Will the NRA's grip on the GOP diminish in your lifetime? (Y/N)

Anarchistbear
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The NRA gets their power not through money or members-Bloomberg has a lot of $; the NRA hasn't a lot of members.They get their power from grassroots political organizing-they get you elected.

If liberals want to change the conversation don't rely on the federal government or outrage, elect people in Florida who will change the conversation. There does appear to be a grassroots movement to do this.

The second amendment, the Bill of Rights-being the work of Jefferson and Madison- is in the DNA of America. It's not changing because the majority of states don't want it to change. Gun control at this point of time is a local issue. At the same time, gun control and the second amendment are not mutually exclusive
bearister
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BearsWiin, watching the CNN special on Patty Hearst. A retired LAPD SWAT said that in the shootout in LA the SLA were using modified M1 carbines with a fire rate of 1200 per minute. I found this article:
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/firing-line/42919-patti-hearst-s-mi-carbine.html#/topics/42919?page=1
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B.A. Bearacus
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Lots of proposed solutions being thrown out, big and small. Let's not overcomplicate it to the point of paralysis. The last assault weapons ban that was allowed to expire was effective at reducing mass killings. Anyone want to deny that? Flip the switch back on for that mofo, then keep building off that. Lets go!

Also, a doctor's take on the effect of shots fired from an AR-15 on the human body:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/
sonofabear51
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Roman!
sonofabear51
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Way to go Bears!
BearsWiin
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bearister said:

BearsWiin, watching the CNN special on Patty Hearst. A retired LAPD SWAT said that in the shootout in LA the SLA were using modified M1 carbines with a fire rate of 1200 per minute. I found this article:
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/firing-line/42919-patti-hearst-s-mi-carbine.html#/topics/42919?page=1
Generally, modified M1 carbines become M2 carbines. I've shot a modified M1 carbine at full auto for some clay pigeon shooting - didn't hit the clay but had a lot of fun emptying the 30-round magazine - and that gun was rated at around 600rpm. Real M2s had higher rates of fire (850-900rpm), but they were manufactured specifically for select-fire and didn't just have receiver parts filed down by do-it-yourselfers*. Not sure how you'd ever get that up to 1200 rpm, or why you would want to. Something that fires that quickly really needs to be A) heavy to minimize all that recoil and B) belt-fed (like the German MG42).

Had the opportunity to try an Automag III handgun chambered for the .30 carbine many years ago. Smooth action and less recoil than I expected, but the gun has to be so heavy (like the IMI Desert Eagle .50) that you really need the forearms of a blacksmith to handle it properly.

* I have a FN SAFN that was manufactured for the Egyptian Army in the early 1950's that has seen enough wear to go full-auto on its own from time to time. It's a heavy battle rifle, but with the power of the 7.92x57 Mauser round, even three or four shots will buck the muzzle waay up and off target if I'm not careful.
bearister
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The For Sale sign on the Egyptian Army gun said "Fired once. Dropped 5 times."
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BearsWiin
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bearister said:

The For Sale sign on the Egyptian Army gun said "Fired once. Dropped 5 times."
When I first got it I stripped it down to familiarize myself with the inner workings as well as to make sure everything was clean. Receiver and action were in good shape, but when I flipped open the cap in the shoulder stock that originally housed the cleaning kit, a good 3-4 tablespoons of sand came pouring out. Dunno if it was from Yemen or the Sinai, or perhaps Hurghada. Love to know the stories that the gun could tell, if it could talk. It's got some history to it.
sycasey
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These kids might actually be making a difference.

B.A. Bearacus
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sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.
Starting to feel that...

sycasey
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B.A. Bearacus said:

sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.
Starting to feel that...


I have always felt this way, but it's now starting to become clear exactly why. The younger generations have far stronger civic instincts than the older ones.
okaydo
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Welp.
http://www.dailycal.org/2018/02/22/berkeley-school-board-cuts-safety-officer-positions-reach-target-1-8m-budget-cuts/
calbear93
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sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.


Good for them. Really. They are putting their words to action and are making personal sacrifice to better their situation and the world. Glad they put away their Facebook and didn't engage in a virtual political campaign in an echo chamber, thinking that liking something or preaching to the choir was going to change the world. They assembled, walked out, made the politicians and consumer product companies very uncomfortable without casing destruction or damage that would have detracted from the message. Very proud of them. Even if I may not agree with everything (I do agree with most), I applaud their bias for action.
golden sloth
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sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.

