dajo9 said:

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I agree with this. At some point Congress has to defend the Constitution against Executive lawlessness. This is that point.

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The problem is that you are making a grand gesture for optics that will not work (the Senate will never convict) and will cause some independent voters to vote Republican (impeachment only has support in the mid-30's), thus this Grand Gesture to defend Democracy is more likely to result in the Person undermining that Democracy becoming re-elected than in him being removed. So what's the point of making this gesture if its more likely to have the opposite effect, and what is best for the Democracy?

One thread on this:

sycasey said:

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One thread on this:

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All the guys on podsaveamerica are all pretty sharp, including pfeiffer

golden sloth said:

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dajo9 said:

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I agree with this. At some point Congress has to defend the Constitution against Executive lawlessness. This is that point.

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The problem is that you are making a grand gesture for optics that will not work (the Senate will never convict) and will cause some independent voters to vote Republican (impeachment only has support in the mid-30's), thus this Grand Gesture to defend Democracy is more likely to result in the Person undermining that Democracy becoming re-elected than in him being removed. So what's the point of making this gesture if its more likely to have the opposite effect, and what is best for the Democracy?

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I think this is a valid point but I can only hold myself accountable for my actions. Other people's failings are not my responsibility.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/the-mueller-report-voters-reactions.html#click=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FBR6ODCZtzR

David French in National Review:

And yet another one from National Review:

"Another Warning Sign" by YUVAL LEVIN
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-warning-sign-2/

"As Mueller's report demonstrates, the willingness of his subordinates to be insubordinate has generally served Trump well, because his own judgement is often so shockingly bad that almost anyone else's judgment (including that of some very shady characters) would be better. That willingness to ignore or contradict the president seems to have averted some criminal acts that might have endangered his presidency. And it has likely saved us from other dark fates."

@qjurecic, Managing Editor Lawfare Blog:

Boy, listening to Trump, Sanders, and Kellyanne clips from the past 24 hours providing their SOUND BITES proclaiming Trump so wonderful.

I guess they figure that most people are stupid and don't know what to think, so they'll tell them.
And guess what? It works!

Mankind is a joke sometimes.

B.A. Bearacus said:

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This is a big plus for Elizabeth Warren in my view

B.A. Bearacus said:

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David French in National Review:

And yet another one from National Review:

"Another Warning Sign" by YUVAL LEVIN
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-warning-sign-2/

"As Mueller's report demonstrates, the willingness of his subordinates to be insubordinate has generally served Trump well, because his own judgement is often so shockingly bad that almost anyone else's judgment (including that of some very shady characters) would be better. That willingness to ignore or contradict the president seems to have averted some criminal acts that might have endangered his presidency. And it has likely saved us from other dark fates."

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Thanks for these links.
They tied in nicely with a conversation I've been having with a family member.
Republicans need to be willing to see things as they truly are. But if they all blind themselves in unison....

dajo9 said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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This is a big plus for Elizabeth Warren in my view

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I do not want the House to be political and calculated in their approach to impeachment, just do what the report and Constitution mandates: action.

That said, I do think that waiting just a few weeks to get un-redacted version, interview Mueller & Barr, perhaps interview other witnesses too, and give Trump a chance to testify himself (he won't) is prudent and is a logical first step in the process.

I also can't help but wonder if an unspoken concern is Trump resigns and Pence pardons OR Trump removed from office and Pence pardons. I do think that contingencies based on Trump not escaping punishment is also a responsibility of this Congress.

I can see the GOP making the calculation that Trump is toast, they approach Trump via Barr and work out an immunity deal where he steps down, Trump accepts because he wants to protect kids and thinks his reputation takes less of a hit if he controls when he leaves (imagines he can still have viable business if he can positions his resignation as a Deep State coup and the Dems corrupt government forcing him out=he is victim), and then Pence steps in as the holy one there to clean up the mess and forgive Trump like Jesus and they throw everything at his re-election. That would be disgusting.

