dimitrig said:

---

Well, given that this is all a pretty new experience I think we won't know for sure for another 40 years. The studies you cite are likely talking about absenteeism, which is an entirely different issue with its own external drivers.

---

It would have helped this discussion if you had actually read the articles I cited or at least glanced at the top line summary, because that is not what they're about. They cite school closures due to weather events, the Spanish Flu, summer vacation, etc. All such events suggest learning loss for students. Yes, the wealthier students whose parents are able to supplement tend to do better, but all students fall behind during this time.

dimitrig said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

---

I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst

---

I don't think the answer to unfair racial stereotypes is to create more unfair racial stereotypes.

dimitrig said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

---

I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst.

I think pushing for schools to open now, in February (too late!), and against the will of teachers and minority parents is a good example of that.

---

So Aunt Becky represents White people now? So rich minorities don't unethically pull strings for their kids,

Note that in the thread they made sure to say it was all White people, not just rich White people. I'm sure that poor White family is using rowing to get their kids into college.

Many teachers want to go back to school. So do many minorities even if it is a somewhat smaller percentage than White's. From the article you posted:

Quote:

---

One analysis of 858 parents with children in kindergarten through grade 12 showed that, overall, 57% of parents strongly or somewhat agreed that school should reopen this fall, but responses varied significantly by race: While 62% of white parents agreed that schools should reopen in the fall, only 46% of Black and 50% of Hispanic parents did.

---

So the difference between scumbag selfish don't give a shyte about their kids White parents, and caring, loving Hispanic parents is 12%. Or 16% for Black parents? The numbers you cited from another study had White's wanting to reopen at a slightly higher 68%. Hispanics still at 50%. Black People down to 36%.

So what is the motivation of the 50% of Hispanic parents who want their kids in school? Do they want their kids out of the house too? Are they looking for someone to buy ice cream? Are they planning that rowing fraud? If we get one more percentage point of Hispanic parents on board so we can say it is a majority rather than a split, is reopening now justified because someone other than Whites want it? What about the 36%-46% of Black parents? Why don't they get the same condemnation? These seem like pretty thin margins to build a whole stereotype around.

No one is trying to force minority parents, or any parents, to send their kids back to school. Actually, the opposite is true. You and others are trying to force parents to do without a reasonable education with zero scientific backing for your position. (and this coming from someone who says they will refuse to SUCK IT UP and get vaccinated).

I always love the excuse that more racism is an antidote for racism. I'm fine experiencing a little racism. That doesn't absolve the racist. (that would be you).

Hate is hate. Your stereotypes and hate are not absolved because you hate the dominant group

Side note my mother was an educator at OSUD from 66 - 99 until fricken lung cancer forced her into retirement. As the the child of an educator I was practically raised at the district building on 2nd ave. Being a Black woman whose Grandmother was slave in York,Sc and then raised in Gastonia,NC in the 40's and 50's. My Dad meet my Mom while being stationed at Fort Bragg in the Air Force. He went on to become a Loadmaster in Vietnam. I tell you this to give a taste of who I am who I was raised by. And how my life experiences have shaped my lenses to see life in a way I doubt you can understand. Thus if you do not agree with something i posted leave it at that.

Hate you feel the way you do because I believe your take is off and i wish I could find those words(better yet understanding) that could help you to see "it" . But you have to be open and willing. To cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

going4roses said:

---

But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

sycasey said:

---

going4roses said:

---

But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

going4roses said:

---

sycasey said:

---

going4roses said:

---

But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

---

See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

OaktownBear said:

---

going4roses said:

---

sycasey said:

---

going4roses said:

---

But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

---

See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

---

Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

going4roses said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

going4roses said:

---

sycasey said:

---

going4roses said:

---

But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

---

See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

---

Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

---

The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

That was a statement w/ no empirical research behind it. Which I noted there was no % listed. Blanket statement

And it wasn't my statement

Say he is crazy and G4R I disagree with him.

It's like I want to hire SD and ____ back geez lol

going4roses said:

---

That was a statement w/ no empirical research behind it. Which I noted there was no % listed. Blanket statement

And it wasn't my statement

Say he is crazy and G4R I disagree with him.

It's like I want to hire SD and ____ back geez lol

---

Not your statement but you did specifically choose to post it here. Do you understand why someone might then assume it represented your views, or at least something close to them?

dajo9 said:

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Originally I wrote a response about how rotten that whole conversation is. Then my curiosity got the best of me and here I am poking the bear.

A question about parenting styles for my minority friends:

When I was a young boy (like 8 years old) my father told me if I lived in his house at 18 I'd either be paying rent or going to school full time. I have said the same thing to my kids. The message is that you will be working. The goal is to raise independent adults. When my kids complain about work I (and my Dad before me) take them back to caveman days. "Did the caveman work hard? You bet he did. Why? Because for them, any moment not spent working hard was a moment getting closer to death. That is the natural state. Leisure time and games are the exception that you only get because of the hard work of your ancestors (hard to grasp for them because for them, it is the norm). Don't come looking to me for a bail out. In the caveman days, lazy bums died early. Today they live lousy lives. That's up to you".

When the kids graduate from that lesson and realization they'll be working hard, the lesson advances to, "Well you're going to spend most of your time working so you may as well work at something that pays well. How do we get you there?"

I know we all spend time talking to our kids about working hard - not asking to discuss that. But more the hardline about working full time and basically on your own at 18 - and parents not being there to bail you out (even if we probably will if we can). Is that a white thing? Solely a dajo family thing? Does that sound like bad parenting?

---

This is a another tangent, but here is my take.

I would say that it's something a concerned parent would do, not a bad parent.

However, I have known many people with a more artistic or free-spirited personality that don't fit into that mold. A good parent would recognize that and encourage them to pursue the path that appeals to them.

I have known many parents of all races that have "cut off" their kids because their kids wanted to live some sort of non-traditional life as an artist, a dancer, a writer, a musician, or an athlete. I do think white and Asian parents push harder for the study hard, go to college, get a good job - the more traditional path you describe.

Sports and extracurriculars are seen as good exercise, resume builders, and creating a well-rounded person but not generally careers by their parents.

I have known some artists who abandoned their passion to go to college at their parents' bidding and they were miserable for it and, yes, angry at their parents for pushing them in the wrong direction and misunderstanding them. Even if they studied something close to their passion in college they viewed it as a waste of time and accumulated debt for it, too.

If your kids grow up and end up hating you for not being supportive of their dreams or understanding how important something was to them then somewhere along the line you made a mistake.

going4roses said:

---

Side note my mother was an educator at OSUD from 66 - 99 until fricken lung cancer forced her into retirement. As the the child of an educator I was practically raised at the district building on 2nd ave. Being a Black woman whose Grandmother was slave in York,Sc and then raised in Gastonia,NC in the 40's and 50's. My Dad meet my Mom while being stationed at Fort Bragg in the Air Force. He went on to become a Loadmaster in Vietnam. I tell you this to give a taste of who I am who I was raised by. And how my life experiences have shaped my lenses to see life in a way I doubt you can understand. Thus if you do not agree with something i posted leave it at that.

