BearForce2 said:

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If he hates the United States so much, then why doesn't he just leave???
Isn't that what he has said to others in the past?
Stop whining you snowflake.

concordtom said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Wo. @AndrewYang spoke out more forceful about the #BidenRaidOnTrump than the number three Senate GOP who gave an obligatory tweet and most of Senate GOP leadership is still silent.

Does anyone think that these losers will hold any anti-Trump thugs accountable? pic.twitter.com/sZMlYjVM1P

— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) August 9, 2022

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I'm thinking that Yang is an interesting guy with a bad political plan.
No.

---

The more Yang opens his mouth the more he shows that he doesn't know anything.

sycasey said:

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concordtom said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

---

Wo. @AndrewYang spoke out more forceful about the #BidenRaidOnTrump than the number three Senate GOP who gave an obligatory tweet and most of Senate GOP leadership is still silent.

Does anyone think that these losers will hold any anti-Trump thugs accountable? pic.twitter.com/sZMlYjVM1P

— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) August 9, 2022

---

I'm thinking that Yang is an interesting guy with a bad political plan.
No.

---

The more Yang opens his mouth the more he shows that he doesn't know anything.

---

Cuomo, Yang etc... Why do people really care about THEIR thoughts on anything right now????

In response to Trump claiming "this is unprecedented "

Imagine how Bill Clinton feels about the ken Starr led proctologist report into his sexual dalliance with consenting adult Monica Lewinsky.

Hmm.
Compare, contrast:

calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

---

Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

---

If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

---

Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

---

6 years ago, it would have been inconceivable to me that the FBI and/or DOJ would act with political motivations or in contravention of clear legal requirements and DOJ policies. When the whole FISA court reports and Steele report articles started surfacing, I would have bet money that the FBI and DOJ were following FISA requirements and other FBI protocols for investigations. Virtually everyone (including most republican pundits) said the FBI would not request FISA warrants related to presidential candidates without air tight evidence. AIR TIGHT.

But we were all wrong. As the Inspector General's reports have shown, the FBI repeatedly disregarded FISA requirements, not to mention many other department policies (again, read the inspector general's report on Steel, leaking, etc). Even if you believe the FBI and DOJ's actions was not motivated by partisan politics, they happened. Repeatedly.

At this point, the FBI and DOJ have lost the benefit of the doubt. I hope they have the goods here. But if the warrant was based solely on a dispute over official or classified records and there was no evidence that the records were being destroyed (or at risk of disclosure), then this was major overreach and the results will be catastrophic.

89Bear said:

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sycasey said:

---

concordtom said:

---

MinotStateBeav said:

---

Wo. @AndrewYang spoke out more forceful about the #BidenRaidOnTrump than the number three Senate GOP who gave an obligatory tweet and most of Senate GOP leadership is still silent.

Does anyone think that these losers will hold any anti-Trump thugs accountable? pic.twitter.com/sZMlYjVM1P

— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) August 9, 2022

---

I'm thinking that Yang is an interesting guy with a bad political plan.
No.

---

The more Yang opens his mouth the more he shows that he doesn't know anything.

---

Cuomo, Yang etc... Why do people really care about THEIR thoughts on anything right now????

---

Nobody does except for right wingers

BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

---

Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

---

If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

---

Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

---

I agree with you overall - this needs to be done right - but I don't agree that the people running this investigation don't understand what is at stake. This isn't rocket science - you don't go after a former president for jay-walking or wearing white after labor day.

This is obviously a high risk situation and everyone needs to treat it accordingly. That's not some genius-level revelation, it's obvious. Merrick Garland has been very cautious in his approach to investigation and prosecution of the numerous crimes that Trump has been linked to. It hasn't been to the satisfaction of much of the democrat base, but I wouldn't assume that executing a search warrant is some indication that Garland is somehow giving into the base or anything like that.

As I mentioned above, we've seen search warrants like this before. The FBI used them in the Clinton email investigation which ultimately didn't result in any charges being made. It's possible (although I hope unlikely) that the same happens here. That's how our criminal justice system works.

It is looking more and more like this relates to materials Trump took with him from the white house and failed to return. Reportedly he returned 15 boxes and there were some remaining. If the FBI obtained additional items in the execution of the search warrant which Trump still had not returned after ~20 months (and months of engagement with the FBI), I think he likely could be prosecuted. But I could also see Wray/Garland deciding not to prosecute.

To me, the stolen documents are far from the biggest crime Trump has been accused of. Unless we find out more like that he was sharing the classified information with people or using them for some other purpose. If he can make a colorable claim that he "accidentally" stole 15+ boxes of classified information, I don't think he should be prosecuted. I still would think the warrant is reasonable if he refused to return the materials in a timely fashion as they presented a security risk for our nation.

---

Look, I hope you are right.

However, this could easy go sideways, become a political theater with DOJ losing credibility, and all of this, including anything related to January 6th look political as opposed to protection of Democracy. This was another level of escalation when reasonable people started listening to the hearings. They need to clarify this almost immediately before the political train runs over the justice train.

---

Yes, if they screwed this up they should all be fired. And I think everyone recognizes what the stakes are. Now there have been other high stakes situations where the FBI has screwed it up - think Hillary and her emails and the disastrous Comey press conferences - so it's possible that it's happened again.

There are a few things that are unclear. Apparently the archived retrieved 15 boxes from MAL last year but learned there were remaining docs that hadn't been returned. They referred this to justice to deal with. Over a period of months, the FBI was in contact with Trump's people and visited MAL in June, saw that he had stuff he shouldn't have (including materials marked top secret) and that he wasn't storing it securely. Rather than immediately removing the materials, they sent Trump a letter telling him to secure it better.

This is a *** moment. Imagine any other situation where the FBI sees that you have contraband and allows you to hang onto it. Now, 2 months later a warrant is executed. There are some dots that need to be connected, but I have a hard time seeing Trump's defense for holding classified information in his basement at his publicly accessible golf club for more than a year after being booted from the white house.

Think back to all of the pearl-clutching over Hillary's deleted emails (which were never claimed to be material - just a handful of emails that were post-classified and likely posed no continuing risk) and compare to the reaction from GOP about materials that Trump STILL WON'T RETURN.

It's also telling that Trump won't release the search warrant. If he has nothing to hide, he should share it publicly.

