In our current world, LBJ would be a communist and Barry Goldwater, a liberal.

tommie317;842316707 said:

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Economy is great. I'm sorry it sucks for you.

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You sound like an Obama one percenter. The top one percent has done very, very well under Obama. Far better than under Bush.

movielover;842316937 said:

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You sound like an Obama one percenter. The top one percent has done very, very well under Obama. Far better than under Bush.

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Lmfao! The irony.

NYCGOBEARS;842316941 said:

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Lmfao! The irony.

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The utter irony and truth. Something like 40% of the increase in wages went to the top 1% under Clinton; 60% under Bush; and 85% under Obama. But the mainstream liberal press won't report that... heck, they helped get him elected.

bearister;842316729 said:

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What is your opinion of the president that initiated a pretextual war in Iraq that resulted in the unnecessary death and physical and psychological maiming of thousands and at a cost of over a trillion dollars?

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I was not a fan of that war and those actions... use drones like Obama, take out training facilities, and protect our own borders and airplanes / ports.

A big chunk of that blame can be given to Clinton, who was a good president (with Gingrich & Perot), but who didn't take out OBL.

Obama is weak in this regard, cutting the military at every chance while non-military spending goes through the roof. The fact that we haven't had more terrorist attacks on American soil under Obama's watch has more to do with dumb luck, and the terrorists poor abilities at bomb making. I think the numbers I have seen are 5 or 6 attacks under Obama in 5 years, zero under Bush in 7 years.

movielover;842316958 said:

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The utter irony and truth. Something like 40% of the increase in wages went to the top 1% under Clinton; 60% under Bush; and 85% under Obama. But the mainstream liberal press won't report that... heck, they helped get him elected.

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Looks to me like a general trend, not something attributable to any one President.

OdontoBear66;842316886 said:

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Thought it was a stupid decision at the time, and continue to think Iraq was a horrible mistake. But what does that have to do with not liking the lack of performance of the current POTUS? I guess you assume if one does not like what the present POTUS is doing, one must like and defend the policies of his predecessor? My point, there is still a rapidly disappearing middle hopefully.

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You are correct, it has nothing to do with any alleged lack of performance on the part of the current POTUS. I just wanted to test my theory that most of the people I know that dump on President Obama give Dick Cheney and W. a free pass on their acts of intentional misconduct that were and are exponentially more damaging to the U.S. and the world than any of President Obama's f ups. For all I know you may have voted for POTUS and are now unhappy with him. That's cool, as is the fact you are not an Iraq War Denier.

bearister;842316962 said:

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You are correct, it has nothing to do with any alleged lack of performance on the part of the current POTUS. I just wanted to test my theory that most of the people I know that dump on President Obama give Dick Cheney and W. a free pass on their acts of intentional misconduct that were and are exponentially more damaging to the U.S. and the world than any of President Obama's f ups. For all I know you may have voted for POTUS and are now unhappy with him. That's cool, as is the fact you are not an Iraq War Denier.

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Actually no. But if one is truly moderate neither postures are very appealing. My simplified view of the pol parties in America is that one gets in office to overspend one way, while the other does the same thing, just in a different direction. Probably a bit too pragmatic view of the country, but regardless, it is where I posture. I suspect it is not OK to find overly generous public employee pensions and going to/preparing for war, equally repugnant?

OdontoBear66;842316978 said:

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....I suspect it is not OK to find overly generous public employee pensions and going to/preparing for war, equally repugnant?

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I think that would be textbook false equivalence. One can reasonably argue that the public pensions are a shameful waste of money. However, a pretextual war that served no purpose other than to enrich defense contractors and their shareholders and that resulted in immeasurable death and human suffering (and wasted money as well) is a grave moral evil. I have done pro bono work for returning Vets trying to help them get benefits from the VA. We have thousands of young men and women in very bad shape right now and what purpose did it serve?

If you ever have time for some spare reading:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whose-war/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/etc/script.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/etc/script2.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/etc/script.html

bearister;842316991 said:

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I think that would be textbook false equivalence. One can reasonably argue that the public pensions are a shameful waste of money. However, a pretextual war that served no purpose other than to enrich defense contractors and their shareholders and that resulted in immeasurable death and human suffering (and wasted money as well) is a grave moral evil. I have done pro bono work for returning Vets trying to help them get benefits from the VA. We have thousands of young men and women in very bad shape right now and what purpose did it serve?

If you ever have time for some spare reading:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whose-war/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/etc/script.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/etc/script2.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/etc/script.html

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Certainly a false equivalence were I to compare the pain and suffering of individuals with a generalized economic pain of a group based on the excessive grab of a few. My equivalence was more on an pure economic thrust, and the waste of each. BTW, thanks for the reading list. I shall pursue it.

movielover;842316960 said:

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I think the numbers I have seen are 5 or 6 attacks under Obama in 5 years, zero under Bush in 7 years.

