Unit2Sucks said:

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DiabloWags said:

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LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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freshfunk said:

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I've wondered about the long term viability of viewership for UCLA and USC in a similar vein. If they go off to the Big 10 and there's a loss of the traditional rivalries with the California schools and no longer having those Pac-12 matchups, what does that do to fandom? I know teams like USC drew fans who didn't even go to the school because LA didn't have an NFL team for many years. But I wonder what it looks like now with SC underperforming and the Rams being an exciting team to watch. Similarly UCLA hasn't been particularly exciting in recent history and there's another pro team in the Chargers.

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I think novelty will be interesting for them. And then when they see how mediocre those teams typically are it will be like playing any random team. Without the history and proximity, how often would they be interesting to Cal fans? I'm not sure. Oregon is a draw because they are good. Before they were good, they were just another team.

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I don't think this is true at all. A lot of kids from California go to the Oregon schools which is a big driver of rivalries. That's been true since at least the 90's and Cal Oregon games have been for at least that long. Same is true of the Arizona and Washington schools. But like UCLA playing Purdue? Snoozefest.

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You might know better, but I always thought the obsession with going to Oregon was casual with Nikes infusion into athletics.

I don't remember kids having Oregon at the top of their list before that, but I also am a little young to have a solid memory of the application distribution before that inflection.

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Im not sure where you are located, but UNIT2 is right about this. You'd be surprised by how many high school females in the Lamorinda and Danville/San Ramon suburbs of the TriValley have headed to Oregon over the past two decades. And it really had very little to do with Nike or D1 athletics.

As so often is the case, high school girls want to get away from Mom and Dad and feel a sense of independence. Hence, they'll head out of state first chance, if they and their parents can swing it financially.

The guys?
They couldnt care any less.
If they live closer to home, it means that Mom can still do their laundry once a week.

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Good friend of mine was a Berkeley kid and son of a professor. He ended up at ASU and said there were a lot of California kids there).

I think there are a combination of reasons that this is happening including how difficult it's been to get into UCs and also a decent amount of xenophobia (eg white people who don't want to go to majority minority schools). That was a common lament decades ago and I would be surprised if it's changed. It never bothered me at Cal but my parents were immigrants so maybe the xenophobes were trying to get away from me too!

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Afraid to compete?

Larry Scott's tenure as the Pac-12 Commissioner was a mess. He looked out for himself, not the conference. The Pac-12 presidents on duty at the time enabled him.

“Be clear,” a sitting Pac-12 AD told me, “Larry put us on the path here.”

Column: https://t.co/dSMRMUqHyl pic.twitter.com/NVo64JQh1h

— John Canzano (@johncanzanobft) July 2, 2022

Notre Dame will presumably make a decision in the coming days and either join the Big Ten or remain independent.

Meanwhile, the programs at Arizona, Arizona State, Utah and Colorado are a threat to be poached by the Big 12. That conference would like nothing more than to see the Pac-12 disintegrate, and then, pick through the wreckage.

The SEC and Big Ten have cemented themselves as the two "super conferences." There's a public battle looming between the Pac-12 and Big 12 to see which ends up as the No. 3 league.

"One of us will have to be destroyed to get there," said the AD I spoke with.

If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

movielover said:

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If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

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LOL european culture and traditions. People don't go to Boulder, Eugene, Tempe or Tucson for european culture. They sure as hell don't go to the Palouse for that (although the cheese is great).

You can call it what you want but I've heard plenty of white people say they didn't want to be a minority. Telegraph has been dirty for a long time and doesn't really seem any worse to me now. I would be surprised if I'm the only person that has this understanding.

I guess I will use this opportunity to give one of my favorite anecdotes on this point. Friend from SD and I walk into a party at Cal. He says to me "dude, we are the only white people here." My friend is south asian (but grew up in SD and considers himself culturally white). I look at him with a "duh" look and he turns back to me and says "dude you're the only white person at this party". We still had a great time there.

How about a slightly different take.

Would Cal fans tune in if the P12 looked like this after 2024:

North Div

Oregon
Oregon State
Stanford
Wazzu
Cal
Fresno State (keep in mind Jeffy is head coach)
UC Davis - add another UC, and add the Sacramento market. The Aggies are around 40,000 students now, have Dan Hawkins as HC, and are now completing a $35 M high performance facility.

