sycasey said:

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calpoly said:

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LMK5 said:

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I remember back in the 80s when the air traffic controllers wouldn't go back to work and Reagan invoked the Taylor Law. Those that refused to back to work were replaced. Is there a similar statute that could be used for teachers?

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If you did not notice teachers are working. BTW, good luck finding millions of qualified people to teach.

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It's definitely not fair to say teachers aren't working. They are.

But at the same time it seems pretty clear that virtual learning isn't serving the kids nearly as well as in-person, so it is reasonable to ask when they will come back for in-person school.

---

Teachers by and large do a fabulous job. They are working very hard to do the best for our kids. Most of them have worked harder to adjust to a new style of instruction than they ever would have had to do under normal circumstances. I'm sure if Covidly magically disappeared tomorrow they would be thrilled to be back in the classroom.

Teachers also by and large respect parents and want what is best for their students. Some union leadership and some school boards are failing them in their messaging.

The issue is not a matter of laziness. The issue is that we have been through a scary situation and being scared is a normal response. However, as scientific evidence comes in, and as rates decline, as individuals and as a society we have to decide in a reasonable fashion how to put aside our fears and get back to normal where possible. We can't pretend like everywhere is a hospital ward in NYC in April. Some things are dangerous. Some aren't. Their fear in this situation is genuine, but it is also not justified. If doing their jobs from home didn't matter, I'd be 100% for letting people work out their fear on their own time. However, where it does matter we need to move on. For most, their fear will pass quickly and we already have ample evidence they are at minimal risk.

If anything, the "parents just want to get rid of their kids" argument is so absurd and insulting and weak that it is a major tell that those that are making that argument know they have no justification for the arguments they are making.

SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

---

sycasey said:

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75bear said:

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I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

---

Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

---

sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

---

To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

---

There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

---

Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

---

With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Getting food production back up to full capacity was a top priority as well. People were in food bank lines. There wasn't enough food in grocery stores. And food production workers in a much riskier environment were told to go back to work or lose their jobs. (which is not at all what I want to happen to teachers). They are not getting priority in vaccinations because they had zero power in the first place. Why should they not be a top priority just because we can get our food by saying "too bad. So sad. Go to work or we get someone else to do your job"

Vaccination priority should be based on what slows the spread of the disease and prevents the most illness and death. Not who has the most power or who has the most fear.

I'm sure 5% of parents want their "babysitters back." But as a parent of 2 elementary school children who talks to plenty of other elementary school parents, I can assure you that 95% of us who want in-person instruction is due to kids having a terrible experience with screens and distance learning, as well as a complete lack of social-emotional growth. My daughter now says her best friend is a stuffed animal because she hasn't interacted with a classmate in 340 days.

I'm not sure how this message gets clouded, unless the listener has no interest in understanding.

75bear said:

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I'm sure 5% of parents want their "babysitters back." But as a parent of 2 elementary school children who talks to plenty of other elementary school parents, I can assure you that 95% of us who want in-person instruction is due to kids having a terrible experience with screens and distance learning, as well as a complete lack of social-emotional growth. My daughter now says her best friend is a stuffed animal because she hasn't interacted with a classmate in 340 days.

I'm not sure how this message gets clouded, unless the listener has no interest in understanding.

---

I notice that the "virtual learning really sucks for young kids" point is one that none of the teachers' advocates seem willing to address. Why not just agree to bring K-5 schools back to in-person? How about K-2? The full hold-the-line approach of the unions doesn't make sense to me in this context.

For those with kids in OUSD (K-5 only) the Superintendent is putting out a preference form, so you can indicate if you want in-person or virtual-only classes. Perhaps a sign of some movement.

https://t.e2ma.net/message/95fa6d/hse2eeg

Very interesting rabbit hole this thread has gone in to...

Ahahahahahah

sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

sycasey said:

---

75bear said:

---

I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

---

Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

---

sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

---

To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

---

There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

---

Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

---

With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

---

Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

BTW, look at the CDC guidelines on opening schools. Many of the items are not possible without reduced class sizes which is not possible for most school districts. Why not vaccinate the teachers so they can feel safe?

calpoly said:

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sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

sycasey said:

---

75bear said:

---

I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

---

Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

---

sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

---

To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

---

There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

---

Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

---

With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

---

Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

BTW, look at the CDC guidelines on opening schools. Many of the items are not possible without reduced class sizes which is not possible for most school districts. Why not vaccinate the teachers so they can be safe dealing with the public?

---

calpoly said:

---

sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

sycasey said:

---

75bear said:

---

I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

---

Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

---

sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

---

To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

---

There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

---

Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

---

With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

---

Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

---

W T F, seriously? Come on, I've been pretty clear about what my reasoning is.

sycasey said:

---

calpoly said:

---

sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

SFBear92 said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

sycasey said:

---

75bear said:

---

I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

---

Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

---

sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

---

To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

---

There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

---

Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

---

With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

---

Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

---

W T F, seriously? Come on, I've been pretty clear about what my reasoning is.