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Wait, what? I seem to remember at least one big terrorist attack under Bush.

bearister;842316991 said:

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However, a pretextual war that served no purpose other than to enrich defense contractors and their shareholders and that resulted in immeasurable death and human suffering (and wasted money as well) is a grave moral evil.

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I recently came across this interview for National Review with Michael Gove, the UK's Education Minister, which I thought was quite interesting. He talks about Iraq, and I'm curious (genuinely so---I'm not trying to make a big point in posting this) of the response of people vehemently opposed to the war.

Quote:

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I say to Gove, "Should we be embarrassed by our support of the Iraq War?" "No," he says. "Of course, mistakes were made it's a clich to say so, but it's true." He then cites a column by his friend Matthew d'Ancona, a well-known journalist here in Britain. The column was headed "Tony Blair's instincts on Iraq were right and Syria proves it." The subheading was, "Unlike citizens who attempt to arrest him, the former PM grasps the perils of inaction in a post-9/11 world." As d'Ancona recounted, a young man named Twiggy Garcia, working in a restaurant in which Blair was eating, tried to make a "citizen's arrest" of Blair.

With me, Gove notes the end of d'Ancona's column:

[INDENT]One wonders how many detainees have been maimed and killed since the Commons rejected possible military action against the Syrian dictator last August. This, of course, is Blair's strongest point: that inaction, as much as intervention, has a cost. It is not always right to intervene, and often impractical to do so in any case. But those who do nothing should be held to account, too. Who interrupts the appeaser's meal?[/INDENT]

The point, says Gove, "is, What would have happened if we hadn't acted [in Iraq]? Nobody explores that counterfactual. And I think it would have been disastrous."

He then says, "I'll put it in crude terms and this is a difficult area but when we applied the maximum amount of resolution, i.e., during the surge, then the benefits were being reaped, and it was only when we felt, 'Okay, we're ahead and we can quit now,' that problems arose. In dealing with these things, you must not succumb to attention deficit disorder. . . .

"I also think that the situation in the Arab world was and is unsustainable. What happened in Iraq helped to generate the Arab Spring. The Arab Spring is going through particular problems at the moment, but the Arab Spring is like the French Revolution you have exuberance, joy, then the blood-soaked moment. Then you have the Napoleonic moment, and eventually things settle down. The whole point is that absolutism couldn't continue. There had to be a break."

Referring to England, Gove says, "We were lucky in that our experience of absolutism ended in 1649, and then by 1688 we were okay. The French took another hundred years for their upheaval, and it was more painful when it arrived. The Arab world is coming late to these changes, but hopefully things will work out for the best. In the meantime, the action that we took I think was right."

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movielover;842316958 said:

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The utter irony and truth. Something like 40% of the increase in wages went to the top 1% under Clinton; 60% under Bush; and 85% under Obama. But the mainstream liberal press won't report that... heck, they helped get him elected.

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So...are you blaming Obama for the Republican's filibustering of, and the House's refusal to take up any of, Obama's proposals to increase taxes on the rich.

Wikipedia excerpts on Michael Cove:

"The Financial Times describes Gove as having "strong neoconservative convictions".[14] He proposed that the invasion of Iraq would bring peace and democracy both to Iraq and the wider Middle East."

"Michael Gove has described himself as "a proud Zionist..."

Read Pat Buchanan's essay Whose War? that I linked in my previous post for his take on those with "strong neoconservative convictions" and their agenda with regard to the War in Iraq.

GivemTheAxe;842317018 said:

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So...are you blaming Obama for the Republican's filibustering of, and the House's refusal to take up any of, Obama's proposals to increase taxes on the rich.

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Why not? He already blamed Obama for authorizing a big stimulus package (which, admittedly, did raise the deficit a whole lot) to get us out of the economic mess created under his predecessor.

sycasey;842316961 said:

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Looks to me like a general trend, not something attributable to any one President.

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Bush goverened many years as a liberal, before he backed off. Obama has put billions into the hands of Wall Street via his failed "quantitative easing"... or maybe he succeeded? He'll probably make more money than Clinton in retirement... presidential library, million dollar speeches, etc.

GivemTheAxe;842317018 said:

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So...are you blaming Obama for the Republican's filibustering of, and the House's refusal to take up any of, Obama's proposals to increase taxes on the rich.

