dimitrig said:
OaktownBear said:
dimitrig said:
The reality is that it is mostly white parents who are pushing for schools to be reopened and it is disingenuous when they couch it in terms of being concerned about the education for at-risk kids. Of course it's not something JUST white people are concerned over, but white (and Asian) parents are the ones pushing hardest for school reopening.
Maybe it is an education (as in minority families are less well informed) issue, but it is also true that minority families have had a lot more personal experiences with COVID-19 which makes them a lot more wary than white families who have mostly been living in a bubble.
"The report, issued Thursday, details the racial and ethnic differences in parents' attitudes and concerns about school reopenings, with the notable top-line finding that Black and Latino parents are troubled to a greater degree about various aspects of schools reopening such as compliance with prevention measures, safety and their child contracting or bringing home COVID-19 than white parents."
(Source: CDC: Black, Latino Parents More Concerned About School Reopenings Than Whites)
"According to the Understanding America Study at the University of Southern California, 68% of white parents want their children to return to school this academic year. However, only 36% of black parents and 50% of Hispanic parents feel the same way."
(Source: Why reopening schools in minority neighbourhoods is hard)
Okay, dmitri. So, I can look at your polls and use them to come to various differing conclusions:
1. Most parents care deeply about their kids. They care deeply about their education. They care deeply about their health and well being. For whatever reason, different communities have different concerns. Maybe it is information. Maybe it is cultural concerns. Maybe it is different priorities. And in the case of Covid, those differences lead to more Whites and Asians weighing the risks of their children missing a year of school higher than the risks of Covid compared to Blacks and Latinx.
2. Let's have an honest conversation about why Whites and Asians care deeply about their kids and their kids' education and Blacks and Latinx don't give an eff.
3. Let's have an honest conversation about why Blacks and Latinx care deeply about the health and well being of their children and Whites don't give an eff, just want them effing out of the house, and if their kids have to die so they don't have to deal with them anymore, so be it.
You see how that works? Gabriel came square down in #3. I would never come down in 2 or 3. Clearly it is #1. The tweet that was posted was offensive.
As for disingenuous, I think it is disingenuous to act like most parents have cloaked their concerns in what is best for minorities. The vast majority of parents have made their concerns very clear that they want their children back in school. There is a real concern, mostly expressed by educators, policy makers and social scientists, that this is having a big impact on our elementary school kids and that impact is felt harder in minority and poor communities. (And it is funny, if people ignore the disparate impact, they are racist. If they express concern, they are disingenuous).
People are people. All people primarily see things from their point of view and the point of view of groups that are closest to them. That is how we are wired. There is a difference between being more attuned and concerned with your own interests and having evil intentions with everything you do. No race, White people included go through life with more evil intent. White people in this society have MUCH more power so their interests are heard MUCH louder. I think it is incumbent on White people to understand that. Asshats like Gabriel who want to look at every decision White people make as inherently evil do not help the conversation.
Whether you agree with them or not, it is abundantly clear that the overwhelming motivation among White parents is that their kids are not getting an adequate education. Portraying White parents as just wanting their kids out of the house even if it kills them is extraordinarily offensive and it is frankly pathetic that you and g4r do not see that.
I do not agree with Gabriel's sentiment that white parents want their kids out of the house even if it kills them. I think (hope) he was exaggerating to make a point.
I do think that some caucasian cultures (mostly northern European and not as much in Italian culture, say) are more likely to want their kids out of the house, though. Caucasians are the demographic least likely to be living with extended family, for example, and to send their kids off to school far from home for college or even prior to that. There is this idea of independence that is instilled in the culture. "You're 18 now so get out of the house and get a job." Maybe that is less true with the current crop of millenials sleeping on the couch until they are 30, but it has been historically.
I think that caucasian families don't always appreciate the concerns of minority communities even when they are championing their causes. It is always just chalked up to lack of education. "I know what's better for you and your family than you do." The truth is that a lot of minorities are front line workers and they know the risks involved in that. They also are more likely to have extended families living at home with them.
So, yes, like the New York Times points out there is not a lot of trust in the systems that have continually failed them. Having them read an article talking about statistical outcomes of remote learning or medical journals about outcomes of in-person schooling during the pandemic isn't going to be too convincing when they have seen with their own eyes what this virus can do and how little the system cares about their health and safety.