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Yes seriously!

calpoly said:

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sycasey said:

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calpoly said:

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sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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75bear said:

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I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

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Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

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sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

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To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

---

There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

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Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

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With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

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Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

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Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

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W T F, seriously? Come on, I've been pretty clear about what my reasoning is.

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Yes seriously!

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Well, it's as I've said, if people aren't willing to address parents' concerns in good faith then we definitely won't have open schools.

But really, try reading the whole thread. We've been over this "you just don't want your kids around" argument before. It's reductive and insulting.

A Liberal Thing said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Whining Liberal Parents said:

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sycasey said:

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OaktownBear said:

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sycasey said:

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This kind of response from the secretary for the Oakland teachers union does not make me confident. (She deleted the tweet that's been screenshotted here, but it's definitely real as I saw it last night.)

I'm seeing similar attitudes across more than a few teachers' reps and have seen similar arguments made by folks here (dimitrig), so now I think I know where they're coming from. In the past I have typically supported teachers unions but now I am starting to lose respect. It's one thing to have concerns about safety, quite another to impugn the motives of parents who pay taxes and whose children you are supposed to serve.

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Oakland parents massively supported teachers when they walked out in 2019. It is a shame to see what Covid is doing to the parent - teacher relationship

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I think the unions are being pretty short-sighted here about how much the continued resistance to reopening is damaging their own long-term cause. Liberal parents were their strongest allies, and this is going to fray that relationship the longer it drags on.

In Oregon they have prioritized teachers ahead of even elderly people for vaccines and some of the unions still don't want to go back. This is not reasonable.

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You guys are all so fscking full of shyt.

Parents know the truth about the "support" of liberal parents. Liberal parents whine to the teachers about grades so they can get their kids into the best colleges. Liberal parents whine to the teachers about some small offense that they've taken. Liberal parents will cancel them if they say the wrong thing and try to get them fired.

And liberal parents ain't gonna do jack shyt. What are they going to threaten them with? Vote Republican so that the leaders will enact more anti-union legislation? Even lower pay and benefits? Fsck you guys and your fake concern about teachers. You want your low-paid babysitters back and any concerns you pretend to have for your kid's well-being is the same hot air you blow on every other issue.

I'm so concerned for your mental well being because you've had to be full-time parents for a year. My mom did it for 18. Grow a pair and stop whining about your needs and pretending it's about the kids, cause it's not. As always, it's all about you.

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1. wrapping a poor argument in a bunch of insults and a stupid meme doesn't make it smarter
2. Why is this a liberal thing? Parents of all political persuasions are lobbying for schools to open. It isn't even close to a liberal issue. You just want to bang on liberals because you are at war with liberals.
3. We all know there are bad parents. We all know that some parents will hammer teachers for grades. And most of the parents hate them and wish the school would stand up to them. It is pathetic that some groups are smearing all parents (which, by the way, most of the population is at some point in their lives, with the traits of a cliche stereotype. I guarantee you virtually everyone here has had experience with more than one teacher who is a burnout case or who doesn't give a damn about the students and who you know has a calendar with a bunch of X's on it at home that says "3000 more days to retirement". The fact is that most parents are good parents and most teachers are good teachers, and both care about the education of their children/students.
4. What are liberal parents going to do? Well, I think union leaders ought to consider what they might not do. In 2019 the Oakland teachers walked out after a year of negotiations. Parents and students massively supported them on picket lines and by putting a lot of pressure on the school administration. Teachers got over twice the raise the school district had previously offered. To quote the union president:

Quote:

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The real victory of our historic strike for the schools our students deserve lies in the power and unity we built at our school sites, in our union, and in the city of Oakland," said Keith Brown, president of the Oakland Education Association labor union, during a press conference Friday. "Tens of thousands of Oaklanders of all ages joined us on our picket lines and at our mass rallies and actions