South

ASU
UA
Utah
Colorado
San Diego State (Aztecs have a brand new stadium and are now the only D1 football team in South)

Assuming here UW bolts.

BigDaddy said:

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Meanwhile, the programs at Arizona, Arizona State, Utah and Colorado are a threat to be poached by the Big 12. That conference would like nothing more than to see the Pac-12 disintegrate, and then, pick through the wreckage.

The SEC and Big Ten have cemented themselves as the two "super conferences." There's a public battle looming between the Pac-12 and Big 12 to see which ends up as the No. 3 league.

"One of us will have to be destroyed to get there," said the AD I spoke with.

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Canzano is obviously writing from a pro-Oregon point of view.

But if his speculation about the Pac-12 and Big 12 is right, and the Big 12 is trying to swipe some or all of the mountain schools, then the Pac would have to counter that by trying to get (for example) BYU, Kansas, TCU, and Houston from the Big 12. Even if those teams don't significantly help the Pac any more than, say, San Diego State would, the fight-fire-with-fire approach might be necessary.

Of course, if any more Pac universities get Big Ten invitations, it's a moot point.

Unit2Sucks said:

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movielover said:

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If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

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LOL european culture and traditions. People don't go to Boulder, Eugene, Tempe or Tucson for european culture. They sure as hell don't go to the Palouse for that (although the cheese is great).

You can call it what you want but I've heard plenty of white people say they didn't want to be a minority. Telegraph has been dirty for a long time and doesn't really seem any worse to me now. I would be surprised if I'm the only person that has this understanding.

I guess I will use this opportunity to give one of my favorite anecdotes on this point. Friend from SD and I walk into a party at Cal. He says to me "dude, we are the only white people here." My friend is south asian (but grew up in SD and considers himself culturally white). I look at him with a "duh" look and he turns back to me and says "dude you're the only white person at this party". We still had a great time there.

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Hilarious.. THIS is why I love this site.

movielover said:

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How about a slightly different take.

Would Cal fans tune in if the P12 looked like this after 2024:

North Div

Oregon
Oregon State
Stanford
Wazzu
Cal
Fresno State (keep in mind Jeffy is head coach)
UC Davis - add another UC, and add the Sacramento market. The Aggies are around 40,000 students now, have Dan Hawkins as HC, and are now completing a $35 M high performance facility.

South

ASU
UA
Utah
Colorado
San Diego State (Aztecs have a brand new stadium and are now the only D1 football team in South)

Assuming here UW bolts.

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Has anyone looked at the economics of the mid-major sports programs?

movielover said:

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If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

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So "innocent college experience" equals "European culture and traditions?"

I mean that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Honest question though. If that's your attitude, why did you even go to Berkeley?

For me, it's because I could eat Ethiopian food one day and Himalayan food the next. It's so I could meet people from all different cultures and backgrounds. It's so I could surround myself with the best and the brightest.

If eating a burger with Steve and joe is more your bag, godbless.

movielover said:

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If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

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Are you part of the Rossmoor Gated Community Bloods?

Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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freshfunk said:

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I've wondered about the long term viability of viewership for UCLA and USC in a similar vein. If they go off to the Big 10 and there's a loss of the traditional rivalries with the California schools and no longer having those Pac-12 matchups, what does that do to fandom? I know teams like USC drew fans who didn't even go to the school because LA didn't have an NFL team for many years. But I wonder what it looks like now with SC underperforming and the Rams being an exciting team to watch. Similarly UCLA hasn't been particularly exciting in recent history and there's another pro team in the Chargers.

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I think novelty will be interesting for them. And then when they see how mediocre those teams typically are it will be like playing any random team. Without the history and proximity, how often would they be interesting to Cal fans? I'm not sure. Oregon is a draw because they are good. Before they were good, they were just another team.

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I don't think this is true at all. A lot of kids from California go to the Oregon schools which is a big driver of rivalries. That's been true since at least the 90's and Cal Oregon games have been for at least that long. Same is true of the Arizona and Washington schools. But like UCLA playing Purdue? Snoozefest.

