AunBear89 said:

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going4roses said:

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Racism … has been around as long as the human race ?

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I understand your point, I believe. In the very beginning it would be more accurate to call it tribalism. It evolved to xenophobia and racism over time as humans spread out and started to adapt to and settle in new environments.

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Sebastabear said:

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I just want to know if this invasion is over yet. Because first I heard it was never going to happen, then I heard that Putin would stop in the Eastern provinces and of course these same folks now tell me that he'll be done once he takes Ukraine. And it's really all our fault this is happening, because we allowed Ukraine to apply for NATO membership 14 years ago. The fact that those plans were shelved a couple of decades past is irrelevant.

Bottom line sometimes a cigar is a cigar and the sometimes the "fault" lies with the autocratic nut sitting at the end of the 90 foot table who is willing to kills tens of thousands and displace millions to recreate Czarist Russia. It's not Milton Friedman and it's not Ronald Reagan and it's not the Easter Bunny. Not sure we need to really work too hard to figure this one out.

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okaydo said:

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I hope this will stop Tucker from carrying water for the Biden administration.

Tucker says he was wrong about Ukraine and blames Biden and Harris for him being wrong pic.twitter.com/Eal5p8hdMu

— Acyn (@Acyn) March 4, 2022

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Big C said:

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Sebastabear said:

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I just want to know if this invasion is over yet. Because first I heard it was never going to happen, then I heard that Putin would stop in the Eastern provinces and of course these same folks now tell me that he'll be done once he takes Ukraine. And it's really all our fault this is happening, because we allowed Ukraine to apply for NATO membership 14 years ago. The fact that those plans were shelved a couple of decades past is irrelevant.

Bottom line sometimes a cigar is a cigar and the sometimes the "fault" lies with the autocratic nut sitting at the end of the 90 foot table who is willing to kills tens of thousands and displace millions to recreate Czarist Russia. It's not Milton Friedman and it's not Ronald Reagan and it's not the Easter Bunny. Not sure we need to really work too hard to figure this one out.

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Sebastabear, just in case you might've been referencing anything that I posted in the last week or so, please let me be clear on the following...

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

It's like if my daughter went out wearing a "provocative" outfit and a bad guy did something to her. The bad guy would be 100% at fault; my daughter 0%. Still, I would advise her to probably not be dressing like that next time.


Now we're all in quite the pickle: Putin seems mad -- in multiple senses of the word -- and doesn't seem like he's going to back down, lest he lose face. Rather, he will probably keep doubling down. What's the end game? I shudder to think:

The best thing right now that seems reasonably possible would be if people in his own country decide to take him out. Surely he is not the only person in Russia who has significant power and influence.

Another possibility would be if he is rational enough to realize he totally screwed up and accepts some sort of settlement that seems like it allows him to save face.

A third, worse possibility is a protracted fruitless Russian occupation of Ukraine, lasting until Putin is deposed.

Everything else seems worse, unless . . . anybody got any great ideas?

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Big C said:

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Sebastabear said:

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I just want to know if this invasion is over yet. Because first I heard it was never going to happen, then I heard that Putin would stop in the Eastern provinces and of course these same folks now tell me that he'll be done once he takes Ukraine. And it's really all our fault this is happening, because we allowed Ukraine to apply for NATO membership 14 years ago. The fact that those plans were shelved a couple of decades past is irrelevant.

Bottom line sometimes a cigar is a cigar and the sometimes the "fault" lies with the autocratic nut sitting at the end of the 90 foot table who is willing to kills tens of thousands and displace millions to recreate Czarist Russia. It's not Milton Friedman and it's not Ronald Reagan and it's not the Easter Bunny. Not sure we need to really work too hard to figure this one out.

---

Sebastabear, just in case you might've been referencing anything that I posted in the last week or so, please let me be clear on the following...

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

It's like if my daughter went out wearing a "provocative" outfit and a bad guy did something to her. The bad guy would be 100% at fault; my daughter 0%. Still, I would advise her to probably not be dressing like that next time.


Now we're all in quite the pickle: Putin seems mad -- in multiple senses of the word -- and doesn't seem like he's going to back down, lest he lose face. Rather, he will probably keep doubling down. What's the end game? I shudder to think:

The best thing right now that seems reasonably possible would be if people in his own country decide to take him out. Surely he is not the only person in Russia who has significant power and influence.

Another possibility would be if he is rational enough to realize he totally screwed up and accepts some sort of settlement that seems like it allows him to save face.

A third, worse possibility is a protracted fruitless Russian occupation of Ukraine, lasting until Putin is deposed.