Hate you feel the way you do because I believe your take is off and i wish I could find those words(better yet understanding) that could help you to see "it" . But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

Side note I am White. I love my kids. My wife and I both work. It is hard raising kids with two parents working. My wife decided to stay home with the kids when they were younger which was a sacrifice to her career, though she would never think it was a personal sacrifice. I gave up promotion track and a lot of money and work prestige because it would mean I would have to sacrifice time with my kids and wouldn't be able to do things like coach my kid for 6 years or drive both kids to all the activities they wanted to do. That was a work sacrifice but I would never call it a personal sacrifice. I did it both for my kids and for me because that is what would make me happiest. My proudest role is as a father. I know many White people most of whom are like me. Yeah, I know some White people who shove their kid to a nanny first chance they get. I know a lot of great, caring parents of all ethnicities and a few really shyty ones of all ethnicities. I don't need you quoting some hateful bigot telling me I'm a shyty parent because I'm White.

You have posted tweets that weren't half this bigoted to demonstrate the horrors of racism. If I posted what you did, I know I would not get a mulligan from you. I gave you a mulligan. Then you went on and justified it. Your justification is a lot of blah blah about power and pseudo academic nonsense that boils down to "It is okay because I said it about White people"

One thing that has been clear over the years. You are in a complete bubble about White people. You have zero understanding of them. You present a cartoonish image of them that is sometimes laughable and sometimes cringe worthy. Which is fine. We all have our experience and lack thereof. But you act like you know and you don't know. Quite frankly, you have shared a lot of your background and I already give you a lot of leeway because I empathize with the sense of injustice you must feel. That leeway stops at the point that you start hatefully stereotyping.

You ask of others what you won't give yourself. That is why your posts are kneecapped. If you want introspection and empathy from others, it starts in the mirror. If you want mulligans, ask yourself if you are willing to give them.

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Well, given that this is all a pretty new experience I think we won't know for sure for another 40 years. The studies you cite are likely talking about absenteeism, which is an entirely different issue with its own external drivers.

---

It would have helped this discussion if you had actually read the articles I cited or at least glanced at the top line summary, because that is not what they're about. They cite school closures due to weather events, the Spanish Flu, summer vacation, etc. All such events suggest learning loss for students. Yes, the wealthier students whose parents are able to supplement tend to do better, but all students fall behind during this time.

---

I didn't see you post any links to read. I apologize if I missed them.

However, the reason I discount studies that talk about closures is that schools aren't closed!

If you said that kids have been out of school for a year I'd agree with you. However, that's not the case. School is in session. It's just being done a different way.

That's what I mean about this being a pretty new experience and not really knowing what the impact will be.

If there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one.

dimitrig said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Well, given that this is all a pretty new experience I think we won't know for sure for another 40 years. The studies you cite are likely talking about absenteeism, which is an entirely different issue with its own external drivers.

---

It would have helped this discussion if you had actually read the articles I cited or at least glanced at the top line summary, because that is not what they're about. They cite school closures due to weather events, the Spanish Flu, summer vacation, etc. All such events suggest learning loss for students. Yes, the wealthier students whose parents are able to supplement tend to do better, but all students fall behind during this time.

---

I didn't see you post any links to read. I apologize if I missed them.

However, the reason I discount studies that talk about closures is that schools aren't closed!

If you said that kids have been out of school for a year I'd agree with you. However, that's not the case. School is in session. It's just being done a different way.

That's what I mean about this being a pretty new experience and not really knowing what the impact will be.

If there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one.

---

Maybe you should go back and read our full discussion, because I also addressed this and so did the articles I posted. Distance learning is no substitute and young kids who are in it still see similar learning loss.

Edited to add:

I'll also say that based on my personal anecdotal experience this seems to make sense too. If this were a "normal" time my kid would be getting a full day of Kindergarten. Currently he gets it piecemeal: 90 minutes of remote learning with one teacher and then on some days another 90 minutes of in-person "pod" learning with a small group (but that recently went away and the school hasn't told us why). It seems pretty obvious to me that he's not getting the kind of education he would normally be getting with in-person school.

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

---

I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst

---

I don't think the answer to unfair racial stereotypes is to create more unfair racial stereotypes.

---

Stereotypes are stereotypes because there is an element of truth in them.

What I get from this thread is that, sort of like the white Capitol Hill rioters who were treated with kid gloves and then shocked that they were arrested, some white parents are shocked and offended that a minority would offer a negative stereotype about their parenting skills.

To be called a racist because I suggested there is an element of truth to the fact that (at least some) white people want schools open to get away from their kids is the most laughable thing I have ever heard. I stated said that I don't agree with what was said in that original Tweet.

I suggested that one read the thread (which I didn't post, but decided to read for my own edification) to get exposure to what some other people (mostly minorities) think about the reopening of schools and what they perceive as the motivations for doing so. There are a lot of white people out there pushing for schools to reopen that think they are doing the children of minorities a favor, but clearly there are some minorities who don't think it's doing them a favor at all but actively working against them.

That's all. No more, no less.

I'd ask OTB for an apology for calling me a racist, but I'm not really offended by his schtick. I do think that's a term that should be applied carefully and not thrown around like it was.

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Well, given that this is all a pretty new experience I think we won't know for sure for another 40 years. The studies you cite are likely talking about absenteeism, which is an entirely different issue with its own external drivers.

---

It would have helped this discussion if you had actually read the articles I cited or at least glanced at the top line summary, because that is not what they're about. They cite school closures due to weather events, the Spanish Flu, summer vacation, etc. All such events suggest learning loss for students. Yes, the wealthier students whose parents are able to supplement tend to do better, but all students fall behind during this time.

---

I didn't see you post any links to read. I apologize if I missed them.

However, the reason I discount studies that talk about closures is that schools aren't closed!

If you said that kids have been out of school for a year I'd agree with you. However, that's not the case. School is in session. It's just being done a different way.

That's what I mean about this being a pretty new experience and not really knowing what the impact will be.

If there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one.

---

Maybe you should go back and read our full discussion, because I also addressed this and so did the articles I posted. Distance learning is no substitute and young kids who are in it still see similar learning loss.

Edited to add:

I'll also say that based on my personal anecdotal experience this seems to make sense too. If this were a "normal" time my kid would be getting a full day of Kindergarten. Currently he gets it piecemeal: 90 minutes of remote learning with one teacher and then on some days another 90 minutes of in-person "pod" learning with a small group (but that recently went away and the school hasn't told us why). It seems pretty obvious to me that he's not getting the kind of education he would normally be getting with in-person school.

---

I will repeat what I said:

"Is there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one"

Can you cite such a study? I'd like to read it.

OaktownBear said:

---

going4roses said:

---

Side note my mother was an educator at OSUD from 66 - 99 until fricken lung cancer forced her into retirement. As the the child of an educator I was practically raised at the district building on 2nd ave. Being a Black woman whose Grandmother was slave in York,Sc and then raised in Gastonia,NC in the 40's and 50's. My Dad meet my Mom while being stationed at Fort Bragg in the Air Force. He went on to become a Loadmaster in Vietnam. I tell you this to give a taste of who I am who I was raised by. And how my life experiences have shaped my lenses to see life in a way I doubt you can understand. Thus if you do not agree with something i posted leave it at that.

Hate you feel the way you do because I believe your take is off and i wish I could find those words(better yet understanding) that could help you to see "it" . But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

Side note I am White. I love my kids. My wife and I both work. It is hard raising kids with two parents working. My wife decided to stay home with the kids when they were younger which was a sacrifice to her career, though she would never think it was a personal sacrifice. I gave up promotion track and a lot of money and work prestige because it would mean I would have to sacrifice time with my kids and wouldn't be able to do things like coach my kid for 6 years or drive both kids to all the activities they wanted to do. That was a work sacrifice but I would never call it a personal sacrifice. I did it both for my kids and for me because that is what would make me happiest. My proudest role is as a father. I know many White people most of whom are like me. Yeah, I know some White people who shove their kid to a nanny first chance they get. I know a lot of great, caring parents of all ethnicities and a few really shyty ones of all ethnicities. I don't need you quoting some hateful bigot telling me I'm a shyty parent because I'm White.