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You might know better, but I always thought the obsession with going to Oregon was casual with Nikes infusion into athletics.

I don't remember kids having Oregon at the top of their list before that, but I also am a little young to have a solid memory of the application distribution before that inflection.

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I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the students. Thousands of Oregon students are from California and have friends at Cal. There is a lot of this at all of the PAC schools due to proximity and far less overlap with the B1G schools.

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I was also talking about students.

There are a lot of studies pointing to football success and application rates. Hell, Northwestern had a big applicant year after their rose bowl loss, and no one there cares about football.

LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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freshfunk said:

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I've wondered about the long term viability of viewership for UCLA and USC in a similar vein. If they go off to the Big 10 and there's a loss of the traditional rivalries with the California schools and no longer having those Pac-12 matchups, what does that do to fandom? I know teams like USC drew fans who didn't even go to the school because LA didn't have an NFL team for many years. But I wonder what it looks like now with SC underperforming and the Rams being an exciting team to watch. Similarly UCLA hasn't been particularly exciting in recent history and there's another pro team in the Chargers.

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I think novelty will be interesting for them. And then when they see how mediocre those teams typically are it will be like playing any random team. Without the history and proximity, how often would they be interesting to Cal fans? I'm not sure. Oregon is a draw because they are good. Before they were good, they were just another team.

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I don't think this is true at all. A lot of kids from California go to the Oregon schools which is a big driver of rivalries. That's been true since at least the 90's and Cal Oregon games have been for at least that long. Same is true of the Arizona and Washington schools. But like UCLA playing Purdue? Snoozefest.

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You might know better, but I always thought the obsession with going to Oregon was casual with Nikes infusion into athletics.

I don't remember kids having Oregon at the top of their list before that, but I also am a little young to have a solid memory of the application distribution before that inflection.

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I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the students. Thousands of Oregon students are from California and have friends at Cal. There is a lot of this at all of the PAC schools due to proximity and far less overlap with the B1G schools.

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I was also talking about students.

There are a lot of studies pointing to football success and application rates. Hell, Northwestern had a big applicant year after their rose bowl loss, and no one there cares about football.

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This is most likely accurate. I know tons of lamorinda kids who wanted the "pac12" experience (big school, football, basketball, etc) but couldn't get into cal/ucla so opted for Oregon/Arizona instead

LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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freshfunk said:

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I've wondered about the long term viability of viewership for UCLA and USC in a similar vein. If they go off to the Big 10 and there's a loss of the traditional rivalries with the California schools and no longer having those Pac-12 matchups, what does that do to fandom? I know teams like USC drew fans who didn't even go to the school because LA didn't have an NFL team for many years. But I wonder what it looks like now with SC underperforming and the Rams being an exciting team to watch. Similarly UCLA hasn't been particularly exciting in recent history and there's another pro team in the Chargers.

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I think novelty will be interesting for them. And then when they see how mediocre those teams typically are it will be like playing any random team. Without the history and proximity, how often would they be interesting to Cal fans? I'm not sure. Oregon is a draw because they are good. Before they were good, they were just another team.

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I don't think this is true at all. A lot of kids from California go to the Oregon schools which is a big driver of rivalries. That's been true since at least the 90's and Cal Oregon games have been for at least that long. Same is true of the Arizona and Washington schools. But like UCLA playing Purdue? Snoozefest.

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You might know better, but I always thought the obsession with going to Oregon was casual with Nikes infusion into athletics.

I don't remember kids having Oregon at the top of their list before that, but I also am a little young to have a solid memory of the application distribution before that inflection.

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I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the students. Thousands of Oregon students are from California and have friends at Cal. There is a lot of this at all of the PAC schools due to proximity and far less overlap with the B1G schools.

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I was also talking about students.

There are a lot of studies pointing to football success and application rates. Hell, Northwestern had a big applicant year after their rose bowl loss, and no one there cares about football.

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UCLA had another relatively uneventful football season and just broke the record for most applicants. i do hear you on this as well. It's definitely a combination of factors and Oregon's sports success is part of it but it's not just about Oregon. All of the Pac 12 schools have large California student populations. We're a big state so it's understandable that we end up sending kids to a lot of adjacent states.

KenBurnski said:

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movielover said:

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If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

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Are you part of the Rossmoor Gated Community Bloods?

