I know some hate the political threads, but I love the diversity of opinion I find here at BI, so I will ask. What do you think is the appropriate response to Russia's repeated attacks on Western democracies? This really seems like a threat to the very core of our societies and it does not seem like they plan to stop unless we make them. How do we make them?

This is not a partisan question. Or, is it?

Go!Bears;842838021 said:

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This is not a partisan question. Or, is it?

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There is no valid reason that this should be a partisan issue, and yet...




:facepalm


The only explanation for this is that a particular group of people are being influenced in their opinions by the narcissist-in-chief, which tells you a lot of about this particular group of people, like the probability of having a reasonable conversation with members of this group.

Russian business interests need to be cut off from western markets until Vlad is gone, which could be a long time. The oligarchs can't invest here or in Western Europe. We'll likely have to wait for an admin change to make that a reality in the U. S.

Put everything known or suspected about Vlad in the public domain. Over time, make him like Stalin rather than a 'great leader of Russia''. Who has he ordered murdered? The list should be long.

Support a moon shot type program to make Western Europe energy independent of Russia, including wind, solar and nukes. Reduce Vlad's open markets to the Turkmenistans.

That's a decent start for a Sunday morning.

For starters, we need to go back to where every US voting machine has the ability to do a physical recount of the vote. After the Florida hanging chad vote diabolical, many districts now use digital only machines with no ability to do a physical recount. Second, I think our system could be improved if we fairly dealt with the gerrymandering issue. If those in power can draw the lines to their benefit, then you present a very real possibility of somebody assuming power based on a minority or even an election influenced vote. Although I see the basis for the original use/design of the electoral college, I think in practice it does entirely work. I'd be supportive of not eliminating it, but fixing it. Have a standard process for which electoral college votes are made and do away with prohibitions that an electoral college voter can't go against the people if there are extenuating circumstances - like say proof of a foreign influence in the vote. This past election served as a decent example of how the electoral college didn't really work (not because it went against the popular vote), but because there was a real possibility that the election was influenced by a foreign actor.

A more difficult challenge has to do with fake news and propaganda issue. As long as you believe in the first amendment, I don't see how you address this issue outside of putting political pressure and economic sanctions on a foreign actor to extract a cost for doing these activities. I think there is a certain level of psychology involved with these things. If you are on the "winning side" of an election (let's say a Trump supporter or more generally a republican) there is a tendency to be complacent or even reactionary in denouncing your own win. This is all to say that I don't hold much hope for a well-informed populace every being a stop gap for preventing the influence of bad information. Our entire process is predicated on people weighing their options based on the credibility and accuracy of their information. The Internet is a double-edged sword in this case. It offers a huge opportunity to engage people with information, but also to engage with misinformation.

Polodad;842838030 said:

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make Western Europe energy independent of Russia

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Very much this.

And not just Russia, the faster we can make the fossil fuel markets collapse (I eagerly await the day the US no longer imports oil—will I still be alive?), the sooner the US can forget about the middle east and wasting so much money and so many lives ensuring our access to oil. Russia is such a strange country, they have a thriving space program, they build airliners and fighter jets, and yet their economy is critically dependent on fossil fuel exports (68% of exports). That's a 3rd-World problem that's gonna bite them in the ass eventually.

Make Election Day a national holiday.

Go!Bears;842838021 said:

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I know some hate the political threads, but I love the diversity of opinion I find here at BI, so I will ask. What do you think is the appropriate response to Russia's repeated attacks on Western democracies? This really seems like a threat to the very core of our societies and it does not seem like they plan to stop unless we make them. How do we make them?

This is not a partisan question. Or, is it?

---

Face the "Pute" with firmness at every crossroads unlike the previous admin. We do guns and butter much better than he can or will.

Is the objective in Washington to fan a new cold war $$$$$$$$$$$ ? US investment (capitalism) has been in Russia since ~1870 and we never left. We built it and we own it. Putin is the most recent proxy.