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.Union leaders, as well as school boards feeling pressure, have massively thrown parents under the bus just 2 years after parents stood up for them. They didn't need to do that to make their point. They did the short sighted thing of going in guns blazing on every argument that is right in front of their face without assessing who they need as allies in future battles. I think parents who have been told they don't give a shyte about their kids are not exactly going to march alongside those people the next time they want a pay raise. It is a stupid argument. Most parents love their kids and most people have the experience of being parents. I know teachers and administrators have to deal with crappy parents and I know they are the ones most often in their face, but they also get to deal with the parents who help in the classroom and who help get them all the resources they need when the school won't.
5. Yes there are parents who only care about grades and they whine to teachers to get better grades for their kids. You know what? They are perfectly happy right now. They are mostly parents of high schoolers who don't need supervision and grading for online learning is much easier. Those parents are happy to have the schools stay closed.
6. The hilarious thing about this stereotype about the parents with their nannies is that those parents HAVE NANNIES. They aren't looking for a babysitter. They have one. They don't care about paying them, its chump change to them. Often, they pay the nanny all day anyway and have them do other jobs. Parents who don't want to be with their kids are not the issue. They already aren't.
7. So, do I want cheap babysitting? My kid is a high schooler. I don't need a babysitter. My kid is fine. Would like to see her friends, yes. I've known for months my kid isn't going back in a meaningful way until fall. Doesn't bother me. The risks of going back are greater for high schoolers and the damage of remote learning is not nearly as severe, so I am perfectly fine with keeping high schools closed. In fact, I actively supported letting elementary schools use the high school facilities to increase social distancing if that helped make it safer. Elementary school kids do not learn on zoom. Period. They are being significantly hurt by this and to me that outweighs the minimal risk to elementary school teachers.
8. It goes without saying that opening schools requires proper ventilation, masking, and social distancing as per the CDC guidelines and the vast majority of parents want that as it keeps their kids safe as well as teachers. Unions would have a parent ally in that if they stopped insulting parents. Fact is, though, that most school districts that are trying to open are following those guidelines and putting those measures in place.
9. You are the one blowing hot air. You are at war with liberals so whatever side they take you take the opposite one. Including when that means letting predominantly white, middle class professionals jump the vaccine line over predominantly minority, poorer workers who are at more significant risk because the former has an irrational fear not borne out by scientific studies and the latter is just used to their health and welfare not mattering. The bottom line is that when all the data says indoor restaurants are dangerous, you ignore it (because liberals supposedly want them closed). When all the data says we are going to be in a world of hurt if Americans all have Thanksgiving gatherings, you ignore it because you want to stuff turkey down your neck and then when the death rate quadruples you stick by your guns. In every other Covid shut down situation you have said prove it, prove it, prove it despite mountains of evidence. The one time you say, no, don't need to prove it is the one time their is tons of evidence that the activity is safe. But, basically sycasey and I are on this side of the argument, so in order to call us fakes, you have to go opposite to everything you have said. You love to throw the words fake and fraud around and you are the fraud. You stand for nothing except the opposite of what others say. You like Jo Rowling so much. She has you pegged. You are a boggart. You can't take a form except in relation to the individual in front of you.

Most parents love their kids. They like to be with their kids. When their kids are in school they still parent them 19 hours a day. They want their kids in school to get an education. They supported closing schools last spring when it made sense. Now the data is extremely clear in the case of elementary schools that the risk is low and the harm is great. The unions, school boards, and educators who have chosen to portray parents in this light in order to win an argument are in for some very uncomfortable times. And by the way, most haven't done that. IMO, those that have should be sent packing. Hard to see how people who have such little respect for the families in their district are qualified to have any say in the direction our education takes.

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1. Some people deserve the insults.
2. sycasey made it a liberal thing.
3. The percentage of teachers who are burnouts is much lower than the percentage of parents who are genuinely concerned about their kids and the welfare and safety of teachers. As a child of a teacher, you may not know that many teachers. I've spent decades working with teachers, so I know the profession quite well.
4. No offense, but you need the support of the teachers far more than they need your support. They were throwing you a bone to make you seem important.
5. They are not happy. They don't want to have to deal with their teenagers either.
6. Most people who have nannies also have their kids in private schools.
7. I was responding to sycasey, not you.
8. Teachers have years of being backstabbed by parents. Don't play the angel card. Every teacher knows the biggest pain in the ass of their job is dealing with parents.
9. DNGAF about whatever you wrote in #9. I don't care what you think my motivations are. I'm just here to tweak you hypocrites and if you don't like it, tough shyt. Thanks for the wall of text though.

Sincerely,

Loyal hanky1 supporter (who also does a great job of telling you all to fsck yourselves)