You have posted tweets that weren't half this bigoted to demonstrate the horrors of racism. If I posted what you did, I know I would not get a mulligan from you. I gave you a mulligan. Then you went on and justified it. Your justification is a lot of blah blah about power and pseudo academic nonsense that boils down to "It is okay because I said it about White people"

One thing that has been clear over the years. You are in a complete bubble about White people. You have zero understanding of them. You present a cartoonish image of them that is sometimes laughable and sometimes cringe worthy. Which is fine. We all have our experience and lack thereof. But you act like you know and you don't know. Quite frankly, you have shared a lot of your background and I already give you a lot of leeway because I empathize with the sense of injustice you must feel. That leeway stops at the point that you start hatefully stereotyping.

You ask of others what you won't give yourself. That is why your posts are kneecapped. If you want introspection and empathy from others, it starts in the mirror. If you want mulligans, ask yourself if you are willing to give them.

---

I didn't ask nor assume your racial identity. So...
anyhow
Let it go and I'll do the same
Cool?

dimitrig said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Well, given that this is all a pretty new experience I think we won't know for sure for another 40 years. The studies you cite are likely talking about absenteeism, which is an entirely different issue with its own external drivers.

---

It would have helped this discussion if you had actually read the articles I cited or at least glanced at the top line summary, because that is not what they're about. They cite school closures due to weather events, the Spanish Flu, summer vacation, etc. All such events suggest learning loss for students. Yes, the wealthier students whose parents are able to supplement tend to do better, but all students fall behind during this time.

---

I didn't see you post any links to read. I apologize if I missed them.

However, the reason I discount studies that talk about closures is that schools aren't closed!

If you said that kids have been out of school for a year I'd agree with you. However, that's not the case. School is in session. It's just being done a different way.

That's what I mean about this being a pretty new experience and not really knowing what the impact will be.

If there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one.

---

Maybe you should go back and read our full discussion, because I also addressed this and so did the articles I posted. Distance learning is no substitute and young kids who are in it still see similar learning loss.

Edited to add:

I'll also say that based on my personal anecdotal experience this seems to make sense too. If this were a "normal" time my kid would be getting a full day of Kindergarten. Currently he gets it piecemeal: 90 minutes of remote learning with one teacher and then on some days another 90 minutes of in-person "pod" learning with a small group (but that recently went away and the school hasn't told us why). It seems pretty obvious to me that he's not getting the kind of education he would normally be getting with in-person school.

---

I will repeat what I said:

"Is there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one"

Can you cite such a study? I'd like to read it.

---

Is there a study that says it doesn't? If there is, I'd like to read it.

Do you have kids?

dimitrig said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Well, given that this is all a pretty new experience I think we won't know for sure for another 40 years. The studies you cite are likely talking about absenteeism, which is an entirely different issue with its own external drivers.

---

It would have helped this discussion if you had actually read the articles I cited or at least glanced at the top line summary, because that is not what they're about. They cite school closures due to weather events, the Spanish Flu, summer vacation, etc. All such events suggest learning loss for students. Yes, the wealthier students whose parents are able to supplement tend to do better, but all students fall behind during this time.

---

I didn't see you post any links to read. I apologize if I missed them.

However, the reason I discount studies that talk about closures is that schools aren't closed!

If you said that kids have been out of school for a year I'd agree with you. However, that's not the case. School is in session. It's just being done a different way.

That's what I mean about this being a pretty new experience and not really knowing what the impact will be.

If there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one.

---

Maybe you should go back and read our full discussion, because I also addressed this and so did the articles I posted. Distance learning is no substitute and young kids who are in it still see similar learning loss.

Edited to add:

I'll also say that based on my personal anecdotal experience this seems to make sense too. If this were a "normal" time my kid would be getting a full day of Kindergarten. Currently he gets it piecemeal: 90 minutes of remote learning with one teacher and then on some days another 90 minutes of in-person "pod" learning with a small group (but that recently went away and the school hasn't told us why). It seems pretty obvious to me that he's not getting the kind of education he would normally be getting with in-person school.

---

I will repeat what I said:

"Is there is a study that says distance learning for a few months permanently hampers educational attainment I'd like to read that one"

Can you cite such a study? I'd like to read it.

---

Read the article: https://www.educationnext.org/price-students-pay-when-schools-are-closed/

The relevant section:

Quote:

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The adverse effects of online learning at the elementary and secondary level are best documented by studies of virtual charter schools. Numerous studies show lower performance by students at virtual charters than by those attending nearby public schools. A study of virtual schools in Indiana reaches the following conclusions:

We find the impact of attending a virtual charter on student achievement is uniformly and profoundly negative, equating to a third of a standard deviation in English/language arts (ELA) and a half of a standard deviation in math. This equates to a loss of roughly 11 percentile points in ELA and 16 percentile points in math for an average virtual charter student at baseline as compared to their public school peers.

Nor is there any evidence that public schools operated by school districts fared any better with online education when they switched from classroom instruction to virtual learning in the spring of 2020. "For most children, the school year effectively ended in March," observes University of Michigan economist Susan Dynarski. According to surveys administered by the EdWeek Research Center during spring closures, "teachers report they're spending less time on instruction overall, and they're spending more time on review and less on introducing new material. Nationally, on average, teachers say they're working two fewer hours per day than when they were in their classrooms. And they estimate that their students are spending half as much time on learning3 hours a dayas they were before the coronavirus." The Center on Reinventing Public Education reports the following results from a nationally representative survey of school districts in the United States: "Just 1 in 3 districts has been expecting all teachers to deliver instruction." The researchers find large disparities depending on the wealth and well-being of the district: Districts with the most affluent students were twice as likely as the districts with the highest concentrations of low-income students to require at least some teachers to provide live, real-time instruction." In a survey of parents conducted by Education Next in May 2020, 71 percent said their child learned less, with 29 percent saying a lot less, after their school closed; only 13 percent said their child learned more.

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Of course we don't have any long-term studies on the current situation because the current situation is new. But I think we can connect the dots a little bit here. Studies show that virtual learning is considerably worse than in-person, and they also show that school closures in the past have had long-term impacts on the students that were effected. I think the most logical conclusion to draw from that is that the current virtual-learning situation is going to have negative long-term impacts on students. Not as bad as a full school closure, but still bad.

dimitrig said:

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sycasey said:

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dimitrig said:

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OaktownBear said:

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I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

---

I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst

---

I don't think the answer to unfair racial stereotypes is to create more unfair racial stereotypes.

---

Stereotypes are stereotypes because there is an element of truth in them.

What I get from this thread is that, sort of like the white Capitol Hill rioters who were treated with kid gloves and then shocked that they were arrested, some white parents are shocked and offended that a minority would offer a negative stereotype about their parenting skills.

To be called a racist because I suggested there is an element of truth to the fact that (at least some) white people want schools open to get away from their kids is the most laughable thing I have ever heard. I stated said that I don't agree with what was said in that original Tweet.

I suggested that one read the thread (which I didn't post, but decided to read for my own edification) to get exposure to what some other people (mostly minorities) think about the reopening of schools and what they perceive as the motivations for doing so. There are a lot of white people out there pushing for schools to reopen that think they are doing the children of minorities a favor, but clearly there are some minorities who don't think it's doing them a favor at all but actively working against them.

