The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 12:26p, 5/2/24
sycasey said:
calbear93 said:
sycasey said:
ducky23 said:
Big C said:
dajo9 said:
sycasey said:
The history of these Columbia protests has been a long series of overreactions, one after another. In that I include the school, the mayor, the police, the protesters themselves, and the media.
This is true.

I hadn't heard anything in the news about protests at Cal so I googled it and it seems the protesters are there but the admin is basically letting them have their free speech but not really responding. No confrontation means no media. The hotheads on both sides want confrontation so I applaud the Cal admin. I'm sure eventually a hothead on one side or the other will force the issue but for now free speech is happening and nobody seems to be overreacting (for now).

Exactly. One pundit recently cited "Berkeley" as one of the schools doing it right (by not escalating).

The protests are largely well-intentioned. if perhaps a bit ignorant on the historical perspective. Listen to what they have to say and let them have their moment. Draw the line at antisemitism, vandalism and disruption of campus functions. Must show student ID after sundown.


Is anyone else pleasantly surprised (or even shocked really) that every other school seems to be in the news (for the wrong reasons) except us? This is usually the time we **** the bed.

But look at us. Admin is handling this correctly and more importantly our student protestors are handling this correctly. As Big C astutely stated, go protest all you want, but draw the line at anti semitism, vandalism, violence and segregation. If you want to actually move public opinion, there's a right way and wrong way of doing so. What's happening at UCLA isn't doing anything for the cause.

So hooray for Berkeley. While the rest of the elite universities are embroiled in conflict and controversy, we're just chilling and signing top 5 portal classes.
I wonder if the Berkeley admin has learned some lessons from other protests in recent years.
At a certain point, the left has to stop treating these left wing, pretend "liberals" (don't think they even understand liberalism) yelling hate speech and committing violence / hostile takeover of private property as some participant in free speech. These "brave" social justice warriors courageously hiding behind masks, whining about police brutality as they commit violence, and making racists / antisemitic statements completely empties any moral arguments anyone supporting these idiots may make in the future. Felt the same way about idiots treating rioters as protesters and completely bringing shame to the legitimate protesters participating in free speech. Two things can be wrong. I can be against 1/6th insurrectionists and these criminals.
I think there is a line on what should be encouraged and what shouldn't (Biden himself spoke to this today):

If protests don't involve violence or preventing others from going about their business, that's protected free speech. Once you do that other stuff, it's no longer protected. The behavior at UCLA clearly went over that line IMO. At Cal (at least so far), doesn't seem like it.




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Unit2Sucks
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12:32p, 5/2/24
Interesting lawsuit alleging certain US entities are masquerading as grass-roots orgs but actually collaborating with Hamas. I guess we'll eventually find out the truth, but this is going to take quite some time before it yields anything.




This is a really funny video of some of the ridiculousness at UCLA from the Tentifada. And lest anyone believe that anti-semitism is the only prejudice present in the movement.




It's not all fun and games though, Tentifada assaulted a Jewish student at UCLA.


And this is what radicalized lefty's say

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calbear93
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 12:54p, 5/2/24
Unit2Sucks said:
Interesting lawsuit alleging certain US entities are masquerading as grass-roots orgs but actually collaborating with Hamas. I guess we'll eventually find out the truth, but this is going to take quite some time before it yields anything.




This is a really funny video of some of the ridiculousness at UCLA from the Tentifada. And lest anyone believe that anti-semitism is the only prejudice present in the movement.




It's not all fun and games though, Tentifada assaulted a Jewish student at UCLA.


And this is what radicalized lefty's say




Bunch of white liberal wanna be saviors who have no understanding of oppression telling a black person who is attending UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts. How progressive of them.
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bear2034
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:00p, 5/2/24
These thugs are wearing hoodies and masks and were ganging up on one person so they're even more of a p*zzy than the person they were attacking. But who are these people? Not everyone who hates Israel government's policies is anti-Semite and not everyone who hates Hamas is a Zionist or pro-Israel.
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bear2034
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In reply to calbear93 • 1:06p, 5/2/24
calbear93 said:


Bunch of white liberal wanna be saviors who have no understanding of oppression telling a black person who is attending UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts. How progressive of them.