I agree with odonto's suggestion coupled with a cooperative effort by the Western European countries (some are getting nat gas from Putie so that might be an issue) and other friendly countries around the globe.

Russia is a puny kleptocracy that is no threat to the US- economically, militarily or even with a credible competing ideology. NATO is more than sufficient to deal with Russia- the rest is just more fear mongering and increased military budgets. Cyber meddling be it Russia, China or whoever can be dealt with by the usual means

Go!Bears;842838021 said:

---

I know some hate the political threads, but I love the diversity of opinion I find here at BI, so I will ask. What do you think is the appropriate response to Russia's repeated attacks on Western democracies? This really seems like a threat to the very core of our societies and it does not seem like they plan to stop unless we make them. How do we make them?

This is not a partisan question. Or, is it?

---

Having a Lithuanian grandmother and a White Russian grandfather, I'll give it to you from a Russian perspective.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, the United States had a historic opportunity to forge a relationship with Russia that could benefit both countries. Instead, the U.S. committed a series of missteps that were detrimental to the interests of Russia. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton all displayed a mind boggling ignorance of the Russian people, their culture, their history and their place in the world. You can only poke a bear with a stick so many times before you get mauled.

For a good read on all of the mistakes the U.S. has made and the the repercussions of ignorance, here is a good read from a 2014 article in The Atlantic :
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-west-united-states-past-future-conflict/380533/

I've also recommended several times on this site watching the Paul McCartney Live In Red Square concert video. It's a music concert, but it's also a documentary about how the concert came to be and it offers an informative insight into the mind of Vladimir Putin.

There's footage of Putin attending this concert. Hey Jude :
[video=youtube;0pD37NcUxmw][/video]

BGolden;842838063 said:

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Having a Lithuanian grandmother and a White Russian grandfather, I'll give it to you from a Russian perspective.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, the United States had a historic opportunity to forge a relationship with Russia that could benefit both countries. Instead, the U.S. committed a series of missteps that were detrimental to the interests of Russia. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton all displayed a mind boggling ignorance of the Russian people, their culture, their history and their place in the world. You can only poke a bear with a stick so many times before you get mauled.

For a good read on all of the mistakes the U.S. has made and the the repercussions of ignorance, here is a good read from a 2014 article in The Atlantic :
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-west-united-states-past-future-conflict/380533/

I've also recommended several times on this site watching the Paul McCartney Live In Red Square concert video. It's a music concert, but it's also a documentary about how the concert came to be and it offers an informative insight into the mind of Vladimir Putin.

There's footage of Putin attending this concert. Hey Jude :
[video=youtube;0pD37NcUxmw][/video]

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Absolutely. How different it would be if we had accepted Putin's overtures to the West and NATO in his early days instead of extending our military and political power to their doorsteps

Good post BGolden.

GB54;842838066 said:

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Absolutely. How different it would be if we had accepted Putin's overtures to the West and NATO in his early days instead of extending our military and political power to their doorsteps

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And actively undermining the budding democracies in countries like Georgia and Ukraine.

The US didn't just interfere in Russian elections, people like Summers in the 90s and Nuland today carved up the country and crippled the Russians post-communist economic stability. Putin is a direct consequence of this policy.

https://www.thenation.com/article/harvard-boys-do-russia/

BGolden;842838063 said:

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Having a Lithuanian grandmother and a White Russian grandfather, I'll give it to you from a Russian perspective.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, the United States had a historic opportunity to forge a relationship with Russia that could benefit both countries. Instead, the U.S. committed a series of missteps that were detrimental to the interests of Russia. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton all displayed a mind boggling ignorance of the Russian people, their culture, their history and their place in the world. You can only poke a bear with a stick so many times before you get mauled.

For a good read on all of the mistakes the U.S. has made and the the repercussions of ignorance, here is a good read from a 2014 article in The Atlantic :
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-west-united-states-past-future-conflict/380533/

I've also recommended several times on this site watching the Paul McCartney Live In Red Square concert video. It's a music concert, but it's also a documentary about how the concert came to be and it offers an informative insight into the mind of Vladimir Putin.

