sycasey said:

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Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

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But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

---

Russia scuttled the peace talks by massacring civilians in Bucha.

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

---

Russia scuttled the peace talks by massacring civilians in Bucha.

---

Ukraine war: Peace talks still on despite 'genocide', Zelensky says

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60987350

Responding to a question from the BBC on whether it was still possible to talk peace with Russia, Mr Zelensky said: "Yes, because Ukraine must have peace. We are in Europe in the 21st Century. We will continue efforts diplomatically and militarily."

US President Joe Biden repeated his accusation that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was a war criminal and said Washington would call for a war crimes trial. "This guy is brutal. And what's happening in Bucha is outrageous, and everyone's seen it," Mr Biden said.

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

---

Russia scuttled the peace talks by massacring civilians in Bucha.

---

Ukraine war: Peace talks still on despite 'genocide', Zelensky says

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60987350

Responding to a question from the BBC on whether it was still possible to talk peace with Russia, Mr Zelensky said: "Yes, because Ukraine must have peace. We are in Europe in the 21st Century. We will continue efforts diplomatically and militarily."

US President Joe Biden repeated his accusation that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was a war criminal and said Washington would call for a war crimes trial. "This guy is brutal. And what's happening in Bucha is outrageous, and everyone's seen it," Mr Biden said.

---

Ukraine official negotiating with Russia said the peace talks turned darker after evidence emerged of a massacre in Bucha

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-peace-negotiator-says-mood-peace-talks-changed-bucha-russia-2022-4

And Ukraine has been losing an average of over 1,000 casualties a day in a war they cannot win, a war they could have avoided entirely by abiding by the Minsk Agreements, or by taking the favorable Istanbul peace treaty terms nearly 2 years (and 550,000 lives) ago.

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

---

Russia scuttled the peace talks by massacring civilians in Bucha.

---

Ukraine war: Peace talks still on despite 'genocide', Zelensky says

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60987350

Responding to a question from the BBC on whether it was still possible to talk peace with Russia, Mr Zelensky said: "Yes, because Ukraine must have peace. We are in Europe in the 21st Century. We will continue efforts diplomatically and militarily."

US President Joe Biden repeated his accusation that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was a war criminal and said Washington would call for a war crimes trial. "This guy is brutal. And what's happening in Bucha is outrageous, and everyone's seen it," Mr Biden said.

---

Ukraine official negotiating with Russia said the peace talks turned darker after evidence emerged of a massacre in Bucha

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-peace-negotiator-says-mood-peace-talks-changed-bucha-russia-2022-4

---

and?

---

I was going to say the same thing about your news link, but figured I'd counter with my own. Obviously none of us were in the negotiating room so we don't know exactly what killed the talks (perhaps a variety of factors). But it seems like the downturn lines up pretty well with Bucha, and people who were involved say that was when prospects for a possible peace deal turned south.

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Unlike you, I have never said Russia is a good guy the way you have about the United States. That's what makes your position so laughable. But because you boxed yourself in that corner, you have had to pretend that the facts that came out, that the U.S. promised not to move NATO further eastward (and lied) and blew up a peace deal that could have saved hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives don't exist and that just makes you a clown on this topic.

oski003 said:

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Russia claimed that the U.S. staged the massacre to try to incite anger and as another way to scuttle the peace talks. While I highly doubt the U S. staged the massacre, this does show they had interest in making peace, even if it wasn't the terms the U.S. wanted (give up territory, declare Putin a war criminal).

---

Losers don't get to dictate the terms of surrender, a point the United States continues to forget.

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

---

Russia scuttled the peace talks by massacring civilians in Bucha.

---

Ukraine war: Peace talks still on despite 'genocide', Zelensky says

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60987350

Responding to a question from the BBC on whether it was still possible to talk peace with Russia, Mr Zelensky said: "Yes, because Ukraine must have peace. We are in Europe in the 21st Century. We will continue efforts diplomatically and militarily."

US President Joe Biden repeated his accusation that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was a war criminal and said Washington would call for a war crimes trial. "This guy is brutal. And what's happening in Bucha is outrageous, and everyone's seen it," Mr Biden said.

