I think Viagra will blow up the diseased heart of the 5'11 (without lifts) 300 lbs orange fatman's heart while he is riding a call girl well before 2020.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Great now he's stolen the 2020 election in advance. Well, if all we talk about is Russia he probably does win- at which point we'd have to wonder whether it was the Democratic Party who best enabled Trump.

---

In other news, Michael Cohen the President's personal lawyer recorded Trump discussing payments to Karen McDougal who the National Enquirer paid $150,000 and then killed her story. Campaign Finance laws are going to cause a problem for Trumpito. The news is starting to get worse for Trump every day.

So when Trump works against Putin it's because he is this stable genius behind the curtain three steps ahead of anyone else but when he is blubbering on the stage in Helsinki he is Donald Trump? Sorry this is laughable. All of Trump's actions against Putin are in step with his foreign policy team except Merkel- which is actually one of the few things he is right about.

Putin is a two bit kleptocrat. Sure he wants to sow discord but the idea he is an existential threat to the US is total nonsense . He manages a fringe isolated country with few allies which we dominate militarily, geographically and economically. Obama was right when he laughed at Romney for suggesting this. The existential threat to the United States is Republican policies

BearNIt said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Great now he's stolen the 2020 election in advance. Well, if all we talk about is Russia he probably does win- at which point we'd have to wonder whether it was the Democratic Party who best enabled Trump.

---

In other news, Michael Cohen the President's personal lawyer recorded Trump discussing payments to Karen McDougal who the National Enquirer paid $150,000 and then killed her story. Campaign Finance laws are going to cause a problem for Trumpito. The news is starting to get worse for Trump every day.

---

"Rudolph W. Giuliani, Mr. Trump's personal lawyer, confirmed in a telephone conversation on Friday that Mr. Trump had discussed payments to Ms. McDougal with Mr. Cohen on the tape. He said the recording was less than two minutes long, said Mr. Trump did not know he was being recorded and claimed that the president had done nothing wrong."

Anarchistbear said:

---

mikecohen said:

---

B.A. Bearacus said:

---

Which one of you is George F. Will?

---

That is majorly too generous to Trump. I think he clearly understands the threats that keep him Putin's Puppet; and I think he clearly understands how to read the signals from his base that tell him what themes to play; although, as I write this, the realization occurs to me that his confusion is when he gets conflicting signals from, on the one hand, Putin, and, on the other hand, his base - not to mention the Republican donors who got the tax cut through by threatening the congressional Republicans with immediate dismissal while having the clout to accomplish that - keeping in mind, in this connection, Baron Rothschild's famous observation that the time to make money is when blood is running in the street.

---

Do you really think Trump is some kind of Manchurian candidate? The guy who can't speak a coherent sentence or keep a secret. Is this a guy the Russians would choose
as an agent? No, if Putin were going to run an operation Trump would be the last guy he'd involve which is why Trump is always talking about no collusion. He actually believes it.because it's true. The involvement was likely around him not with him.

---

Trump is the GOP and Putin's useful idiot. He's useful for different reasons but his role is the same. For the GOP he's expected to sign whatever they put in front of him and nominate whomever they tell him to. For Putin he just needs to sit up an beg like a good little boy and maybe he'll get the tummy rubs he was promised.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Putin is a two bit kleptocrat. Sure he wants to sow discord but the idea he is an existential threat to the US is total nonsense . He manages a fringe isolated country with few allies which we dominate militarily, geographically and economically. Obama was right when he laughed at Romney for suggesting this. The existential threat to the United States is Republican policies

---

Putin is indeed a 2-bit dictator. Which makes it all the more sad that he has partially co-opted one of the two major US political parties, its utterly corrupt figurehead, and its core base of voters. Our intelligence services are telling us Russia is directly attacking the US and we should defend ourselves. Cyberattacks are not new but the lack of collective will to defend the country by the party that controls all branches of government is the problem. Whether it is financial debts/control (Trump) or fear of being primaried out by the captured Trump voting base (most Republican legislators), the end result is the same.