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1. Wrong
2. No he didn't
3. Wrong and shows your lack of respect for parents. Yes, most teachers are awesome. So are most parents. Bad ones are loud and glaring but most are supportive and just trying to get the best education for their kids. By the way I could share a lot of stories about teachers who worked with my father (and including my father) who went above and beyond for their students at a very poor school including giving of their time and their own money
4. Good luck with that next time teachers go on strike. The last Oakland strike was very short and very successful for teachers and a large component of that was parents screaming at the school district from the jump. Makes it a lot easier for the district to hold out longer if parents aren't breathing down their necks on the issue. But the bottom line is that no one needed to argue the interests of teachers (which the union absolutely should be doing) by arguing that parents are all a pile of shyte that don't give a crap about their kids. By the way, about 85% of people become parents, so arguing that "parents" suck traits is basically calling the entire community a bunch of asshats. Good luck fighting that battle.
5. Have you ever had a teenager? Or been one? Because, yeah, teens tend not to spend all day hanging out with their parents. And they are spending as much time in zoom class as they would in the classroom. Parents of teens don't need a babysitter and their kids are out of their hair as much now as ever. Parents of teens who want schools open are not in need of babysitters. They want their kids to have a normal education. I'm more patient than they are, but questioning the motives of every single one of them is ridiculous
6. Yes so why are people painting the bulk of parents as if they are a tiny percentage of parents who are not even relevant to the conversation. Parents want their kids to have a good education. I have to say that being a youth coach this classification of parents is wholly unfair. Yes, I have had the one or two kids who are dumped at practice or games, who have no interest in the sport, and whose parents I never see. The bulk of the parents, especially when they are young and it is more appropriate, provide a lot of help and support and they come out to support their kids at games. I'd also point out that along with a ton of volunteers throughout the school year, when we have back to school night of all ages, classrooms are packed with parents. You don't get to the room early, you are standing because all the seats are taken and many end up standing in every class. You really don't need to attend in high school, yet they are extremely well attended on a weeknight when many are tired from work or have to leave work early to get there. That is not the behavior of parents looking for babysitters. That is the behavior of parents who care about their kids' education
7. Wasn't the point. You are challenging the motivation of everyone making the argument.
8. Any reasonable educator knows that the parents that backstab them are a small percentage. When you are dealing with 60-300 parents depending on where you teach, there will always be an asshat in the bunch.
9. Yes you do care and you don't tweak anyone. We all know you are a sad, person so desperate for attention that you take pathetic means to circumvent the moderation of a web community that doesn't want you because you have nothing better to do in your life than cry for attention on a tiny portion of the web. When you try and tweak by making false arguments because they are just the opposite of what someone else says, it isn't effective. I just want you to know that everyone knows how fake, sad, and pathetically small the behavior is.

calpoly said:

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sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

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sycasey said:

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SFBear92 said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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sycasey said:

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75bear said:

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I hope you're right.

Yes, my wife is an OUSD Teacher. As an educator, she got a vaccine appt for tomorrow. Some of the staff got appts, but many did not. The issue is supply at this point.

She is one of only a few teachers who teach from school. 90% of the teachers teach from home. Many teachers on staff are terrified of going back in the classroom. Although many are like my wife and were ready to go back months ago.

It's so important to try and get some in-person school before summer - she and I both agree whatever reservations teachers have will be calmed after they are back for 1 week, similar to what every other school district around the country has experienced upon reopening.

OUSD is attempting to have class/subclass playdates at schools in the near future to promote a tiny bit of socialization. I give them credit for trying something, but it's telling they had to come up with an activity idea that didn't involve the teachers or Union agreement and was outside of the Union's jurisdiction (since it's after school hours) to even put this in place.

This is going to be a very uphill climb.

I saw this afternoon that Gabriella Lopez and the SF School Board is starting to backtrack now that they're facing a potential recall. That is a glimmer of hope.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/While-S-F-district-gives-a-school-tour-to-tout-15958291.php

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Most teachers I have spoken with this about also seem generally terrified of going back to in-person learning. Quoting the science to them does nothing to allay these fears (they always have a response about some other study that shows something else or why my referenced studies don't apply to their district). Seems like they're focused on vaccinations or bust. It's a little disturbing to me that so many of our educators are willing to throw scientific consensus out the window when it becomes useful to them personally.

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sycasey, I am not referring to you or any other individual, but I think that anybody who might be making much more than what a teacher makes -- perhaps by multiples -- and is still able to work from home ought to think twice before, in the name of science, calling out teachers for wanting to get vaccinated before they come to work with a bunch of kids who often have yet to develop the self-control to socially distance for consecutive hours.

And this is why I say just vaccinate the teachers that are committing to return this year. Start with the 55+ and those with underlying conditions, then prioritize the rest. I know, I know: Vaccine shortage! Heck, we are sticking a million a week or so in California. Just get the teachers. It can be done and nobody's really going to complain about priorities if it's what gets the schools open again.

---

To be clear, teachers should get priority points. They should definitely be ahead of me in line. If I were a teacher, I would want a vaccine too. However, if I worked at a food processing plant, I'd want a vaccine and the fact that I was forced back to work months ago shouldn't make me go to the back.

Just stick the teachers ignores the fact that everyone you stick is someone else who isn't getting stuck. I'll be honest. I don't know who should go in what order. But it should be based on most susceptible population not most afraid. Susceptible includes both who is physically susceptible and who does tasks that expose them more. Should a healthy 65 year old who can isolate be ahead of a 40 year old teacher? I don't know. Should a teacher be ahead of a cop? I don't know. Food processing employee, I don't know. It isn't just an easy answer to give it to teachers

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There's no easy answer, but here's my priority list in order.

Nurses
Doctors
Nursing home patients
Nursing home staff (cause we gotta nip this nursing home issue)
Teachers and non-teaching staff (because they're as at risk as the teachers - same environment) and we really do need to get the younger kids back in school ASAP
People over 65 who didn't get the vaccine in one of the above groups or have some sort of pre-existing condition that makes them high-risk
Factory workers (meat processing plants, etc - close quarters type of work that has been a big issue)
Prisoners (because the jails have been a problem also)
Retail workers
Contractors (plumbers, construction, etc) - people who can't work remote
People over 50

After that, first come first served cause we're not getting it out fast enough and anybody who wants to take it should take it if there's supply not getting used.