---

Ukraine official negotiating with Russia said the peace talks turned darker after evidence emerged of a massacre in Bucha

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-peace-negotiator-says-mood-peace-talks-changed-bucha-russia-2022-4

---

and?

---

I was going to say the same thing about your news link, but figured I'd counter with my own. Obviously none of us were in the negotiating room so we don't know exactly what killed the talks (perhaps a variety of factors). But it seems like the downturn lines up pretty well with Bucha, and people who were involved say that was when prospects for a possible peace deal turned south.

---

Russia claimed that the U.S. staged the massacre to try to incite anger and as another way to scuttle the peace talks. While I highly doubt the U S. staged the massacre, this does show they had interest in making peace, even if it wasn't the terms the U.S. wanted (give up territory, declare Putin a war criminal).

---

It's Ukraine who has to sign the peace deal, not the US.

One of the most poisonous tactics of neocons is to declare every new US enemy as Hitler. Thus, anyone who opposes any one of the multiple US wars is Chamberlain.

They know only one historical event. And so of course Dems now think this way, because neocons are their leaders: https://t.co/zaKzrignVl

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) February 5, 2024

This ignores the reality that many people in Ukraine, after watching an entire generation of men be sent to the front to die as cannon fodder, don't want to sacrifice themselves or their families in a war that is and was always going to end through diplomacy. pic.twitter.com/OKidRaeqF1

— Chuck (Taylor's Version) (@Jamie_Maz) February 5, 2024

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Did Genocide Joe say Russia's response was proportionate? My understanding is that Russia and Ukraine could have settled this almost a million lives ago, but the U.S. scuttled the peace talks.

---

Russia scuttled the peace talks by massacring civilians in Bucha.

---

Ukraine war: Peace talks still on despite 'genocide', Zelensky says

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60987350

Responding to a question from the BBC on whether it was still possible to talk peace with Russia, Mr Zelensky said: "Yes, because Ukraine must have peace. We are in Europe in the 21st Century. We will continue efforts diplomatically and militarily."

US President Joe Biden repeated his accusation that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was a war criminal and said Washington would call for a war crimes trial. "This guy is brutal. And what's happening in Bucha is outrageous, and everyone's seen it," Mr Biden said.

---

Ukraine official negotiating with Russia said the peace talks turned darker after evidence emerged of a massacre in Bucha

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-peace-negotiator-says-mood-peace-talks-changed-bucha-russia-2022-4

---

and?

---

I was going to say the same thing about your news link, but figured I'd counter with my own. Obviously none of us were in the negotiating room so we don't know exactly what killed the talks (perhaps a variety of factors). But it seems like the downturn lines up pretty well with Bucha, and people who were involved say that was when prospects for a possible peace deal turned south.

---

We do know what killed the talks, it was reported by at least one member of the Ukrainian delegation, and several neutral mediators like former Israeli PM Bennett.

They were close to getting a peace deal through, before Boris barged in and scuttled it.

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Unlike you, I have never said Russia is a good guy the way you have about the United States. That's what makes your position so laughable. But because you boxed yourself in that corner, you have had to pretend that the facts that came out, that the U.S. promised not to move NATO further eastward (and lied) and blew up a peace deal that could have saved hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives don't exist and that just makes you a clown on this topic.

---

Mikhail Gorbachev disagrees with you about promising not to move NATO eastward.

Genocide Joe said:

---

One of the most poisonous tactics of neocons is to declare every new US enemy as Hitler. Thus, anyone who opposes any one of the multiple US wars is Chamberlain.

They know only one historical event. And so of course Dems now think this way, because neocons are their leaders: https://t.co/zaKzrignVl

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) February 5, 2024

---

Wait a minute! I thought the Russians invaded Ukraine because of their Hitler loving Nazis.

Cal88 said:

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Ukraine has informed the White House that President Zelensky has decided to fire his top military commander, Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, in what would be the most consequential personnel shake-up of the war, said two people familiar with the discussion. https://t.co/u3oCzuBaba

— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) February 2, 2024

Edit - this comes ahead of the looming Russian advance into Adiivka, which has been a highly fortified key strategic city from where the Ukrainians have been bombing Donetsk, the Donbass' largest city, since 2014.