To be fair, based on where the clip started, it seemed like the black person made this about race. The protestor's job was to not let anyone cross regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexual preference, or political party.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:19p, 5/2/24
I'm sure there has been bad behavior from pro-Israel counter-protestors too. This is also not protected speech. However, those folks have mostly just done things in drive-by fashion and not set up a permanent camp while occupying a University building. The authorities are going to have a much easier time finding and arresting the latter.

Also, violence from one side does not justify anything and everything that comes from the other. Someone who opposes Israel's conduct in Gaza should understand this concept pretty well.
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calbear93
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In reply to bear2034 • 1:26p, 5/2/24
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:


Bunch of white liberal wanna be saviors who have no understanding of oppression telling a black person who is attending UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts. How progressive of them.

To be fair, based on where the clip started, it seemed like the black person made this about race. The protestor's job was to not let anyone cross regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexual preference, or political party.
Telling a black person who is a student at UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts and telling him to leave a place he has the right to be (more than the person asking him to leave) while acting like some "woke" social justice warrior is the epitome of vapidness of these "woke" empty-headed young white liberal saviors.
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calbear93
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In reply to sycasey • 1:31p, 5/2/24
sycasey said:
I'm sure there has been bad behavior from pro-Israel counter-protestors too. This is also not protected speech. However, those folks have mostly just done things in drive-by fashion and not set up a permanent camp while occupying a University building. The authorities are going to have a much easier time finding and arresting the latter.

Also, violence from one side does not justify anything and everything that comes from the other. Someone who opposes Israel's conduct in Gaza should understand this concept pretty well.
You have to wonder what their intended purpose is.

Similar to rioters who were burning down private property and looting. How did that help the BLM cause?

Are these outrageous behavior supposed to want to make me more aligned with their cause? Seems like idiots looking to feel better about themselves without any positive impact on the world.
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bear2034
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In reply to calbear93 • 1:34p, 5/2/24
calbear93 said:
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:


Bunch of white liberal wanna be saviors who have no understanding of oppression telling a black person who is attending UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts. How progressive of them.

To be fair, based on where the clip started, it seemed like the black person made this about race. The protestor's job was to not let anyone cross regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexual preference, or political party.
Telling a black person who is a student at UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts and telling him to leave a place he has the right to be (more than the person asking him to leave) while acting like some "woke" social justice warrior is the epitome of vapidness of these "woke" empty-headed young white liberal saviors.

Microaggressions? If the black person said "Death to America, Death to Israel, and Give Jihad a Chance" I'm sure he would have been allowed to walk through?
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calbear93
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In reply to bear2034 • 1:37p, 5/2/24
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:


Bunch of white liberal wanna be saviors who have no understanding of oppression telling a black person who is attending UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts. How progressive of them.

To be fair, based on where the clip started, it seemed like the black person made this about race. The protestor's job was to not let anyone cross regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexual preference, or political party.
Telling a black person who is a student at UCLA that he doesn't understand basic concepts and telling him to leave a place he has the right to be (more than the person asking him to leave) while acting like some "woke" social justice warrior is the epitome of vapidness of these "woke" empty-headed young white liberal saviors.

Microaggressions? If the black person said "Death to America, Death to Israel, and Give Jihad a Chance" I'm sure he would have been allowed to walk through?
So, it's selective wokeness? They will willingly perpetuate stereotypes of a black person to promote their latest SJW cause? I guess priorities.
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bear2034
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In reply to calbear93 • 1:51p, 5/2/24
calbear93 said:


So, it's selective wokeness? They will willingly perpetuate stereotypes of a black person to promote their latest SJW cause? I guess priorities.
What stereotype was he perpetuating and how do you know he didn't say the same thing to others who tried to challenge him?
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Big C
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In reply to oski003 • 1:54p, 5/2/24
oski003 said:
Big C said:
dajo9 said:
sycasey said:
The history of these Columbia protests has been a long series of overreactions, one after another. In that I include the school, the mayor, the police, the protesters themselves, and the media.
This is true.