---

OK, we will hopefully see soon whether this was a huge gift to those buying the far right conspiracy theory or whether this was the start of the true downfall for Trump.

It absolutely is a *** moment. Subpoenas and depositions are all within the norms. A search warrant and the corresponding raid of a former president's residence, as far as I know, has never been done. It wasn't done even to Hillary when Trump was president, right? I would have preferred a contempt of court after failure of responding to subpoena but there is a lot I don't know right now. That is why I think prompt disclosure is needed even though they may want to play it close to the vest for investigation purposes. However, they must have known the political firestorm this would create and breach of norms this was. Anyone with any bit of professionalism and PR sensibility would have had communication all ready to go in this *** escalation.

---

They did execute search warrants in connection with the Hillary email investigation. I believe the search warrants were served on third parties and not the Clintons. The big difference is that she did voluntarily comply with the FBI. I am 100% positive that the FBI will be able to show that Trump refused to comply with them in their investigation which forced their hand here.

As for whether there is something else here - I don't know. There is a lot of speculation that they must have had reason to believe Trump was sharing those materials with adversaries or otherwise, but I'm skeptical of that. I think it's as simple as the FBI/DOJ demanding the return of classified materials and Trump saying "make me." So they made him. That to me is 100% on Trump and not a rule of law problem.

Again, all Trump has to do is release the warrant to clear things up but the warrant obviously looks bad for him so he wont' do it. Maybe his bus stop lawyer will make a mistake like Alex Jones' lawyer and we'll all get to see it.

---

Did Hillary "comply" before or after she deleted a bunch of evidence? She didn't comply with the congressional subpoena - that's for sure.

And executing third party search warrants is not even in the same universe as executing a warrant on a current/former president and/or current/former presidential candidate. There is a reason HRC was not served with a warrant.

Trump should release the warrant. But I don't think the warrant includes the underlying declarations which is what we really need to see (not sure)? Does he have those? I think they just serve the warrant and not the underlying docs - but I could be wrong. Anyone have a link showing Trump has the sworn declarations in support of the warrant?

---

Hillary only deleted personal emails which she was free to delete

BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

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Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

---

Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

---

If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

---

Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

---

I agree with you overall - this needs to be done right - but I don't agree that the people running this investigation don't understand what is at stake. This isn't rocket science - you don't go after a former president for jay-walking or wearing white after labor day.

This is obviously a high risk situation and everyone needs to treat it accordingly. That's not some genius-level revelation, it's obvious. Merrick Garland has been very cautious in his approach to investigation and prosecution of the numerous crimes that Trump has been linked to. It hasn't been to the satisfaction of much of the democrat base, but I wouldn't assume that executing a search warrant is some indication that Garland is somehow giving into the base or anything like that.

As I mentioned above, we've seen search warrants like this before. The FBI used them in the Clinton email investigation which ultimately didn't result in any charges being made. It's possible (although I hope unlikely) that the same happens here. That's how our criminal justice system works.

It is looking more and more like this relates to materials Trump took with him from the white house and failed to return. Reportedly he returned 15 boxes and there were some remaining. If the FBI obtained additional items in the execution of the search warrant which Trump still had not returned after ~20 months (and months of engagement with the FBI), I think he likely could be prosecuted. But I could also see Wray/Garland deciding not to prosecute.

To me, the stolen documents are far from the biggest crime Trump has been accused of. Unless we find out more like that he was sharing the classified information with people or using them for some other purpose. If he can make a colorable claim that he "accidentally" stole 15+ boxes of classified information, I don't think he should be prosecuted. I still would think the warrant is reasonable if he refused to return the materials in a timely fashion as they presented a security risk for our nation.

---

Look, I hope you are right.

However, this could easy go sideways, become a political theater with DOJ losing credibility, and all of this, including anything related to January 6th look political as opposed to protection of Democracy. This was another level of escalation when reasonable people started listening to the hearings. They need to clarify this almost immediately before the political train runs over the justice train.

---

Yes, if they screwed this up they should all be fired. And I think everyone recognizes what the stakes are. Now there have been other high stakes situations where the FBI has screwed it up - think Hillary and her emails and the disastrous Comey press conferences - so it's possible that it's happened again.

There are a few things that are unclear. Apparently the archived retrieved 15 boxes from MAL last year but learned there were remaining docs that hadn't been returned. They referred this to justice to deal with. Over a period of months, the FBI was in contact with Trump's people and visited MAL in June, saw that he had stuff he shouldn't have (including materials marked top secret) and that he wasn't storing it securely. Rather than immediately removing the materials, they sent Trump a letter telling him to secure it better.

This is a *** moment. Imagine any other situation where the FBI sees that you have contraband and allows you to hang onto it. Now, 2 months later a warrant is executed. There are some dots that need to be connected, but I have a hard time seeing Trump's defense for holding classified information in his basement at his publicly accessible golf club for more than a year after being booted from the white house.

Think back to all of the pearl-clutching over Hillary's deleted emails (which were never claimed to be material - just a handful of emails that were post-classified and likely posed no continuing risk) and compare to the reaction from GOP about materials that Trump STILL WON'T RETURN.

It's also telling that Trump won't release the search warrant. If he has nothing to hide, he should share it publicly.

---

OK, we will hopefully see soon whether this was a huge gift to those buying the far right conspiracy theory or whether this was the start of the true downfall for Trump.

It absolutely is a *** moment. Subpoenas and depositions are all within the norms. A search warrant and the corresponding raid of a former president's residence, as far as I know, has never been done. It wasn't done even to Hillary when Trump was president, right? I would have preferred a contempt of court after failure of responding to subpoena but there is a lot I don't know right now. That is why I think prompt disclosure is needed even though they may want to play it close to the vest for investigation purposes. However, they must have known the political firestorm this would create and breach of norms this was. Anyone with any bit of professionalism and PR sensibility would have had communication all ready to go in this *** escalation.

---

They did execute search warrants in connection with the Hillary email investigation. I believe the search warrants were served on third parties and not the Clintons. The big difference is that she did voluntarily comply with the FBI. I am 100% positive that the FBI will be able to show that Trump refused to comply with them in their investigation which forced their hand here.

As for whether there is something else here - I don't know. There is a lot of speculation that they must have had reason to believe Trump was sharing those materials with adversaries or otherwise, but I'm skeptical of that. I think it's as simple as the FBI/DOJ demanding the return of classified materials and Trump saying "make me." So they made him. That to me is 100% on Trump and not a rule of law problem.