---

How's the drafting women thing coming along?

Is President Trump the only person who has asked for peace talks?

Genocide Joe said:

---

One of the most poisonous tactics of neocons is to declare every new US enemy as Hitler. Thus, anyone who opposes any one of the multiple US wars is Chamberlain.

They know only one historical event. And so of course Dems now think this way, because neocons are their leaders: https://t.co/zaKzrignVl

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) February 5, 2024

This ignores the reality that many people in Ukraine, after watching an entire generation of men be sent to the front to die as cannon fodder, don't want to sacrifice themselves or their families in a war that is and was always going to end through diplomacy. pic.twitter.com/OKidRaeqF1

— Chuck (Taylor's Version) (@Jamie_Maz) February 5, 2024

---

This is a solid take by Greenwald. "They only know one historical event." As if Putin had designs on eventually rolling his tanks into Paris. Please. Greenwald might be borrowing from what I wrote here in 2022.

That said, when Putin invaded Ukraine, I think helping the Ukrainians was the right thing to do. However, I would hope we would be a catalyst in the two countries reaching a peace agreement. If we are instead an impediment (dunno, hopefully not), that would be bad.

They were close to a peace deal (in Istanbul?), and we sent Boris Johnson to put the kabosh on it.

CNN, April 26, 2022:

"As Russia's invasion of Ukraine has transformed into a grinding war of attrition with no meaningful peace deal in sight, the US and its allies have begun to convey a new, longer-term goal for the war: to defeat Russia so decisively on the battlefield that it will be deterred from launching such an attack ever again.

"That message was delivered most clearly on Monday, when Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin told reporters after a trip to Ukraine's capital city of Kyiv that "we want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine."

$118 billion "border bill" has $60 billion for Ukraine. $20+ billion to perpetuate the bloodshed in the Gaza.

If it doesn't pass, "We will lose the war." Thx Chucky for letting us know that we're at war with Russia.

BREAKING: US Senate Leader Schumer just threatened to send US soldiers to fight Russia in Eastern Ukraine if the border bill isn’t passedpic.twitter.com/VGcH1CPXub

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) February 5, 2024

Why I'm interviewing Vladimir Putin. pic.twitter.com/hqvXUZqvHX

— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) February 6, 2024

BlackMAGA living the meme https://t.co/JtGxTgCcF9 pic.twitter.com/N0omfujmIA

— The Toxic Leftist 🇳🇿 (@MelvinTheMopBoi) February 6, 2024

GOP asked to connect border and Ukraine and now conservatives are pretending like it's what Biden wanted. I guess Biden is so smart he has figured out inception.

Hard to overestimate how dysfunctional the GOP has become.

Democrats wanted to pass an Ukraine funding bill, Republicans said no, it has to be tied to the border, Democrats agreed to some frankly heinously anti-immigrant positions to get to a deal, and then the Orange Man got mad so…we’re back to a Ukraine funding deal.

no notes. 10/10 https://t.co/tqJC22LLd3

— Armand Domalewski (@ArmandDoma) February 6, 2024

NYT finally came up with a good headline.

On the Border, Republicans Set a Trap, Then Fell Into It

Quote:

---

Congressional Republicans thought they had set a clever trap for Democrats that would accomplish complementary political and policy goals.

Their idea was to tie approval of military assistance to Ukraine to tough border security demands that Democrats would never accept, allowing Republicans to block the money for Kyiv that many of them oppose while simultaneously enabling them to pound Democrats for refusing to halt a surge of migrants at the border. It was to be a win-win headed into November's elections.

But Democrats tripped them up by offering substantial almost unheard-of concessions on immigration policy without insisting on much in return. Now it is Republicans who are rapidly abandoning a compromise that gave them much of what they wanted, leaving aid to Ukraine in deep jeopardy, border policy in turmoil and Congress again flailing as multiple crises at home and abroad go without attention because of a legislative stalemate.