So no, Putin is not an existential threat to the US unless we let him be. And right this moment, we are letting him be. Which was previously unthinkable. Hopefully voters can change that.

Edited to add: so in re-reading your post, I think I do agree with your last sentence.

2nd edit: lol voting base, not voting vase

Anarchistbear said:

---

So when Trump works against Putin it's because he is this stable genius behind the curtain three steps ahead of anyone else but when he is blubbering on the stage in Helsinki he is Donald Trump? Sorry this is laughable. All of Trump's actions against Putin are in step with his foreign policy team except Merkel- which is actually one of the few things he is right about.

---

Are you talking to yourself again?

dajo9 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

If he controls him why did Trump supply arms to the Ukraine, why did he bomb Assad positions in Syria, why did he increase sanctions, why did he stop the Iran deal, why did he call out Merkel for buying Russian gas. All of which were against Putin and an escalation of US policy

---

Let's take your bogus propaganda barrage one at a time:
1 - Arms in Ukraine - This is your only claim with even a bit of merit. It also benefits the military industrial complex in America.
2 - Bomb Assad - Because after notifying Russia that the bombing was coming it presented a nice bit of media coverage for Trump without actually doing anything to Putin / Assad
3 - Increase sanctions - Because after he said he was against increasing sanctions, Congress passed them with a veto-proof majority and Trump did not want to be humiliated so he did nothing
4 - Iran Deal - Because this raises gas prices around the world which directly benefits Putin
5 - Merkel gas - Because the goal is to divide NATO, the specific cause of the divisions is almost irrelevant

---

It's absolutely INSANE that any rationale person bites on the Trump has been tough on Russia lie. He has dragged his feet on anything that actually punishes or restricts Russia and WILL not do anything substantive to Putin or assist in the defense against future attacks.

The "increased sanctions" claim is the most bat**** crazy. That was an act of Congress (in continuation of Obama policy) AGAINST Trump's wishes. He sat on it for what, seven months? Didn't he threaten to veto the sanctions? Aren't there still sanctions he hasn't enacted? I think that is the case.

dajo9 said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

If he controls him why did Trump supply arms to the Ukraine, why did he bomb Assad positions in Syria, why did he increase sanctions, why did he stop the Iran deal, why did he call out Merkel for buying Russian gas. All of which were against Putin and an escalation of US policy

---

Let's take your bogus propaganda barrage one at a time:
1 - Arms in Ukraine - This is your only claim with even a bit of merit. It also benefits the military industrial complex in America.
2 - Bomb Assad - Because after notifying Russia that the bombing was coming it presented a nice bit of media coverage for Trump without actually doing anything to Putin / Assad
3 - Increase sanctions - Because after he said he was against increasing sanctions, Congress passed them with a veto-proof majority and Trump did not want to be humiliated so he did nothing
4 - Iran Deal - Because this raises gas prices around the world which directly benefits Putin
5 - Merkel gas - Because the goal is to divide NATO, the specific cause of the divisions is almost irrelevant

---

Re 3: IIRC, the sanctions law requires some implementation action on the part of Trump which he simply has not been doing.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Putin is a two bit kleptocrat. Sure he wants to sow discord but the idea he is an existential threat to the US is total nonsense . He manages a fringe isolated country with few allies which we dominate militarily, geographically and economically. Obama was right when he laughed at Romney for suggesting this. The existential threat to the United States is Republican policies

---

Putin is powerful enough to have essentially destroyed the country of Syria, and maimed the lives of a substantial majority (millions) of its people; and to have intimidated the U.S. (now in two administrations) from doing anything about it - not to mention taking over the territory of a sovereign nation, again without the U.S. having any ability to to do anything about it. And, in connection with Syria, the alliances he has formed in that region with Iran and its allies (not just the various "terrorist" groups but also the country of Iraq through its Shia majority) are important enough to dictate events in that region (other than in Saudi Arabia) for the foreseeable future.

I keep asking myself, what becomes of the swathes of low-information Trump supporters--not the supporters who are just knee jerk GOP or are gaining financially, but the cult-of-personality-authoritarian-loving, immigrant-and-gay-and-Liberal hating folk who have no real idea what makes America great and abuse the words like freedom, faith, and patriotism. I think America will regain its sanity and that Trump and Pence will end up in jail...but what becomes of the rally going Trump crowds?