There's footage of Putin attending this concert. Hey Jude :
[video=youtube;0pD37NcUxmw][/video]

---

Thanks for sharing

Who benefited from the US stance vs Russia over the last 20yrs?

http://www.dw.com/en/russia-turkey-sign-gas-pipeline-deal-talk-syria/a-36010620

This is what it's about. Russia absolutely does not want Europe to have another option to getting oil. It's why they are in Syria.

MinotStateBeav;842838090 said:

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http://www.dw.com/en/russia-turkey-sign-gas-pipeline-deal-talk-syria/a-36010620

This is what it's about. Russia absolutely does not want Europe to have another option to getting oil. It's why they are in Syria.

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+1

And that is one reason the Ukraine is important. Another is the Russian base at Sevastopol on the Crimean Peninsula, their fleet's Black Sea access to the Mediterranean.

Russia is securing it's naval port at Tartus, Syria which is also the end of the new Iran-Iraq-Syria natural gas "Friendship Pipeline".

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/world/middleeast/russia-turkey-syria-deal.html?_r=0

Chill out, y'all! Le Pen just got crushed.

Any investors who actually helped the Trump family build a string of golf courses during the long recession should be considered, by pretty much everybody, as Great.

MinotStateBeav;842838090 said:

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http://www.dw.com/en/russia-turkey-sign-gas-pipeline-deal-talk-syria/a-36010620

This is what it's about. Russia absolutely does not want Europe to have another option to getting oil. It's why they are in Syria.

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Well, we can export to Europe with all our "potential."

Lots of good ideas in this thread before the friends of Russia started up.

America and Western Democracies are under attack. Before we respond to Russia we have to get our house in order. We need full impartial investigations into what happened here in America with regards to Russia. People need to be prosecuted and put in jail. I suspect some people currently in positions of power will need to be imprisoned. There will be a lot of opposition to such a move but traitors need to be cleared out. Media that aided and abetted traitors needs to be vilified. Politicians choosing party over country need to have their careers destroyed in public disgrace. I look forward to hearing from Sally Yates in her Congressional testimony tomorrow.

Once we have leadership in place that is in a position to deal with Putin rather than be cowed by him we need to stand firm with our allies in a second cold war. Sanctions, economic aid to allies, strengthening alliances, growing guns and butter so we grow richer while they grow poorer in their corruption. We need a 6th branch of the military that is solely dedicated to technology and foreign threats. We need to invest in that concept militarily and make any foreign hostile server immediately exposed and potentially made useless. Foreign bots get destroyed. Bring your operations to America in the service of a foreign power and subject yourself to arrest.

dajo9;842838113 said:

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Lots of good ideas in this thread before the friends of Russia started up.

America and Western Democracies are under attack. Before we respond to Russia we have to get our house in order. We need full impartial investigations into what happened here in America with regards to Russia. People need to be prosecuted and put in jail. I suspect some people currently in positions of power will need to be imprisoned. There will be a lot of opposition to such a move but traitors need to be cleared out. Media that aided and abetted traitors needs to be vilified. Politicians choosing party over country need to have their careers destroyed in public disgrace. I look forward to hearing from Sally Yates in her Congressional testimony tomorrow.

Once we have leadership in place that is in a position to deal with Putin rather than be cowed by him we need to stand firm with our allies in a second cold war. Sanctions, economic aid to allies, strengthening alliances, growing guns and butter so we grow richer while they grow poorer in their corruption. We need a 6th branch of the military that is solely dedicated to technology and foreign threats. We need to invest in that concept militarily and make any foreign hostile server immediately exposed and potentially made useless. Foreign bots get destroyed. Bring your operations to America in the service of a foreign power and subject yourself to arrest.