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I was being charitable by not pointing out how white supremacist adjacent his post was.

DiabloWags said:

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LunchTime said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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LunchTime said:

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freshfunk said:

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I've wondered about the long term viability of viewership for UCLA and USC in a similar vein. If they go off to the Big 10 and there's a loss of the traditional rivalries with the California schools and no longer having those Pac-12 matchups, what does that do to fandom? I know teams like USC drew fans who didn't even go to the school because LA didn't have an NFL team for many years. But I wonder what it looks like now with SC underperforming and the Rams being an exciting team to watch. Similarly UCLA hasn't been particularly exciting in recent history and there's another pro team in the Chargers.

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I think novelty will be interesting for them. And then when they see how mediocre those teams typically are it will be like playing any random team. Without the history and proximity, how often would they be interesting to Cal fans? I'm not sure. Oregon is a draw because they are good. Before they were good, they were just another team.

---

I don't think this is true at all. A lot of kids from California go to the Oregon schools which is a big driver of rivalries. That's been true since at least the 90's and Cal Oregon games have been for at least that long. Same is true of the Arizona and Washington schools. But like UCLA playing Purdue? Snoozefest.

---

You might know better, but I always thought the obsession with going to Oregon was casual with Nikes infusion into athletics.

I don't remember kids having Oregon at the top of their list before that, but I also am a little young to have a solid memory of the application distribution before that inflection.

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Im not sure where you are located, but UNIT2 is right about this. You'd be surprised by how many high school females in the Lamorinda and Danville/San Ramon suburbs of the TriValley have headed to Oregon over the past two decades. And it really had very little to do with Nike or D1 athletics.

As so often is the case, high school girls want to get away from Mom and Dad and feel a sense of independence. Hence, they'll head out of state first chance, if they and their parents can swing it financially.

The guys?
They couldnt care any less.
If they live closer to home, it means that Mom can still do their laundry once a week.

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Quote:

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headed to Oregon over the past two decades.

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Exactly what I am saying. This is a branding shift. Oregon's unique differentiator is their athletic brand. Thousands of better schools exist far away from mom and dad.

Big Dog said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Just an FYI about Cal cutting Sports.

Currently, Cal does not comply with Title IX from a strict numbers sense.. The only reason they are deemed to be in compliance is because the surveys taken by the undergrad female population shows that "they" believe that Cal continues to "strive" towards compliance by offering sports and recreational facilities to Cal Women.

For the people that flippantly think that Women's LAX would be the first to get cut, think again.

Once a School cuts a women's sport, they must comply on a strict male/female ratio of representation in Athletics. And that's not good for men's sports.

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Since I was the one who mentioned Lax it was not an idle thought. If the Pac dies, and Cal continues football as a mid-major, Cal will no longer be able to afford to support 30 sports. The TV money will not be there. No question men's teams will have to be cut, but once we go down that path, might as well right size (using the appropriate T9 prong) and cut some expensive(?), non-diverse(?) women's sports, too. This aint' rocket science, which any Haas Finance major could figure out.

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We'd have to cut most mens sports before we could go after a women's sport.

It's just numbers.

Unit2Sucks said:

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movielover said:

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If you're gonna go down that road, how about the more innocent explanation - they enjoy European culture and traditions, and when they pay 20k a year they prefer that most TAs speak understandable English. Not to mention that California is now dirty, last time I was on Telegraph it wasn't appealing (it had gone too far), and the overall crime, filth, and America-is-bad attitude really harshes the buzz on what many seek ... a more innocent college experience.

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LOL european culture and traditions. People don't go to Boulder, Eugene, Tempe or Tucson for european culture. They sure as hell don't go to the Palouse for that (although the cheese is great).

You can call it what you want but I've heard plenty of white people say they didn't want to be a minority. Telegraph has been dirty for a long time and doesn't really seem any worse to me now. I would be surprised if I'm the only person that has this understanding.

I guess I will use this opportunity to give one of my favorite anecdotes on this point. Friend from SD and I walk into a party at Cal. He says to me "dude, we are the only white people here." My friend is south asian (but grew up in SD and considers himself culturally white). I look at him with a "duh" look and he turns back to me and says "dude you're the only white person at this party". We still had a great time there.