Let's hope they can keep the momentum going, and help them when possible. You know what's interesting, I remember reading an article about 5-10 years ago discussing how people from my generation (currently in their mid-30's) were not entering politics. The reason wasn't that they had no initiative to make change, but rather they thought change was best achieved through founding your own company or non-profit, instead of entering the cesspool of politics (basically helping or becoming the Elon Musk's of the world rather than the JFK's of the world). I wonder if that dynamic is starting to change.
sycasey
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golden sloth said:

sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.

Let's hope they can keep the momentum going, and help them when possible. You know what's interesting, I remember reading an article about 5-10 years ago discussing how people from my generation (currently in their mid-30's) were not entering politics. The reason wasn't that they had no initiative to make change, but rather they thought change was best achieved through founding your own company or non-profit, instead of entering the cesspool of politics (basically helping or becoming the Elon Musk's of the world rather than the JFK's of the world). I wonder if that dynamic is starting to change.


Strauss-Howe would say that this is a key difference between Gen-X and Millennial attitudes, entrepreneurialism vs public service. By their definition, mid-30s is right around the dividing line between those generations, though now I'm thinking Millennials might have started a bit later.
Another Bear
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If the kids from Parkland HS are indicative...the youth will be fine. They'll figure it out. In the meantime, help they out and send some of them to DC.


Go Fund Me: Send 50 Parkland Students to DC
B.A. Bearacus
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sycasey said:



I have always felt this way, but it's now starting to become clear exactly why. The younger generations have far stronger civic instincts than the older ones.

Hopefully, they don't whiff like Natalie Portman's generation:

B.A. Bearacus
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Because the NRA can't do nice things.

iwantwinners
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sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

Cal88 makes sense. 62% of gun deaths are suicides; 35% are homicides. The former is skewed older, white and male (and I would guess rural); the latter black, young and male and inner city. Both represent a society in despair and decline at the margins without social ties that bind, economic insecurity, depression, drug addiction and hopelessness, largely the result of decades of failed leadership and the debris of a dog eat dog ethos.


Suicide deaths also decrease when you take away the guns.

I agree that everything else there is a problem, but what studies exist suggest that if you want to save lives, get rid of the guns.

Gun violence is down as gun ownership rates are up.
Quote:


A couple of new studies reveal the gun-control hypesters' worst nightmaremore people are buying firearms, while firearm-related homicides and suicides are steadily diminishing. What crackpots came up with these conclusions? One set of statistics was compiled by the U.S. Department of Justice. The other was reported by the Pew Research Center.

According to DOJ's Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. gun-related homicides dropped 39 percent over the course of 18 years, from 18,253 during 1993, to 11,101 in 2011. During the same period, non-fatal firearm crimes decreased even more, a whopping 69 percent. The majority of those declines in both categories occurred during the first 10 years of that time frame. Firearm homicides declined from 1993 to 1999, rose through 2006, and then declined again through 2011. Non-fatal firearm violence declined from 1993 through 2004, then fluctuated in the mid-to-late 2000s.

And where did the bad people who did the shooting get most of their guns? Were those gun show "loopholes" responsible? Nope. According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source.


While firearm violence accounted for about 70 percent of all homicides between 1993 and 2011, guns were used in less than 10 percent of all non-fatal violent crimes. Between 70 percent and 80 percent of those firearm homicides involved a handgun, and 90 percent of non-fatal firearm victimizations were committed with a handgun. Males, blacks, and persons aged 18-24 had the highest firearm homicide rates.
Any other theories?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-gun-sales-soar-gun-crimes-plummet/#3d4295563f7c
Unit2Sucks
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iwantwinners said:


Gun violence is down as gun ownership rates are up.



O Rly? What would you say if it turned out gun ownership rates are at their lowest level in 40 years?
graguna
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golden sloth said:

sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.

Let's hope they can keep the momentum going, and help them when possible. You know what's interesting, I remember reading an article about 5-10 years ago discussing how people from my generation (currently in their mid-30's) were not entering politics. The reason wasn't that they had no initiative to make change, but rather they thought change was best achieved through founding your own company or non-profit, instead of entering the cesspool of politics (basically helping or becoming the Elon Musk's of the world rather than the JFK's of the world). I wonder if that dynamic is starting to change.
trump winning and destroying much of which many of us value has woken up a lot of people; the young especially. People of all ages are getting active politically. The midterms will be interesting. I think the republicans are going to get crusified
iwantwinners
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graguna said:

golden sloth said:

sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.

