%20approximately,countries%20throughout%20Africa%20and%20Asia.

Jews have lived in harmony with Muslims and Christians in the Arab world for millennia, until the creation of Israel. That's why far fewer Arab Jews emigrated to the Americas in the 18th and 19th centuries than European Ashkenazis, who were actively persecuted in eastern and central Europe for centuries.

What you don't know and you should learn about Arab Jews in the 1950s-60s is that Israel actively targeted Jewish Arab communities, going as far as bombing the large Jewish community in Iraq in false flag operations:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-shocking-truth-behind-the-baghdad-bombings-of-1950-and-1951/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/avi-shlaim-proof-israel-zionist-involvement-iraq-jews-attacks
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-jews-attacks-zionist-role-confirmed-operative-police-report

Quote:
Shlaim's autobiography Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew, published earlier this month, details his childhood as an Iraqi Jew and subsequent exile to Israel.

It also includes research about a number of bombings in Iraq which prompted a mass exodus of Jews from the country between 1950 and 1951, most of whom, like he and his family, ended up in Israel.
On Sunday, Shlaim told Middle East Eye that he had uncovered "incontrovertible evidence of Zionist underground involvement in the bombs".

As part of the evidence, the historian cited an extensive interview he carried out with Yaakov Karkoukli, a former member of the Zionist underground in Baghdad in the 1950s.

The bombings at the time included attacks on a coffee shop, a car dealership and a synagogue, among other attacks on Jewish communities and businesses.

Karkoukli said that Basri carried out three of those attacks on Jewish sites upon the orders of Meir Max Bineth, an Israeli intelligence officer who supplied Basri with grenades and TNT explosives.

There is also plenty of evidence of Israel bombing western targets in countries like Egypt in order to poison the relations between those countries and the West:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair


Quote:
You further discredit yourself with the "genociding them" claim. If the Israeli's wanted to commit genocide, there would be no Palestinians left. Full stop.

You loose all credibility (to the extent any remains) when you make these types of hyperbolic one-sided claims.

If Israel exterminated Palestinians by the hundreds of thousands instead of tens of thousands, is would cease to exist, because even the most brainwashed Fox-watching Christian zionists would start turning against them. Israel cannot survive without continued large military and financial aid from the US as well as its support among key western countries, which has been maintained through MSM propaganda.

Quote:
And you have pretty much answered your own question in the final paragraph. The surrounding Arab countries do in fact view the Palestinians as undesirable people. I take no pleasure in saying that but its true.
This is why I haven't put much effort into arguing with people like you on this subject, you basically believe that Palestinians are an inferior people, intrinsically prone to violence for no reason. This opinion is completely detached from the history of that region and nearly a century of violence and ethnic cleansing against the original inhabitants of Palestine. It is shaped by decades of propaganda, so it is useless for me to try to argue against that here.

The first bolded statement might be the most absurd claim you've made - and that's saying a lot. You seem to have no historical context as to how Islam spread throughout the middle east (hint: not peacefully) and/or of history prior to 1948 (hint: Arabs were not living in harmony with Christians and Jews). Remind me - what is the Dome of the Rock built on top of? Did Jews harmoniously consent to that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence#:~:text=During%20approximately%20the%20first%201%2C000,de%20facto%20propagation%20of%20Islam.

The second bolded statement is an admission that there is not a genocide being perpetrated. Yet you still speciously make that claim.

And I don't believe the Palestinians are inferior people. But their political leaders and objectively toxic culture of antisemitism and violence sucks. It is no different than the Germans/Japanese in the 1930s and 1940s.00 Their lives will not improve until they reform. It is funny you decry "fox watching christians" yet have nothing to say about the violent strain of Islam that dominates much of Palestinian government/culture.

Hamas has its roots in the muslim brotherhood, a group that seeks to impose sharia law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism_in_the_Gaza_Strip

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html#:~:text=HAMAS%20formed%20in%20late%201987,structure%20inside%20the%20Palestinian%20territories.



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CaliforniaEternal
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12:32p, 2/27/24
How dare they take away the right to hijack planes!!!

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sycasey
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In reply to Eastern Oregon Bear • 12:39p, 2/27/24
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
I'm gonna say that maybe it's good to not encourage people to commit suicide.
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 12:50p, 2/27/24
sycasey said:
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
I'm gonna say that maybe it's good to not encourage people to commit suicide.