I hadn't heard anything in the news about protests at Cal so I googled it and it seems the protesters are there but the admin is basically letting them have their free speech but not really responding. No confrontation means no media. The hotheads on both sides want confrontation so I applaud the Cal admin. I'm sure eventually a hothead on one side or the other will force the issue but for now free speech is happening and nobody seems to be overreacting (for now).

Exactly. One pundit recently cited "Berkeley" as one of the schools doing it right (by not escalating).

The protests are largely well-intentioned. if perhaps a bit ignorant on the historical perspective. Listen to what they have to say and let them have their moment. Draw the line at antisemitism, vandalism and disruption of campus functions. Must show student ID after sundown.


How do you enforce the must show student is after sundown? Are folks at UCLA willingly showing IDs and leaving if not students?

Good question. I don't know, exactly. My general point about that is that...

+ Cal is an "open" campus, such that if a non-student is there during the day, protesting peacefully, that's fine
+ if a group of Cal students decide to camp out on campus, in protest, I wouldn't make a huge deal of it
- but if a bunch of non-students are there at night, with their presence causing a problem, I draw the line there

My main fear is that those Antifa-type clowns are going to come in and escalate the whole thing into a projectile-fest. Probably only a matter of time, unfortunately.
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calbear93
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In reply to bear2034 • 1:56p, 5/2/24
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:


So, it's selective wokeness? They will willingly perpetuate stereotypes of a black person to promote their latest SJW cause? I guess priorities.
What stereotype was he perpetuating and how do you know he didn't say the same thing to others who tried to challenge him?
I see. So when a person assumes a person of color doesn't know how to get an ID or a police officer pulls over a black driver in a nice car, we need to prove a negative before inferring that stereotype came into play?
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bear2034
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In reply to calbear93 • 1:59p, 5/2/24
calbear93 said:
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:


So, it's selective wokeness? They will willingly perpetuate stereotypes of a black person to promote their latest SJW cause? I guess priorities.
What stereotype was he perpetuating and how do you know he didn't say the same thing to others who tried to challenge him?
I see. So when a person assumes a person of color doesn't know how to get an ID or a police officer pulls over a black driver in a nice car, we need to prove a negative before inferring that stereotype came into play?
It's a simple question. If you're going to call someone out for being a racist, you need to be specific, otherwise, everything can be racist.
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sycasey
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In reply to calbear93 • 2:13p, 5/2/24
calbear93 said:
sycasey said:
I'm sure there has been bad behavior from pro-Israel counter-protestors too. This is also not protected speech. However, those folks have mostly just done things in drive-by fashion and not set up a permanent camp while occupying a University building. The authorities are going to have a much easier time finding and arresting the latter.

Also, violence from one side does not justify anything and everything that comes from the other. Someone who opposes Israel's conduct in Gaza should understand this concept pretty well.
You have to wonder what their intended purpose is.

Similar to rioters who were burning down private property and looting. How did that help the BLM cause?

Are these outrageous behavior supposed to want to make me more aligned with their cause? Seems like idiots looking to feel better about themselves without any positive impact on the world.
There is one concrete ask I can see that actually makes sense: that American money no longer fund the war in Gaza. Some of the protestors actually speak to this. (One can agree or disagree with this request, but it's something that can be discussed at least.)

