evanstobrown said:

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Thanks Michael.
Critically evaluating her words leaves one with questions and doubts. The Cavanaugh accusers should be a reminder that motivations sometimes lead to malicious misinformation and accusations.
Beware the vindictive who feel cheated.

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That's what you got out of the Kavanaugh hearings?

What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets "flattering" comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

RhetoriCal Bear said:

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What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets flattering comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

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She doesn't say the coach left harassing comments, she said that she would get DM'd (private messaged) things and that the coach would like her photos of her in bikinis and what not. Even if they were old. It also, should be said, that of course it's perfectly reasonable to be okay with one set of people saying something to you vs. another set of people saying something to you. Context is a real thing.

As far as the other things, she's saying that she felt pressured into doing these things because of the power dynamic that existed between the coach making advances and herself. If it's true that her job was threatened if she didn't go along with it it's not hard to believe why someone would do things that seem otherwise unreasonable.

StillNoStanfurdium said:

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RhetoriCal Bear said:

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What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets flattering comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

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She doesn't say the coach left harassing comments, she said that she would get DM'd (private messaged) things and that the coach would like her photos of her in bikinis and what not. Even if they were old. It also, should be said, that of course it's perfectly reasonable to be okay with one set of people saying something to you vs. another set of people saying something to you. Context is a real thing.

As far as the other things, she's saying that she felt pressured into doing these things because of the power dynamic that existed between the coach making advances and herself. If it's true that her job was threatened if she didn't go along with it it's not hard to believe why someone would do things that seem otherwise unreasonable.

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How could a brand new assistant coach have power over her job?

In this day and age who would not report a threat to her supervisor?

Who was her supervisor?

StillNoStanfurdium said:

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RhetoriCal Bear said:

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What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets flattering comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

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She doesn't say the coach left harassing comments, she said that she would get DM'd (private messaged) things and that the coach would like her photos of her in bikinis and what not. Even if they were old. It also, should be said, that of course it's perfectly reasonable to be okay with one set of people saying something to you vs. another set of people saying something to you. Context is a real thing.

As far as the other things, she's saying that she felt pressured into doing these things because of the power dynamic that existed between the coach making advances and herself. If it's true that her job was threatened if she didn't go along with it it's not hard to believe why someone would do things that seem otherwise unreasonable.

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I'm no techie (so I have no idea whether true or not) but I read on another site that texts, DM's etc cannot ever be completely/permemantly erased. If that's the case, it should be relatively simple to see what's what.

StillNoStanfurdium said:

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RhetoriCal Bear said:

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What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets flattering comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

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She doesn't say the coach left harassing comments, she said that she would get DM'd (private messaged) things and that the coach would like her photos of her in bikinis and what not. Even if they were old. It also, should be said, that of course it's perfectly reasonable to be okay with one set of people saying something to you vs. another set of people saying something to you. Context is a real thing.

As far as the other things, she's saying that she felt pressured into doing these things because of the power dynamic that existed between the coach making advances and herself. If it's true that her job was threatened if she didn't go along with it it's not hard to believe why someone would do things that seem otherwise unreasonable.

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She made two comments about Instagram. This is one of them, which I interpreted to mean that he was making comments to her on Instagram, which she then blocked: "To no surprise, he found me on Instagram, and starting messaging me, for which then I blocked him."

As for feeling pressure and doing things because of it, I fully agree that can happen. But why tell your mother I won't be back tonight after getting a text message that said "Meet me in my room."

Agree, too early to judge or even analyze. I will say three things however:

a) False reporting is rare vs. real reports, like single digit % but when it happens it gets BIG press.
b) Most people never report this stuff, something like 80% never say anything.
c) Very little to gain by reporting, much to lose...which relates to b. Seems almost a no-win situation.

At this point, I'm going to give the intern the benefit of the doubt because she stands to gain nothing, could even hijjack her career, life. Let the investigation happen. I see no gain here except to help stop it. As for "it doesn't sound right"...toss that out the window.

Do you guys remember the 3-5 Cal students who sued UC because of the response/cover up to sexual harassment and rape? They did that after reporting...and they had to sue? None of this bodes well.

GMP said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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LACalFan said:

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Wilcox doesn't seem like the type of person to brush this kind of thing off. I'd be shocked if he didn't take it to the appropriate people.

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We don't know these people as well as we imagine we do. Let's not pretend that we do.

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Sure, but as I understand it, it's Wilcox's job to go up the chain of command on something like this. She says she also emailed Knowlton. She also does not say when she emailed them. If Wilcox sent the complaint up the chain, he shouldn't be fired.

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I'm not saying anybody should have anything happen to them. I'm saying we don't know a damn thing.