Let's hope they can keep the momentum going, and help them when possible. You know what's interesting, I remember reading an article about 5-10 years ago discussing how people from my generation (currently in their mid-30's) were not entering politics. The reason wasn't that they had no initiative to make change, but rather they thought change was best achieved through founding your own company or non-profit, instead of entering the cesspool of politics (basically helping or becoming the Elon Musk's of the world rather than the JFK's of the world). I wonder if that dynamic is starting to change.
trump winning and destroying much of which many of us value hasn't woken up a lot of people; the young especially. People of all ages are getting active politically. The midterms will be interesting. I think the republicans are going to get crusified

Like???? He hasn't done anything except pass a tax cut. He's accomplished next to NOTHING.

Trump supporters are still Trump supporters. Trump haters are still Trump haters. People are tribal like that with polarizing figures.

And modern day activism is for the most part self-affirming virtue signaling, with no clear goals or proposals, and it accomplishes next to nothing. Both sides.
sycasey
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Unit2Sucks said:

iwantwinners said:


Gun violence is down as gun ownership rates are up.



O Rly? What would you say if it turned out gun ownership rates are at their lowest level in 40 years?

Gun SALES were up during the Obama years (two guesses as to why). Gun OWNERSHIP is down. It's a small minority of people who were buying multiple guns.

Anyway, here's a handy article to help you dispel some of the nonsense arguments thrown out to discredit gun control.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/10/06/ten-lies-distort-the-gun-control-debate/#386d51a81fad

Quote:

Gun violence, defined as crimes committed with guns, has been declining for decades. That makes sense, since crime in general has been declining for decades. However, despite a lower crime rate, guns are now competing with automobile accidents for one of the leading causes of premature death in the US. When accidents and suicides are included in the statistics, gun deaths have been consistently rising while most other causes of death declined. And when gun deaths and injuries are compared to rates in other countries, it is hard to build a chart big enough to properly picture America's towering rates of slaughter.
iwantwinners
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Like taxes and coming up with a number that will end the begging, when mass shootings continue, along with epic murder rates in inner cities like Chicago after semi-autos are banned as a result of illegal weapons and non-auto weapons, which make up the majority of mass shootings and homicides generally, can you guarantee the country you will get off their d*ck clamoring for more?
B.A. Bearacus
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Brian Mast, a Republican representative of Florida's 18th congressional district

NYT Opinion: "I'm Republican. I Appreciate Assault Weapons. And I Support a Ban." Worth a read.
bearister
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1339028342799498&id=118868941482117&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl&_rdr
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Unit2Sucks
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Unit2Sucks said:

iwantwinners said:


Gun violence is down as gun ownership rates are up.



O Rly? What would you say if it turned out gun ownership rates are at their lowest level in 40 years?



How much time does iwantwinners need to fabricate a new answer? Maybe he needs a winner to do it for him.
iwantwinners
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Unit2Sucks said:

Unit2Sucks said:

iwantwinners said:


Gun violence is down as gun ownership rates are up.



O Rly? What would you say if it turned out gun ownership rates are at their lowest level in 40 years?



How much time does iwantwinners need to fabricate a new answer? Maybe he needs a winner to do it for him.
Do you mean side step offering a policy that is constructive and works?

Unlike the clear correlation between LE presence in a community and crime going down, that's not so much the case with guns. This is why the irony of minorities hating LE is so amusing to me: what they need most is more LE not less in order to survive and leave the ghettos.

When semi-autos don't stop violence or mass shootings, what is the anti-gun community's response. What is the goal at that point in further restricting the equalizing instrument between the weak and strong?
Unit2Sucks
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iwantwinners said:

What is the goal at that point in further restricting the equalizing instrument between the weak and strong?


This is the loser mentality that causes weak people to horde guns and shoot up schools and concerts. More guns does not equalize anything. I thought you wanted winners but it sounds like you want Kim Jong Un.
iwantwinners
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Unit2Sucks said:

iwantwinners said:

What is the goal at that point in further restricting the equalizing instrument between the weak and strong?


This is the loser mentality that causes weak people to horde guns and shoot up schools and concerts. More guns does not equalize anything. I thought you wanted winners but it sounds like you want Kim Jong Un.
Your post is a non sequitur, but I realize you're just trolling. These people aren't weak, they're deranged. That is the essence of the 2nd amendment beyond the resistance of government.