I'm sure I missed something important, but that's off the top of my head.

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Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

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With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

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Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

BTW, look at the CDC guidelines on opening schools. Many of the items are not possible without reduced class sizes which is not possible for most school districts. Why not vaccinate the teachers so they can feel safe?

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Good to see you really have no regard for workers in meat processing plants and their health and well-being. It appears you just want to shovel filet mignon down your pie hole.

See how that reasoning works?

Everyone here wants to give teachers priority. The question is where they fall in that priority. I see my side repeatedly saying that should be based on their relative risk. I see everyone in the other side just yelling about people not caring about teachers. If you thought the relative risk to teachers put them at the top of the list in priority you wouldn't have a problem with what we are saying. You want them at the front of the line because of who they are not their risk. If their risk is higher than another, by all means go first. If not, I can't get behind that.

And, by the way, school districts in California are absolutely addressing reducing class sizes. They are doing it by having kids go to school in pods so at any given time you have half the class in person and half remote. It isn't hard to do.

Please, get the vaccines out as fast as damned possible but you aren't vaccinating one group so they can "feel safe" when another group actually isn't safe.

If a 40 year old elementary school teacher living and working in in an area with low case rates who drives home to a single family dwelling with 4 people of 2 low risk age groups should get the vaccine ahead of someone who works in indoor conditions crowded with adults, who takes public transit home to a relatively poor, high population area to their high density housing building to their apartment where 6-8 people from 3 generations live, I'd like to know the argument for that.

If we wanted to cut the number of deaths down, once we get 65 and older done we'd set up clinics in poor areas with high Covid rates and stick as many people as we can. There is no basis for giving those vaccines to healthy elementary school teachers other than they have more leverage and their lives matter more.

OaktownBear said:

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And, by the way, school districts in California are absolutely addressing reducing class sizes. They are doing it by having kids go to school in pods so at any given time you have half the class in person and half remote. It isn't hard to do.

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New York City has managed to open elementary schools for in-person learning. Atlanta has opened all schools. I have a hard time believing that Oakland really has greater logistical issues than those places.

sycasey said:

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OaktownBear said:

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And, by the way, school districts in California are absolutely addressing reducing class sizes. They are doing it by having kids go to school in pods so at any given time you have half the class in person and half remote. It isn't hard to do.

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New York City has managed to open elementary schools for in-person learning. Atlanta has opened all schools. I have a hard time believing that Oakland really has greater logistical issues than those places.

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So in recent polls the percentage of parents who think we should have all remote learning is 34%. The percentage of teachers who want all remote learning is 34%. The wide chasm in those two numbers is easily explained by parents not giving an eff about their kids or about teachers. The 0% disagreement between parents and teachers is obviously not an indicator that some union leadership and district personnel are complete asshats for attacking parents for holding views that teachers agree with.

63% of teachers who are back in schools doing at least hybrid learning feel comfortable doing so. The polls are basically indicating that teachers who are out are nervous about going back, but once they go back they get over it.

OaktownB said:

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Why do you have teachers ahead of factory workers, prisoners, and retail workers here? What is the evidence that schools are riskier environments than those?

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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With teachers, it's not about risk for me. It's about how once you can make the adults safe at school, it fixes a lot of problems for other people. Families that might have had to have a parent stay at home to watch their child can now pursue non-remote work if they need the extra income. Kids are back getting the social education they need and the personal attention they need.

I'm very concerned about the other people too, but getting the schools back open has to be a top priority.

---

Of course opening schools needs to be a top priority. But where is the evidence saying that they need vaccines to be safe? Virtually every public health organization says that vaccines are not a pre-requisite for safe schools, so why do teachers get to jump the line?

---

Good to see that you really have no regard for the teachers health and well being. It appears that all you care about is getting kids out of the house.

BTW, look at the CDC guidelines on opening schools. Many of the items are not possible without reduced class sizes which is not possible for most school districts. Why not vaccinate the teachers so they can feel safe?

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Good to see you really have no regard for workers in meat processing plants and their health and well-being. It appears you just want to shovel filet mignon down your pie hole.

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The one thing I'm sure of is that I'm the last person who should be in the pecking order. I'm of an age where I could probably get it sooner, but there are plenty of people who deserve it sooner than me.

That said, when the opportunity comes, I'm making the appointment. Not for me, but for everybody else.

A Liberal Thing said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Whining Liberal Parents said:

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sycasey said:

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OaktownBear said:

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sycasey said:

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This kind of response from the secretary for the Oakland teachers union does not make me confident. (She deleted the tweet that's been screenshotted here, but it's definitely real as I saw it last night.)