Again, all Trump has to do is release the warrant to clear things up but the warrant obviously looks bad for him so he wont' do it. Maybe his bus stop lawyer will make a mistake like Alex Jones' lawyer and we'll all get to see it.

---

Did Hillary "comply" before or after she deleted a bunch of evidence? She didn't comply with the congressional subpoena - that's for sure.

And executing third party search warrants is not even in the same universe as executing a warrant on a current/former president and/or current/former presidential candidate. There is a reason HRC was not served with a warrant.

Trump should release the warrant. But I don't think the warrant includes the underlying declarations which is what we really need to see (not sure)? Does he have those? I think they just serve the warrant and not the underlying docs - but I could be wrong. Anyone have a link showing Trump has the sworn declarations in support of the warrant?

---

Look who's unsurprisingly shown up to white knight for Trump.

Hillary Clinton provided over 55,000 pages of emails to the FBI. Her IT guy deleted 30,000 emails which her outside law firm determined were personal in nature. The FBI didn't need to execute a search warrant on her home (or office) because she complied with their request. They executed a warrant on a third party whose computer had some of her emails.

Contrast that with Trump. He illegally kept dozens of boxes of government documents. For more than a year and a half he chose not to return some number of those documents, including purportedly classified ones. The FBI paid him a visit in June and laid eyes on the documents. Trump or his team could easily have given the documents back to the government, but chose not to comply. And let's not pretend that this was a raid on his underwear drawer - they went to his office location where he illegally maintained classified government records which could pose a national security risk. Hillary's deleted emails were not that. As it turns out, Hillary's undeleted emails were not that either, but it was still enough to give 99% of GOPers the vapors and a near-lethal case of pearl clutching.

So Trump was given every opportunity to comply by returning all of these records and stonewalled for more than a year and a half. This is night and day from the Clinton controversy. Would you suggest that the government just accept that Trump can keep all of these illegally obtained records for as long as he wants to in an unsecure public location?

This is the part where you acknowledge that either you don't care about the national security implications of butter emails, or you think Trump's retention and insecure maintenance of classified materials is problematic. You don't get to have it both ways. The presidential records act is very clear and the fact that 12 boxes of documents were removed from MAL by the FBI is quite telling. It's telling us that GOPers like you never actually cared about the national security implications of Clinton's emails and that when push comes to shove even though you pretend to be a critic of Trump, you still ride or die with him.

I'm glad that we can all stop pretending like your criticism of Trump has been genuine. You're sticking with him longer than Rupert Murdoch.

….and I am willing to put the whole Russian Hoax issue to bed…..the day someone on behalf of tRump presents a summary of what was discussed in the 102 meetings between Russians and associates of tRump in the run up to the 2016 Election.

After reading approximatey 10 books about tRump, in my opinion, he is a career unindicted felon. In a betting parlor, I would be willing to place a substantial wager that whatever crimes tRump is accused of committing, he committed. A jury will conclude the same. Remember, he can never testify on his own behalf because he is the perfect storm of pathological liar and profoundly stupid (convincing liars have to be smart).

What do I think will happen if he ever goes to trial for any of the multiple felonies he has committed:

1. Death threats will be made against at least one juror and the jury will hang (Gotti had multiple mistrials before they finally nailed him and after 4 mistrials, the Feds simply gave up pursuing Gotti's son);

2. If tRump gets convicted the bought and paid for rubber stamp SCOTUS will reverse his conviction and dismiss the case in a 6-3 decision penned by Clarence Thomas.

The only one that will administer justice to tRump will be tRump himself. At 5'11 300 lbs, he is literally eating himself into an explosive state.

BearGoggles said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

---

Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

---

If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

---

Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

---

6 years ago, it would have been inconceivable to me that the FBI and/or DOJ would act with political motivations or in contravention of clear legal requirements and DOJ policies. When the whole FISA court reports and Steele report articles started surfacing, I would have bet money that the FBI and DOJ were following FISA requirements and other FBI protocols for investigations. Virtually everyone (including most republican pundits) said the FBI would not request FISA warrants related to presidential candidates without air tight evidence. AIR TIGHT.

But we were all wrong. As the Inspector General's reports have shown, the FBI repeatedly disregarded FISA requirements, not to mention many other department policies (again, read the inspector general's report on Steel, leaking, etc). Even if you believe the FBI and DOJ's actions was not motivated by partisan politics, they happened. Repeatedly.

At this point, the FBI and DOJ have lost the benefit of the doubt. I hope they have the goods here. But if the warrant was based solely on a dispute over official or classified records and there was no evidence that the records were being destroyed (or at risk of disclosure), then this was major overreach and the results will be catastrophic.

---

Sorry you didn't get the news about the failed Durham investigation. All your accusations about the DOJ / FBI are laughable. Durham's investigation lasted longer than Mueller's (it's still going) and he's got nothing. His fishing expedition is a loser.

The only ones treated unfairly by the FBI / DOJ were Hillary, Strzok, and Page. Hillary when the FBI announced a road to nowhere investigation into her days before an election. That was completely unprecedented and unheard of, but there are always special rules for attacking the Clintons.

And Strzok and Page when the FBI illegally gave the media information about them for the purpose of defaming them. They are currently suing the FBI.

dajo9 said:

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Hillary only deleted personal emails which she was free to delete

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All 33,000 emails on the private government server were related to Chelsea's wedding.

BearGoggles said:

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At this point, … if the warrant was based solely on a dispute over official or classified records and there was no evidence that the records were being destroyed (or at risk of disclosure), then this was major overreach and the results will be catastrophic.

---

Wrong. Here's why.

1. He shouldn't have removed items in the first place.
2. They already asked him to return something like 15 boxes. Apparently, not done to satisfaction.
3. We know he destroyed evidence. Photos of flushed turn notes.
4. Asking via a subpoena would no longer suffice.

I'm watching Hannity from last night now.
Throwing out lots of deflection, Alan Dershowitz making statements that are false….
Dude, come off it. The guy is a scumbag and everyone knows it.

Now Eric Trump is on there and laughing rage and playing victim.

America and the whole world is so sick of it.

concordtom said:

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BearGoggles said:

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At this point, … if the warrant was based solely on a dispute over official or classified records and there was no evidence that the records were being destroyed (or at risk of disclosure), then this was major overreach and the results will be catastrophic.