I guess tens and thousands of WOMEN are weak to own a firearm instead of a dog. You're trolling because it's convenient.

I love how you guys are so concerned about violence and firearms after a mass shooting, and will go on TV and hold town halls and such. More people die everyday in inner cities like Chicago -- where gun restrictions are the highest -- and they don't get an interview or anything. Glad you guys care.

It's gotten to the point that it's so obvious it's amusing.
graguna
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iwantwinners said:

graguna said:

golden sloth said:

sycasey said:

These kids might actually be making a difference.

Let's hope they can keep the momentum going, and help them when possible. You know what's interesting, I remember reading an article about 5-10 years ago discussing how people from my generation (currently in their mid-30's) were not entering politics. The reason wasn't that they had no initiative to make change, but rather they thought change was best achieved through founding your own company or non-profit, instead of entering the cesspool of politics (basically helping or becoming the Elon Musk's of the world rather than the JFK's of the world). I wonder if that dynamic is starting to change.
trump winning and destroying much of which many of us value hasn't woken up a lot of people; the young especially. People of all ages are getting active politically. The midterms will be interesting. I think the republicans are going to get crusified

Like???? He hasn't done anything except pass a tax cut. He's accomplished next to NOTHING.

Trump supporters are still Trump supporters. Trump haters are still Trump haters. People are tribal like that with polarizing figures.

And modern day activism is for the most part self-affirming virtue signaling, with no clear goals or proposals, and it accomplishes next to nothing. Both sides.
modern day activism worked OK for the tea party.

regarding trump's destruction:
unprotecting parklands
trying to take away health care from millions of people
banning people from other countries
threatening lgbt rights
supporting ( or at least not denouncing ) white supremacists and other hate groups
assaulting women
I could go on and on but I have to make my boys breakfast

if the young and women dont break historically heavily for democrats in the midterms, you can throw this post in my face. If they do, buy me a beer
Unit2Sucks
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iwantwinners said:



It's gotten to the point that it's so obvious it's amusing.


And yet you still haven't addressed my original response to you. You said gun violence was down as gun ownership was up. So what was your point again?
Anarchistbear
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Gun related deaths are trending up...

Drug overdoses up..

Mortality of 45-64 year old men is at alarming levels

Suicide are at a 30 year high

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.amp.html
AunBear89
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I'll go ahead and save all the slobbering Reich Wing friends the trouble:

"Sounds like we need more guns! Benghazi! Emails! Thanks Obama! Libruls!" grrrgle splutter.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
sycasey
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Whenever I hear the "Chicago" argument I know the person making it has not seriously examined the issue. This was also covered in the article I linked to.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/10/06/ten-lies-distort-the-gun-control-debate/#1d1c06691fad

Quote:

Chicago's seemingly intractable problem with gun violence is one of America's fondest fascinations. It's also a myth. Chicago has more gun murders than other large cities like New York and Los Angeles, thanks mostly to its long, unsecured border with North Alabamastan (sometimes called Indiana). However, Chicago's murder rate still lags far behind the nation's leaders, many of which are in red states with loose gun restrictions.

America's capital of gun violence is in deep-red Louisiana. New Orleans suffers from four times the rate of gun murders as Chicago. Such terrifying urban hellscapes as Kansas City, Memphis and Atlanta all rack up much higher rates of gun violence than Chicago. Expand the inquiry beyond crime, to include accidental gun deaths and suicide, and Chicago simply recedes from the frame. The obvious conclusion also happens to be an empirical fact: states with high levels of gun ownership have higher levels of gun death.

With its supposedly restrictive gun regulations, why should Chicago even show up on the list? Only through a determination to avoid the obvious can one struggle with this question.

A Chicagoan can walk across a street into Indiana and purchase firearms from an unlicensed seller with no tracking of that transaction. That person can then walk back across the street into Chicago and commit a crime. This is a common practice. Most of the guns used in a crime in Chicago are originally purchased in Indiana or Mississippi. And of course, Indiana's rate of gun deaths is roughly a third higher than in Illinois.

In a strictly technical sense, most of those untracked transactions are illegal. However, our gun laws have been crafted to make enforcement virtually impossible, a fine introduction to the next lie.

I do not think it's an accident that this "Chicago" canard got started among conservatives when there was a black Democrat as President who started his political career in . . . Chicago. It's a dog whistle, not a serious argument.
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