Unfortunately, a lot of them also talk about eliminating Israel entirely or dismantling American capitalism and colonialism or requesting better pay/benefits for adjunct faculty (seriously). There is definitely a messaging problem here.
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movielover
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2:39p, 5/2/24
Joe Biden did this. Soros probably helping.
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bearister
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2:46p, 5/2/24
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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calbear93
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In reply to bear2034 • 3:28p, 5/2/24
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:
bear2034 said:
calbear93 said:


So, it's selective wokeness? They will willingly perpetuate stereotypes of a black person to promote their latest SJW cause? I guess priorities.
What stereotype was he perpetuating and how do you know he didn't say the same thing to others who tried to challenge him?
I see. So when a person assumes a person of color doesn't know how to get an ID or a police officer pulls over a black driver in a nice car, we need to prove a negative before inferring that stereotype came into play?
It's a simple question. If you're going to call someone out for being a racist, you need to be specific, otherwise, everything can be racist.
Not a simple question, since you are making a false statement. Show me where I said they were racist. So much for being specific.
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calbear93
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In reply to sycasey • 3:31p, 5/2/24
sycasey said:
calbear93 said:
sycasey said:
I'm sure there has been bad behavior from pro-Israel counter-protestors too. This is also not protected speech. However, those folks have mostly just done things in drive-by fashion and not set up a permanent camp while occupying a University building. The authorities are going to have a much easier time finding and arresting the latter.

Also, violence from one side does not justify anything and everything that comes from the other. Someone who opposes Israel's conduct in Gaza should understand this concept pretty well.
You have to wonder what their intended purpose is.

Similar to rioters who were burning down private property and looting. How did that help the BLM cause?

Are these outrageous behavior supposed to want to make me more aligned with their cause? Seems like idiots looking to feel better about themselves without any positive impact on the world.
There is one concrete ask I can see that actually makes sense: that American money no longer fund the war in Gaza. Some of the protestors actually speak to this. (One can agree or disagree with this request, but it's something that can be discussed at least.)

Unfortunately, a lot of them also talk about eliminating Israel entirely or dismantling American capitalism and colonialism or requesting better pay/benefits for adjunct faculty (seriously). There is definitely a messaging problem here.
It's not even the substance. It's the manner. You may agree with those who are against Trump. Now if they trespass on your property, burn down your porch, and break into your home to make that statement, their message may not be as persuasive.
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to Lets Go Brandon 23 • 5:18p, 5/2/24
The Ghoul said:
bearister said:

Mr Donziger needs less giddiness of the moment and more realistic historical perspective.
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MinotStateBeav
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8:41p, 5/2/24
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students. I am fine with the protests btw, but these stupid "building villages" kinds of protests need to stop.
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Cal88
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 8:48p, 5/2/24
MinotStateBeav said:
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students.

Their cause is compelling enough that they were going to act out regardless. Camping on the quad is a fairly benign form of protest, there is no need to slam their heads into the curb or shoot them with rubber bullets. It's not like they are Running Wolf and Dumpster Muffin protesting against the cutting of a dozen trees, these kids are raising consciousness about a bona fide 21st century genocide in which our government is the main enabler.
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Big C
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 8:56p, 5/2/24
MinotStateBeav said:
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students. I am fine with the protests btw, but these stupid "building villages" kinds of protests need to stop.

The time-honored dilemma: Do you "nip it in the bud" right away, or do you humor them -- listen to them even -- and let them blow off a little steam, hoping that things peter out before they get bad. I would tend to vote for the latter, especially at our institutions of higher learning, but I am concerned that "Antifa" (AKA thugs looking for a little action) is going to step in.
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bearister
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In reply to Cal88 • 9:06p, 5/2/24
ZRW got convicted of a hate crime involving vandalizing a synagouge.

Conviction affirmed on appeal.
People v. Brown, No. A163445 | Casetext Search + Citator


https://casetext.com/case/people-v-brown-8030



Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to Big C • 9:31p, 5/2/24
Big C said:
MinotStateBeav said:
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students. I am fine with the protests btw, but these stupid "building villages" kinds of protests need to stop.