I'm seeing similar attitudes across more than a few teachers' reps and have seen similar arguments made by folks here (dimitrig), so now I think I know where they're coming from. In the past I have typically supported teachers unions but now I am starting to lose respect. It's one thing to have concerns about safety, quite another to impugn the motives of parents who pay taxes and whose children you are supposed to serve.

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Oakland parents massively supported teachers when they walked out in 2019. It is a shame to see what Covid is doing to the parent - teacher relationship

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I think the unions are being pretty short-sighted here about how much the continued resistance to reopening is damaging their own long-term cause. Liberal parents were their strongest allies, and this is going to fray that relationship the longer it drags on.

In Oregon they have prioritized teachers ahead of even elderly people for vaccines and some of the unions still don't want to go back. This is not reasonable.

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You guys are all so fscking full of shyt.

Parents know the truth about the "support" of liberal parents. Liberal parents whine to the teachers about grades so they can get their kids into the best colleges. Liberal parents whine to the teachers about some small offense that they've taken. Liberal parents will cancel them if they say the wrong thing and try to get them fired.

And liberal parents ain't gonna do jack shyt. What are they going to threaten them with? Vote Republican so that the leaders will enact more anti-union legislation? Even lower pay and benefits? Fsck you guys and your fake concern about teachers. You want your low-paid babysitters back and any concerns you pretend to have for your kid's well-being is the same hot air you blow on every other issue.

I'm so concerned for your mental well being because you've had to be full-time parents for a year. My mom did it for 18. Grow a pair and stop whining about your needs and pretending it's about the kids, cause it's not. As always, it's all about you.

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1. wrapping a poor argument in a bunch of insults and a stupid meme doesn't make it smarter
2. Why is this a liberal thing? Parents of all political persuasions are lobbying for schools to open. It isn't even close to a liberal issue. You just want to bang on liberals because you are at war with liberals.
3. We all know there are bad parents. We all know that some parents will hammer teachers for grades. And most of the parents hate them and wish the school would stand up to them. It is pathetic that some groups are smearing all parents (which, by the way, most of the population is at some point in their lives, with the traits of a cliche stereotype. I guarantee you virtually everyone here has had experience with more than one teacher who is a burnout case or who doesn't give a damn about the students and who you know has a calendar with a bunch of X's on it at home that says "3000 more days to retirement". The fact is that most parents are good parents and most teachers are good teachers, and both care about the education of their children/students.
4. What are liberal parents going to do? Well, I think union leaders ought to consider what they might not do. In 2019 the Oakland teachers walked out after a year of negotiations. Parents and students massively supported them on picket lines and by putting a lot of pressure on the school administration. Teachers got over twice the raise the school district had previously offered. To quote the union president:

Quote:

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The real victory of our historic strike for the schools our students deserve lies in the power and unity we built at our school sites, in our union, and in the city of Oakland," said Keith Brown, president of the Oakland Education Association labor union, during a press conference Friday. "Tens of thousands of Oaklanders of all ages joined us on our picket lines and at our mass rallies and actions

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.Union leaders, as well as school boards feeling pressure, have massively thrown parents under the bus just 2 years after parents stood up for them. They didn't need to do that to make their point. They did the short sighted thing of going in guns blazing on every argument that is right in front of their face without assessing who they need as allies in future battles. I think parents who have been told they don't give a shyte about their kids are not exactly going to march alongside those people the next time they want a pay raise. It is a stupid argument. Most parents love their kids and most people have the experience of being parents. I know teachers and administrators have to deal with crappy parents and I know they are the ones most often in their face, but they also get to deal with the parents who help in the classroom and who help get them all the resources they need when the school won't.
5. Yes there are parents who only care about grades and they whine to teachers to get better grades for their kids. You know what? They are perfectly happy right now. They are mostly parents of high schoolers who don't need supervision and grading for online learning is much easier. Those parents are happy to have the schools stay closed.
6. The hilarious thing about this stereotype about the parents with their nannies is that those parents HAVE NANNIES. They aren't looking for a babysitter. They have one. They don't care about paying them, its chump change to them. Often, they pay the nanny all day anyway and have them do other jobs. Parents who don't want to be with their kids are not the issue. They already aren't.
7. So, do I want cheap babysitting? My kid is a high schooler. I don't need a babysitter. My kid is fine. Would like to see her friends, yes. I've known for months my kid isn't going back in a meaningful way until fall. Doesn't bother me. The risks of going back are greater for high schoolers and the damage of remote learning is not nearly as severe, so I am perfectly fine with keeping high schools closed. In fact, I actively supported letting elementary schools use the high school facilities to increase social distancing if that helped make it safer. Elementary school kids do not learn on zoom. Period. They are being significantly hurt by this and to me that outweighs the minimal risk to elementary school teachers.
8. It goes without saying that opening schools requires proper ventilation, masking, and social distancing as per the CDC guidelines and the vast majority of parents want that as it keeps their kids safe as well as teachers. Unions would have a parent ally in that if they stopped insulting parents. Fact is, though, that most school districts that are trying to open are following those guidelines and putting those measures in place.
9. You are the one blowing hot air. You are at war with liberals so whatever side they take you take the opposite one. Including when that means letting predominantly white, middle class professionals jump the vaccine line over predominantly minority, poorer workers who are at more significant risk because the former has an irrational fear not borne out by scientific studies and the latter is just used to their health and welfare not mattering. The bottom line is that when all the data says indoor restaurants are dangerous, you ignore it (because liberals supposedly want them closed). When all the data says we are going to be in a world of hurt if Americans all have Thanksgiving gatherings, you ignore it because you want to stuff turkey down your neck and then when the death rate quadruples you stick by your guns. In every other Covid shut down situation you have said prove it, prove it, prove it despite mountains of evidence. The one time you say, no, don't need to prove it is the one time their is tons of evidence that the activity is safe. But, basically sycasey and I are on this side of the argument, so in order to call us fakes, you have to go opposite to everything you have said. You love to throw the words fake and fraud around and you are the fraud. You stand for nothing except the opposite of what others say. You like Jo Rowling so much. She has you pegged. You are a boggart. You can't take a form except in relation to the individual in front of you.