I can smell a bottom-barrel plaintiff's side employment lawyer/extortionist from a mile away. The young lady may very well have been harassed. It's too soon to tell, but it's clear to me that a lawyer has reviewed and helped draft her FB post.

They are trying to establish the standard plaintiff's side causes of action: hostile work environment, failure to remedy and prevent harassment, failure to promote based on discrimination, constructive termination, intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress, punitive damages, etc. It's really obvious.

Everyone hates ambulance chasers for driving up healthcare and insurance costs, but the shakedown artists who call themselves plaintiff's side labor lawyers are driving businesses out-of-state or out-of-the-country.

Another Bear said:

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Agree, too early to judge or even analyze. I will say three things however:

a) False reporting is rare vs. real reports, like single digit % but when it happens it gets BIG press.
b) Most people never report this stuff, something like 80% never say anything.
c) Very little to gain by reporting, much to lose...which relates to b. Seems almost a no-win situation.

At this point, I'm going to give the intern the benefit of the doubt because she stands to gain nothing, could even hijjack her career, life. Let the investigation happen. I see no gain here except to help stop it. As for "it doesn't sound right"...toss that out the window.

Do you guys remember the 3-5 Cal students who sued UC because of the response/cover up to sexual harassment and rape? They did that after reporting...and they had to sue? None of this bodes well.

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Probably the best post I've read in this thread

I'm a longtime lurker, I just had to reset my password to say two things:

1. As a Cal alum and part-time critical thinker, I understand and appreciate that we must reserve judgment until all the facts are in. I've read the first sentence of an article and exactly zero replies to it. I'm not fully informed.

2. As a gambler and one who plays the odds, this smells like horse**** a mile away. I'll take "fabricated" for even money if anyone wants to bet. The dead give-away is in the first sentence, and honestly it's a matter of being unfamiliar with your (perceived) enemy. You don't know them, so you don't know how they speak, either. Just like the Jussie Smollett case. Bad, bad script-writing. Amazing that people still do this, but in this young lady's case, I'm betting (parlay) that she is taking the calculated, "any publicity is good publicity", Kim Kardashian school of publicity route to goose that ol' career trajectory.

If I'm wrong I'll eat my favorite Cal hat.

LMAO at the people who say they can "smell" a fabrication. Always some who feel they have to say this stuff in the middle of a situation they know nothing about.

Anyone able to cross-reference likes on her instagram with football coaches' accounts?

Yogi Bear said:

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LMAO at the people who say they can "smell" a fabrication. Always some who feel they have to say this stuff in the middle of a situation they know nothing about.

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He read the first sentence, though, so at least it's based on something.

I don't believe ANY of this.!!!

Well, if she is telling the truth she would have a treasure trove of damning texts, emails, and Instagram DM's. Everything she needs to substantiate her claims. The investigation shouldn't take long at all.

I find it very odd that if she had all of this "proof", she would come out on Facebook?!? Why not go straight to the media - or even Gloria Allred?

I guess time will tell. Frankly, if any of our coaches (multiple per her claim) are dumb enough to put any of this in writing, they should be gone.

GoBears89 said:

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Well, if she is telling the truth she would have a treasure trove of damning texts, emails, and Instagram DM's. Everything she needs to substantiate her claims. The investigation shouldn't take long at all.

I find it very odd that if she had all of this "proof", she would come out on Facebook?!? Why not go straight to the media - or even Gloria Allred?

I guess time will tell. Frankly, if any of our coaches (multiple per her claim) are dumb enough to put any of this in writing, they should be gone.

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Bingo! As GooBear says the truth shall set you free. Let's investigate and bring out the truth.

I already said that I'm not making any judgment about the veracity of the young lady's claims. I never said anything about "fabrication." I'm just pointing out how so many of the elements of the standard employment law causes of action have been skillfully included in the ostensibly off-the-cuff FB post. The post would do well as the factual allegations section of a complaint. There is clearly a lawyer involved on her side already. That is all I'm saying. The allegations may be proven true by the legal process, but they are mere allegations at this point.

I spent over a decade representing small, medium, and some of the largest corporations in the US on the defense side of these types of lawsuits. The vast majority of these cases are frivolous and settle for costs-of-defense settlements with the plaintiff's lawyer taking 50% of the proceeds as their contingency fee.

That is what will happen with this case. A confidential, costs-of-defense settlement with a bonus because of the public nature of the parties involved and the deep pockets of the defendant(s).

SurvivorOf1and10fkaLEA said:

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No one said anything about "fabrication."

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Not you, but one of the posts after yours.

I saw that after I posted. Thanks.

Yogi Bear said:

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LMAO at the people who say they can "smell" a fabrication. Always some who feel they have to say this stuff in the middle of a situation they know nothing about.