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Obama has raised plenty of taxes, the biggest being his dismantling of the best health care system in the world to give us something more akin to the VA ... which we have now learned was keeping 2 sets of books so that we wouldn't notice the long wait times... or deaths. Go figure. Obama also got his tax hike on the rich, numerous taxes built into Obamacare, and has proposed at least 400 additional taxes in 5 years as he tries to restructure America to his progressive international vision.

movielover;842317039 said:

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the best health care system in the world

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lol

movielover;842317039 said:

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Obama has raised plenty of taxes, the biggest being his dismantling of the best health care system in the world to give us something more akin to the VA ... which we have now learned was keeping 2 sets of books so that we wouldn't notice the long wait times... or deaths. Go figure. Obama also got his tax hike on the rich, numerous taxes built into Obamacare, and has proposed at least 400 additional taxes in 5 years as he tries to restructure America to his progressive international vision.

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Boy, you've got the Tea Party talking points nailed. Is that you Senator Cruz?

movielover;842317037 said:

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Bush goverened many years as a liberal, before he backed off. Obama has put billions into the hands of Wall Street via his failed "quantitative easing"... or maybe he succeeded? He'll probably make more money than Clinton in retirement... presidential library, million dollar speeches, etc.

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Seriously, bruh... what kind of movies you love?

sycasey;842317043 said:

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lol

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Why else do Canadians come here for procedures? Oh yeah, multi-month waiting periods.

movielover;842317050 said:

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Why else do Canadians come here for procedures? Oh yeah, multi-month waiting periods.

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A few of them might do that, but as a group they don't actually want our health care system.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2009/08/never-mind-the-anecdotes-do-canadians-like-their-health-care-system.html

Quote:

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By an overwhelming margin, Canadians prefer the Canadian health care system to the American one. Overall, 82% said they preferred the Canadian system, fully ten times the number who said the American system is superior (8%)....from a Harris-Decima poll (.pdf), July 2009. .

The vast majority of Canadians, 91 per cent, felt that Canada's health care system was better than the United States...CTV, a Canadian television network, Jun. 29 2008, reporting on a survey, conducted by the Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail.

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movielover;842317039 said:

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Obama has raised plenty of taxes, the biggest being his dismantling of the best health care system in the world to give us something more akin to the VA ... which we have now learned was keeping 2 sets of books so that we wouldn't notice the long wait times... or deaths. Go figure. Obama also got his tax hike on the rich, numerous taxes built into Obamacare, and has proposed at least 400 additional taxes in 5 years as he tries to restructure America to his progressive international vision.

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Your comments are an inconsistent response to my reply.
My reply was that the growth of income disparity was due in part to the fact that President Obama's proposed income tax hikes had been blocked by the Republicans.
First you say that Obama got the tax hikes he was requesting.
Then you indirectly admit that he did not get 400 additional taxes he proposed.

Which is it? Did the President get all the tax hikes on the rich he proposed or not?

bearister;842317056 said:

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:rollinglaugh:

The great __________ hope :woohoo

GivemTheAxe;842317070 said:

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Your comments are an inconsistent response to my reply.
My reply was that the growth of income disparity was due in part to the fact that President Obama's proposed income tax hikes had been blocked by the Republicans.
First you say that Obama got the tax hikes he was requesting.
Then you indirectly admit that he did not get 400 additional taxes he proposed.

Which is it? Did the President get all the tax hikes on the rich he proposed or not?

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Obama's "tax the rich" mantra works for votes, but we see it doesn't spur the economy. For the record if you want to tax Oprah and Robert Reich more, be my guest. "Tax the rich", "raise the minimum wage" and "let's address the income gap" play on old fears, but they don't deal with how to fund Social Security or Medicare (which he cut $400 Billion from), or how to get the economy going. We know from the past 5 years that Obama clearly doesn't know how to spur economic growth; his policies do the exact opposite.

Obama got many tax hikes on the so-called rich ... many who are your local programmer, dentist, or small business person. His tax hikes hit the rich and middle class. The biggest of all may be the ACA, which has numerous taxes built into it, and is a big reason why new jobs are lagging so badly.

BTW, 5 years out, and Obama and his cronies still can't get a budget out on time.

Your statement "My reply was that the growth of income disparity was due in part to the fact that President Obama's proposed income tax hikes had been blocked by the Republicans" makes no sense. If major tax hikes had yet to take effect, why do we have a widening income disparity?

We do know that Obama is printing money and loaning it to the banks at a 0% interest rate, which they give back to us and make a sweet 2% for zero risk. So the Wall Street managers, salesmen, lawyers, and peddlers make out like bandits. So does K Steet in DC. Hence the widening wage gap, caused by Obama's failed plan to spur the economy, which our community organizer doesn't know how to do.

On the other end, he pushed amnesty and an open border, which brings in millions more illegally from south of the border, which pinches the lower and middle classes. Obama is no friend to the American working man or woman.

movielover;842317039 said:

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Obama has raised plenty of taxes, the biggest being his dismantling of the best health care system in the world to give us something more akin to the VA ... which we have now learned was keeping 2 sets of books so that we wouldn't notice the long wait times... or deaths. Go figure. Obama also got his tax hike on the rich, numerous taxes built into Obamacare, and has proposed at least 400 additional taxes in 5 years as he tries to restructure America to his progressive international vision.