Most parents love their kids. They like to be with their kids. When their kids are in school they still parent them 19 hours a day. They want their kids in school to get an education. They supported closing schools last spring when it made sense. Now the data is extremely clear in the case of elementary schools that the risk is low and the harm is great. The unions, school boards, and educators who have chosen to portray parents in this light in order to win an argument are in for some very uncomfortable times. And by the way, most haven't done that. IMO, those that have should be sent packing. Hard to see how people who have such little respect for the families in their district are qualified to have any say in the direction our education takes.

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1. Some people deserve the insults.
2. sycasey made it a liberal thing.
3. The percentage of teachers who are burnouts is much lower than the percentage of parents who are genuinely concerned about their kids and the welfare and safety of teachers. As a child of a teacher, you may not know that many teachers. I've spent decades working with teachers, so I know the profession quite well.
4. No offense, but you need the support of the teachers far more than they need your support. They were throwing you a bone to make you seem important.
5. They are not happy. They don't want to have to deal with their teenagers either.
6. Most people who have nannies also have their kids in private schools.
7. I was responding to sycasey, not you.
8. Teachers have years of being backstabbed by parents. Don't play the angel card. Every teacher knows the biggest pain in the ass of their job is dealing with parents.
9. DNGAF about whatever you wrote in #9. I don't care what you think my motivations are. I'm just here to tweak you hypocrites and if you don't like it, tough shyt. Thanks for the wall of text though.

Sincerely,

Loyal hanky1 supporter (who also does a great job of telling you all to fsck yourselves)

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So... how's that kneecapping part look now lol

sycasey said:

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This is going to blow up now.

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Follow-up: they all resigned.

OaktownBear said:

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sycasey said:

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OaktownBear said:

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And, by the way, school districts in California are absolutely addressing reducing class sizes. They are doing it by having kids go to school in pods so at any given time you have half the class in person and half remote. It isn't hard to do.

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New York City has managed to open elementary schools for in-person learning. Atlanta has opened all schools. I have a hard time believing that Oakland really has greater logistical issues than those places.

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So in recent polls the percentage of parents who think we should have all remote learning is 34%. The percentage of teachers who want all remote learning is 34%. The wide chasm in those two numbers is easily explained by parents not giving an eff about their kids or about teachers. The 0% disagreement between parents and teachers is obviously not an indicator that some union leadership and district personnel are complete asshats for attacking parents for holding views that teachers agree with.

63% of teachers who are back in schools doing at least hybrid learning feel comfortable doing so. The polls are basically indicating that teachers who are out are nervous about going back, but once they go back they get over it.

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The teachers' union position is reminding me a little bit of the BART union and the strike in 2013. They massively overestimated how much the public would support them, while making minimal effort to make their case to the public and creating a massive disruption to a lot of people's lives. If anything the public has been a lot more forgiving of the teachers and their position here, but there are still limits and I think they're being reached. It doesn't seem like the union leaders realize that yet.

When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

Anarchistbear said:

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Hey now you are kneecapping all your posts (past - here on out)
Lol

going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Why don't you tell us what that is?

sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Why don't you tell us what that is?

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I'm guessing his pink elephant is that there are a couple people posting the same racist, sorry, prejudiced, crap that he posted about White parents and he thinks that somehow justifies it. Here's a clue. The main one doing it is Yogi who has stopped having any value whatsoever in a conversation and is just trying to be as offensive as possible because he has to keep upping the ante to get any attention because he is boring.

OaktownBear said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Why don't you tell us what that is?

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I'm guessing his pink elephant is that there are a couple people posting the same racist, sorry, prejudiced, crap that he posted about White parents and he thinks that somehow justifies it.