---

Wrong. Here's why.

1. He shouldn't have removed items in the first place.
2. They already asked him to return something like 15 boxes. Apparently, not done to satisfaction.
3. We know he destroyed evidence. Photos of flushed turn notes.
4. Asking via a subpoena would no longer suffice.

I'm watching Hannity from last night now.
Throwing out lots of deflection, Alan Dershowitz making statements that are false….
Dude, come off it. The guy is a scumbag and everyone knows it.

Now Eric Trump is on there and laughing rage and playing victim.

America and the whole world is so sick of it.

---

You are absolutely correct. This pearl clutching over whether Trump's criminality is severe enough to enforce the law is a threat to our republic. I'm hoping to find the time to write more about this tomorrow.

89Bear said:

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sycasey said:

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concordtom said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Wo. @AndrewYang spoke out more forceful about the #BidenRaidOnTrump than the number three Senate GOP who gave an obligatory tweet and most of Senate GOP leadership is still silent.

Does anyone think that these losers will hold any anti-Trump thugs accountable? pic.twitter.com/sZMlYjVM1P

— Yossi Gestetner (@YossiGestetner) August 9, 2022

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I'm thinking that Yang is an interesting guy with a bad political plan.
No.

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The more Yang opens his mouth the more he shows that he doesn't know anything.

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Cuomo, Yang etc... Why do people really care about THEIR thoughts on anything right now????

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Yang's entire purpose seems to be just keeping his own name in the news. He has no coherent policy goals anymore.

Eric Trump:

"This came from one place - the WH - in order to defeat his greatest threat.
We are not respected by anyone.
Our economy is garbage.
The January 6 panel doesn't have a single Republican other than Liz Cheney who is about to get trounced by 20 points…"

Dude, all lies.
The Trump regime is full of liars.
It's simply amazing the lack of ability to be honest.
The kids were raised to be serial liars.

Have they no shame???
Amazing.

BearForce2 said:

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Non-politicians in general aren't asked about their policy goals.

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Which is why Hunter Biden is a non-story

BearForce2 said:

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Non-politicians in general aren't asked about their policy goals.

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Wait, are you suggesting Andrew Yang is not a politician? He ran for President, then for New York mayor, and now he wants to start a new political party. He's a politician.

dajo9 said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

---

Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

---

If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

---

Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

---

I agree with you overall - this needs to be done right - but I don't agree that the people running this investigation don't understand what is at stake. This isn't rocket science - you don't go after a former president for jay-walking or wearing white after labor day.

This is obviously a high risk situation and everyone needs to treat it accordingly. That's not some genius-level revelation, it's obvious. Merrick Garland has been very cautious in his approach to investigation and prosecution of the numerous crimes that Trump has been linked to. It hasn't been to the satisfaction of much of the democrat base, but I wouldn't assume that executing a search warrant is some indication that Garland is somehow giving into the base or anything like that.

As I mentioned above, we've seen search warrants like this before. The FBI used them in the Clinton email investigation which ultimately didn't result in any charges being made. It's possible (although I hope unlikely) that the same happens here. That's how our criminal justice system works.

It is looking more and more like this relates to materials Trump took with him from the white house and failed to return. Reportedly he returned 15 boxes and there were some remaining. If the FBI obtained additional items in the execution of the search warrant which Trump still had not returned after ~20 months (and months of engagement with the FBI), I think he likely could be prosecuted. But I could also see Wray/Garland deciding not to prosecute.

To me, the stolen documents are far from the biggest crime Trump has been accused of. Unless we find out more like that he was sharing the classified information with people or using them for some other purpose. If he can make a colorable claim that he "accidentally" stole 15+ boxes of classified information, I don't think he should be prosecuted. I still would think the warrant is reasonable if he refused to return the materials in a timely fashion as they presented a security risk for our nation.

---

Look, I hope you are right.

However, this could easy go sideways, become a political theater with DOJ losing credibility, and all of this, including anything related to January 6th look political as opposed to protection of Democracy. This was another level of escalation when reasonable people started listening to the hearings. They need to clarify this almost immediately before the political train runs over the justice train.

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Yes, if they screwed this up they should all be fired. And I think everyone recognizes what the stakes are. Now there have been other high stakes situations where the FBI has screwed it up - think Hillary and her emails and the disastrous Comey press conferences - so it's possible that it's happened again.

There are a few things that are unclear. Apparently the archived retrieved 15 boxes from MAL last year but learned there were remaining docs that hadn't been returned. They referred this to justice to deal with. Over a period of months, the FBI was in contact with Trump's people and visited MAL in June, saw that he had stuff he shouldn't have (including materials marked top secret) and that he wasn't storing it securely. Rather than immediately removing the materials, they sent Trump a letter telling him to secure it better.

This is a *** moment. Imagine any other situation where the FBI sees that you have contraband and allows you to hang onto it. Now, 2 months later a warrant is executed. There are some dots that need to be connected, but I have a hard time seeing Trump's defense for holding classified information in his basement at his publicly accessible golf club for more than a year after being booted from the white house.

Think back to all of the pearl-clutching over Hillary's deleted emails (which were never claimed to be material - just a handful of emails that were post-classified and likely posed no continuing risk) and compare to the reaction from GOP about materials that Trump STILL WON'T RETURN.

It's also telling that Trump won't release the search warrant. If he has nothing to hide, he should share it publicly.

---

OK, we will hopefully see soon whether this was a huge gift to those buying the far right conspiracy theory or whether this was the start of the true downfall for Trump.

It absolutely is a *** moment. Subpoenas and depositions are all within the norms. A search warrant and the corresponding raid of a former president's residence, as far as I know, has never been done. It wasn't done even to Hillary when Trump was president, right? I would have preferred a contempt of court after failure of responding to subpoena but there is a lot I don't know right now. That is why I think prompt disclosure is needed even though they may want to play it close to the vest for investigation purposes. However, they must have known the political firestorm this would create and breach of norms this was. Anyone with any bit of professionalism and PR sensibility would have had communication all ready to go in this *** escalation.

---

They did execute search warrants in connection with the Hillary email investigation. I believe the search warrants were served on third parties and not the Clintons. The big difference is that she did voluntarily comply with the FBI. I am 100% positive that the FBI will be able to show that Trump refused to comply with them in their investigation which forced their hand here.