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I see we're in the shallow end of the pool. You note your own Asian friend being culturally white.

For decades various minority groups have chosen urban and other campuses partly for cultural / ethnic reasons. The easiest examples are nearly 100% historically black colleges and universities.

I have likewise heard many Asian students over the years say they prioritized UCLA and Cal bc of the large Asian student demographics.

I see you're part of the younger demographic playing the white supremascist jargon. Last time I was on Telegraph it was different than 1985.

The idea that girls from the suburbs go to Oregon to get away from Mom and Dad has never surfaced in my circles. Competition and cost have been frequent topics. With the skyrocketing cost of a UC education along with impacted classes (5 yrs to graduate) and housing, going out of state became a realistic option. When I was in HS, they advised students to apply to 3 colleges. Many today apply to 8, 10, or more, so they cast a wide net. Some kids also like to ski, or river raft. A local kid recently chose a southwestern school, and with comparative real estate prices so cheap, the parents bought their child a townhouse.

Big Dog said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Just an FYI about Cal cutting Sports.

Currently, Cal does not comply with Title IX from a strict numbers sense.. The only reason they are deemed to be in compliance is because the surveys taken by the undergrad female population shows that "they" believe that Cal continues to "strive" towards compliance by offering sports and recreational facilities to Cal Women.

For the people that flippantly think that Women's LAX would be the first to get cut, think again.

Once a School cuts a women's sport, they must comply on a strict male/female ratio of representation in Athletics. And that's not good for men's sports.

---

Since I was the one who mentioned Lax it was not an idle thought. If the Pac dies, and Cal continues football as a mid-major, Cal will no longer be able to afford to support 30 sports. The TV money will not be there. No question men's teams will have to be cut, but once we go down that path, might as well right size (using the appropriate T9 prong) and cut some expensive(?), non-diverse(?) women's sports, too. This aint' rocket science, which any Haas Finance major could figure out.

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Cal has 28 sports.
13 for Men and 15 for Women.

I'm a Haas finance major, but I'm not so naive to think that I know what the exact ratio of men's to women's athletes that rosters need to see in order to strictly comply with Title IX. Over the last several years, there have already been roster cuts to teams in order to address budget concerns because the Chancellor has gotten tired of "papering" over the athletic department deficit every year by writing a check to cover it.

What I do know is that Baseball would be the first to get cut.
It's the most expensive operating sport that there is given the roster size, schedule, and travel.
And that's why Sandy Barbour targeted it right off the "bat" back in 2010.

I also know that teams that have had a track record of raising money from well-heeled donors will survive.
We're talking Rugby, Crew, Water Polo, and Swimming.
These teams have a legacy donor network.

For this reason, I dont think that my favorite sport of Track & Field has a chance.
The donors are literally non-existent, and Jennifer Maxwell (her late husband was Brian Maxwell of Powerbar fame and a former Cal XC runner) has largely ignored the program due to personal politics. What also puts the program on the chopping block is the fact that it's never been a winning program and the last time it did anything at the NCAA level was back in 2007 when all the stars were aligned and the Women's Program finished in the Top 10 in the nation.

Edward's Stadium also sits on a very expensive piece of real estate that probably should have been "downsized" decades ago, with a much more value-added footprint that could have served the school better. The same case could be made for Evans Field.

Sadly, this is the road that I see Cal Intercollegiate Athletics on.
But I think it's very much reality for a Cal IAD that has continually tried to be all things to all people.
We just cant afford that anymore.

Sycasey wrote: "Sure, realignment had happened a lot recently. There was at least some level of logic to Texas being in the SEC, as they are a neighboring state. But two Los Angeles schools joining a Midwestern conference? It's so obviously absurd and only about money. And it kills the things that made college football unique: the traditions, long histories, and rivalries that came from regional conferences. Without those it's just a worse version of the NFL."

We were losing college football as we knew it anyway. It started with BCS, and at Cal moved forward with the interior design of CMS further separating the fans from the team/field, Cal marketing dept.'s whoring of the game day experience to commercials, 3 year old bear growls and piped in _______, then NIL, and now this.