Everything else seems worse, unless . . . anybody got any great ideas?

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How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Cold War?

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Sebastabear said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Interesting perspective from downtown Kyiv.

Zelenskyy admin forcibly conscripting men 18-60 to be martyrs, in an attempt to draw U.S. public & military into direct conflict.

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Oh for the love of God. Pure Russia propaganda. America's way of conducting war is "despicable" and because we go in and "destroy everything" and then just mop up the remainder? Whereas Russia is really ethical here because they are trying to capture everything and keep it intact? I'm going to throw up.

This power mad lunatic invaded a completely peaceful neighbor and is now dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets (both the use of cluster bombs and the targeting of civilians being war crimes by the way). There are videos of it all over the internet. You don't even need to look hard. And this Pravda tool is going to legitimately sit there and say with a straight face how Russia doesn't "want" to hurt the civilians of Ukraine? How Russia is not targeting civilian targets at all, and even the military ones are being targeted with "caution"? Oh and by the way, the invasion is going great for Russia and proceeding rapidly.

And that's without getting into the nonsense of Zelensky "forcing" Ukrainians to fight to make them martyrs.

What a bunch of unadulterated crap. Please identify one word of this that didn't come from Russia state television. This guy is obviously on Putin's payroll.

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Sebastabear said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Sebastabear said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Interesting perspective from downtown Kyiv.

Zelenskyy admin forcibly conscripting men 18-60 to be martyrs, in an attempt to draw U.S. public & military into direct conflict.

---

Oh for the love of God. Pure Russia propaganda. America's way of conducting war is "despicable" and because we go in and "destroy everything" and then just mop up the remainder? Whereas Russia is really ethical here because they are trying to capture everything and keep it intact? I'm going to throw up.

This power mad lunatic invaded a completely peaceful neighbor and is now dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets (both the use of cluster bombs and the targeting of civilians being war crimes by the way). There are videos of it all over the internet. You don't even need to look hard. And this Pravda tool is going to legitimately sit there and say with a straight face how Russia doesn't "want" to hurt the civilians of Ukraine? How Russia is not targeting civilian targets at all, and even the military ones are being targeted with "caution"? Oh and by the way, the invasion is going great for Russia and proceeding rapidly.

And that's without getting into the nonsense of Zelensky "forcing" Ukrainians to fight to make them martyrs.

What a bunch of unadulterated crap. Please identify one word of this that didn't come from Russia state television. This guy is obviously on Putin's payroll.

---

Hopefully NYT is sufficiently "credible" for you.

In Ukraine, The Men Who Must Stay and Fight

"As hundreds of thousands of citizens flee the Russian advance, the country's government has ordered men ages 18 to 60 to remain."

As for the guy "obviously on Putin's payroll," please provide evidence.

Please also consider that many of the Neocons, pundits, and lobbyists who lied us into our illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003 are pushing for a no-fly zone, and more direct U.S./NATO involvement, and even calling for "regime change" in Russia. The U.S. propaganda machine is running at full throttle.

Even on this forum, where I value the free exchange of ideas, anyone who brings up the history leading to today's events is labeled a "traitor." My goodness, what has happened to us, and to our alma mater, the University of California, home of the Free Speech movement?

As the invasion goes on, it becomes more apparent that "regime change" was the long-term U.S. strategy all along.

As I've said before, Putin is my enemy - AND - the Neocons who've declared their desire for U.S. global military hegemony in the "New American Century" are also my enemy, because they're acting for their own financial benefit, not for your or my "defense."

"In war, truth is the first casualty." -- Aeschylus

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The fact that Ukraine ordered men 18-60 to stay and fight is not in dispute in the least. The idea however that this was done with the express purpose to create martyrs and therefore draw the US and NATO into the conflict is science fiction. How about we go with Occam's razor and conclude that the Ukrainian government wanted the men stay and fight because their country was being invaded and they needed people to . . . fight. And I'm pretty sure they didn't have to push too hard on most of those guys and not a few women either. Seems like free people react badly to being invaded by a totalitarian neighbor. Imagine that.

As I seem to have misplaced my copies of his paystubs from the Kremlin so I will modify my assertion that your source is obviously on Putin's payroll to say that he is either an idiot or on Putin's payroll. Better? I think the men's health guru/ "relationships are only for procreation" thesis would indicate the former but I'm not giving up on the idea both could be true. In any invents his "insights" and perspective on a significant geopolitical conflict are pure rubbish.