---

You've got it! +1000

When I was a teen in the late 80's I would read about how soviet soldiers were getting slaughtered by Afghani rebels and feel enormous pride. I don't know why I did, I just did. I hated the Russians. Looking back, I think it was just good ol' anti commie indoctrination working well. Now I could care less. They've never done anything to me and I doubt they ever will. What's their GDP? 1 trillion dollars? Yeah, Apple should be catching them in a few years. They are no threat. I'm mortally at higher risk of dying from an American who is texting/driving or some p!ssed off drunk unemployed ignoramus with a crowbar who confuses me for some other immigrant he wants to harm. All nation states need bogeymen to keep the populace at attention and quelled. Could I be naive? It's possible. I guess my life could be better if I had a heightened amount of indefinite anxiousness.

Putin is such a troll.

A thorn in everybody's side that will go down swingin' if you monetarily kneecap him.

Now he wants to be buddy-buddy with NK.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/07/as-china-north-korea-ties-cool-russia-looks-to-benefit.html

Cal88;842838075 said:

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Good post BGolden.



And actively undermining the budding democracies in countries like Georgia and Ukraine.

The US didn't just interfere in Russian elections, people like Summers in the 90s and Nuland today carved up the country and crippled the Russians post-communist economic stability. Putin is a direct consequence of this policy.

https://www.thenation.com/article/harvard-boys-do-russia/

---

Aaaaand this kind of hyperbolic BS is one of the main reasons I got out of the field twenty years ago - all the sniping and Western infighting about Who Lost Russia. With all due respect to the Chicago Boys (Sachs and Co. were from Harvard but their economics background was straight out of the Chicago School) and their tone-deaf advice to the Russians, Russia lost Russia. You want to read a better account of What Went Wrong, read another GWU prof, Peter Reddaway's The Tragedy of Russia's Reforms: Market Bolshevism Against Democracy. While you're at it, take a look at Joel Hellman's Winners Take All: The Politics of Partial Reform in Postcommunist Transitions.

As for NATO expansion, we were initially reluctant to do it precisely because of the assurances we'd given the Russians, but it became clear that Germany wanted buffer states to its east and would take the lead in pushing through expansion if we did not, and faster than we (and obviously the Russians) would have liked. We wanted to make sure that NATO would continue to be the military organization upon which Europeans relied, and not a nascent WEU force, of which the US was not a member, so we got on board with expansion and tried to keep the process slower and more measured. Keep in mind that this was a time when many wondered whether NATO was still needed at all; expansion (and then Out of Area or Out of Business) kept it relevant.

(I was a research analyst/project coordinator for the Russian Studies Department at CSIS 1993-1995, so it was my job to follow all this)

Sestanovich's Geotherapy: Russia's Neuroses, and Ours is also a good read from 1996. I'm biased, because he's a former boss.

Nobody needs to worry about the Russians - after all, didn't our sainted President Obama ridicule his unworthy opponent in the 2012 election by noting that the Cold War wants it foreign policy back when Romney emphasized what a threat Russia was? It was almost like the famous NY Times writer Walter Durranty who wrote in the 1930s how great the USSR was? And the muckraker who declared after visiting the USSR early in its existence "I have seen the future and it works."
How could Obama, the NY Times and a famous critic of America all be wrong? It's ridiculous to even think that is a possibility.
Think about it historically - when has a great country with a large and well-educated population which has recently suffered a humiliating defeat and collapse ever made a comeback when a very smart homicidal maniac who kills his opponents was at the helm? It is simply absurd to even believe it could ever happen.

Buy low sell high. Would this be a good time to re balance one's portfolio into emerging markets that include Venezuela, Russia, and Greece? Of course 99.9% of sane investors would say no, but 30 years from now(if that is your horizon), it might look like a good bet.

CAL6371;842838153 said:

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Nobody needs to worry about the Russians - after all, didn't our sainted President Obama ridicule his unworthy opponent in the 2012 election by noting that the Cold War wants it foreign policy back when Romney emphasized what a threat Russia was? It was almost like the famous NY Times writer Walter Durranty who wrote in the 1930s how great the USSR was? And the muckraker who declared after visiting the USSR early in its existence "I have seen the future and it works."
How could Obama, the NY Times and a famous critic of America all be wrong? It's ridiculous to even think that is a possibility.