We were already a worse version of the NFL due to the factors I named (above). But it's your second to last sentence that hurts the most. Attending the more pure, amateurish game of college football was passed down from parents to kids from generation to generation. Traditions mean something. History means something. They are both important in sports, and in life. And rivalries are part of both tradition and history. As with our country, it seems that history and tradition don't mean anything anymore either. $C and UC(la)'s secession is further erosion of both. It is very sad. And in time, both in sports and in our national life, the loss of tradition and history will be proven to be very bad.

And I didn't even address the issue of doing the honorable thing.........

TomBear said:

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Sycasey wrote: "Sure, realignment had happened a lot recently. There was at least some level of logic to Texas being in the SEC, as they are a neighboring state. But two Los Angeles schools joining a Midwestern conference? It's so obviously absurd and only about money. And it kills the things that made college football unique: the traditions, long histories, and rivalries that came from regional conferences. Without those it's just a worse version of the NFL."

We were losing college football as we knew it anyway. It started with BCS, and at Cal moved forward with the interior design of CMS further separating the fans from the team/field, Cal marketing dept.'s whoring of the game day experience to commercials, 3 year old bear growls and piped in _______, then NIL, and now this.

We were already a worse version of the NFL due to the factors I named (above). But it's your second to last sentence that hurts the most. Attending the more pure, amateurish game of college football was passed down from parents to kids from generation to generation. Traditions mean something. History means something. They are both important in sports, and in life. And rivalries are part of both tradition and history. As with our country, it seems that history and tradition don't mean anything anymore either. It is very sad. And in time it will be proven to be very bad.

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I don't think there was any stopping it, but I agree with you that in time it will be very bad. There is already a very popular professional football league in America -- I think in time this will marginalize college football to the south and pockets of the midwest.

maxer said:

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TomBear said:

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Sycasey wrote: "Sure, realignment had happened a lot recently. There was at least some level of logic to Texas being in the SEC, as they are a neighboring state. But two Los Angeles schools joining a Midwestern conference? It's so obviously absurd and only about money. And it kills the things that made college football unique: the traditions, long histories, and rivalries that came from regional conferences. Without those it's just a worse version of the NFL."

We were losing college football as we knew it anyway. It started with BCS, and at Cal moved forward with the interior design of CMS further separating the fans from the team/field, Cal marketing dept.'s whoring of the game day experience to commercials, 3 year old bear growls and piped in _______, then NIL, and now this.

We were already a worse version of the NFL due to the factors I named (above). But it's your second to last sentence that hurts the most. Attending the more pure, amateurish game of college football was passed down from parents to kids from generation to generation. Traditions mean something. History means something. They are both important in sports, and in life. And rivalries are part of both tradition and history. As with our country, it seems that history and tradition don't mean anything anymore either. It is very sad. And in time it will be proven to be very bad.

---

I don't think there was any stopping it, but I agree with you that in time it will be very bad. There is already a very popular professional football league in America -- I think in time this will marginalize college football to the south and pockets of the midwest.

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As hs fb goes in a region, so goes college fb there. Northeast years ago. West coast trending. Everywhere else, hs fb is strong to one degree or another. A few states are iffy: IN, KY, IL (even Chi catholics).

I keep getting the feeling that soon we'll see the Saudi-financed LIV College Football Conference...

The long term trend is soccer.

I think college football has had many "turning points". But I also think that, since the mid 90's, this is the direction college football has been going. But I think the fans are to blame for this as well. There was/is this push to identify a true National Champion. Free from debate over bowl game prestige and who's ranked where and when and who ends up #1 by how many different polls. We pushed for this. Or at least the majority of college football fans did. And that translated into the BCS and to what we have now. And I think that, while there has always been a race to the top, it really kicked off with the BCS. And for the schools that can afford it, its a race for recruits, facilities and money for NIL. For the rest, its a race to the bottom - trying to decide whether they can compete, upgrading facilities to nab recruits, trying to get their sports on television.

But within all this push for strength of schedule, prestige, television and NIL, traditions and rivalries mean less. Rivalries are only "important" if teams are in the top 15. Otherwise, its strictly a regional event and not relevant to the football landscape. I mean, does anyone disagree that Cal-Stanford has lost relevancy to college football in the past 10-15 years? And even relevance to the student body? Within the greater context of national college football and national television - does the Big Game even matter?