Will those people return to their lives of subordination? Will they feel any shame as German Nazi sympathizers did, disappearing into other countries or background of civil society again? Or will they become defiant looking for the next Trump or starting civil war in some form or another? I can't help wonder if the GOP NRA strategy was in some way to arm their brown shirts, and to have their uncivil militia handy if it comes down to guns in the street against the evil leftists.

I suspect we will at the very least have many acts of indiscriminate violence by the loving Christian white supremacist good guys with a gun who are so much better than those Islamic zealots. We'll see.

The war in Syria is more closely correlated with the war in Iraq. Our disastrous policies shifted power from Sunni to Shi'a giving birth to an alienated angry factionalism and ISIS. All the current factionalism in the Middle East- the battles in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen- stems from US policy not Russian.

Was Obama intimidated by Putin? I suspect after Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya he was just cautious. Putin stepped into this void. He won-for now. Obama never stopped engaging with Putin even after he knew the Russians hacked the DNC.

blungld said:

---

I keep asking myself, what becomes of the swathes of low-information Trump supporters--not the supporters who are just knee jerk GOP or are gaining financially, but the cult-of-personality-authoritarian-loving, immigrant-and-gay-and-Liberal hating folk who have no real idea what makes America great and abuse the words like freedom, faith, and patriotism. I think America will regain its sanity and that Trump and Pence will end up in jail...but what becomes of the rally going Trump crowds?

Will those people return to their lives of subordination? Will they feel any shame as German Nazi sympathizers did, disappearing into other countries or background of civil society again? Or will they become defiant looking for the next Trump or starting civil war in some form or another? I can't help wonder if the GOP NRA strategy was in some way to arm their brown shirts, and to have their uncivil militia handy if it comes down to guns in the street against the evil leftists.

I suspect we will at the very least have many acts of indiscriminate violence by the loving Christian white supremacist good guys with a gun who are so much better than those Islamic zealots. We'll see.

---

Who are these people you keep demonizing in knee jerk stereotypical fashion- gay hating, Nazis, brown shirts, low information, etc. I know Trump voters- a lot of them as I live in the South for part of the year-but they are complicated human beings. Are these the Trump voters you know? Or are you dealing in cartoons?

And why do those Trump voters who benefit financially or are hard core GOP get a pass? Why aren't WIAF and others also brown shirt low information voters preyed on by an authoritarian cult ? Or is it just the unknown and uneducated who are demonized?

Anarchistbear said:

---

Who are these people you keep demonizing in knee jerk stereotypical fashion- gay hating, Nazis, brown shirts, low information, etc. I know Trump voters- a lot of them as I live in the South for part of the year-but they are complicated human beings. Are these the Trump voters you know? Or are you dealing in cartoons?

And why do those Trump voters who benefit financially or are hard core GOP get a pass? Why aren't WIAF and others also brown shirt low information voters preyed on by an authoritarian cult ? Or is it just the unknown and uneducated who are demonized?

---

I know exactly who the Trump supporters are. They litter my family, and the suburban streets I grew up on. Yet, I still believe they live in a fantasy world. A lot of this is based on the fact the people I know have always lived in a suburb, and a wealthy suburb at that. Because of that, they have no first hand knowledge of how scary the world is not. How MS-13 is not on every street corner and not flooding into the cities. How immigrants are not living the welfare dream. How the world is not collapsing into a state of utter anarchy. They stay in their suburban bubble, consume the ratings-driven fear-mongering local TV news, they develop that 'other', an 'other' that they begin to fear, an 'other' that is going to destroy the safe little bubble they live in by turning it brown and filling it with crime, thus the 'other' they need to stop.