That's all. No more, no less.

I'd ask OTB for an apology for calling me a racist, but I'm not really offended by his schtick. I do think that's a term that should be applied carefully and not thrown around like it was.

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OaktownBear can speak for himself, but I'm not seeing where he actually called you a racist. He said the original argument in the tweet from Gabriel Piemonte was racist.

dimitrig said:

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dajo9 said:

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Originally I wrote a response about how rotten that whole conversation is. Then my curiosity got the best of me and here I am poking the bear.

A question about parenting styles for my minority friends:

When I was a young boy (like 8 years old) my father told me if I lived in his house at 18 I'd either be paying rent or going to school full time. I have said the same thing to my kids. The message is that you will be working. The goal is to raise independent adults. When my kids complain about work I (and my Dad before me) take them back to caveman days. "Did the caveman work hard? You bet he did. Why? Because for them, any moment not spent working hard was a moment getting closer to death. That is the natural state. Leisure time and games are the exception that you only get because of the hard work of your ancestors (hard to grasp for them because for them, it is the norm). Don't come looking to me for a bail out. In the caveman days, lazy bums died early. Today they live lousy lives. That's up to you".

When the kids graduate from that lesson and realization they'll be working hard, the lesson advances to, "Well you're going to spend most of your time working so you may as well work at something that pays well. How do we get you there?"

I know we all spend time talking to our kids about working hard - not asking to discuss that. But more the hardline about working full time and basically on your own at 18 - and parents not being there to bail you out (even if we probably will if we can). Is that a white thing? Solely a dajo family thing? Does that sound like bad parenting?

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This is a another tangent, but here is my take.

I would say that it's something a concerned parent would do, not a bad parent.

However, I have known many people with a more artistic or free-spirited personality that don't fit into that mold. A good parent would recognize that and encourage them to pursue the path that appeals to them.

I have known many parents of all races that have "cut off" their kids because their kids wanted to live some sort of non-traditional life as an artist, a dancer, a writer, a musician, or an athlete. I do think white and Asian parents push harder for the study hard, go to college, get a good job - the more traditional path you describe.

Sports and extracurriculars are seen as good exercise, resume builders, and creating a well-rounded person but not generally careers by their parents.

I have known some artists who abandoned their passion to go to college at their parents' bidding and they were miserable for it and, yes, angry at their parents for pushing them in the wrong direction and misunderstanding them. Even if they studied something close to their passion in college they viewed it as a waste of time and accumulated debt for it, too.

If your kids grow up and end up hating you for not being supportive of their dreams or understanding how important something was to them then somewhere along the line you made a mistake.

---

This response hits really close to home for me because it is pretty close for both my kids. Neither of them is going to take the "traditional" path you describe, which both my wife and I took. Neither of them will be going to Berkeley.

One of my children is very much into art. It is her passion. I fully encourage her to follow her passions. I pay for her to follow her passions with various clinics and programs. I also don't change the story at all about her need to support herself financially. If she is 18 and living under my roof she needs to pay rent or be going to school full time. I guess I am a bad parent.

I am well off by any definition but not so well off that my kids are trust fund babies. I'm not sure about how you define "cutting off". I don't intend to support my child at 30 years old whether they are an artist or a lawyer. Things may happen, and I may very well end up doing that - who knows what the future has in store. But that is not the message I am sending.

I don't know if anybody has done studies on the impact to the kids, but Australia has been doing remote teaching for kids living in the isolated locations in the outback for decades. First by radio and more recently via the internet. My suspicion is that they've worked out ways of doing it that are likely more effective than what we've quickly thrown together in the last 10 months. Remote learning is probably being done in other parts of the world too, though I haven't heard of any other examples.

My nephew is an elementary school teacher and he works in a poor neighborhood. One of the problems he faces is that a third or more of the families don't have internet in their homes, so those kids aren't participating at all. He worries that a significant chunk of the student population are getting left behind and may never catch up.

dimitrig said:

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sycasey said:

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dimitrig said:

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OaktownBear said:

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I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

---

I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst

---

I don't think the answer to unfair racial stereotypes is to create more unfair racial stereotypes.

---

Stereotypes are stereotypes because there is an element of truth in them.

What I get from this thread is that, sort of like the white Capitol Hill rioters who were treated with kid gloves and then shocked that they were arrested, some white parents are shocked and offended that a minority would offer a negative stereotype about their parenting skills.

To be called a racist because I suggested there is an element of truth to the fact that (at least some) white people want schools open to get away from their kids is the most laughable thing I have ever heard. I stated said that I don't agree with what was said in that original Tweet.

I suggested that one read the thread (which I didn't post, but decided to read for my own edification) to get exposure to what some other people (mostly minorities) think about the reopening of schools and what they perceive as the motivations for doing so. There are a lot of white people out there pushing for schools to reopen that think they are doing the children of minorities a favor, but clearly there are some minorities who don't think it's doing them a favor at all but actively working against them.

That's all. No more, no less.

I'd ask OTB for an apology for calling me a racist, but I'm not really offended by his schtick. I do think that's a term that should be applied carefully and not thrown around like it was.

---

Just keep digging. Just keep digging


So there are stereotypes that certain groups are stupid. Is there an element of truth to that? There are stereotypes that certain groups are lazy. Is there an element of truth to that? If somebody posts "X people are lazy and stupid" is it okay? Because there is an element of truth to that apparently or it wouldn't be a stereotype. (Hint: Most stereotypes don't have an element of truth to them. Stereotypes usually say a lot more about the person promulgating them than they do about the target)

So arguing that schools should be open makes White people uncaring parents. So arguing that is stereotypical nonsense makes White people Capitol Hill rioters. got it.

There are not a lot of White parents arguing to open up their school for the good of the minorities. That is a complete straw man. Most White parents are arguing for their predominantly White schools to be open.

Again, from your article, the great divide between White parents and Hispanic parents was 62% to 50%. Do you think that 12% could maybe be explained by a lot of other factors besides White people wanting their kids out of the house? Why do you ignore the 50% Hispanic people? Do they not have a say? Do you have a study that demonstrates that more White people want their school age children out of the house? You are big on demanding studies. Where's yours? Any other racist stereotypes you want to discuss that have an element of truth to them?

Maybe the difference has more to do with differences in how different groups view education generally:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-education-differ-race-politics-and-age

Quote:

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For instance, New America found that 86 percent of whites and 89 percent of Asian Americans believe that those who pursue higher education will have more job opportunities than those who do not.

But only 69 percent of Black people surveyed and 74 percent of Latinos agreed.

---

Gee. Do you think maybe that is the correlation as opposed to Whites being more likely to want kids to get out of the house? Because amazingly the difference between Whites and Hispanics in the article you posted was 12%. The difference in this survey was 12%. The difference between Whites and Blacks in your article was 16%. The difference in this survey is 17%. Amazingly the difference between those that want schools open and those that think higher education leads to more job opportunities tracks pretty consistently. Admittedly, I do not have a poll that asks "Do you give a shyte about your children". Maybe Whites would track 12%/16% lower on that one and prove your point. If you have such a poll, I'm happy to consider.

OaktownBear said:

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dimitrig said:

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sycasey said:

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dimitrig said:

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OaktownBear said:

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I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

---

I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst

---

I don't think the answer to unfair racial stereotypes is to create more unfair racial stereotypes.

---

Stereotypes are stereotypes because there is an element of truth in them.

What I get from this thread is that, sort of like the white Capitol Hill rioters who were treated with kid gloves and then shocked that they were arrested, some white parents are shocked and offended that a minority would offer a negative stereotype about their parenting skills.