His imbecility of course is obvious during the first two minutes of the video where he proceeded to make a dozen blatantly false statements in a row, including how the US "despicably" and indiscriminately bombed targets in Syria and Iraq. while the Russians are being "careful" and being sure to avoid civilians altogether. Sure. I guess Zelensky staged all those blown up apartment buildings and videos of cluster bombs dropping on civilians to make Putin look bad. And the eyewitnesses on the news every night are a bunch of Sandy Hook crisis actors.

You are free to make your points and I would indeed lay down my life to defend that right. But I think those of us who disagree are equally free to point out your source spewed a bunch of blatant lies and the prediction track record to date of those on your side of the transom during this conflict has not been great.

And this isn't about jingoism or defending "America." If "America" were on Putin's side here I'd be equally outraged about what Putin's doing. Probably more so. This is about those of us who don't want to sit back and watch the darkest moments of the 20th Century port over into the 21st.

tl;dr Putin is an evil nut. Not everything in the world is America's fault. Both things can be true and here they are.

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Big C said:

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Sebastabear said:

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I

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This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

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Big C said:

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cbbass1 said:

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Sebastabear said:

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cbbass1 said:

---

Sebastabear said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

Interesting perspective from downtown Kyiv.

Zelenskyy admin forcibly conscripting men 18-60 to be martyrs, in an attempt to draw U.S. public & military into direct conflict.

---

Oh for the love of God. Pure Russia propaganda. America's way of conducting war is "despicable" and because we go in and "destroy everything" and then just mop up the remainder? Whereas Russia is really ethical here because they are trying to capture everything and keep it intact? I'm going to throw up.

This power mad lunatic invaded a completely peaceful neighbor and is now dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets (both the use of cluster bombs and the targeting of civilians being war crimes by the way). There are videos of it all over the internet. You don't even need to look hard. And this Pravda tool is going to legitimately sit there and say with a straight face how Russia doesn't "want" to hurt the civilians of Ukraine? How Russia is not targeting civilian targets at all, and even the military ones are being targeted with "caution"? Oh and by the way, the invasion is going great for Russia and proceeding rapidly.

And that's without getting into the nonsense of Zelensky "forcing" Ukrainians to fight to make them martyrs.

What a bunch of unadulterated crap. Please identify one word of this that didn't come from Russia state television. This guy is obviously on Putin's payroll.

---

Hopefully NYT is sufficiently "credible" for you.

In Ukraine, The Men Who Must Stay and Fight

"As hundreds of thousands of citizens flee the Russian advance, the country's government has ordered men ages 18 to 60 to remain."

As for the guy "obviously on Putin's payroll," please provide evidence.

Please also consider that many of the Neocons, pundits, and lobbyists who lied us into our illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003 are pushing for a no-fly zone, and more direct U.S./NATO involvement, and even calling for "regime change" in Russia. The U.S. propaganda machine is running at full throttle.

Even on this forum, where I value the free exchange of ideas, anyone who brings up the history leading to today's events is labeled a "traitor." My goodness, what has happened to us, and to our alma mater, the University of California, home of the Free Speech movement?

As the invasion goes on, it becomes more apparent that "regime change" was the long-term U.S. strategy all along.

As I've said before, Putin is my enemy - AND - the Neocons who've declared their desire for U.S. global military hegemony in the "New American Century" are also my enemy, because they're acting for their own financial benefit, not for your or my "defense."

"In war, truth is the first casualty." -- Aeschylus

---

The fact that Ukraine ordered men 18-60 to stay and fight is not in dispute in the least. The idea however that this was done with the express purpose to create martyrs and therefore draw the US and NATO into the conflict is science fiction. How about we go with Occam's razor and conclude that the Ukrainian government wanted the men stay and fight because their country was being invaded and they needed people to . . . fight. And I'm pretty sure they didn't have to push too hard on most of those guys and not a few women either. Seems like free people react badly to being invaded by a totalitarian neighbor. Imagine that.

As I seem to have misplaced my copies of his paystubs from the Kremlin so I will modify my assertion that your source is obviously on Putin's payroll to say that he is either an idiot or on Putin's payroll. Better? I think the men's health guru/ "relationships are only for procreation" thesis would indicate the former but I'm not giving up on the idea both could be true. In any invents his "insights" and perspective on a significant geopolitical conflict are pure rubbish.