8,000 vets commit suicide every year. Maybe it's good to stop sending young soldiers to fight endless occupation wars halfway around the world.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:10p, 2/27/24
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
I'm gonna say that maybe it's good to not encourage people to commit suicide.

8,000 vets commit suicide every year. Maybe it's good to not stop sending young soldiers to fight endless occupation wars halfway around the world.
Totally agree, Putin should cut that out.
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movielover
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:11p, 2/27/24
And not fill Veterans Hospitals w illegal immigrants, including violent cartel members.

FTR, in the lower ranks we recruit some young men w modest issues. I helped a young man who had trouble keeping entry level jobs. Pot use and behavioral issues were evident. He was in a 'mortuary affairs' unit and was at the Pentagon after 9/11. Good guy.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 1:27p, 2/27/24
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
I'm gonna say that maybe it's good to not encourage people to commit suicide.

8,000 vets commit suicide every year. Maybe it's good to not stop sending young soldiers to fight endless occupation wars halfway around the world.
Totally agree, Putin should cut that out.
Well played. :-)
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CaliforniaEternal
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1:58p, 2/27/24
Meanwhile, in Berkeley, the mob attacks an event while shouting for violence against Jews. Instead of arresting the vandalizes and trespassers, UC police cowers to the mob. I doubt anyone was arrested for the damage either knowing the campus's unwillingness to hold anyone accountable for damages.

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movielover
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 3:05p, 2/27/24
Same thing happens to Conservative students across our nation on many campuses.
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 3:18p, 2/27/24
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
I'm gonna say that maybe it's good to not encourage people to commit suicide.

8,000 vets commit suicide every year. Maybe it's good to not stop sending young soldiers to fight endless occupation wars halfway around the world.
Totally agree, Putin should cut that out.

Russia is waging war on its borders, not halfway around the world.

The USSR did invade Afghanistan, and their vets did face the same issues US vets faced returning from mideast Endless Wars, but the Donbas is not Afghanistan.
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CaliforniaEternal
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In reply to movielover • 3:59p, 2/27/24
Yep, left wingers/islamists know they can disrupt events of any speaker they find objectionable with no consequences and campuses don't care unless it's a rare situation when a right wing group causes the disruption and then they get all holy about free speech, threat to democracy, etc.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 4:01p, 2/27/24
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Genocide Joe said:




But of course the Washington Post did what the Washington Post always does when attention is brought to how ****ty the U.S. Government's wars are.

Yeah, you would never bring up someone's past when bemoaning current events.
I'm gonna say that maybe it's good to not encourage people to commit suicide.

8,000 vets commit suicide every year. Maybe it's good to not stop sending young soldiers to fight endless occupation wars halfway around the world.
Totally agree, Putin should cut that out.

Russia is waging war on its borders, not halfway around the world.

The USSR did invade Afghanistan, and their vets did face the same issues US vets faced returning from mideast Endless Wars, but the Donbas is not Afghanistan.
The Ukraine war might not be Afghanistan yet, but it's getting there.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to sycasey • 4:21p, 2/27/24
sycasey said:

The Ukraine war might not be Afghanistan yet, but it's getting there.
Ukraine has been a much bigger disaster for Russia. Less than 50k Soviet casualties in Afghanistan over a 10-year period, with ~15k KIA. Even the most optimistic Russian propagandists would concede they've lost more in the first 2 years in Ukraine.

And that's without getting into the economic issues. Russia has reportedly spent $200B to fight this war.

Of course, someone will show up to claim that not a single Russian has been killed in combat in Ukraine and that 400 billion Ukrainians have died. Russia is stronger than ever as long as you ignore the past.
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Cal88
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 4:41p, 2/27/24
Unit2Sucks said:
sycasey said:

The Ukraine war might not be Afghanistan yet, but it's getting there.
Ukraine has been a much bigger disaster for Russia. Less than 50k Soviet casualties in Afghanistan over a 10-year period, with ~15k KIA. Even the most optimistic Russian propagandists would concede they've lost more in the first 2 years in Ukraine. Of course, someone will show up to claim that not a single Russian has been killed in combat in Ukraine and that 400 billion Ukrainians have died.

The war in Ukraine is not a "disaster for Russia", that is a ludicrous U2Sesque fantasy, it's going very well for them.

They're going to end up dislodging NATO from Ukraine, and taking the Kiev regime nationalists out of the Russian-speaking third of Ukraine, which they will annex to Russia. It's a win for Russia, they're beating NATO in Ukraine without even shifting into high gear or disrupting their economy.