I think what we are seeing is college football becoming more like college basketball. Strength of schedule and getting to the dance. Nothing else really matters. Rivalries and traditions included.

I seem to recall that the Big Ten invited Rutgers because it gave them the NY market, not the NJ market. I've heard that NJ is the only state that doesn't have its own market; one half is in the the NY market and the other in Philly. And if it was about the state, then the Big Ten would have invited Syracuse because NY is worth way more than NJ. So maybe, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Also any LA team is likely to drive SF viewers to turn off the TV in SF so while possible, I seriously doubt media company would lump those two markets together.

TomBear said:

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Sycasey wrote: "Sure, realignment had happened a lot recently. There was at least some level of logic to Texas being in the SEC, as they are a neighboring state. But two Los Angeles schools joining a Midwestern conference? It's so obviously absurd and only about money. And it kills the things that made college football unique: the traditions, long histories, and rivalries that came from regional conferences. Without those it's just a worse version of the NFL."

We were losing college football as we knew it anyway. It started with BCS, and at Cal moved forward with the interior design of CMS further separating the fans from the team/field, Cal marketing dept.'s whoring of the game day experience to commercials, 3 year old bear growls and piped in _______, then NIL, and now this.

We were already a worse version of the NFL due to the factors I named (above). But it's your second to last sentence that hurts the most. Attending the more pure, amateurish game of college football was passed down from parents to kids from generation to generation. Traditions mean something. History means something. They are both important in sports, and in life. And rivalries are part of both tradition and history. As with our country, it seems that history and tradition don't mean anything anymore either. $C and UC(la)'s secession is further erosion of both. It is very sad. And in time, both in sports and in our national life, the loss of tradition and history will be proven to be very bad.

And I didn't even address the issue of doing the honorable thing.........

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I do think this will destroy the sport in the long run. In the short run, sure, it makes some schools a lot of money. But in the long run it causes more people to lose interest because it's obvious the sport isn't trying to be for them.

And UCLA/USC to the Big Ten and traveling two time zones for every road game seems like the most obvious absurdity we've had to date. I think a lot of people see this for what it is, in a way they didn't before.

So what does this potentially look like in 2024 and beyond?

P12 becomes a lower conference. Smaller money. Wilcox leaves and we have to restructure coach comp package because we have to settle for the new financial reality. Maybe we'll give Tedford a call. lol

Permanent "out of conference" games will include UCLA and USC, maybe on alternating years, because they want to keep that California viewership alive. And maybe UW and Oregon are thrown in every few years for old times sake.

Meanwhile the 4 of them have some exciting matchups at first but the novelty soon wears away as what she's to
be out-of-conference strange now becomes run-of-the-mill yearly matchups without much history behind them. Should any of these teams be mediocre (*cough* ucla and USC), it just makes for a boring matchup. With history, there's always a feeling of revenge and comeuppance in these kinds of upsets.

Unless the former PAC teams become good again (I mean look at UW), you're going to look at that 2024-2029 and also yourself what happened. I'm 2030 when they figure out the new media rights package, maybe the PAC becomes whole again and we ask ourselves why we did it in the first place. Or maybe college football continues to wane as we further understand and accept the effects of CTE.

movielover said:

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The long term trend is soccer.

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Show me the soccer player who doesn't want to pick it up and run with it.

freshfunk said:

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So what does this potentially look like in 2024 and beyond?

P12 becomes a lower conference. Smaller money. Wilcox leaves and we have to restructure coach comp package because we have to settle for the new financial reality. Maybe we'll give Tedford a call. lol

Permanent "out of conference" games will include UCLA and USC, maybe on alternating years, because they want to keep that California viewership alive. And maybe UW and Oregon are thrown in every few years for old times sake.

Meanwhile the 4 of them have some exciting matchups at first but the novelty soon wears away as what she's to
be out-of-conference strange now becomes run-of-the-mill yearly matchups without much history behind them. Should any of these teams be mediocre (*cough* ucla and USC), it just makes for a boring matchup. With history, there's always a feeling of revenge and comeuppance in these kinds of upsets.