To be called a racist because I suggested there is an element of truth to the fact that (at least some) white people want schools open to get away from their kids is the most laughable thing I have ever heard. I stated said that I don't agree with what was said in that original Tweet.

I suggested that one read the thread (which I didn't post, but decided to read for my own edification) to get exposure to what some other people (mostly minorities) think about the reopening of schools and what they perceive as the motivations for doing so. There are a lot of white people out there pushing for schools to reopen that think they are doing the children of minorities a favor, but clearly there are some minorities who don't think it's doing them a favor at all but actively working against them.

That's all. No more, no less.

I'd ask OTB for an apology for calling me a racist, but I'm not really offended by his schtick. I do think that's a term that should be applied carefully and not thrown around like it was.

---

Just keep digging. Just keep digging


So there are stereotypes that certain groups are stupid. Is there an element of truth to that? There are stereotypes that certain groups are lazy. Is there an element of truth to that? If somebody posts "X people are lazy and stupid" is it okay? Because there is an element of truth to that apparently or it wouldn't be a stereotype. (Hint: Most stereotypes don't have an element of truth to them. Stereotypes usually say a lot more about the person promulgating them than they do about the target)

So arguing that schools should be open makes White people uncaring parents. So arguing that is stereotypical nonsense makes White people Capitol Hill rioters. got it.

There are not a lot of White parents arguing to open up their school for the good of the minorities. That is a complete straw man. Most White parents are arguing for their predominantly White schools to be open.

Again, from your article, the great divide between White parents and Hispanic parents was 62% to 50%. Do you think that 12% could maybe be explained by a lot of other factors besides White people wanting their kids out of the house? Why do you ignore the 50% Hispanic people? Do they not have a say? Do you have a study that demonstrates that more White people want their school age children out of the house? You are big on demanding studies. Where's yours? Any other racist stereotypes you want to discuss that have an element of truth to them?

Maybe the difference has more to do with differences in how different groups view education generally:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-education-differ-race-politics-and-age

Quote:

---

For instance, New America found that 86 percent of whites and 89 percent of Asian Americans believe that those who pursue higher education will have more job opportunities than those who do not.

But only 69 percent of Black people surveyed and 74 percent of Latinos agreed.

---

Gee. Do you think maybe that is the correlation as opposed to Whites being more likely to want kids to get out of the house? Because amazingly the difference between Whites and Hispanics in the article you posted was 12%. The difference in this survey was 12%. The difference between Whites and Blacks in your article was 16%. The difference in this survey is 17%. Amazingly the difference between those that want schools open and those that think higher education leads to more job opportunities tracks pretty consistently. Admittedly, I do not have a poll that asks "Do you give a shyte about your children". Maybe Whites would track 12%/16% lower on that one and prove your point. If you have such a poll, I'm happy to consider.

---

Like most white people you are really good at expressing faux outrage. (That's a joke, but I am sure you will be faux outraged by it and call me a racist again.)


On stereotypes:

Maybe you can read this article from Psychology Today subtitled "Stereotypes are often harmful, but often accurate."

Stereotype Accuracy: A Displeasing Truth

"As Yale psychologist Paul Bloom has noted, 'You don't ask a toddler for directions, you don't ask a very old person to help you move a sofa, and that's because you stereotype.'"


On white families advocating to reopen schools against the wishes of minorities:

According to the New York Times article it is stated that even in predominantly black school districts like Oakland (which you may be familiar with) it is the white families pushing for schools to open even though they make up a minority of the district.

"In New York City, about 12,000 more white children have returned to classrooms than Black students, though Black children make up a larger share of the overall district. In Oakland, Calif., just about a third of Black parents said they would consider in-person learning, compared with more than half of white families. And Black families in Washington, Nashville, Dallas and other districts also indicated they would keep their children learning at home at higher rates than white families."

(Source: Missing in School Reopening Plans: Black Families' Trust)

In that Twitter thread people commented that it was the same in Georgia and Chicago with a loud of minority of white parents pushing loudly to reopen minority majority school districts.

So it is not true "White parents are arguing for their predominantly White schools to be open" except in the sense that there are more white school districts than minority dominated ones.

Here is a nice opinion piece written by a woman of color who states things much more eloquently than I am able to:

The 'Reopen Schools Now!' Debate Is Rooted In Racism

Here are some snippets:

"Some parents say, "send the kids back now," emphatic that we open schools immediately. Soccer moms suddenly profess concern for inner city kids in one breath, and prospects for college admissions for their own kids in the other, as though the stakes are the same. We see white and affluent parents leveraging the plight of historically underserved children as justification to reopen schools now, while actively excluding the communities they claim to be advocating for from the conversation."

"I imagine that it is true fear for their kids, and a feeling of unaccustomed powerlessness, coupled with the entitlement that comes with access to opportunity. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. The sudden recognition by those who have been able to advocate, influence, or buy access to opportunities that they are now in the same boat as everyone else is a terrifying and unwelcome reality."

"Third, there are greater fears than missing a season of soccer, or the SATs, or the fun of senior year. Parents claiming to advocate on our behalf are not in solidarity with marginalized people if they feel their fears outweigh ours."

"Rather than putting their energy and resources into solving the social and educational inequities that they claim to be against, efforts that could make surviving this moment in time more tenable, they demand their right to choice, which just demonstrates they would be content to leave the rest of us behind as long as their needs are being met. "

"They must recognize that their perception of our reality is inaccurate, and do not have to commit to agreeing, but to listening with the intent to understand. They must seek out voices across demographics and center those voices, not just their own."

Now, this is just one woman's opinion, but for some reason she sees the same thing other people of color do.

At what point do you want to stop being right and just listen to what people are trying to tell you whether you agree or disagree with it?

sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

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That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

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I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

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The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

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I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

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That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

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The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

---

I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

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Oh yes, it was definitely some attention-grabbing Twitter nonsense. That's why it's impossible to have a real conversation on that app.

Quote:

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Like most white people you are really good at expressing faux outrage. (That's a joke, but I am sure you will be faux outraged by it and call me a racist again.)

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There is nothing faux. I think you are an ignorant asshat. You have no clue about either science or social science and you continually misrepresent or misunderstanding Case in point:

Quote:

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On stereotypes:

Maybe you can read this article from Psychology Today subtitled "Stereotypes are often harmful, but often accurate."

Stereotype Accuracy: A Displeasing Truth

"As Yale psychologist Paul Bloom has noted, 'You don't ask a toddler for directions, you don't ask a very old person to help you move a sofa, and that's because you stereotype.'"

---

You have completely miscast what this article means. It is not an excuse for racial stereotyping nor is it saying that there is truth to most racial stereotyping. You have a tendency to rephrase things to suit you (like often to most or most to all). It is true that we are biologically programmed to stereotype in a scientific sense. That is, I learn from my experiences. If I touch an object and get a shock, the next time I see a similar object I think it might shock me. And yes, obvious things like an old person isn't the one to ask to move furniture are the types of characterizations we make. That is not the same thing as people in society making claims about people based on race and arguing that they do so because it is true. That is not the case at all. Think about a lot of social stereotypes out there and ask yourself if that is really what you want to argue. There are at least as many stereotypes about minorities being bad parents as Whites.

Quote:

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On white families advocating to reopen schools against the wishes of minorities:

According to the New York Times article it is stated that even in predominantly black school districts like Oakland (which you may be familiar with) it is the white families pushing for schools to open even though they make up a minority of the district.