I will be furious if Trump dodges punishment and is able to strike a deal where he is not prosecuted on his financial crimes (in addition to his conspiracy and obstruction). He and his family need consequence for the good of justice and the country's future. And that goes for the dirty administrative, cabinet, Congressional members, media allies (Hannity!), Trump org, and family. The entire lot get shame and financial ruin and penalties/jail and NO CUSHY CORPORATE SOFT LANDINGS. They don't get to parlay this to conservative media personas or speaking engagements or positions on boards. There has to be a total stigma to all these liars and cooperators where they are poison for any organization.

blungld said:

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dajo9 said:

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B.A. Bearacus said:

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This is a big plus for Elizabeth Warren in my view

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I do not want the House to be political and calculated in their approach to impeachment, just do what the report and Constitution mandates: action.

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Neither do I, but like the Republicans when Obama was president, all they're thinking about is the next presidential election and how to position themselves for it. And frankly, some of them probably have skeletons in their closet they don't want coming out and are hoping for quid pro quo in case one of their people ever get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

The eagle just took a massive dump and is in the air again...looking to grab a big fat orange pig by the balls and fling it in a volcano.

I'm afraid Mueller is destined to be a perpetual heartbreaker.

bearister said:

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I'm afraid Mueller is destined to be a perpetual heartbreaker.

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Just don't get your hopes up too high. Otherwise, yeah:

....but if the Republicans that cross examine Mueller disrespect him, he could go all out combat Marine psycho and start offering up some interesting facts.

bearister said:

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....but if the Republicans that cross examine Mueller disrespect him, he could go all out combat Marine psycho and start offering up some interesting facts.

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You keep hoping the institutionalist will bring down the institution.

Thus far, this Congress has been a huge disappointment. Scared, like Democrats have always been scared since Ronald Reagan. Hopefully the next generation does better.

No, I'm a realist. tRump will win in 2020, make hundreds of millions for himself and the Crime Family as a result of being POTUS, and die in his bed at 95 with a Big Mac and a massage therapist.....but I'm all for anything that causes him stress, which includes Mueller throwing a few darts if he feels demeaned during questioning by mediocre men.

bearister said:

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No, I'm a realist. tRump will win in 2020, make hundreds of millions for himself and the Crime Family as a result of being POTUS, and die in his bed at 95 with a Big Mac and a massage therapist.....but I'm all for anything that causes him stress, which includes Mueller throwing a few darts if he feels demeaned during questioning by mediocre men.

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This is so depressing - Trump winning in 2020 will destroy America. People under 30 might need to move abroad.

Cal Junkie said:

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bearister said:

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No, I'm a realist. tRump will win in 2020, make hundreds of millions for himself and the Crime Family as a result of being POTUS, and die in his bed at 95 with a Big Mac and a massage therapist.....but I'm all for anything that causes him stress, which includes Mueller throwing a few darts if he feels demeaned during questioning by mediocre men.

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This is so depressing - Trump winning in 2020 will destroy America. People under 30 might need to move abroad.

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I don't want to depress you. Perhaps someone here can make a case for the proposition that Uncle Joe is not the only Democratic candidate in the field that has a reasonable chance to prevail in the Presidential Election in the states of Arizona, Wisconsin, North Carolina and Florida. A solid argument on that issue could lift a dark cloud from my psyche.

bearister said:

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Cal Junkie said:

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bearister said:

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No, I'm a realist. tRump will win in 2020, make hundreds of millions for himself and the Crime Family as a result of being POTUS, and die in his bed at 95 with a Big Mac and a massage therapist.....but I'm all for anything that causes him stress, which includes Mueller throwing a few darts if he feels demeaned during questioning by mediocre men.

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This is so depressing - Trump winning in 2020 will destroy America. People under 30 might need to move abroad.

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I don't want to depress you. Perhaps someone here can make a case for the proposition that Uncle Joe is not the only Democratic candidate in the field that has a reasonable chance to prevail in the Presidential Election in the states of Arizona, Wisconsin, North Carolina and Florida. A solid argument on that issue could lift a dark cloud from my psyche.