The time-honored dilemma: Do you "nip it in the bud" right away, or do you humor them -- listen to them even -- and let them blow off a little steam, hoping that things peter out before they get bad. I would tend to vote for the latter, especially at our institutions of higher learning, but I am concerned that "Antifa" (AKA thugs looking for a little action) is going to step in.
What is a university "listening to them" for? What is Cal, UCLA, UT-Austin and Columbia going to do? This is what I mean...every protest thinks their cause is the most srs cause of all causes. Universities can allow protest while still having rules. Lots of florida universities have allowed protesting without allowing camps to be set up and chaos didn't ensue. If its about allowing them to have a platform and be heard, then rules are ok. If its about narcissism, then people are gonna have to be arrested most likely. Lets be honest, a lot of these lil trust fund babies love the attention.
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CaliforniaEternal
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In reply to Big C • 9:40p, 5/2/24
Big C said:
MinotStateBeav said:
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students. I am fine with the protests btw, but these stupid "building villages" kinds of protests need to stop.

The time-honored dilemma: Do you "nip it in the bud" right away, or do you humor them -- listen to them even -- and let them blow off a little steam, hoping that things peter out before they get bad. I would tend to vote for the latter, especially at our institutions of higher learning, but I am concerned that "Antifa" (AKA thugs looking for a little action) is going to step in.

Your last point is why encampments can never be allowed. When you don't enforce your own campus policies, that's a green light for organized agitators to come in and become violent.

Why not let people protest on Sproul during the day and clear it out overnight? It's hard enough for the police to maintain order during the day. A large cluster of tents presents big security risks.
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Big C
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 10:40p, 5/2/24
MinotStateBeav said:
Big C said:
MinotStateBeav said:
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students. I am fine with the protests btw, but these stupid "building villages" kinds of protests need to stop.

The time-honored dilemma: Do you "nip it in the bud" right away, or do you humor them -- listen to them even -- and let them blow off a little steam, hoping that things peter out before they get bad. I would tend to vote for the latter, especially at our institutions of higher learning, but I am concerned that "Antifa" (AKA thugs looking for a little action) is going to step in.
What is a university "listening to them" for? What is Cal, UCLA, UT-Austin and Columbia going to do? This is what I mean...every protest thinks their cause is the most srs cause of all causes. Universities can allow protest while still having rules. Lots of florida universities have allowed protesting without allowing camps to be set up and chaos didn't ensue. If its about allowing them to have a platform and be heard, then rules are ok. If its about narcissism, then people are gonna have to be arrested most likely. Lets be honest, a lot of these lil trust fund babies love the attention.

The reason you listen to them is that it's an educational institution... a university. People come there to learn and exchange ideas.
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Big C
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 10:41p, 5/2/24
CaliforniaEternal said:
Big C said:
MinotStateBeav said:
It's the fault of the universities, they could have nipped these in the bud day 1, no tents, no building supplies. They allowed these protests to grow out of control because of weak administrations who were scared to act like adults and say "no". They knew people coming onto their campus leading many of them weren't even students. I am fine with the protests btw, but these stupid "building villages" kinds of protests need to stop.

The time-honored dilemma: Do you "nip it in the bud" right away, or do you humor them -- listen to them even -- and let them blow off a little steam, hoping that things peter out before they get bad. I would tend to vote for the latter, especially at our institutions of higher learning, but I am concerned that "Antifa" (AKA thugs looking for a little action) is going to step in.

Your last point is why encampments can never be allowed. When you don't enforce your own campus policies, that's a green light for organized agitators to come in and become violent.

Why not let people protest on Sproul during the day and clear it out overnight? It's hard enough for the police to maintain order during the day. A large cluster of tents presents big security risks.

That's reasonable.
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Unit2Sucks
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5:06a, 5/3/24
Tentifada larpers are such an unserious bunch. The only cause they are in service of is having their parents treat them like children.

Biden should promise not to cancel student loans for anyone participating in these silly "protests."