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Really. Oakland is a predominantly Black school district? Your false assumptions are showing. Hint. Oakland schools are 22.6% Black.

Quote:

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"In New York City, about 12,000 more white children have returned to classrooms than Black students, though Black children make up a larger share of the overall district. In Oakland, Calif., just about a third of Black parents said they would consider in-person learning, compared with more than half of white families. And Black families in Washington, Nashville, Dallas and other districts also indicated they would keep their children learning at home at higher rates than white families."

(Source: Missing in School Reopening Plans: Black Families' Trust)

---

[url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/us/politics/school-reopening-black-families.html][/url]

By the way, NYC schools are 26% Black. And is anyone asking the Black people to go to in person learning? Apparently not in NY where they specifically chose not to return. As in had a choice. Which is exactly what Bay Area school districts are doing. If anyone is forcing any students back, I vehemently disagree with that.

Quote:

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In that Twitter thread people commented that it was the same in Georgia and Chicago with a loud of minority of white parents pushing loudly to reopen minority majority school districts.

So it is not true "White parents are arguing for their predominantly White schools to be open" except in the sense that there are more white school districts than minority dominated ones.

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1. You missed the word "most" there. Most White parents live in predominantly White school districts so most White parents are advocating for THEIR schools to be opened. The point is your claim that they are cloaking the argument in benefits to minorities is bullshyte. They are mostly not doing that. They want THEIR kids' schools opened. Whether they are advocating over the objections of Black parents is another question. Though if that were the actual question, why isn't that couched as Black parents are advocating to keep schools closed over the objections of White parents. What is going on is parents of all groups are advocating for what they believe is right for their schools.

Quote:

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Here is a nice opinion piece written by a woman of color who states things much more eloquently than I am able to:

The 'Reopen Schools Now!' Debate Is Rooted In Racism

Here are some snippets:

"Some parents say, "send the kids back now," emphatic that we open schools immediately. Soccer moms suddenly profess concern for inner city kids in one breath, and prospects for college admissions for their own kids in the other, as though the stakes are the same. We see white and affluent parents leveraging the plight of historically underserved children as justification to reopen schools now, while actively excluding the communities they claim to be advocating for from the conversation."

---

One person's opinion. Frankly, the derisive and dismissive use of the term "soccer moms" gives me some clue as to where the person's perspective is.

Quote:

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"I imagine that it is true fear for their kids, and a feeling of unaccustomed powerlessness, coupled with the entitlement that comes with access to opportunity. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. The sudden recognition by those who have been able to advocate, influence, or buy access to opportunities that they are now in the same boat as everyone else is a terrifying and unwelcome reality."

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That is valid if parents are arguing that minority voices shouldn't be heard. It is not valid if they are merely advocating for their children. While I agree with the sentiment generally, it is not valid to apply it every time a White person gives an opinion. The above opinion could be 1. A valid opinion in some cases based on the facts on the ground; or 2. An easy way to dismiss the concerns of those she doesn't agree with; or 3. Both.

Quote:

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"Third, there are greater fears than missing a season of soccer, or the SATs, or the fun of senior year. Parents claiming to advocate on our behalf are not in solidarity with marginalized people if they feel their fears outweigh ours."

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People should not claim to advocate on anyone's behalf. There is no reason why a parent should be in solidarity with any group other than their own kids.

Quote:

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"Rather than putting their energy and resources into solving the social and educational inequities that they claim to be against, efforts that could make surviving this moment in time more tenable, they demand their right to choice, which just demonstrates they would be content to leave the rest of us behind as long as their needs are being met. "

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Social justice is a laudable goal and we should all work for it. The fact that we haven't solved all social justice problems does not mean White parents cannot speak for the benefit of their children.

Quote:

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"They must recognize that their perception of our reality is inaccurate, and do not have to commit to agreeing, but to listening with the intent to understand. They must seek out voices across demographics and center those voices, not just their own."

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Individual parents don't need to seek out anything. In this context, what they need to do is advocate for their child. As should all parents. The school board should make sure that all parents have equal access to the meetings, which includes helping to reach out to those who have a harder time attending the meetings. They should listen to all concerns equally. Beyond that, it is up to the parents who are interested to show up and state their case.

Quote:

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Now, this is just one woman's opinion, but for some reason she sees the same thing other people of color do.

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If you know anything about schools, school districts, and school boards, you know that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Rather than complaining that White people squeak, they should squeak like hell.

Quote:

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At what point do you want to stop being right and just listen to what people are trying to tell you whether you agree or disagree with it?

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You have obfuscated a simple issue with a lot of issues that were irrelevant to my response. It was a very simple and direct point. This statement is bigoted:

Quote:

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How long do we have to wait before we have the awkward conversation about how eager white people are to get rid of their kids, even if it means they risk getting a deadly infection?

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White parents are overwhelmingly advocating for their children's education. They are not trying to get rid of them. They are not risking them getting a deadly infection (58 Covid deaths out of 41M people in the age group. Playing football in non Covid times has an annual death rate per participant that is 7 times higher.)

You cannot stop just saying Gabriel's statement is true. You cloud the situation by throwing a bunch of other instances where you believe White people have transgressed. Irrelevant to the point. That is a bigoted statement designed to dismiss the concerns of White parents because they are White by portraying them as parents that don't give a shyte about their kids.

See, I don't need to listen to a person like that. I don't need to listen to you. Louis Farrakhan often makes some good points about the plight of the Black community. He is also a hateful racist. I don't need to listen to Louis Farrakhan. I can listen to many Black leaders who are not hateful racist and get the same thing. I'll do you the courtesy that I don't feel you deserve:

White parents should not try and speak for anyone but their children. To the extent they try and speak for minority communities, they should leave that to the minority parents to speak for themselves. They definitely shouldn't cloak their concerns for their children in concern for others. We disagree about how often that is happening. I'd guess what we are seeing is more that minority groups are feeling that White concerns are being heard over theirs. That is probably true.

There is a problem that White parents definitely know how to work the system when it comes to schools. I don't know if that is experience or if that is that their concerns are addressed more often. I suspect it is both. I was not familiar with how hard parents lobbied for their kids' interest. I learned quickly. I had to do so 3 times. You better believe I did it hard.

Saying that, If you want to have a discussion about relative power among ethnic and racial groups in the school system, fine. That is a crucially important discussion to have. If you think White people have too much power in that setting fine. I agree. If you think White people should listen to minority groups more, fine. I agree.

You don't start that conversation by portraying White parents as only acting out of the self interest of wanting their kids out of the house to the detriment of their kids' health. You don't continue that conversation by portraying some White couple in a bad light for asking for help with their child during the work day and then ascribing that to all White people. And on a tangent. What the hell makes you think they have a choice to stop work? A job is usually 9-5 no matter where it is. I happen to be lucky enough that while I work from home I could take extended breaks to do something with my kid and work longer hours in the early morning or evenings. Not everyone has the luxury of signing off their job. No, most people working from home cannot sign off at 3:00 on a regular basis and take their kids to go get ice cream. In fact, they may get disciplined at work for doing it. Many employers can actually track if you stop using your computer for long periods. I'm guessing if the person went out of the house and worked a manual labor job from 9-5 and asked the exact same thing, you'd have sympathy and you wouldn't view it as proof their race not giving a shyte about their children.