As for whether there is something else here - I don't know. There is a lot of speculation that they must have had reason to believe Trump was sharing those materials with adversaries or otherwise, but I'm skeptical of that. I think it's as simple as the FBI/DOJ demanding the return of classified materials and Trump saying "make me." So they made him. That to me is 100% on Trump and not a rule of law problem.

Again, all Trump has to do is release the warrant to clear things up but the warrant obviously looks bad for him so he wont' do it. Maybe his bus stop lawyer will make a mistake like Alex Jones' lawyer and we'll all get to see it.

---

Did Hillary "comply" before or after she deleted a bunch of evidence? She didn't comply with the congressional subpoena - that's for sure.

And executing third party search warrants is not even in the same universe as executing a warrant on a current/former president and/or current/former presidential candidate. There is a reason HRC was not served with a warrant.

Trump should release the warrant. But I don't think the warrant includes the underlying declarations which is what we really need to see (not sure)? Does he have those? I think they just serve the warrant and not the underlying docs - but I could be wrong. Anyone have a link showing Trump has the sworn declarations in support of the warrant?

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Hillary only deleted personal emails which she was free to delete

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You know this how?

And just so you know, that's not what you do when there's litigation, a subpoena or threats of those things. You don't delete and then use a program that makes it impossible to recover, unless you want to be accused of obstruction, spoliation of evidence, etc. She wasn't "free to delete them." HRC and her team weren't the ones who are supposed to decide what's personal - a judge does that.

If Trump had destroyed the disputed records in this case before the warrant was served, would you be ok with that? That's what HRC did. And we have a recent precedent - Eastman's emails were subpoenaed and a judge decided - not Eastmen. That's how it is supposed to work.

But even if you're right, that doesn't change the fact that HRC separately had classified information on her private server and in her possession - which was improper. Pretty much what Trump apparently did here, if the allegations are true. The only difference is Trump didn't shred the docs or try to hide the fact that he has them.

Unit2Sucks said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

---

Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

---

If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

---

Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

---

I agree with you overall - this needs to be done right - but I don't agree that the people running this investigation don't understand what is at stake. This isn't rocket science - you don't go after a former president for jay-walking or wearing white after labor day.

This is obviously a high risk situation and everyone needs to treat it accordingly. That's not some genius-level revelation, it's obvious. Merrick Garland has been very cautious in his approach to investigation and prosecution of the numerous crimes that Trump has been linked to. It hasn't been to the satisfaction of much of the democrat base, but I wouldn't assume that executing a search warrant is some indication that Garland is somehow giving into the base or anything like that.

As I mentioned above, we've seen search warrants like this before. The FBI used them in the Clinton email investigation which ultimately didn't result in any charges being made. It's possible (although I hope unlikely) that the same happens here. That's how our criminal justice system works.

It is looking more and more like this relates to materials Trump took with him from the white house and failed to return. Reportedly he returned 15 boxes and there were some remaining. If the FBI obtained additional items in the execution of the search warrant which Trump still had not returned after ~20 months (and months of engagement with the FBI), I think he likely could be prosecuted. But I could also see Wray/Garland deciding not to prosecute.

To me, the stolen documents are far from the biggest crime Trump has been accused of. Unless we find out more like that he was sharing the classified information with people or using them for some other purpose. If he can make a colorable claim that he "accidentally" stole 15+ boxes of classified information, I don't think he should be prosecuted. I still would think the warrant is reasonable if he refused to return the materials in a timely fashion as they presented a security risk for our nation.

---

Look, I hope you are right.

However, this could easy go sideways, become a political theater with DOJ losing credibility, and all of this, including anything related to January 6th look political as opposed to protection of Democracy. This was another level of escalation when reasonable people started listening to the hearings. They need to clarify this almost immediately before the political train runs over the justice train.

---

Yes, if they screwed this up they should all be fired. And I think everyone recognizes what the stakes are. Now there have been other high stakes situations where the FBI has screwed it up - think Hillary and her emails and the disastrous Comey press conferences - so it's possible that it's happened again.

There are a few things that are unclear. Apparently the archived retrieved 15 boxes from MAL last year but learned there were remaining docs that hadn't been returned. They referred this to justice to deal with. Over a period of months, the FBI was in contact with Trump's people and visited MAL in June, saw that he had stuff he shouldn't have (including materials marked top secret) and that he wasn't storing it securely. Rather than immediately removing the materials, they sent Trump a letter telling him to secure it better.

This is a *** moment. Imagine any other situation where the FBI sees that you have contraband and allows you to hang onto it. Now, 2 months later a warrant is executed. There are some dots that need to be connected, but I have a hard time seeing Trump's defense for holding classified information in his basement at his publicly accessible golf club for more than a year after being booted from the white house.

Think back to all of the pearl-clutching over Hillary's deleted emails (which were never claimed to be material - just a handful of emails that were post-classified and likely posed no continuing risk) and compare to the reaction from GOP about materials that Trump STILL WON'T RETURN.

It's also telling that Trump won't release the search warrant. If he has nothing to hide, he should share it publicly.

---

OK, we will hopefully see soon whether this was a huge gift to those buying the far right conspiracy theory or whether this was the start of the true downfall for Trump.

It absolutely is a *** moment. Subpoenas and depositions are all within the norms. A search warrant and the corresponding raid of a former president's residence, as far as I know, has never been done. It wasn't done even to Hillary when Trump was president, right? I would have preferred a contempt of court after failure of responding to subpoena but there is a lot I don't know right now. That is why I think prompt disclosure is needed even though they may want to play it close to the vest for investigation purposes. However, they must have known the political firestorm this would create and breach of norms this was. Anyone with any bit of professionalism and PR sensibility would have had communication all ready to go in this *** escalation.

---

They did execute search warrants in connection with the Hillary email investigation. I believe the search warrants were served on third parties and not the Clintons. The big difference is that she did voluntarily comply with the FBI. I am 100% positive that the FBI will be able to show that Trump refused to comply with them in their investigation which forced their hand here.

As for whether there is something else here - I don't know. There is a lot of speculation that they must have had reason to believe Trump was sharing those materials with adversaries or otherwise, but I'm skeptical of that. I think it's as simple as the FBI/DOJ demanding the return of classified materials and Trump saying "make me." So they made him. That to me is 100% on Trump and not a rule of law problem.