---

I guess they didn't foresee the next President bringing Russian assets into the White House

I agree - Trump is a fool who has no sense of what he doesn't know - like anything about history. Thank God his advisers got him to fire General Kelly - that guy was a liar and a menace.
Who would think that any American would vote for someone who would allow in their administration a person who had a long record of service in America if that person had taken (or had their Foundation take) money from a foreign government whose values were antithetical to America? I mean other than the Clintons?

CAL6371;842838153 said:

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Nobody needs to worry about the Russians - after all, didn't our sainted President Obama ridicule his unworthy opponent in the 2012 election by noting that the Cold War wants it foreign policy back when Romney emphasized what a threat Russia was? It was almost like the famous NY Times writer Walter Durranty who wrote in the 1930s how great the USSR was? And the muckraker who declared after visiting the USSR early in its existence "I have seen the future and it works."
How could Obama, the NY Times and a famous critic of America all be wrong? It's ridiculous to even think that is a possibility.

---

As an Obama supporter, I acknowledge he did say that. And it was funny then. Are they a threat now? Popular opinion says yes. What does this mean? How are they a threat to us? Will the Russian eventually...

1. Nuke us?
2. Redeploy Cuba as a wedge to convert America into communists.(are the Russians and the Chinese still communists?)?
3. will hack 2020 to get Bernie elected(who is actually a communist mole)?
4. Invade us?
5. Sell us tainted oil?
6. Invade Eastern Europe?
7. Sell us more Russian Brides who are actually KGB agents?
8. Dig up Chechnyan corpses and reincarnate them as immortal ISIS multisuicide bombers?
9. Continue to supply afghan resistant fighters to combat US forces until we depart in which the afghan will ironically turn those guns around against the Russians when the Russians decide to go after afghanistan's mineral fortune.
10. (fill in the blank where Putin's action leads to the eventuality our grandchildren speaking Russian)

BTW The American's on FX is awesome.

CAL6371;842838160 said:

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I agree - Trump is a fool who has no sense of what he doesn't know - like anything about history. Thank God his advisers got him to fire General Kelly - that guy was a liar and a menace.

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Making fun of early dementia is unkind:

burritos;842838161 said:

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As an Obama supporter, I acknowledge he did say that. And it was funny then. Are they a threat now? Popular opinion says yes. What does this mean? How are they a threat to us? Will the Russian eventually...

1. Nuke us?
2. Redeploy Cuba as a wedge to convert America into communists.(are the Russians and the Chinese still communists?)?
3. will hack 2020 to get Bernie elected(who is actually a communist mole)?
4. Invade us?
5. Sell us tainted oil?
6. Invade Eastern Europe?
7. Sell us more Russian Brides who are actually KGB agents?
8. Dig up Chechnyan corpses and reincarnate them as immortal ISIS multisuicide bombers?
9. Continue to supply afghan resistant fighters to combat US forces until we depart in which the afghan will ironically turn those guns around against the Russians when the Russians decide to go after afghanistan's mineral fortune.
10. (fill in the blank where Putin's action leads to the eventuality our grandchildren speaking Russian)

BTW The American's on FX is awesome.

---

11. Use covert technological means and the vast, corrupt wealth of their oligarchs to destabilize western democracies, replacing our allies with crony, capitalist, quasi-dictatorships, including potentially America, which will create a global environment where Russian oligarchs can continue to enrich themselves while Russia overruns it's neighbors and expands to its old Soviet borders and maybe beyond.

Was a time, not long ago when the US stood up for democratic allies. Maybe that is no longer an interest of the American people. SAD!

I look at Putin as a role model for Trump.