Wealthier white parents probably work from home where they are never exposed to COVID-19. They get tested often. They may have already been vaccinated. They live in much larger single family homes where everyone has their own spaces and grandma, if she lives with them, is in her own flat out back. They have food and groceries delivered and they probably have access to more and better PPE. So when they are evaluating risk they are evaluating it from their perspective.
The equation changes when you live with extended family in a densely populated apartment building with poorly maintained HVAC systems and you do your shopping at a Mexican grocery. store. No one has time or money to get tested frequently and if someone does test positive it is difficult to quarantine. You've probably been going in to work regularly and have seen your coworkers and their families get sick and even die. You probably have more underlying medical conditions and less access to health care. So, yeah, the risk calculation is a little bit different there and more information from scientific and economic studies won't address the concerns those parents have.
Which is all absolutely fine. No one is demanding parents send their kids back to school. It is also fair to look at studies of transmission centered around schooling and ask if they are accounting for communities you describe or if they are primarily looking at affluent White communities. One of the problems with scientific studies is they often do an extremely poor job of representing different types of people.
In this particular situation, parents who do want their kids to attend school in person are not afforded the choice. Studies, certainly of middle class communities are very clear that the risk of spread centered around school is low. As for the children themselves, there have been a total of 58 deaths in the 5-14 age group over a population of 41 million. I would argue that parents who want their kids in school are expressing what the vast majority of parents do - the willingness to put their kids' interest ahead of their own - as the parents are at greater risk than their kids. (And yes, that risk/reward analysis will vary based on the risk people see in their own community).
I'm sorry, but your first paragraph is a massive oversimplification. First of all, the nuclear family concept is a significantly American phenomenon that grew primarily in the first half of the 20th century. Prior to that America followed a significantly more extended family pattern. America in the first half of the 20th century was nearly 90% Non-Hispanic White and in fact was still 83.5% in 1970. Things have changed rapidly since 1990 with much more non-White immigration. It is not true that Northern Europeans are significantly more likely than Southern Europeans to be in nuclear families. It is true that non-immigrants are more likely to have adopted "American" culture, including nuclear family arrangements and the further away you are from first generation, the more likely you are to be in a nuclear family arrangement. (anecdotal comment, I'm part Italian, and I know of no one in my family tree that lived in an extended family arrangement dating back to when my grandparents were children 100 years ago) In the past three decades, the immigrant population is significantly more minority than it ever has been. It would be very surprising if as these communities are more and more affluent and made up of a higher percentage of 3rd generation or later individuals if they are not more arranged in nuclear families.
Very, very, very few Whites Americans or Americans generally send their kids to boarding school outside of a small fraction of wealthy elites mostly in the Northeast. Whites and Asians send their kids further afield to college because they have more opportunities and more money to go to higher ranked colleges vs. commuter colleges. (I don't think you could reasonably claim that Asians are anti-extended family.) I can tell you that personally, I am saving a bundle this year not having to pay for my kid to live in a dorm. So for the same reason that poor communities double up on living arrangements, they also are less likely to be able to afford for their kids to live away from home during schooling.
And in any case, that is not White people "wanting their kids out of the house". That is an American cultural trait of wanting ADULT offspring to be independent, and that belief is shared by the adult offspring who also want to live on their own. This is also shifting somewhat as millennials have been hit hard by economics and as young adults are delaying when they start families. It is becoming more and more commonplace for adult offspring to stay at home until they are more economically established.
That being said, a culture wanting adults to leave the household and make their own household has absolutely no bearing on how a culture treats school age children. Wanting your adult offspring to make it on their own is not remotely the same thing as wanting school age children out of the house. We all know what the guy was saying and it had nothing to do with independence. It had to do with claiming White people don't give a shyte about their kids.
Frankly, I doubt you would tolerate the sentiment about any other grouping, even if it was meant to be an exaggeration. (seriously, would you tolerate the statement "Why don't Blacks care about their kids' education?") That is frankly an excuse. And what non-offensive point do you think that exaggeration is trying to make. I'd love to hear a non-offensive restatement of what "he really meant". There is never an excuse for
that type of characterization. It deserves a much bigger condemnation than "I don't agree with his sentiment, but I think he was exaggerating to make a point and actually White people do just want to get kids out of the house, at least Northern European White people.
If you think that the only problem with the "exaggeration" is the implication that White people don't care if their kids die, you've missed the point. There are plenty of parents of every group that just want their kids out of the house. Most want what is best for their children. This was a disgraceful way to minimize their concerns.