His imbecility of course is obvious during the first two minutes of the video where he proceeded to make a dozen blatantly false statements in a row, including how the US "despicably" and indiscriminately bombed targets in Syria and Iraq. while the Russians are being "careful" and being sure to avoid civilians altogether. Sure. I guess Zelensky staged all those blown up apartment buildings and videos of cluster bombs dropping on civilians to make Putin look bad. And the eyewitnesses on the news every night are a bunch of Sandy Hook crisis actors.

You are free to make your points and I would indeed lay down my life to defend that right. But I think those of us who disagree are equally free to point out your source spewed a bunch of blatant lies and the prediction track record to date of those on your side of the transom during this conflict has not been great.

And this isn't about jingoism or defending "America." If "America" were on Putin's side here I'd be equally outraged about what Putin's doing. Probably more so. This is about those of us who don't want to sit back and watch the darkest moments of the 20th Century port over into the 21st.

tl;dr Putin is an evil nut. Not everything in the world is America's fault. Both things can be true and here they are.

---

I hope you can see the inconsistency between "free people" and mandatory conscription. Requesting citizens to fight is one thing; compulsion is another thing altogether. He's turning citizens from unarmed civilians into combatants, whether they want to or not.

If you think that the Ukrainian conscripts have any chance at all against the full Russian military, well, we'll see in about a month. How long do you think it'll be before we see the bodies of Ukrainian conscripts on Facebook & Twitter, along with demands for U.S. military support? Time will tell.

Zelenskyy is doing everything he can to pull the U.S./NATO into the conflict. He, and the people of Ukraine, have been sold a bill of goods by the U.S. Neocons, and way too many otherwise innocent civilians are going to die as a result.

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Yeah, he's defending his country, which is being invaded, with everything he has.

The irony of this is that, no matter how this comes out, Putin has pretty much insured that Ukraine isn't going to want ANYTHING to do with Russia for at least the next generation or two, if not more. However much Ukraine didn't like Russia (not so much 25-30 years ago, but more and more the past 15-20 years, I would argue), now the dislike has turned into genuine hatred and has increased by many orders of magnitude.

Further irony: I can picture Putin as someone who would like to have a historical legacy as a great leader. Oops.

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cbbass1 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Big C said:

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Sebastabear said:

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I

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This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

---

I have a good friend who is a Cal alum who came here from the Ukraine.

He will tell you that our State Department got filled up with a bunch of Poli-Sci bozos from Georgetown during the last couple of Administrations, and they and the United States allowed this to happen. Rather than PUNCH Putin in the mouth (which is the only thing that he understands) they/we did absolutely NOTHING. No sanctions under Bush when Georgia was invaded. No sanctions under Obama when Crimea was invaded. Obama drew a line in the sand when it came to nerve gas in Syria . . . and once again, DID NOTHING.

Meanwhile, NATO makes every excuse in the book not to even initiate a No Fly Zone.

It's almost like NATO wants this genocide to occur so that the next country that Putin wants to invade (like Kazakhstan) will siimply lay down and roll-over, not wanting to be bombed into oblivion like the barbaric Putin is doing now to Ukraine.

With each passing day, NATO's becoming more of a joke than the Tom Holmoe years of Cal Football.

---

You want the U.S. to PUNCH Putin in the mouth (i.e., U.S. enforcing a no-fly zone, or a direct U.S. attack on Russian troops)??

You do realize that he's got enough nuclear weapons to incinerate a pretty good share of the human race, right?

A punch in the mouth is all that HE understands???

He's been saying, since 2008, that he considers having NATO bases and weapons in neighboring countries (Ukraine, Georgia) an existential threat.

I think you're projecting.

I think that it's our own foreign policy leaders who aren't listening. Unfortunately, a PUNCH in the mouth seems to be all that WE understand.

This is why I'm concerned about nuclear weapons.

Those poli-sci bozos from Georgetown have spent $billions filling Western Ukrainians with false hope, telling them that they'll give them $$$, weapons, and millions of FB Likes if they'll punch the Russian bear in the nose. That's all fine, but those Georgetown boys aren't the ones who are going to be taking the 14.5mm rounds.

Like I said before -- be careful what you wish for.

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dimitrig said:

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cbbass1 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Big C said:

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Sebastabear said:

---

I

---

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

---

I have a good friend who is a Cal alum who came here from the Ukraine.

He will tell you that our State Department got filled up with a bunch of Poli-Sci bozos from Georgetown during the last couple of Administrations, and they and the United States allowed this to happen. Rather than PUNCH Putin in the mouth (which is the only thing that he understands) they/we did absolutely NOTHING. No sanctions under Bush when Georgia was invaded. No sanctions under Obama when Crimea was invaded. Obama drew a line in the sand when it came to nerve gas in Syria . . . and once again, DID NOTHING.