I'm not having any of these conversations starting on the premise that White people are bad parents. Because if you continue to defend that position, there is no good conversation to be had. Now, if Gabriel wants to say "Okay, I was ticked off and I shouldn't have said that. All our parents are advocating for what they think is best for their child. But I'm frustrated because the voices and concerns of White people are heard over others." Fine. Hug it out and lets have a fruitful conversation. As long as we are on "No. I mean it. White people are asshats." - not having the conversation.

Do you have kids?

Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

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That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

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I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

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The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

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I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

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Fine, but for me, it reflects how racism against certain groups is basically deemed socially acceptable. If you are white, you cannot say anything if someone decides to malign you based on your skin color, irrespective of your actual character or experiences. To defend oneself is not to recognize the social injustice against another group or one's white privilege. Asians and Jewish - generally in the same place except for limited exceptions and who the person being discriminatory is. Some of the other races, there is no practical way to assess someone based on his/her actual character because implying anything negative regarding an individual (even if we would all agree that someone white doing the same would be viewed negatively) who just happens to be a person of color can be painted as racist by fake woke crowd.

That is no way for people to actually respect one anther's individuality, humanity, and worth and to have true human connection.

You cannot correct injustice by perpetuating the same injustice, just against a different group. You fix injustice by calling out the evil of the injustice as a principle and appeal to our better angels to stand up for the right principle, no matter who the victim of the injustice is

Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

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The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

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I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

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If you look at his Twitter account and that thread specifically, it was not an off the cuff remark. He doubled and tripled down on it while people said things like if White parents weren't White they'd have their kids taken away by CPS.

dimitrig said:

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OaktownBear said:

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dimitrig said:

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sycasey said:

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dimitrig said:

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OaktownBear said:

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I suggest you read the Twitter thread he thinks is so informative about White people and see the racism on display. Like


"Thank you! I'm going to lay this argument out more completely eventually, but I think it's cultural, that white parents are less emotional tied to their children and more materially oriented. That sounds awful, but think about the fact that their justification is science and yet"


Most of the thread is made up of non White people giving testimony to what shyty parents White people are.

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I think it's good for white parents to read that.

You know, the ones who lie about their kids rowing so they can get into college and things like that.

Minorities often hear about what crappy parents they are because they are raising kids in single parent households and such.

Well, white people can be crappy parents, too. In fact, they are some of the worst

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I don't think the answer to unfair racial stereotypes is to create more unfair racial stereotypes.

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Stereotypes are stereotypes because there is an element of truth in them.

What I get from this thread is that, sort of like the white Capitol Hill rioters who were treated with kid gloves and then shocked that they were arrested, some white parents are shocked and offended that a minority would offer a negative stereotype about their parenting skills.

To be called a racist because I suggested there is an element of truth to the fact that (at least some) white people want schools open to get away from their kids is the most laughable thing I have ever heard. I stated said that I don't agree with what was said in that original Tweet.

I suggested that one read the thread (which I didn't post, but decided to read for my own edification) to get exposure to what some other people (mostly minorities) think about the reopening of schools and what they perceive as the motivations for doing so. There are a lot of white people out there pushing for schools to reopen that think they are doing the children of minorities a favor, but clearly there are some minorities who don't think it's doing them a favor at all but actively working against them.

That's all. No more, no less.

I'd ask OTB for an apology for calling me a racist, but I'm not really offended by his schtick. I do think that's a term that should be applied carefully and not thrown around like it was.

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Just keep digging. Just keep digging


So there are stereotypes that certain groups are stupid. Is there an element of truth to that? There are stereotypes that certain groups are lazy. Is there an element of truth to that? If somebody posts "X people are lazy and stupid" is it okay? Because there is an element of truth to that apparently or it wouldn't be a stereotype. (Hint: Most stereotypes don't have an element of truth to them. Stereotypes usually say a lot more about the person promulgating them than they do about the target)

So arguing that schools should be open makes White people uncaring parents. So arguing that is stereotypical nonsense makes White people Capitol Hill rioters. got it.

There are not a lot of White parents arguing to open up their school for the good of the minorities. That is a complete straw man. Most White parents are arguing for their predominantly White schools to be open.

Again, from your article, the great divide between White parents and Hispanic parents was 62% to 50%. Do you think that 12% could maybe be explained by a lot of other factors besides White people wanting their kids out of the house? Why do you ignore the 50% Hispanic people? Do they not have a say? Do you have a study that demonstrates that more White people want their school age children out of the house? You are big on demanding studies. Where's yours? Any other racist stereotypes you want to discuss that have an element of truth to them?

Maybe the difference has more to do with differences in how different groups view education generally:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/06/25/views-higher-education-differ-race-politics-and-age

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For instance, New America found that 86 percent of whites and 89 percent of Asian Americans believe that those who pursue higher education will have more job opportunities than those who do not.

But only 69 percent of Black people surveyed and 74 percent of Latinos agreed.

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Gee. Do you think maybe that is the correlation as opposed to Whites being more likely to want kids to get out of the house? Because amazingly the difference between Whites and Hispanics in the article you posted was 12%. The difference in this survey was 12%. The difference between Whites and Blacks in your article was 16%. The difference in this survey is 17%. Amazingly the difference between those that want schools open and those that think higher education leads to more job opportunities tracks pretty consistently. Admittedly, I do not have a poll that asks "Do you give a shyte about your children". Maybe Whites would track 12%/16% lower on that one and prove your point. If you have such a poll, I'm happy to consider.

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Like most white people you are really good at expressing faux outrage. (That's a joke, but I am sure you will be faux outraged by it and call me a racist again.)


On stereotypes:

Maybe you can read this article from Psychology Today subtitled "Stereotypes are often harmful, but often accurate."

Stereotype Accuracy: A Displeasing Truth

"As Yale psychologist Paul Bloom has noted, 'You don't ask a toddler for directions, you don't ask a very old person to help you move a sofa, and that's because you stereotype.'"


On white families advocating to reopen schools against the wishes of minorities:

According to the New York Times article it is stated that even in predominantly black school districts like Oakland (which you may be familiar with) it is the white families pushing for schools to open even though they make up a minority of the district.

"In New York City, about 12,000 more white children have returned to classrooms than Black students, though Black children make up a larger share of the overall district. In Oakland, Calif., just about a third of Black parents said they would consider in-person learning, compared with more than half of white families. And Black families in Washington, Nashville, Dallas and other districts also indicated they would keep their children learning at home at higher rates than white families."

(Source: Missing in School Reopening Plans: Black Families' Trust)

In that Twitter thread people commented that it was the same in Georgia and Chicago with a loud of minority of white parents pushing loudly to reopen minority majority school districts.

So it is not true "White parents are arguing for their predominantly White schools to be open" except in the sense that there are more white school districts than minority dominated ones.

Here is a nice opinion piece written by a woman of color who states things much more eloquently than I am able to:

The 'Reopen Schools Now!' Debate Is Rooted In Racism

Here are some snippets:

"Some parents say, "send the kids back now," emphatic that we open schools immediately. Soccer moms suddenly profess concern for inner city kids in one breath, and prospects for college admissions for their own kids in the other, as though the stakes are the same. We see white and affluent parents leveraging the plight of historically underserved children as justification to reopen schools now, while actively excluding the communities they claim to be advocating for from the conversation."

"I imagine that it is true fear for their kids, and a feeling of unaccustomed powerlessness, coupled with the entitlement that comes with access to opportunity. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. The sudden recognition by those who have been able to advocate, influence, or buy access to opportunities that they are now in the same boat as everyone else is a terrifying and unwelcome reality."

"Third, there are greater fears than missing a season of soccer, or the SATs, or the fun of senior year. Parents claiming to advocate on our behalf are not in solidarity with marginalized people if they feel their fears outweigh ours."