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Current polls show Trump losing to basically all of the Democratic frontrunners, not just Biden. And Biden has way more name-recognition than just about everyone except maybe Bernie.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/pres_general/

National polling is irrelevant because we don't live in a democracy.. State polling shows many of the Democrats to be neck-and-neck with Trump.

Mueller as an institutionalist gives Trump cover because institutions are there to protect those in power...but also because Trump is willing to play that hand like an a-hole, and go there. No other POTUS in modern times has ever been so ignorant and uneducated that he doesn't understand how the office works...so of course he abuses it like a mobster. He doesn't fully understand it, figures it's for his benefit not a service position.

By going by the book, Mueller has allowed Trump to skirt by. Sad but that's the limitations of "by the book" leadership - there's no "by the book" method to deal with craziness and chaos and that's exactly the problem.

There are no rules with Trump, a silver spoon turdball who is functionally illiterate clown with a propensity for mob boss behavior, and raised in a KKK household.

Moderate or corporate Democrats (Chuck Schumer, that's you) had their balls cut off years ago, once they figured on compromising on everything, while getting little in return. Splitting loyalties between corporations and power brokers and the average citizen's needs just doesn't work, because you're compromised.

I hold some small hope something breaks but the system is working the way it was intended by the powers that be. However at this point, hoping for Mueller to say anything more is futile...so America, get ready to EAT A GIANT SH*T SANDWICH.

Another Bear said:

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Mueller as an institutionalist gives Trump cover because institutions are there to protect those in power...but also because Trump is willing to play that hand like an a-hole, and go there. No other POTUS in modern times has ever been so ignorant and uneducated that he doesn't understand how the office works...so of course he abuses it like a mobster. He doesn't fully understand it, figures it's for his benefit not a service position.

By going by the book, Mueller has allowed Trump to skirt by. Sad but that's the limitations of "by the book" leadership - there's no "by the book" method to deal with craziness and chaos and that's exactly the problem.

There are no rules with Trump, a silver spoon turdball who is functionally illiterate clown with a propensity for mob boss behavior, and raised in a KKK household.

Moderate or corporate Democrats (Chuck Schumer, that's you) had their balls cut off years ago, once they figured on compromising on everything, while getting little in return. Splitting loyalties between corporations and power brokers and the average citizen's needs just doesn't work, because you're compromised.

I hold some small hope something breaks but the system is working the way it was intended by the powers that be. However at this point, hoping for Mueller to say anything more is futile...so America, get ready to EAT A GIANT SH*T SANDWICH.

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Edit. People under 50 might need to move abroad.

dajo9 said:

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National polling is irrelevant because we don't live in a democracy.. State polling shows many of the Democrats to be neck-and-neck with Trump.

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My link also includes state polls.

Cal Junkie said:

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Edit. People under 50 might need to move abroad.

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???

Another Bear said:

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Cal Junkie said:

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Edit. People under 50 might need to move abroad.

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???

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My previous post indicated people under 30 might want to move abroad. I raised the ante.

Cal Junkie said:

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Another Bear said:

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Cal Junkie said:

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Edit. People under 50 might need to move abroad.

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???

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My previous post indicated people under 30 might want to move abroad. I raised the ante.

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May want to retire on a nice Caribbean Island, Europe, or South America, until his term runs its' course.

How about the DR?

Cal Junkie said:

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Another Bear said:

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Cal Junkie said:

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Edit. People under 50 might need to move abroad.

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???

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My previous post indicated people under 30 might want to move abroad. I raised the ante.

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I'm over 50 and I think about it. Hawaii would be far enough..3 hours ahead, away from the main news cycle timing. In any case, I agree...but the age might be anyone under 65...or over.

The Mueller Report hasn't accomplished diddle squat.
Trump can do pretty much anything, as the Republican Party is unwilling to challenge him on anything.
America sucks. And we are going to learn how much tomorrow..