Meanwhile, NATO makes every excuse in the book not to even initiate a No Fly Zone.

It's almost like NATO wants this genocide to occur so that the next country that Putin wants to invade (like Kazakhstan) will siimply lay down and roll-over, not wanting to be bombed into oblivion like the barbaric Putin is doing now to Ukraine.

With each passing day, NATO's becoming more of a joke than the Tom Holmoe years of Cal Football.

---

You want the U.S. to PUNCH Putin in the mouth (i.e., U.S. enforcing a no-fly zone, or a direct U.S. attack on Russian troops)??

You do realize that he's got enough nuclear weapons to incinerate a pretty good share of the human race, right?

A punch in the mouth is all that HE understands???

He's been saying, since 2008, that he considers having NATO bases and weapons in neighboring countries (Ukraine, Georgia) an existential threat.

I think you're projecting.

I think that it's our own foreign policy leaders who aren't listening. Unfortunately, a PUNCH in the mouth seems to be all that WE understand.

This is why I'm concerned about nuclear weapons.

Those poli-sci bozos from Georgetown have spent $billions filling Western Ukrainians with false hope, telling them that they'll give them $$$, weapons, and millions of FB Likes if they'll punch the Russian bear in the nose. That's all fine, but those Georgetown boys aren't the ones who are going to be taking the 14.5mm rounds.

Like I said before -- be careful what you wish for.

---

From what I've seen of Russia's so-called offensive and the morale of their military I'm not concerned about their nuclear threat at all.

They should be concerned about ours.

However, the US has decided that Ukraine isn't the country to test that theory with. We don't care that deeply.

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Big C said:

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dimitrig said:

---

cbbass1 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sebastabear said:

---

I

---

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

---

I have a good friend who is a Cal alum who came here from the Ukraine.

He will tell you that our State Department got filled up with a bunch of Poli-Sci bozos from Georgetown during the last couple of Administrations, and they and the United States allowed this to happen. Rather than PUNCH Putin in the mouth (which is the only thing that he understands) they/we did absolutely NOTHING. No sanctions under Bush when Georgia was invaded. No sanctions under Obama when Crimea was invaded. Obama drew a line in the sand when it came to nerve gas in Syria . . . and once again, DID NOTHING.

Meanwhile, NATO makes every excuse in the book not to even initiate a No Fly Zone.

It's almost like NATO wants this genocide to occur so that the next country that Putin wants to invade (like Kazakhstan) will siimply lay down and roll-over, not wanting to be bombed into oblivion like the barbaric Putin is doing now to Ukraine.

With each passing day, NATO's becoming more of a joke than the Tom Holmoe years of Cal Football.

---

You want the U.S. to PUNCH Putin in the mouth (i.e., U.S. enforcing a no-fly zone, or a direct U.S. attack on Russian troops)??

You do realize that he's got enough nuclear weapons to incinerate a pretty good share of the human race, right?

A punch in the mouth is all that HE understands???

He's been saying, since 2008, that he considers having NATO bases and weapons in neighboring countries (Ukraine, Georgia) an existential threat.

I think you're projecting.

I think that it's our own foreign policy leaders who aren't listening. Unfortunately, a PUNCH in the mouth seems to be all that WE understand.

This is why I'm concerned about nuclear weapons.

Those poli-sci bozos from Georgetown have spent $billions filling Western Ukrainians with false hope, telling them that they'll give them $$$, weapons, and millions of FB Likes if they'll punch the Russian bear in the nose. That's all fine, but those Georgetown boys aren't the ones who are going to be taking the 14.5mm rounds.

Like I said before -- be careful what you wish for.

---

From what I've seen of Russia's so-called offensive and the morale of their military I'm not concerned about their nuclear threat at all.

They should be concerned about ours.

However, the US has decided that Ukraine isn't the country to test that theory with. We don't care that deeply.

---

Wow . . . I am concerned about theirs and ours. I'm hoping neither side would go first and I'm almost positive, if one side did, it wouldn't be us.

Realpolitik.

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I’ve only rarely sung this song in the many years since it was written, because I never thought it would be relevant again … https://t.co/sC7Sd2fhYG Cello: @RamiroBelgardt

— Sting (@OfficialSting) March 5, 2022

bearister said:

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I’ve only rarely sung this song in the many years since it was written, because I never thought it would be relevant again … https://t.co/sC7Sd2fhYG Cello: @RamiroBelgardt

— Sting (@OfficialSting) March 5, 2022

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