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Yup, like it's so typical of Wilcox to hire a new assistant coach and then allow him to shadow and harass an intern all practice. Why bother coaching the players after all...

evanstobrown said:

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Thanks Michael.
Critically evaluating her words leaves one with questions and doubts. The Cavanaugh accusers should be a reminder that motivations sometimes lead to malicious misinformation and accusations.
Beware the vindictive who feel cheated.

---

After what is going in our country, especially the last few days, I am not letting any cheap shots pass by me. As a trial lawyer I evaluated the credibility of witnesses as part of my job for 36 years. My son does so as a prosecutor. My son and I, as well as all of my friends that are or were trial attorneys are of the opinion that Kavanaugh conducted himself as someone that is guilty as f@ck with regard to the charges made....so PLEASE, spare me that throwaway line in your post.

SurvivorOf1and10fkaLEA said:

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I already said that I'm not making any judgment about the veracity of the young lady's claims.

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Quote:

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That is what will happen with this case. A confidential, costs-of-defense settlement with a bonus because of the public nature of the parties involved and the deep pockets of the defendant(s).

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Glad to see you're not rushing to any judgments....

NVBear78 said:

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StillNoStanfurdium said:

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RhetoriCal Bear said:

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What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets flattering comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

---

She doesn't say the coach left harassing comments, she said that she would get DM'd (private messaged) things and that the coach would like her photos of her in bikinis and what not. Even if they were old. It also, should be said, that of course it's perfectly reasonable to be okay with one set of people saying something to you vs. another set of people saying something to you. Context is a real thing.

As far as the other things, she's saying that she felt pressured into doing these things because of the power dynamic that existed between the coach making advances and herself. If it's true that her job was threatened if she didn't go along with it it's not hard to believe why someone would do things that seem otherwise unreasonable.

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How could a brand new assistant coach have power over her job?

In this day and age who would not report a threat to her supervisor?

Who was her supervisor?

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I'm not saying I know that she's 100% accurate in her claims. What I am saying is that it's not unreasonable for someone to think that a coach of any degree would have an influence over her jobs as a hydrotech. Also, we really don't know what level of coach it was that came in. Maybe they are new to Cal but had years of experience or credibility established elsewhere. Not enough information to judge.

And who wouldn't report a threat? Someone who thinks that even their supervisor wouldn't be on their side or that their job could be at stake for causing a problem. Regardless of whether they were in the right or not. Again, it's very plausible that people don't report crimes or misteps, in this situation or life at large, because they are afraid of some kind of pressure or other threat to them. Whether that's founded or unfounded.

RhetoriCal Bear said:

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StillNoStanfurdium said:

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RhetoriCal Bear said:

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What sounded strange to me was her statement that a coach was making comments to her on Instagram. As far as I am aware anyone who follows you on Instagram can see the comments anyone else writes. Why would a coach make inappropriate comments on a publicly accessible site like that? If you look her up on Instagram you will see that she's not shy when it comes to posting photos of herself and that she often gets flattering comments about her photos. Some of her other statements also sounded a bit odd. For instance, did it seem strange to anyone else that she would get a text from the harassing coach, leave her mother in a hotel room and say she was not coming back that night and then to go to that coach's room and lay down on the bed? She may have perfectly valid claims and if so the offender(s) will need to be disciplined appropriately. All of the facts on both sides will have to be evaluated before anyone can make that assessment. Whatever was said via social media should tell a significant part of the story.

---

She doesn't say the coach left harassing comments, she said that she would get DM'd (private messaged) things and that the coach would like her photos of her in bikinis and what not. Even if they were old. It also, should be said, that of course it's perfectly reasonable to be okay with one set of people saying something to you vs. another set of people saying something to you. Context is a real thing.

As far as the other things, she's saying that she felt pressured into doing these things because of the power dynamic that existed between the coach making advances and herself. If it's true that her job was threatened if she didn't go along with it it's not hard to believe why someone would do things that seem otherwise unreasonable.

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She made two comments about Instagram. This is one of them, which I interpreted to mean that he was making comments to her on Instagram, which she then blocked: "To no surprise, he found me on Instagram, and starting messaging me, for which then I blocked him."

As for feeling pressure and doing things because of it, I fully agree that can happen. But why tell your mother I won't be back tonight after getting a text message that said "Meet me in my room."

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Well you have to tell your mother something. It's not like she told her mom she was going to meet a coach late at night. I'm guessing the actual exchange, if it happened, would be another reason given like hanging out with friends to go to a party or something and then staying with a friend.