Or they can be like my uncle, who lived an unremarkable life. Someone who is not that intelligent, not that ambitious, and doesn't have great people skills. He never really developed in a professional world and ended up working at a low-paying low-skill dead-end job. His wife divorced him because financial concerns stressed the marriage, and he never really had many friends he could lean on. He would look out and see other people with successful careers, reasonably happy families, and a group of people he could spend time with and he would get jealous and frustrated that he didn't have that life. But instead of going to night school, developing people skills, or moving out of that small Midwestern town he lived in, he sat in his own little bubble and started to blame. His ego wouldn't allow him to think he needed to grow or develop as a person or that technology had passed his town by, instead he blamed the outside world, the 'other' for why his life was so pathetic.

I'm not against Republicans in general (I have a good amount of respect HW Bush), I believe fiscal responsibility is important for our government, but the hard core Trump supporters are ignorant in their knowledge of the world at large, yet have a sense of entitlement to what they believe is owed to them, and lack accountability for why they don't have that which they believe they are entitled to.

Are they a gay bashing Christian white supremacists and brown shirts?

Anarchistbear said:

---

Are they a gay bashing Christian white supremacists and brown shirts?

---

...and married to a black man? That would be Milo Yiannopooipants? AKA Milo Hanrohan.

Anarchistbear said:

---

The war in Syria is more closely correlated with the war in Iraq. Our disastrous policies shifted power from Sunni to Shi'a giving birth to an alienated angry factionalism and ISIS. All the current factionalism in the Middle East- the battles in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen- stems from US policy not Russian.

Was Obama intimidated by Putin? I suspect after Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya he was just cautious. Putin stepped into this void. He won-for now. Obama never stopped engaging with Putin even after he knew the Russians hacked the DNC.

---

I don't really think you are disagreeing with me

Anarchistbear said:

---

blungld said:

---

I keep asking myself, what becomes of the swathes of low-information Trump supporters--not the supporters who are just knee jerk GOP or are gaining financially, but the cult-of-personality-authoritarian-loving, immigrant-and-gay-and-Liberal hating folk who have no real idea what makes America great and abuse the words like freedom, faith, and patriotism. I think America will regain its sanity and that Trump and Pence will end up in jail...but what becomes of the rally going Trump crowds?

Will those people return to their lives of subordination? Will they feel any shame as German Nazi sympathizers did, disappearing into other countries or background of civil society again? Or will they become defiant looking for the next Trump or starting civil war in some form or another? I can't help wonder if the GOP NRA strategy was in some way to arm their brown shirts, and to have their uncivil militia handy if it comes down to guns in the street against the evil leftists.

I suspect we will at the very least have many acts of indiscriminate violence by the loving Christian white supremacist good guys with a gun who are so much better than those Islamic zealots. We'll see.

---

Who are these people you keep demonizing in knee jerk stereotypical fashion- gay hating, Nazis, brown shirts, low information, etc. I know Trump voters- a lot of them as I live in the South for part of the year-but they are complicated human beings. Are these the Trump voters you know? Or are you dealing in cartoons?

And why do those Trump voters who benefit financially or are hard core GOP get a pass? Why aren't WIAF and others also brown shirt low information voters preyed on by an authoritarian cult ? Or is it just the unknown and uneducated who are demonized?

---

You may recall that I have attributed Trumpist voters as having the virtue of expressing a massive hole in our politics created largely by financial hegemony which, as a first principle, prevents those on the left who would want to address the current, gross maldistribution of wealth and power from doing anything much about it (which essentially leaves out these peoples' needs, since the right has no interest in addressing them anyhow - not to mention workable ideas of how to address them). But I do think that, in order to sincerely support what Trump does and says (as opposed to the Russians and the big money people), you do have to be living in a cartoon world; and I'll say it: Think of Nazi Germany in which the whole country was dressed up in these cartoonish 1930s quasi-super-hero uniforms believing in the most insane predicates and living the most insane delusions capable only of mass destruction.

Nazis have little to do with Trump. They were a lot smarter and coherent. Mein Kampf lays out what they were about. What would you compare it to? The first year of The Apprentice.