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American people would be so lucky as to have access to the VA.

movielover;842317165 said:

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Obama's "tax the rich" mantra works for votes, but we see it doesn't spur the economy. For the record if you want to tax Oprah and Robert Reich more, be my guest. "Tax the rich", "raise the minimum wage" and "let's address the income gap" play on old fears, but they don't deal with how to fund Social Security or Medicare (which he cut $400 Billion from), or how to get the economy going. We know from the past 5 years that Obama clearly doesn't know how to spur economic growth; his policies do the exact opposite.

Obama got many tax hikes on the so-called rich ... many who are your local programmer, dentist, or small business person. His tax hikes hit the rich and middle class. The biggest of all may be the ACA, which has numerous taxes built into it, and is a big reason why new jobs are lagging so badly.

BTW, 5 years out, and Obama and his cronies still can't get a budget out on time.

Your statement "My reply was that the growth of income disparity was due in part to the fact that President Obama's proposed income tax hikes had been blocked by the Republicans" makes no sense. If major tax hikes had yet to take effect, why do we have a widening income disparity?

We do know that Obama is printing money and loaning it to the banks at a 0% interest rate, which they give back to us and make a sweet 2% for zero risk. So the Wall Street managers, salesmen, lawyers, and peddlers make out like bandits. So does K Steet in DC. Hence the widening wage gap, caused by Obama's failed plan to spur the economy, which our community organizer doesn't know how to do.

On the other end, he pushed amnesty and an open border, which brings in millions more illegally from south of the border, which pinches the lower and middle classes. Obama is no friend to the American working man or woman.

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What's your favorite movie?

:Lindsay

SoCalBear323;842317174 said:

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What's your favorite movie?

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Hunger games.

Oppressive, socialistic government led by donald Sutherland (obama) which only benefits the 1%. A society where all freedoms have been stripped including, god forbid, the 2nd amendment.

The ruling class (silicone valley) gets to live with all the comforts of money and technology while denying such luxuries to the lower classes.

But fear not, katniss (palin) and Phillip Seymour Hoffman (Gingrich) are leading a revolt to overthrow the oppressive regime.

Lotta good movies out there. Cinema Paradiso, Seven Samuri, Hoop Dreams, ... as well as indy movies like Brother From Another Planet (interesting social commentary and special effects), Station Agent, and Gifted Hands: The Ben Carson Story. (Dr. Carson's Prayer Breakfast Speech 10 feet from President Obama is also an all-time classic.)

For the movie noted above, I'd instead cast maybe Ted Cruz, Bobby Jindahl or Gov. Scott Walker.

Prayer Breakfast

we have labels for groups of people
people have labels that they prefer, and one's they don't like
different people in these groups have different opinions about these labels
labels change over time
the labels that are ok in one part of the country may not be ok in another part of the country

some times people use a label with evil intent
sometimes people use labels with good intent

I'm generally okay with people using labels with good intent, even if it's not the one I prefer

movielover;842317213 said:

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Lotta good movies out there. Cinema Paradiso, Seven Samuri, Hoop Dreams, ... as well as indy movies like Brother From Another Planet (interesting social commentary and special effects), Station Agent, and Gifted Hands: The Ben Carson Story. (Dr. Carson's Prayer Breakfast Speech 10 feet from President Obama is also an all-time classic.)

For the movie noted above, I'd instead cast maybe Ted Cruz, Bobby Jindahl or Gov. Scott Walker.

Prayer Breakfast

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No Atlas Shrugged? You're suspect!

movielover;842317165 said:

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On the other end, he pushed amnesty and an open border, which brings in millions more illegally from south of the border, which pinches the lower and middle classes. Obama is no friend to the American working man or woman.

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This is so true. I lost my sweet leaf-blowing gig to one of those guys from south of the border. In order to maintain my middle class lifestyle I tried selling bags of oranges on the freeway offramp. Big mistake - that was even more competitive! Finally, decided to ply my trade as a day laborer in the home depot parking lot, but once again the illegals ruined that formerly middle class career choice.

:sarc:

Unit2Sucks;842317288 said:

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This is so true. I lost my sweet leaf-blowing gig to one of those guys from south of the border. In order to maintain my middle class lifestyle I tried selling bags of oranges on the freeway offramp. Big mistake - that was even more competitive! Finally, decided to ply my trade as a day laborer in the home depot parking lot, but once again the illegals ruined that formerly middle class career choice.

:sarc:

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Not to mentioned that Obama has deported more individuals than any president in U.S. History.