And for the Instagram bit it sounds like the coach was sending private messages which others would not have seen. So that's why a coach might feel safer making it on a "publicly accessible site". Because in fact those conversations are actually private. (Unless some get revealed as a result of this investigation).

swan said:

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Paige Elizabeth Cornelius is not currently listed as a UC student. Has anybody confirmed she is or was an actual student?

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Or alive? there's a Paige Elizabeth Cornelius obituary of a 26 year old in Kansas. Smh. Quite a name to use, quite a name lol.

upsetof86 said:

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swan said:

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Paige Elizabeth Cornelius is not currently listed as a UC student. Has anybody confirmed she is or was an actual student?

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Or alive? there's a Paige Elizabeth Cornelius obituary of a 26 year old in Kansas. Smh. Quite a name to use, quite a name lol.

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You young guys are not too swift on the Internet. This literally took 5 seconds to find:

https://harri.com/Paige-Cornelius-1

One thing I've learned over the years is that a decent percentage of the population, both male and female, are just plain bananas and don't perceive reality as the rest of us do. I'm not taking a side on this issue as we don't have the facts but all I'm saying is that there are routinely instances where someone's perception is different than reality. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be the case here.

"I couldn't let my mom down, if I got fired she wouldn't be able to support me"

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that her account is accurate... no real reason to lie, and her claims seem to be mostly verifiable, if true.

But the above statement struck me as weird because

A.) How much do you make as a waterperson?
B.) Are there no other similarly paid jobs on campus?
C.) When her Mom came to visit, she and the Mom stayed at the Claremont. (unless I misread and Cal football was paying for her to stay at the Claremont too)
D.) On her Instagram, she has pictures in Pacific Palisades with a new Mercedes SUV... travelling internationally extensively... drinking those crazy overpriced pressed juices in Hollywood... all of which is fine, but kinda weird given the original statement.

Anyway, hopefully the truth comes out, because the accusations are pretty bad, especially considering it involved multiple coaches.

PtownBear1 said:

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One thing I've learned over the years is that a decent percentage of the population, both male and female, are just plain bananas and don't perceive reality as the rest of us do. I'm not taking a side on this issue as we don't have the facts but all I'm saying is that there are routinely instances where someone's perception is different than reality. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be the case here.

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You may be dead accurate, but if she has the texts as described, good luck with that, as they say.

And now the story is in the SF Chronicle (but written by Rusty Simmons and not Asimov)

ThesePretzels said:

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"I couldn't let my mom down, if I got fired she wouldn't be able to support me"

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that her account is accurate... no real reason to lie, and her claims seem to be mostly verifiable, if true.

But the above statement struck me as weird because

A.) How much do you make as a waterperson?
B.) Are there no other similarly paid jobs on campus?
C.) When her Mom came to visit, she and the Mom stayed at the Claremont. (unless I misread and Cal football was paying for her to stay at the Claremont too)
D.) On her Instagram, she has pictures in Pacific Palisades with a new Mercedes SUV... travelling internationally extensively... drinking those crazy overpriced pressed juices in Hollywood... all of which is fine, but kinda weird given the original statement.

Anyway, hopefully the truth comes out, because the accusations are pretty bad, especially considering it involved multiple coaches.

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Are there grants or scholarships that require the student to maintain a job? If she had one of those then that is what would be threatened.

I'm pretty sure she said she was staying at the Claremont with the rest of the team, as they always do on game nights.

ncbears said:

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And now the story is in the SF Chronicle (but written by Rusty Simmons and not Asimov)

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/amp/Woman-accuses-Cal-football-players-coaches-of-13704989.php

SurvivorOf1and10fkaLEA said:

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I spent over a decade representing small, medium, and some of the largest corporations in the US on the defense side of these types of lawsuits. The vast majority of these cases are frivolous and settle for costs-of-defense settlements with the plaintiff's lawyer taking 50% of the proceeds as their contingency fee.

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Just curious: how do you know they are frivolous? Was there external evidence proving such in most of these cases?

Nothing against you personally, but I would expect the lawyer for the company to usually hold that opinion.

1. The coaches are innocent until proven guilty. However, in the court of public opinion they're probably guilty until proven innocent.

2. There should be plenty of evidence if it's true and should not take long to verify. Presumably she screenshot this stuff.

3. I understand she's a young adult, but I would've that an obvious next step would've been to consult her parents and they would've then consulted an attorney. Going public without an attorney seems like a bad move. But, again, people don't always do what's logical.

4. In my opinion, there's a solid power dynamic between a football coach and hydro tech. Advances are an abuse of power. With that said, someone mentioned "rape" which is overboard. Based on the reading, it's more of a claim of sexual harassment. Let's not throw around trigger words just to rile people up.

Other than that, this is all conjecture. The stuff about language is conjecture. I agree some of it sounds fishy which is why this needs due process. At the same time, her accusations should be taken seriously.