Also it was called the National Socialist Party for a reason- authoritarianism under the cover of socialism-full of workers rights- healthcare, family leave, etc. If Trump had been that smart, he'd be President for life. (It's a model that is still alive, see what's happening in Poland). No, Trump is no Hitler leaving aside the other obvious joke- I don't think Hitler would have been as favorably disposed to the State of Israel and made his first overseas trip there. Trump is more of a two bit authoritarian who is genuinely crazy

As to Trump voters- a mixed bag. Probably the most obvious characteristic is that they are white, with and without college, with a sense of loss, economic or nostalgic for a "lost country." Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck and their income has been in decline for decades. Look at polling- 60% feels the country is headed the wrong way and its been that way for a decade. In this regard the people are way ahead of their leaders. We are heading the wrong way thanks to the depredations of capitalism and it's enablers, our two political parties.

So if you thought the country was headed the wrong way and were given the horrible choice we were in 2016, what would you do? Not vote ( a good choice.) Vote for a third party ( a protest vote). Or vote for the ursurper vs the establishment even if you knew he was flawed-because the system needed a kick in the teeth. (Trump by the way was very smart at spreading his venom between two entities- the government and corporations.) The only ones who were really surprised were the ones kicked in the teeth- the media and the Democrats, who blame everyone but themselves. It's not surprising that Russia is now the rallying cry for their own MAGA.

The good news is that getting rid of Clintons and Bushes and exposing the rampant corruption in our current authoritarian state has been a purgative. There is a future forming and it's not in Washington DC

I don't think he is that powerful or that he intimidated the US. He cleverly found a void in a chaotic battlefield and did what we wouldn't-commit troops and firepower to tip the scales

Anarchistbear said:

---

Nazis have little to do with Trump. They were a lot smarter and coherent. Mein Kampf lays out what they were about. What would you compare it to? The first year of The Apprentice.

Also it was called the National Socialist Party for a reason- authoritarianism under the cover of socialism-full of workers rights- healthcare, family leave, etc. If Trump had been that smart, he'd be President for life. (It's a model that is still alive, see what's happening in Poland). No, Trump is no Hitler leaving aside the other obvious joke- I don't think Hitler would have been as favorably disposed to the State of Israel and made his first overseas trip there. Trump is more of a two bit authoritarian who is genuinely crazy

As to Trump voters- a mixed bag. Probably the most obvious characteristic is that they are white, with and without college, with a sense of loss, economic or nostalgic for a "lost country." Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck and their income has been in decline for decades. Look at polling- 60% feels the country is headed the wrong way and its been that way for a decade. In this regard the people are way ahead of their leaders. We are heading the wrong way thanks to the depredations of capitalism and it's enablers, our two political parties.

So if you thought the country was headed the wrong way and were given the horrible choice we were in 2016, what would you do? Not vote ( a good choice.) Vote for a third party ( a protest vote). Or vote for the ursurper vs the establishment even if you knew he was flawed-because the system needed a kick in the teeth. (Trump by the way was very smart at spreading his venom between two entities- the government and corporations.) The only ones who were really surprised were the ones kicked in the teeth- the media and the Democrats, who blame everyone but themselves. It's not surprising that Russia is now the rallying cry for their own MAGA.

The good news is that getting rid of Clintons and Bushes and exposing the rampant corruption in our current authoritarian state has been a purgative. There is a future forming and it's not in Washington DC

---

I think you are downplaying the corruption and criminal activity of Trump and GOP leadership. This is beyond a power grab or political opportunism, this has been a malevolent conspiracy for profit. I believe we have witnessed high crimes (treason) that is in no way equivalent to the Clintons or what we would have experienced under Hillary (you may not like her or agree with her policy positions but the country would be doing pretty damn well with her as President now). I think it is disturbing that you equate the two and think this is a legitimate comparison. I do not absolve the Clintons of making moves to profit from public service--but they are fundamentally public servants who do work to improve the country and would NEVER betray the country in the way Trump has.

I hope that a silver lining is a major purge of corruption throughout both parties and the political system. But we have to get there first (the midterm could be a tipping point from which we will not recover for decades), and that means putting Democrats in power in November no matter your party loyalty. Then we have to pressure the hell out of the Democrats to not consolidate their own power and make real reform even at the cost of their own newly found political gains to ensure a better country with honest debate and representation for all in the future.