The turn of events led to a remarkable Capitol Hill spectacle this week as a parade of Senate Republicans almost instantly repudiated a major piece of legislation they had spent months demanding as part of any agreement to provide more help to a beleaguered Ukraine. Even Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the minority leader and foremost Republican advocate of helping Ukraine, and Senator James Lankford, the Oklahoma Republican who invested months in cutting the border deal, suggested they would vote to block it on the floor in a test vote set for Wednesday.

It left Senate Republicans, who had mainly avoided the chaos that has consumed House Republicans for the past two years, looking more like their counterparts across the rotunda, rocked by division, finger-pointing and even calls from the far right for new leadership.

---

So this metrosexual:



…is going to have the stones to ask Putin the tough questions (which would never be allowed anyway) and not just be a mouthpiece for his propaganda?

I understand Progressives being angry with the Democratic Party that rejected their vision and policies (the opposite of that being the City of Oakland that is governed pursuant to the political beliefs of the Mayor and Madame DA).

What I don't understand are Progressives that are de facto supporters of the Far Right because they think that is the best way to punish those who rejected them. tRump thanks you for your service.

bearister said:

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What I don't understand are Progressives that are de facto supporters of the Far Right because they think that is the best way to punish those who rejected them. tRump thanks you for your service.

---

Radicalist extremists have a lot in common, regardless of where their views were pre-radicalization.

Rare sighting of a Congressional chamber taking a positive vote for humanity.

I'm sure they'll find a way to reverse that and ensure billions more for the Ukraine proxy war and Gaza genocide, but for now let's appreciate this once-in-a-lifetime moment: https://t.co/8JwbLHiq7M

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) February 7, 2024

Not one banker went to jail over the 2008 subprime crisis, the biggest fraud in financial history. Not one member of the foreign policy blob will lose a job over the Ukraine fiasco. Close ranks and stick to your story: If they fire anybody, they have to fire everybody, and they…

— David P. Goldman (@davidpgoldman) February 7, 2024

And they gave Reagan a hard time for Bedtime for Bonzo.

dajo9 said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Genocide Joe said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

In any case, as I have said above, whether or not it was justified

---

It wasn't.

---

But it was provoked. Sorry that your bubble of American goodness keeps getting burst by facts.

---

This response is rich from someone who also constantly argues against the Israeli war on Hamas by saying that it's a disproportionate response to the original Hamas attack. If it's true for Israel, it's extra true for Russia.

---

Unlike you, I have never said Russia is a good guy the way you have about the United States. That's what makes your position so laughable. But because you boxed yourself in that corner, you have had to pretend that the facts that came out, that the U.S. promised not to move NATO further eastward (and lied) and blew up a peace deal that could have saved hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives don't exist and that just makes you a clown on this topic.

---

Mikhail Gorbachev disagrees with you about promising not to move NATO eastward.

---

You're going to drop that bomb without a link to support it?

Jeffrey Sachs -- who was there, as part of the U.S. delegation -- said that the "Not One Inch Eastward" was the underlying premise for the entire negotiation. Otherwise, the former Soviet republics, like Ukraine, would not have given up their nuclear missiles.

Besides, Gorbachev was 91 when he died in 2022. Did he get railroaded in an interview? Was he still competent?

Sure, there have been NeoCon revisionists who've tried to deny reality, and claim that U.S./NATO leaders didn't really promise anything.... Obvious B.S.: "De-bunking Russian disinformation on NATO"

But through the magic of FOIA requests, many previously classified notes have been declassified, and they reveal exactly what Jeffrey Sachs and many others have been saying for years -- that everyone's understanding was Not. One. Inch. Eastward.

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

cbbass1 said:

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As always, it's best to read about what's going on without the spin & bias of U.S. corporate media. Case in point: The firing -- maybe -- of Valerii Zaluzhnyi....?

Dismissal on repeat: why Zelenskyy is (or isn't) dismissing Commander-in-Chief Zaluzhnyi

---

Probably a good time for Zaluzhny to quit with the imminent fall of Avdiivka looming ahead.

Bipartisan Senate bill passes with $60 billion in aid to Ukraine. Will House Republicans vote to lose Ukraine just like they decided not to secure the border?
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-senate-advances-stand-alone-95-billion-foreign-aid-bill/7479825.html