Unless the former PAC teams become good again (I mean look at UW), you're going to look at that 2024-2029 and also yourself what happened. I'm 2030 when they figure out the new media rights package, maybe the PAC becomes whole again and we ask ourselves why we did it in the first place. Or maybe college football continues to wane as we further understand and accept the effects of CTE.

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Not only smaller money from TV, but NIL will crush the mid-majors. No way they'll be able to compete or become "good again."

Rushinbear said:

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movielover said:

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The long term trend is soccer.

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Show me the soccer player who doesn't want to pick it up and run with it.

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Show me the soccer player who wants to be tackled and driven into the ground head-first by a player who weighs 100 pounds more than he does.

THANK GOD FOR RUGBY!!!!!!

My previously unstated but major concern is what does this do to our upward trajectory in recruiting? For now, we have two years of Pac 12 related scheduling. But for those young men who are now seniors or juniors in H.S., especially those in the L.A. area, what do we tell them? We don't even know if there's going to be a Pac conference at all.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, we MUST look good against Notre Dame this year. A win would be optimal, but at the very least we must give the Irish a hell of a run in South Bend.

Then, defeat all our California foes. Nothing but an 8+ win season is acceptable now. This is going to be about image. I've never been one to think winning is everything, and I still don't. But in this situation, given what's at stake, it's pretty darn close to everything, at least as far as Cal athletics future is concerned.

BearSD said:

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Rushinbear said:

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movielover said:

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The long term trend is soccer.

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Show me the soccer player who doesn't want to pick it up and run with it.

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Show me the soccer player who wants to be tackled and driven into the ground head-first by a player who weighs 100 pounds more than he does.

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Careful: she does/they do/ them do...

OdontoBear66 said:

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BearSD said:

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Rushinbear said:

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movielover said:

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The long term trend is soccer.

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Show me the soccer player who doesn't want to pick it up and run with it.

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Show me the soccer player who wants to be tackled and driven into the ground head-first by a player who weighs 100 pounds more than he does.

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Careful: she does/they do/ them do...

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Eeeeeewwwww!

Adding USC/UCLA was good business for the Big Ten. So was decimating the Pac 12 as a competitor for television. https://t.co/pG4scdqVKH

— Dan Wetzel (@DanWetzel) July 2, 2022

I know I shouldn't be, but I'm somewhat surprised that it was a unanimous decision by the big10 directors. Not a single one of them valued tradition. Not a single one of them valued the Rose Bowl or what it means. Not a single one of them looked at it in the context of the long term health of the sport, or of the promises made when the Alliance was formed.

Every single one of them said, "GIVE ME MORE MONEY NOW!"

They should have known that this is a short term cash grab that will doom the cash cow in the long term. Unless they are already under the impression that NIL is going to kill the sport and we are already on the path of no return, trying to grab every dollar they can before things go tits up, then this is an extremely short sites decision. And I would expect more from at least ONE person in the room.

Guess I'm too nave.

And before anyone else asks, yes, if it has been Cal and Stanford jumping ship to the B1G instead of USC and UCLA I'd be pissed about that too. Yes the money would be great...but tradition is what makes college football great, and this would be a step further than I'd be willing to go. That said, I guess there's a good reason I'm not the one to make the decisions.

TomBear said:

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THANK GOD FOR RUGBY!!!!!!

My previously unstated but major concern is what does this do to our upward trajectory in recruiting? For now, we have two years of Pac 12 related scheduling. But for those young men who are now seniors or juniors in H.S., especially those in the L.A. area, what do we tell them? We don't even know if there's going to be a Pac conference at all.

As I have pointed out elsewhere, we MUST look good against Notre Dame this year. A win would be optimal, but at the very least we must give the Irish a hell of a run in South Bend.

Then, defeat all our California foes. Nothing but an 8+ win season is acceptable now. This is going to be about image. I've never been one to think winning is everything, and I still don't. But in this situation, given what's at stake, it's pretty darn close to everything, at least as far as Cal athletics future is concerned.

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We tell them that no matter what kind of chaos there is out there, Cal will be a refuge for them in family, sports, academics, and life. From Cal, they will be able (sadly) to see the those who turned down Cal to wither and wander on their own in a world of indifference. The permanence and solidity of Cal will be a foundation from which they can do anything.