Again, all Trump has to do is release the warrant to clear things up but the warrant obviously looks bad for him so he wont' do it. Maybe his bus stop lawyer will make a mistake like Alex Jones' lawyer and we'll all get to see it.

---

Did Hillary "comply" before or after she deleted a bunch of evidence? She didn't comply with the congressional subpoena - that's for sure.

And executing third party search warrants is not even in the same universe as executing a warrant on a current/former president and/or current/former presidential candidate. There is a reason HRC was not served with a warrant.

Trump should release the warrant. But I don't think the warrant includes the underlying declarations which is what we really need to see (not sure)? Does he have those? I think they just serve the warrant and not the underlying docs - but I could be wrong. Anyone have a link showing Trump has the sworn declarations in support of the warrant?

---

Look who's unsurprisingly shown up to white knight for Trump.

Hillary Clinton provided over 55,000 pages of emails to the FBI. Her IT guy deleted 30,000 emails which her outside law firm determined were personal in nature. The FBI didn't need to execute a search warrant on her home (or office) because she complied with their request. They executed a warrant on a third party whose computer had some of her emails.

Contrast that with Trump. He illegally kept dozens of boxes of government documents. For more than a year and a half he chose not to return some number of those documents, including purportedly classified ones. The FBI paid him a visit in June and laid eyes on the documents. Trump or his team could easily have given the documents back to the government, but chose not to comply. And let's not pretend that this was a raid on his underwear drawer - they went to his office location where he illegally maintained classified government records which could pose a national security risk. Hillary's deleted emails were not that. As it turns out, Hillary's undeleted emails were not that either, but it was still enough to give 99% of GOPers the vapors and a near-lethal case of pearl clutching.

So Trump was given every opportunity to comply by returning all of these records and stonewalled for more than a year and a half. This is night and day from the Clinton controversy. Would you suggest that the government just accept that Trump can keep all of these illegally obtained records for as long as he wants to in an unsecure public location?

This is the part where you acknowledge that either you don't care about the national security implications of butter emails, or you think Trump's retention and insecure maintenance of classified materials is problematic. You don't get to have it both ways. The presidential records act is very clear and the fact that 12 boxes of documents were removed from MAL by the FBI is quite telling. It's telling us that GOPers like you never actually cared about the national security implications of Clinton's emails and that when push comes to shove even though you pretend to be a critic of Trump, you still ride or die with him.

I'm glad that we can all stop pretending like your criticism of Trump has been genuine. You're sticking with him longer than Rupert Murdoch.

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First of all, you're ignoring my separate post where I said "I hope they have the goods here." I'd be very happy if this discredits Trump and cripples any attempt/hope he has to run again. But this is very likely going to have the opposite effect if the basis for the warrant was thin. I actually think the dems are goading Trump into running again and hope he'll declare before the midterms.

Your defense of HRC is hilarious. Her IT guy deleted the emails at HRC's direction (and Sheryl Mills). You conveniently ignore that the remaining emails undisputedly contained classified information that she illegally possessed on a personal (and unsecure) server, all in violation of security protocols (pretty much what Trump may have done here). HRC mishandled HIGHLY classified info during the entire tenure as SOS and then for at least 2 years thereafter. Not just 15 boxes.

And the final irony is that HRC deleted the emails in response to the State Department's request for public records - years after HRC left office. She literally misappropriate State Department records for years and never disclosed that. Doesn't excuse what Trump may be doing with his records, but it is orders of magnitude worse. If Trump were HRC, he'd have shredded those boxes by now.

Trump and his team reportedly dispute that the records are public records and/or classified. I have literally no idea if they're correct - either do you. There's a process for determining that - its called a subpoena and then going to court, with the records appropriately safeguarded in the meantime. HRC's lawyer kept the disputed files while the issues were being sorted out. A warrant in this situation is unprecedented. Maybe it was justified - maybe Trump was threatening to destroy the files or wasn't safeguarding them?

That would possibly justify a warrant. But we don't know. And CNN's reporting doesn't support that - they indicate that Trump was cooperating and negotiating with the FBI - just like you claim HRC was.

"In early June, a handful of investigators made a rare visit to the property seeking more information about potentially classified material from Trump's time in the White House that had been taken to Florida. The four investigators, including Jay Bratt, the chief of the counterintelligence and export control section at the Justice Department, sat down with two of Trump's attorneys, Bobb and Evan Corcoran, according to a source present for the meeting.


At the beginning of the meeting, Trump stopped by and greeted the investigators near a dining room. After he left, without answering any questions, the investigators asked the attorneys if they could see where Trump was storing the documents. The attorneys took the investigators to the basement room where the boxes of materials were being stored, and the investigators looked around the room before eventually leaving, according to the source.

A second source said that Trump came in to say hi and made small talk but left while the attorneys spoke with investigators. The source said some of the documents shown to investigators had top secret markings.
Five days later, on June 8, Trump's attorneys received a letter from investigators asking them to further secure the room where the documents were stored. Aides subsequently added a padlock to the room.
In April and May, aides to Trump at Mar-a-Lago were interviewed by the FBI as part of the probe into the handling of presidential records, according to a source familiar with the matter."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/politics/mar-a-lago-search-warrant-fbi-donald-trump/index.html

Maybe something happened since then or perhaps CNN is mistaken (wouldn't be the first time). If not, then this is looking bad and setting a really bad precedent. As 93 says, if there isn't an arrest, this is going to backfire.

And for the record, I'd like all parties who misappropriate or leak classified info to be prosecuted and lose their security clearance. That includes Trump, HRC, Comey, and McCabe. The problem is the DOJ and FBI hasn't done that. Even Petraeus was let off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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Yeah, I can't imagine Merrick Garland - who had to approve this - would go out on a limb unless they had a bulletproof reason. As I stated in the other thread, unless they are checking the sewer for sharpie notes they are unlikely to find anything because Trump isn't particularly literate. This definitely ups the likelihood that the FBI already has the goods and they were just doing the search as a formality.

Lots of options here, everything from classified documents to other crimes, but whatever it is, the judge who issued the warrant would've been rigous about determining there was sufficient probable caused to support it.

— Joyce Alene (@JoyceWhiteVance) August 8, 2022

I hope when he is eventually arrested that they don't protect his head when they load him in to the car. Just following his orders right?

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Arresting a former president when the opposition party has the white house sets such a horrible precedent.