"Rather than putting their energy and resources into solving the social and educational inequities that they claim to be against, efforts that could make surviving this moment in time more tenable, they demand their right to choice, which just demonstrates they would be content to leave the rest of us behind as long as their needs are being met. "

"They must recognize that their perception of our reality is inaccurate, and do not have to commit to agreeing, but to listening with the intent to understand. They must seek out voices across demographics and center those voices, not just their own."

Now, this is just one woman's opinion, but for some reason she sees the same thing other people of color do.

At what point do you want to stop being right and just listen to what people are trying to tell you whether you agree or disagree with it?

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By the way, when you are trying to argue that you aren't prejudiced, "Like most white people..." is not the best way to start your point.

dimitrig said:

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The 'Reopen Schools Now!' Debate Is Rooted In Racism

Here are some snippets:

"Some parents say, "send the kids back now," emphatic that we open schools immediately. Soccer moms suddenly profess concern for inner city kids in one breath, and prospects for college admissions for their own kids in the other, as though the stakes are the same. We see white and affluent parents leveraging the plight of historically underserved children as justification to reopen schools now, while actively excluding the communities they claim to be advocating for from the conversation."

"I imagine that it is true fear for their kids, and a feeling of unaccustomed powerlessness, coupled with the entitlement that comes with access to opportunity. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. The sudden recognition by those who have been able to advocate, influence, or buy access to opportunities that they are now in the same boat as everyone else is a terrifying and unwelcome reality."

"Third, there are greater fears than missing a season of soccer, or the SATs, or the fun of senior year. Parents claiming to advocate on our behalf are not in solidarity with marginalized people if they feel their fears outweigh ours."

"Rather than putting their energy and resources into solving the social and educational inequities that they claim to be against, efforts that could make surviving this moment in time more tenable, they demand their right to choice, which just demonstrates they would be content to leave the rest of us behind as long as their needs are being met. "

"They must recognize that their perception of our reality is inaccurate, and do not have to commit to agreeing, but to listening with the intent to understand. They must seek out voices across demographics and center those voices, not just their own."

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First I will say that I realize these are not your words specifically. I'm just going to address the argument presented.

I think her points about listening to minority communities and their concerns are valid. That's why I'm not advocating that every child should be forced to return to in-person school. Districts should attempt to make their best arrangements to allow for both in-person learning and remote. In fact, I think that having some students remote will also make it easier to keep the in-person learners (and the teachers) safe by helping to maintain social distancing in classrooms. Win-win.

There are some other points she makes that I think are either inaccurate or contradictory. For one thing, she cites "missing a season of soccer, or the SATs, or the fun of senior year" as the trivial concerns of white parents. It seems to me those are not the primary concerns. The primary concern is what happens to these kids by missing so much schooling, especially for younger kids in the critical elementary school years? By making "soccer" and "senior year" the strawman arguments she sidesteps the real educational and child-development problems created by school closures. I'm happy to hear the worries minority or other parents may have about in-person school, but this only works if those who are opposed to it also hear the concerns of those who want in-person learning. This author is just talking past everyone in the same way she accuses white parents of doing.

She also mocks white parents for relying on "the data" and tells them to just listen to the personal experiences of the people she knows. Okay, but what if some of us also have personal experiences that the current situation is not treating our kids well? How do we resolve this dispute? Apparently the "data" has to be thrown out because it's biased against her position. This is starting to sound an awful lot like the Trumpists' arguments about who won the election. If you start telling me not to look at the data I'm going to get suspicious of your position.

Bottom line: I don't think you can make an argument that your concerns will need to be heard if you never seem to hear anyone else's.

OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

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That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

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The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

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I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

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If you look at his Twitter account and that thread specifically, it was not an off the cuff remark. He doubled and tripled down on it while people said things like if White parents weren't White they'd have their kids taken away by CPS.

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Well, screw him, then. No doubt, he's loving all this attention we're giving him. I swear, half the "news" these days consists of something somebody said, how somebody reacted to something somebody said, or how somebody reacted to the reaction from something somebody said.

Oh, I finally remembered his real name: It's Gabriel Who

calbear93 said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

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That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

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The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

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I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

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Fine, but for me, it reflects how racism against certain groups is basically deemed socially acceptable. If you are white, you cannot say anything if someone decides to malign you based on your skin color, irrespective of your actual character or experiences. To defend oneself is not to recognize the social injustice against another group or one's white privilege. Asians and Jewish - generally in the same place except for limited exceptions and who the person being discriminatory is. Some of the other races, there is no practical way to assess someone based on his/her actual character because implying anything negative regarding an individual (even if we would all agree that someone white doing the same would be viewed negatively) who just happens to be a person of color can be painted as racist by fake woke crowd.

That is no way for people to actually respect one anther's individuality, humanity, and worth and to have true human connection.

You cannot correct injustice by perpetuating the same injustice, just against a different group. You fix injustice by calling out the evil of the injustice as a principle and appeal to our better angels to stand up for the right principle, no matter who the victim of the injustice is

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I think White People are like blonds and the French (I know, subsets and all):

They (we) need to be able to take a little ribbing and just shake it off. It's the price paid for being on top of the societal heap.

Big C said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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OaktownBear said:

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going4roses said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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But you have to be open and willing but you trying to cast doubt on all my posts because of one shared tweet seems a bit like overkill. No?

---

That one shared tweet also tried to cast doubt on the motives of all white parents who want their kids in school, so that was also a bit like overkill. No?

Openness and willingness has to go both ways or else we're not getting anywhere in a debate like this. Are you open to the idea that parents who want their kids in school just want what's best for their kids and other kids in their community?

---

I'm saying disagree with the tweet np but does that one tweet clearly not me cast doubt on every post I have made?

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See, when directly asked, you still can't even say you are open to the idea that White parents just want what is best for their kids.

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Hold on just one min I never said that. There are clearly white parents that want the best for their kids. Is that really what you took from that tweet ? Hmm

---

The tweet literally says that white people want to get rid of their kids. How else is anyone supposed to take it?

---

I'm a white stay-at-home dad. The person that tweeted that, Gabriel Whatever, I have no idea if he is considered a "serious" commentator on our life and times, but here is how I took it:

Just somebody tweeting to get attention, like millions do. It sounded like an off-hand remark that was maybe intended to get a few people to laugh, combined with a little shock value. I actually chuckled a bit, inside, as it reminded me of a few stay-at-home parents in our community, who, after school's over (back when the kids were in school) paid to keep their kids in after-school care, so that the parents would have the entire day "free", instead of just 8:30-3:00. (These kids are invariably the worst behaved, in extra-curriculars, as well.) As I'm thinking of these families, they happen to be white, but they could be green, purple, who gives a s***. Fortunately, there aren't that many of them.

Anyway, hey Gabriel What's-Your-Name, that was a mildly witty tweet there. Haha. By now, I would've forgotten everything about it, and you, were it not for the constant reminders on this thread.

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If you look at his Twitter account and that thread specifically, it was not an off the cuff remark. He doubled and tripled down on it while people said things like if White parents weren't White they'd have their kids taken away by CPS.

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Well, screw him, then. No doubt, he's loving all this attention we're giving him. I swear, half the "news" these days consists of something somebody said, how somebody reacted to something somebody said, or how somebody reacted to the reaction from something somebody said.

Oh, I finally remembered his real name: It's Gabriel Who

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Frankly, I have no idea how g4r found him because there are barely any views of the tweet. I'm not worried about all the attention he is getting.