I believe the two biggest challenges facing this country now are income inequality and corruption. The Democrats are unquestionable the better choice now to fix those issues.

As it pertains to a free country, Democrats need to lead on election reform (lobbyists, PACS, donation limits and reporting, gerrymandering, voting purges, electoral college, cyber security, ranked voting methods, etc) & media reform (monopolies/consolidation, social media abuse, misinformation/propaganda, free press, separation of government and press, equal access, net neutrality). In short, get money out of the political system.

What I was trying to do was say why I thought people voted for Trump in a change elections, which is a question always asked on this board. I didn't vote for either.

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

The question is do we need two capitalist oriented parties or is there a better option than "we do less harm." Yes, but only if the Democratic Party is. subverted from the ground up. Trump's election makes that more possible-the curtain has been pulled to reveal rampant and systemic corruption. We are still in a period of great churn and hopefully the people rise up with a better scheme.

Anarchistbear said:

---

What I was trying to do was say why I thought people voted for Trump in a change elections, which is a question always asked on this board. I didn't vote for either.

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

The question is do we need two capitalist oriented parties or is there a better option than "we do less harm." Yes, but only if the Democratic Party is. subverted from the ground up. Trump's election makes that more possible-the curtain has been pulled to reveal rampant and systemic corruption. We are still in a period of great churn and hopefully the people rise up with a better scheme.

---

If this is the result (and I hope it is) maybe we get to one day say Trump was a necessary evil. Until then, I'll just stick with evil.

blungld said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Nazis have little to do with Trump. They were a lot smarter and coherent. Mein Kampf lays out what they were about. What would you compare it to? The first year of The Apprentice.

Also it was called the National Socialist Party for a reason- authoritarianism under the cover of socialism-full of workers rights- healthcare, family leave, etc. If Trump had been that smart, he'd be President for life. (It's a model that is still alive, see what's happening in Poland). No, Trump is no Hitler leaving aside the other obvious joke- I don't think Hitler would have been as favorably disposed to the State of Israel and made his first overseas trip there. Trump is more of a two bit authoritarian who is genuinely crazy

As to Trump voters- a mixed bag. Probably the most obvious characteristic is that they are white, with and without college, with a sense of loss, economic or nostalgic for a "lost country." Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck and their income has been in decline for decades. Look at polling- 60% feels the country is headed the wrong way and its been that way for a decade. In this regard the people are way ahead of their leaders. We are heading the wrong way thanks to the depredations of capitalism and it's enablers, our two political parties.

So if you thought the country was headed the wrong way and were given the horrible choice we were in 2016, what would you do? Not vote ( a good choice.) Vote for a third party ( a protest vote). Or vote for the ursurper vs the establishment even if you knew he was flawed-because the system needed a kick in the teeth. (Trump by the way was very smart at spreading his venom between two entities- the government and corporations.) The only ones who were really surprised were the ones kicked in the teeth- the media and the Democrats, who blame everyone but themselves. It's not surprising that Russia is now the rallying cry for their own MAGA.

The good news is that getting rid of Clintons and Bushes and exposing the rampant corruption in our current authoritarian state has been a purgative. There is a future forming and it's not in Washington DC

---

I think you are downplaying the corruption and criminal activity of Trump and GOP leadership. This is beyond a power grab or political opportunism, this has been a malevolent conspiracy for profit. I believe we have witnessed high crimes (treason) that is in no way equivalent to the Clintons or what we would have experienced under Hillary (you may not like her or agree with her policy positions but the country would be doing pretty damn well with her as President now). I think it is disturbing that you equate the two and think this is a legitimate comparison. I do not absolve the Clintons of making moves to profit from public service--but they are fundamentally public servants who do work to improve the country and would NEVER betray the country in the way Trump has.

I hope that a silver lining is a major purge of corruption throughout both parties and the political system. But we have to get there first (the midterm could be a tipping point from which we will not recover for decades), and that means putting Democrats in power in November no matter your party loyalty. Then we have to pressure the hell out of the Democrats to not consolidate their own power and make real reform even at the cost of their own newly found political gains to ensure a better country with honest debate and representation for all in the future.