This better be a criminal, air-tight case.

Otherwise, one can expect Biden, Clinton, etc. to be indicted when a Republican is in the white house. At the very least, everyone associated with Biden will be subject to unannounced search warrants. We see this in other less than Democratic countries, especially since there is a crime that could be charged against almost everyone.

This makes a peaceful transition of power even more tenuous.

Not sure I have that much confidence in this administration to make the right type of political call on this, especially when this could have some serious ramification.

I hope it is clear what I think of Trump. I am expressing concern for the future of our democracy and not for him - the same concern that made me despise Trump. I hope this is not some political pressure and expediency, especially since I am not too confident about the Democrat's ability to think beyond the next move.

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If Biden or any political people in his administration were responsible, then I completely agree. Given how weak and careful Merrick Garland has been, I have a hard time believing there were any shenanigans here. There is zero reason to believe that there was any political motivation for this warrant and search.

The FBI issued multiple search warrants while investigating Hillary Clinton's email "scandal" and I don't recall any Republicans raising their hand to complain. I don't recall Democrats melting down over search warrants.

The judge who approved the warrant is being attacked by right wing whack jobs, but he was appointed under the Trump administration. Trump appointed Christopher Wray. This isn't some deep state political operation.

I have no doubt that if we as a country are dumb enough to let Trump anywhere near the white house he will spend all of his time using his political muscle to punish his enemies, of which there are many. That's basically what he did during his first 4 years but he wasn't very persuasive and was stopped by people with a semblance of loyalty to law and order and our country.

But just because Trump and the GOP will justify political abuses of the wheels of justice doesn't mean we have to pretend that's what is happening here.

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Look, I am all for no one being above the law. I am a very strong believer in law and order.

However, I am hopeful that this will lead to a very imminent arrest with a very strong, almost treason-type of charge against Trump and he is convicted in a transparent and open trial.

If this flames out without an arrest, this was a horrible precedent, and Biden and his whole family better be ready if and when a Republican has the white house. They will have no moral standing or reference to norms to defend themselves.

This should make everyone on both sides nervous, but I suspect too many Democrats won't see around the corner or plan for anything beyond this move.

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I agree with you overall - this needs to be done right - but I don't agree that the people running this investigation don't understand what is at stake. This isn't rocket science - you don't go after a former president for jay-walking or wearing white after labor day.

This is obviously a high risk situation and everyone needs to treat it accordingly. That's not some genius-level revelation, it's obvious. Merrick Garland has been very cautious in his approach to investigation and prosecution of the numerous crimes that Trump has been linked to. It hasn't been to the satisfaction of much of the democrat base, but I wouldn't assume that executing a search warrant is some indication that Garland is somehow giving into the base or anything like that.

As I mentioned above, we've seen search warrants like this before. The FBI used them in the Clinton email investigation which ultimately didn't result in any charges being made. It's possible (although I hope unlikely) that the same happens here. That's how our criminal justice system works.

It is looking more and more like this relates to materials Trump took with him from the white house and failed to return. Reportedly he returned 15 boxes and there were some remaining. If the FBI obtained additional items in the execution of the search warrant which Trump still had not returned after ~20 months (and months of engagement with the FBI), I think he likely could be prosecuted. But I could also see Wray/Garland deciding not to prosecute.

To me, the stolen documents are far from the biggest crime Trump has been accused of. Unless we find out more like that he was sharing the classified information with people or using them for some other purpose. If he can make a colorable claim that he "accidentally" stole 15+ boxes of classified information, I don't think he should be prosecuted. I still would think the warrant is reasonable if he refused to return the materials in a timely fashion as they presented a security risk for our nation.

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Look, I hope you are right.

However, this could easy go sideways, become a political theater with DOJ losing credibility, and all of this, including anything related to January 6th look political as opposed to protection of Democracy. This was another level of escalation when reasonable people started listening to the hearings. They need to clarify this almost immediately before the political train runs over the justice train.

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Yes, if they screwed this up they should all be fired. And I think everyone recognizes what the stakes are. Now there have been other high stakes situations where the FBI has screwed it up - think Hillary and her emails and the disastrous Comey press conferences - so it's possible that it's happened again.

There are a few things that are unclear. Apparently the archived retrieved 15 boxes from MAL last year but learned there were remaining docs that hadn't been returned. They referred this to justice to deal with. Over a period of months, the FBI was in contact with Trump's people and visited MAL in June, saw that he had stuff he shouldn't have (including materials marked top secret) and that he wasn't storing it securely. Rather than immediately removing the materials, they sent Trump a letter telling him to secure it better.

This is a *** moment. Imagine any other situation where the FBI sees that you have contraband and allows you to hang onto it. Now, 2 months later a warrant is executed. There are some dots that need to be connected, but I have a hard time seeing Trump's defense for holding classified information in his basement at his publicly accessible golf club for more than a year after being booted from the white house.

Think back to all of the pearl-clutching over Hillary's deleted emails (which were never claimed to be material - just a handful of emails that were post-classified and likely posed no continuing risk) and compare to the reaction from GOP about materials that Trump STILL WON'T RETURN.

It's also telling that Trump won't release the search warrant. If he has nothing to hide, he should share it publicly.

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OK, we will hopefully see soon whether this was a huge gift to those buying the far right conspiracy theory or whether this was the start of the true downfall for Trump.

It absolutely is a *** moment. Subpoenas and depositions are all within the norms. A search warrant and the corresponding raid of a former president's residence, as far as I know, has never been done. It wasn't done even to Hillary when Trump was president, right? I would have preferred a contempt of court after failure of responding to subpoena but there is a lot I don't know right now. That is why I think prompt disclosure is needed even though they may want to play it close to the vest for investigation purposes. However, they must have known the political firestorm this would create and breach of norms this was. Anyone with any bit of professionalism and PR sensibility would have had communication all ready to go in this *** escalation.

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They did execute search warrants in connection with the Hillary email investigation. I believe the search warrants were served on third parties and not the Clintons. The big difference is that she did voluntarily comply with the FBI. I am 100% positive that the FBI will be able to show that Trump refused to comply with them in their investigation which forced their hand here.

As for whether there is something else here - I don't know. There is a lot of speculation that they must have had reason to believe Trump was sharing those materials with adversaries or otherwise, but I'm skeptical of that. I think it's as simple as the FBI/DOJ demanding the return of classified materials and Trump saying "make me." So they made him. That to me is 100% on Trump and not a rule of law problem.