That's why the war has been popular in Russia, unlike Afghanistan was:
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movielover
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 4:49p, 2/27/24
Exaggerate much? Last guesstimate I've seen is 500K KIA Ukranians, 100K amputees, and 75K-100K Russian deaths, a disproportionate number likely less-preferred ethnic groups and ex-cons volunteers.

NATO is a vanquished paper tiger, Russia owns the air, and the West can't even supply manpower or ammunition. This is an immoral slaughter.

Russian debt $0?
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Lets Go Brandon 8
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 7:12p, 2/27/24
CaliforniaEternal said:
Meanwhile, in Berkeley, the mob attacks an event while shouting for violence against Jews. Instead of arresting the vandalizes and trespassers, UC police cowers to the mob. I doubt anyone was arrested for the damage either knowing the campus's unwillingness to hold anyone accountable for damages.

Their suffering seems so trivial compared with the lives of the 28,000 Palestinians killed in your war.
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Big C
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In reply to movielover • 7:23p, 2/27/24
movielover said:
Exaggerate much? Last guesstimate I've seen is 500K KIA Ukranians, 100K amputees, and 75K-100K Russian deaths, a disproportionate number likely less-preferred ethnic groups and ex-cons volunteers.

NATO is a vanquished paper tiger, Russia owns the air, and the West can't even supply manpower or ammunition. This is an immoral slaughter.

Russian debt $0?

Sure, he was exaggerating for effect, but it seems like you are anti-NATO and pro-Russia. Is that true? If so, why?
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CaliforniaEternal
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8:21p, 2/27/24
Why is there a weirdo extremist troll who keeps creating new accounts to post on this board?
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sycasey
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 8:25p, 2/27/24
CaliforniaEternal said:
Why is there a weirdo extremist troll who keeps creating new accounts to post on this board?

This has been Yogi's thing for a few years now. The funny thing is that he used to supposedly be a leftist Bernie supporter and now he mostly just posts right-wing stuff (except on Israel).
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CaliforniaEternal
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In reply to sycasey • 9:00p, 2/27/24
sycasey said:
CaliforniaEternal said:
Why is there a weirdo extremist troll who keeps creating new accounts to post on this board?

This has been Yogi's thing for a few years now. The funny thing is that he used to supposedly be a leftist Bernie supporter and now he mostly just posts right-wing stuff (except on Israel).


Thanks, that is one sad individual who resorts to creating spam accounts daily on a small anonymous message board. I will have to bring this up with my psychiatrist friends and see if this pattern is contained in DSM-5-TR or if a new section on internet behavior is needed.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 7:14a, 2/29/24
CaliforniaEternal said:
Yep, left wingers/islamists know they can disrupt events of any speaker they find objectionable with no consequences and campuses don't care unless it's a rare situation when a right wing group causes the disruption and then they get all holy about free speech, threat to democracy, etc.
There are a lot of radicalized weirdos out there that don't believe in democracy, only in their extreme purity tests and fringe beliefs. Does it make sense to self-immolate in hopes that a non-participating country will end a conflict that neither side is keen on ending? Of course not, but they've been radicalized to believe this stuff. Not so ionically, the radicalization mirrors Islamic extremist radicalization, and has already led to more violence.

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Cal88
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9:39a, 2/29/24
Call it a "fringe belief", but this type of wanton massacre doesn't pass my "extreme purity test":




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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 6:49p, 2/29/24
Cal88 said:
Call it a "fringe belief", but this type of wanton massacre doesn't pass my "extreme purity test":





The vast majority of the deaths were caused when the Palestinians trampled each other trying to get the food before Hamas stole it. The IDF did not fire on the crowd - if they had the video would show people running away (not toward the food).

There was a SEPERATE incident where 10 Palestinians approached a military checkpoint and were shot. But of course Hamas lies and people like you repeat it because you have no regard for the truth.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dozens-of-gazans-said-killed-in-stampede-for-aid-idf-opens-fire-blamed-for-deaths/
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Lets Go Brandon 8
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In reply to BearGoggles • 12:01a, 3/1/24
BearGoggles said:
The vast majority of the deaths were caused when the Palestinians trampled each other trying to get the food before Hamas stole it. The IDF did not fire on the crowd - if they had the video would show people running away (not toward the food).