I believe the two biggest challenges facing this country now are income inequality and corruption. The Democrats are unquestionable the better choice now to fix those issues.

As it pertains to a free country, Democrats need to lead on election reform (lobbyists, PACS, donation limits and reporting, gerrymandering, voting purges, electoral college, cyber security, ranked voting methods, etc) & media reform (monopolies/consolidation, social media abuse, misinformation/propaganda, free press, separation of government and press, equal access, net neutrality). In short, get money out of the political system.

---

Just: Easier said than done.

Anarchistbear said:

---

What I was trying to do was say why I thought people voted for Trump in a change elections, which is a question always asked on this board. I didn't vote for either.

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

The question is do we need two capitalist oriented parties or is there a better option than "we do less harm." Yes, but only if the Democratic Party is. subverted from the ground up. Trump's election makes that more possible-the curtain has been pulled to reveal rampant and systemic corruption. We are still in a period of great churn and hopefully the people rise up with a better scheme.

---

Agree with your second paragraph; and, because of it, the third paragraph is pie in the sky. Actually, I do think that the system has elements already in it that could result in at least the best that I can see right now; but the part that would help (an informed electorate) is severely crippled right now, and, because money is so important to us all, in the most real way, it is hard to see where enough political force sufficient to overcome its power and in favor of the wider public good would come from [other than the various historical paroxysms that have had that eventually beneficial effect - which paroxysms were basically political volcanic eruptions created by the truth of certain important realities being suppressed for too long].

mikecohen said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

What I was trying to do was say why I thought people voted for Trump in a change elections, which is a question always asked on this board. I didn't vote for either.

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

The question is do we need two capitalist oriented parties or is there a better option than "we do less harm." Yes, but only if the Democratic Party is. subverted from the ground up. Trump's election makes that more possible-the curtain has been pulled to reveal rampant and systemic corruption. We are still in a period of great churn and hopefully the people rise up with a better scheme.

---

Agree with your second paragraph; and, because of it, the third paragraph is pie in the sky. Actually, I do think that the system has elements already in it that could result in at least the best that I can see right now [which is a creative tension between (a) the real needs of the economy (regarding which capitalism is the best game in town at present); and (b) the real needs of the people that capitalism is incapable of addressing instead of making the situation worse] but the part that would help (an informed electorate) is severely crippled right now, and, because money is so important to us all, in the most real way, it is hard to see where enough political force sufficient to overcome its power and in favor of the wider public good would come from [other than the various historical paroxysms that have had that eventually beneficial effect - which paroxysms were basically political volcanic eruptions created by the truth of certain important realities being suppressed for too long].

---

Nazi actually have something to do with Trump...you know STEVE BANNON AND STEPHEN MILLER.

Those mofos are literally using the Nazi playbook. For god fccking sake, it's policy.

We got paroxysms up the a$$. We got paroxysms until the dogs come home. We got paroxysms until the sun don't shine.

Plus the Democratic Party leadership is in an advanced state of dementia. Chuck Schumer wouldn't know a paroxysm from his bedroom slippers.

Anarchistbear said:

---

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

---

The time is ripe for the Democratic Party to be rebuilt from the ground up. Most of their remaining leaders are 70+. Lots of first-time candidates will be running (have been running) to unseat Republicans. The opportunity is here, and I think left-leaning people are taking advantage of it.

But it will take some time to bear fruit.

Anarchistbear said:

---

the system needed a kick in the teeth

---

And is the system better for that kick?

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

---

The time is ripe for the Democratic Party to be rebuilt from the ground up. Most of their remaining leaders are 70+. Lots of first-time candidates will be running (have been running) to unseat Republicans. The opportunity is here, and I think left-leaning people are taking advantage of it.

But it will take some time to bear fruit.

---

The machinery of the Democratic Party is doing all it can to make sure that the investment bankers and lawyers continue to get represented and to hell with middle to lower income voters. That's just some stuff they say to get votes from non-Republicans before they enter office, keep the engine of war running, and make sure that the white collar criminals get away with everything.