Again, all Trump has to do is release the warrant to clear things up but the warrant obviously looks bad for him so he wont' do it. Maybe his bus stop lawyer will make a mistake like Alex Jones' lawyer and we'll all get to see it.

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Did Hillary "comply" before or after she deleted a bunch of evidence? She didn't comply with the congressional subpoena - that's for sure.

And executing third party search warrants is not even in the same universe as executing a warrant on a current/former president and/or current/former presidential candidate. There is a reason HRC was not served with a warrant.

Trump should release the warrant. But I don't think the warrant includes the underlying declarations which is what we really need to see (not sure)? Does he have those? I think they just serve the warrant and not the underlying docs - but I could be wrong. Anyone have a link showing Trump has the sworn declarations in support of the warrant?

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Look who's unsurprisingly shown up to white knight for Trump.

Hillary Clinton provided over 55,000 pages of emails to the FBI. Her IT guy deleted 30,000 emails which her outside law firm determined were personal in nature. The FBI didn't need to execute a search warrant on her home (or office) because she complied with their request. They executed a warrant on a third party whose computer had some of her emails.

Contrast that with Trump. He illegally kept dozens of boxes of government documents. For more than a year and a half he chose not to return some number of those documents, including purportedly classified ones. The FBI paid him a visit in June and laid eyes on the documents. Trump or his team could easily have given the documents back to the government, but chose not to comply. And let's not pretend that this was a raid on his underwear drawer - they went to his office location where he illegally maintained classified government records which could pose a national security risk. Hillary's deleted emails were not that. As it turns out, Hillary's undeleted emails were not that either, but it was still enough to give 99% of GOPers the vapors and a near-lethal case of pearl clutching.

So Trump was given every opportunity to comply by returning all of these records and stonewalled for more than a year and a half. This is night and day from the Clinton controversy. Would you suggest that the government just accept that Trump can keep all of these illegally obtained records for as long as he wants to in an unsecure public location?

This is the part where you acknowledge that either you don't care about the national security implications of butter emails, or you think Trump's retention and insecure maintenance of classified materials is problematic. You don't get to have it both ways. The presidential records act is very clear and the fact that 12 boxes of documents were removed from MAL by the FBI is quite telling. It's telling us that GOPers like you never actually cared about the national security implications of Clinton's emails and that when push comes to shove even though you pretend to be a critic of Trump, you still ride or die with him.

I'm glad that we can all stop pretending like your criticism of Trump has been genuine. You're sticking with him longer than Rupert Murdoch.

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First of all, you're ignoring my separate post where I said "I hope they have the goods here." I'd be very happy if this discredits Trump and cripples any attempt/hope he has to run again. But this is very likely going to have the opposite effect if the basis for the warrant was thin. I actually think the dems are goading Trump into running again and hope he'll declare before the midterms.

Your defense of HRC is hilarious. Her IT guy deleted the emails at HRC's direction (and Sheryl Mills). You conveniently ignore that the remaining emails undisputedly contained classified information that she illegally possessed on a personal (and unsecure) server, all in violation of security protocols (pretty much what Trump may have done here). HRC mishandled HIGHLY classified info during the entire tenure as SOS and then for at least 2 years thereafter. Not just 15 boxes.

And the final irony is that HRC deleted the emails in response to the State Department's request for public records - years after HRC left office. She literally misappropriate State Department records for years and never disclosed that. Doesn't excuse what Trump may be doing with his records, but it is orders of magnitude worse. If Trump were HRC, he'd have shredded those boxes by now.

Trump and his team reportedly dispute that the records are public records and/or classified. I have literally no idea if they're correct - either do you. There's a process for determining that - its called a subpoena and then going to court, with the records appropriately safeguarded in the meantime. HRC's lawyer kept the disputed files while the issues were being sorted out. A warrant in this situation is unprecedented. Maybe it was justified - maybe Trump was threatening to destroy the files or wasn't safeguarding them?

That would possibly justify a warrant. But we don't know. And CNN's reporting doesn't support that - they indicate that Trump was cooperating and negotiating with the FBI - just like you claim HRC was.

"In early June, a handful of investigators made a rare visit to the property seeking more information about potentially classified material from Trump's time in the White House that had been taken to Florida. The four investigators, including Jay Bratt, the chief of the counterintelligence and export control section at the Justice Department, sat down with two of Trump's attorneys, Bobb and Evan Corcoran, according to a source present for the meeting.


At the beginning of the meeting, Trump stopped by and greeted the investigators near a dining room. After he left, without answering any questions, the investigators asked the attorneys if they could see where Trump was storing the documents. The attorneys took the investigators to the basement room where the boxes of materials were being stored, and the investigators looked around the room before eventually leaving, according to the source.

A second source said that Trump came in to say hi and made small talk but left while the attorneys spoke with investigators. The source said some of the documents shown to investigators had top secret markings.
Five days later, on June 8, Trump's attorneys received a letter from investigators asking them to further secure the room where the documents were stored. Aides subsequently added a padlock to the room.
In April and May, aides to Trump at Mar-a-Lago were interviewed by the FBI as part of the probe into the handling of presidential records, according to a source familiar with the matter."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/politics/mar-a-lago-search-warrant-fbi-donald-trump/index.html

Maybe something happened since then or perhaps CNN is mistaken (wouldn't be the first time). If not, then this is looking bad and setting a really bad precedent. As 93 says, if there isn't an arrest, this is going to backfire.

And for the record, I'd like all parties who misappropriate or leak classified info to be prosecuted and lose their security clearance. That includes Trump, HRC, Comey, and McCabe. The problem is the DOJ and FBI hasn't done that. Even Petraeus was let off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

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Congratulations, you are doing a better job defending Trump than his bottom feeder lawyer will. With enemies like you, Trump doesn't need any friends.

The FBI found like 3 classified emails among the 30,000+ that Clinton turned over. This wasn't a real national security issue. It's possible, though unlikely, that Trump similarly has unimportant classified info stored in his office basement. Trump has had 20 months to return all of the documents he retained in order to comply with the presidential records act but he's chosen not to do so. And you are defending his non-compliance while pretending to criticize him.

And you still manage to think you are fooling anyone with your pearl clutching. Nice try.