They don't want a ceasefire; they have been radicalized to support terrorism.



No lies detected.
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dajo9
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 5:16a, 5/3/24
Unit2Sucks said:




That was better the first time when it was a Monthy Python skit
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dajo9
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 5:18a, 5/3/24
Unit2Sucks said:

No lies detected.
100% truth
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CaliforniaEternal
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9:15a, 5/3/24
A great sumnary from ucla:

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bear2034
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 11:54a, 5/3/24
CaliforniaEternal said:
oski003 said:
CaliforniaEternal said:
dajo9 said:
CaliforniaEternal said:
dajo9 said:
Unit2Sucks said:
Humanitarians like the Ayatollah and college kids agree.



Imagine if our kids ever found out what happens in the Middle East outside of Israel.

Quote:
It's also worth noting that the Supreme Leader is tweeting on a platform which is banned in Iran, praising free speech and free assembly that is also illegal in Iran, and celebrating protestors abroad while lynching them at home.


We don't want allies like that either. Get out of the middle east. It only drags us down. We don't have to choose sides in a fight between *******s.
The notion that the US can avoid a presence in the Middle East is asylum-level delusion. It takes a two second look at Google Maps to realize that without security there, the world economy can't function.


Why?

20-30% of the world's shipping container traffic moves between the Red Sea. There is no reasonable alternative to the Suez Canal for a large part of the world's trade.


Dajo9 is making a pretty serious allegation against you. Out of curiosity, have you wanted to lift a finger for climate change in the past? Will you want to lift a finger for climate change in the future?

Well, I do like to gawk when riding in my brother in law's cybertruck. Does that count?


No doubt.
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Unit2Sucks
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12:49p, 5/3/24
Interesting take, but we should ignore this dude in favor of "real" Muslim Arabs, like the Tentifada.


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I was born Muslim and lived all my life as an Arab. There was not a single day that I felt like a minority, that my mother tongue or culture was threatened with extinction, or that people singled me out because of my color, language or whatever I say or do. We have 21 Arab countries, half of them are dumpsters not worth being called states.

The total mass of territories under Arab sovereignty is 13.3 million sq km. The total mass of Israel with Palestinian Territories is 25 thousand sq km. Yet, somehow, the majority of Arabs think that conceding this tiny fraction of land to Jewish sovereignty is the end of the world, and that our salvation is incumbent on destroying Jewish nationhood.

My closest friends are Jews with an Arab mother tongue. Their life experience has been the total opposite experience of mine, suffering discrimination, unfair treatment (socially and politically) and everything that we today call antisemitism. Naftali Bennet captures it beautifully in his Post below.

You don't have to be pro-Israel. You only have to be fair and graceful. A negligible 25k thousand sq km allows Jews to maintain their culture -- including language and traditions -- and pass them onto their off springs like all other cultures do. Jewish existence in the midst of Arabs offers desperately needed diversity and breaks the liberty-suppressing uniformity of the Arab/Muslim world.

But no, we Arabs, who cannot even sort out the endless bloody feud between Sunni and Shia, who force minorities like Druze, Alawis and others to hide their faith, think that Jews will have a blast living under our sovereignty, a fantasy that not a single stretch of our history can substantiate.

And now on top of it all, we the Arabs got anyone with insecurity from other nations (Western and non-Arab Muslims) to join our own craziness and cheer for us. It's incumbent on us, Arabs, to stand up and say no. Our world will only be fixed with our own hands and our own ideas. Time to break taboos and think outside the silly Palestine box.

Signed: Arab peace with Israel and liberty everywhere
And, here's a guy who's actually from Gaza but isn't aligned with the extremists controlling the Hamas-funded campus "protests":


But the leftists and other extremists pretend like these are the real experts:



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Cal88
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3:59p, 5/3/24
"Psychotic Bat" is triggered by students praying like muslims, oh the horror!

But it gets worse, so much worse:
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