Yogi Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

Are the Democrats better- yes, relatively. Will they do what you propose without a wholesale rebuild? I doubt it since our political system relies on capital to survive and capital also determines what is to be done. That is a fundamental underpinning of our system.

---

The time is ripe for the Democratic Party to be rebuilt from the ground up. Most of their remaining leaders are 70+. Lots of first-time candidates will be running (have been running) to unseat Republicans. The opportunity is here, and I think left-leaning people are taking advantage of it.

But it will take some time to bear fruit.

---

The machinery of the Democratic Party is doing all it can to make sure that the investment bankers and lawyers continue to get represented and to hell with middle to lower income voters. That's just some stuff they say to get votes from non-Republicans before they enter office, keep the engine of war running, and make sure that the white collar criminals get away with everything.

---

I agree, the Democratic Party should have pushed harder to punish white collar crime - but let's not forget that the Republican Party wants to completely hide (or make legal) white collar crime. But otherwise, this statement is incorrect.

The Democratic Party has worked to raise taxes on the wealthy and use the money for the benefit of middle to lower income voters, particularly for expansion of health care coverage. They have also pushed forward more regulation of banks and Wall Street. These are things the Democratic Party has actually done - not just talk.

mikecohen said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

blungld said:

---

I keep asking myself, what becomes of the swathes of low-information Trump supporters--not the supporters who are just knee jerk GOP or are gaining financially, but the cult-of-personality-authoritarian-loving, immigrant-and-gay-and-Liberal hating folk who have no real idea what makes America great and abuse the words like freedom, faith, and patriotism. I think America will regain its sanity and that Trump and Pence will end up in jail...but what becomes of the rally going Trump crowds?

Will those people return to their lives of subordination? Will they feel any shame as German Nazi sympathizers did, disappearing into other countries or background of civil society again? Or will they become defiant looking for the next Trump or starting civil war in some form or another? I can't help wonder if the GOP NRA strategy was in some way to arm their brown shirts, and to have their uncivil militia handy if it comes down to guns in the street against the evil leftists.

I suspect we will at the very least have many acts of indiscriminate violence by the loving Christian white supremacist good guys with a gun who are so much better than those Islamic zealots. We'll see.

---

Who are these people you keep demonizing in knee jerk stereotypical fashion- gay hating, Nazis, brown shirts, low information, etc. I know Trump voters- a lot of them as I live in the South for part of the year-but they are complicated human beings. Are these the Trump voters you know? Or are you dealing in cartoons?

And why do those Trump voters who benefit financially or are hard core GOP get a pass? Why aren't WIAF and others also brown shirt low information voters preyed on by an authoritarian cult ? Or is it just the unknown and uneducated who are demonized?

---

You may recall that I have attributed Trumpist voters as having the virtue of expressing a massive hole in our politics created largely by financial hegemony which, as a first principle, prevents those on the left who would want to address the current, gross maldistribution of wealth and power from doing anything much about it (which essentially leaves out these peoples' needs, since the right has no interest in addressing them anyhow - not to mention workable ideas of how to address them). But I do think that, in order to sincerely support what Trump does and says (as opposed to the Russians and the big money people), you do have to be living in a cartoon world; and I'll say it: Think of Nazi Germany in which the whole country was dressed up in these cartoonish 1930s quasi-super-hero uniforms believing in the most insane predicates and living the most insane delusions capable only of mass destruction.

---

Why should we think of nazi Germany and cartoonist super hero uniforms? What does that have to do with anything? Perhaps, there were a lot of cartoons mocking nazis which led to their uniforms being cartoonish. Officer uniforms are pretty silly for all countries. The current presidency is not like the Nazi Regime. If anything, China is like 1930s Germany. US is making nice with Russia because China is the real problem, and Russia is the only country in that region with a military that can counter China. On the other hand, if Russia back China's imperialistic expansion and uses a confrontation with China as an opportunity to regain its lost glory, we are in trouble. The previous administration and its supporters do not want to admit that China is a real threat.