There was a SEPERATE incident where 10 Palestinians approached a military checkpoint and were shot. But of course Hamas lies and people like you repeat it because you have no regard for the truth.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dozens-of-gazans-said-killed-in-stampede-for-aid-idf-opens-fire-blamed-for-deaths/
LOL at anyone using the Times of Israel as evidence against Israel committing war crimes.


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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 5:44a, 3/1/24
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
Call it a "fringe belief", but this type of wanton massacre doesn't pass my "extreme purity test":

The vast majority of the deaths were caused when the Palestinians trampled each other trying to get the food before Hamas stole it. The IDF did not fire on the crowd - if they had the video would show people running away (not toward the food).

There was a SEPERATE incident where 10 Palestinians approached a military checkpoint and were shot. But of course Hamas lies and people like you repeat it because you have no regard for the truth.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dozens-of-gazans-said-killed-in-stampede-for-aid-idf-opens-fire-blamed-for-deaths/

Yes the 100+ Gazans died because they trampled each other, and the tank shells and machine gun fire aimed at them in that process was completely inconsequential.
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AunBear89
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:16a, 3/1/24
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
Call it a "fringe belief", but this type of wanton massacre doesn't pass my "extreme purity test":

The vast majority of the deaths were caused when the Palestinians trampled each other trying to get the food before Hamas stole it. The IDF did not fire on the crowd - if they had the video would show people running away (not toward the food).

There was a SEPERATE incident where 10 Palestinians approached a military checkpoint and were shot. But of course Hamas lies and people like you repeat it because you have no regard for the truth.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dozens-of-gazans-said-killed-in-stampede-for-aid-idf-opens-fire-blamed-for-deaths/

Yes the 100+ Gazans died because they trampled each other, and the tank shells and machine gun fire aimed at them in that process was completely inconsequential.


I think it's pretty clear the argument is the IDF was shooting at Palestinians who were already dead, so….
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
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movielover
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In reply to Big C • 12:35p, 3/1/24
No.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:42p, 3/1/24
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:
Call it a "fringe belief", but this type of wanton massacre doesn't pass my "extreme purity test":

The vast majority of the deaths were caused when the Palestinians trampled each other trying to get the food before Hamas stole it. The IDF did not fire on the crowd - if they had the video would show people running away (not toward the food).

There was a SEPERATE incident where 10 Palestinians approached a military checkpoint and were shot. But of course Hamas lies and people like you repeat it because you have no regard for the truth.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dozens-of-gazans-said-killed-in-stampede-for-aid-idf-opens-fire-blamed-for-deaths/

Yes the 100+ Gazans died because they trampled each other, and the tank shells and machine gun fire aimed at them in that process was completely inconsequential.
There are now multiple videos on the internet. Not a single one shows Israel firing on Gazans. All of the videos show the Gazans running toward the food trucks (not away from bullets). The videos show Gazans being run over by the aid trucks.

If I'm mistaken, feel free to post the video of Israeli's firing at the food convoy.

Questions for you:

1.Why are the Gazans trying to grab food off the trucks before they reach the Hamas controlled areas?
2. Is there a reason the overall population would not trust Hamas to share the food?
3. Why hasn't Hamas released the hostages - or agreed to do so - which would produce a cease fire?
4. Why hasn't Hamas surrendered to end the suffering?
5. Why does Hamas spend all of its resources building tunnels and buying weapons, rather than feeding its own people?
6. It is fine that your suspicious of the Israeli/IDF narrative. Why aren't you equally suspicious of Hamas' claims - particularly when there is a proven track record of Hamas mischaracterizing events (e.g., The wildly exaggerated claims of death when a hospital was "bombed" which proved to be Palestinian groups bombing their own hospital).

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Lets Go Brandon 8
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12:50p, 3/1/24



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In reply to bearister • 1:17p, 3/1/24
bearister said:
Thomas Friedman: A Biden Doctrine for the Middle East is forming. And it's big Twin Cities


https://www.twincities.com/2024/02/01/thomas-friedman-a-biden-doctrine-for-the-middle-east-is-forming-and-its-big/

Your thoughts?
So much for the Biden Doctrine


Full text:
https://inconvenientnews.wordpress.com/2024/02/28/thomas-l-friedman-opinion-israel-is-losing-its-greatest-asset-acceptance-the-new-york-times/

https://media.tenor.com/uARaKFpSkaMAAAAC/anger-management-jack-nicholson.gif
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