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OaktownBear said:

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sycasey said:

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going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Why don't you tell us what that is?

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I'm guessing his pink elephant is that there are a couple people posting the same racist, sorry, prejudiced, crap that he posted about White parents and he thinks that somehow justifies it. Here's a clue. The main one doing it is Yogi who has stopped having any value whatsoever in a conversation and is just trying to be as offensive as possible because he has to keep upping the ante to get any attention because he is boring.

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Yeah, I just have little interest in continuing to respond to Yogi's boring provocations.

going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Why are you beating around the bush?

Well, I had to take a 48 hour break from BI, as parenting got in the way (can't WAIT to get those kids out of the house. lol). Lots of fun stuff in my brief absence! A couple of notes...

1. OaktownBear, I can't really disagree with most of what you have posted here this week, including your reply to me about the difficult vaccination priorities. Nevertheless, I am still going to advocate for offering teachers vaccinations first, and then reopening the schools. A good compromise, as many have alluded to, is to get the "susceptible" teachers stuck right away and also to open the elementary schools (less transmission, more need) ASAP. I'm fine with that, to start.

Once teachers are vaccinated, it pretty much forces their hand. LOL the teacher(s) in Portland who said vaccinating teachers seemed like a "trap" to get them back to work: Well, yes, if you want to word of it that way.

1a. The vaccinate-the-darn-teachers! program seems to be making progress, as my wife got the Pfizer this morning at the Oakland Coliseum. She has no "priority points" other than being a teacher. So, good! Progress!

2. At the risk of getting into esoterica with OaktownBear, the Oakland Teachers strike was not really a huge win for the teachers. It was a deal cobbled together so that the teachers could claim victory and save face. Their demand for XX% raise was stretched three years into the future and backloaded like crazy. It was like if you usually get a 2% raise every year and you demanded 10% total for last year (retroactive), this year and next year and the offer you ended up accepting was 10%, but for next year, the year after and the year after that (even worse, because of the backloading). Sure, the leaders of the Oakland Teachers Association crowed about what a big victory it was in order to paint themselves in a positive light, covering up the fact that it was basically a fools' errand to go on strike in a district that flat-out didn't have the money to meet the teachers' demands. Still, they got something greater than their initial offer, but NOTHING like it was trumped up as.

It's true that if teachers ever expect to get better compensation, they need to continue to win the battle for public opinion. Either that, or there needs to be a massive windfall in state revenue (haha, more likely the reverse).

SFBear92 said:

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going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Why are you beating around the bush?

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What's the difference between a genealogist and a gynecologist?

Teacher unions should be abolished. Put it as a ballot measure and it'll pass in CA with +70% support.

Actually, I am in favor of banning all public unions...teachers, police, firefighters, etc...

hanky1 said:

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Teacher unions should be abolished. Put it as a ballot measure and it'll pass in CA with +70% support.

Actually, I am in favor of banning all public unions...teachers, police, firefighters, etc...

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Why shouldn't teachers be able to organize to further their interests? If their positions are unreasonable or unaffordable, just don't accede to them.


Vaccinate and then Reopen!

going4roses said:

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When is this thread going stop skirting around the gigantic pink elephant ?...

Just wondering

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Help minorities who don't know how to use the internet to get vaccinated?

Big C said:

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hanky1 said:

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Teacher unions should be abolished. Put it as a ballot measure and it'll pass in CA with +70% support.

Actually, I am in favor of banning all public unions...teachers, police, firefighters, etc...

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Why shouldn't teachers be able to organize to further their interests? If their positions are unreasonable or unaffordable, just don't accede to them.


Vaccinate and then Reopen!

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Because the people on the other side of the negotiating table are not negotiating with their own money, they are politicians negotiating for votes. It is a perverse market relationship, just like jacking up electrical rates in a snowstorm is a perverse market relationship.

I'm not sure I agree with banning all public sector unions but they need to be reined in, particularly police and corrections.

dajo9 said:

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Big C said:

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hanky1 said:

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Teacher unions should be abolished. Put it as a ballot measure and it'll pass in CA with +70% support.

Actually, I am in favor of banning all public unions...teachers, police, firefighters, etc...

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Why shouldn't teachers be able to organize to further their interests? If their positions are unreasonable or unaffordable, just don't accede to them.


Vaccinate and then Reopen!

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Because the people on the other side of the negotiating table are not negotiating with their own money, they are politicians negotiating for votes. It is a perverse market relationship, just like jacking up electrical rates in a snowstorm is a perverse market relationship.

I'm not sure I agree with banning all public sector unions but they need to be reined in, particularly police and corrections.

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I'm not necessarily for abolishing public sector unions either, but it's worth noting that when they're being unreasonable it often takes a massive public outcry to get changes rolling, from people who I'm sure would otherwise prefer not to worry about it. The incentives definitely seem off.