Recently there have been numerous reports that as President of Russia he has become the richest man in the world.
Even conservative estimates place his net worth at several times Trump's self proclaimed new worth.
In 15 years he has amassed more than ZTump did in 50 years.[COLOR="#FF0000"] No wonder Trump wanted to be President.[/COLOR]

Compare Trump's palaces like Mar Lago (and Bill Gates' for that matter) to Putin's
Putin certainly has the visible trappings of wealth. Among his alleged holdings is a palace on the Black Sea with a reported price tag of $1 billion.
And if the rumors are true, the Black Sea manse isn't Putin's only palace. He enjoys 20 palaces, four yachts, 58 aircraft, and a collection of watches
worth 400,000, according to a scandalous dossier drawn up by a former deputy prime minister in 2012.

Trump can only dream of equally his financial success as President.

Papitobear;842838128 said:

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Putin is such a troll.

A thorn in everybody's side that will go down swingin' if you monetarily kneecap him.

Now he wants to be buddy-buddy with NK.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/07/as-china-north-korea-ties-cool-russia-looks-to-benefit.html

---

Burritos - #6 and 9 are already happening and the latter part of #9 may happen. The Russians under Putin are very anti-Western and when such a country has the largest nuclear weapon inventory in the world, I do regard it as a major problem.
Re #2 - since Castro wanted the Russians to nuke us during Cuban missile crisis, I find it amusing that so many leftists still praise him and his brother, but some fanatics always love mass murderers who hate the country the fanatics live in (German-American Bund, Mao followers in Berkeley in the 60s, Hollywood communists in the 50s etc). Some people love a mass murderer in spite of what he has done. I remember getting in a cab in Moscow in 1979 and noting that the driver had a card celebrating the 100th anniversary of Stalin's birth hanging from his rear view mirror.
BTW I recently read Jeff Greenfield's book on the 2000 election (Oh Waiter - One Order of Crow). I loved it - very insightful and very funny.
On page 228, he notes "I don't live in Washington, because I believe I stay more in touch with typical, hardworking Americans by living amongst them in the heartland of the nation - the Upper West Side of Manhattan. (A typical political view in my neighborhood: Exhume the Rosenbergs and give them a federal pension.)"
You can tell he once wrote for the National Lampoon.

burritos;842838161 said:

---

As an Obama supporter, I acknowledge he did say that. And it was funny then. Are they a threat now? Popular opinion says yes. What does this mean? How are they a threat to us? Will the Russian eventually...

1. Nuke us?
2. Redeploy Cuba as a wedge to convert America into communists.(are the Russians and the Chinese still communists?)?
3. will hack 2020 to get Bernie elected(who is actually a communist mole)?
4. Invade us?
5. Sell us tainted oil?
6. Invade Eastern Europe?
7. Sell us more Russian Brides who are actually KGB agents?
8. Dig up Chechnyan corpses and reincarnate them as immortal ISIS multisuicide bombers?
9. Continue to supply afghan resistant fighters to combat US forces until we depart in which the afghan will ironically turn those guns around against the Russians when the Russians decide to go after afghanistan's mineral fortune.
10. (fill in the blank where Putin's action leads to the eventuality our grandchildren speaking Russian)

BTW The American's on FX is awesome.

---

Syria and North Korea are real, and Russia is undermining US goals in those regions.

dajo9;842838165 said:

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11. Use covert technological means and the vast, corrupt wealth of their oligarchs to destabilize western democracies, replacing our allies with crony, capitalist, quasi-dictatorships, including potentially America, which will create a global environment where Russian oligarchs can continue to enrich themselves while Russia overruns it's neighbors and expands to its old Soviet borders and maybe beyond.

Was a time, not long ago when the US stood up for democratic allies. Maybe that is no longer an interest of the American people. SAD!

---

I would argue that crony capitalism/oligarchism as a consequence of Putin pales in comparison compared to what is committed by Goldman Sachs alone, much less the Banks in Manhattan collectively. If Putin were born in the 50's in the U.S. he probably would be CEO of some bank.

Now I don't blame these financiers for doing what they are doing. Legions of people, like myself, want to save/preserve/growth wealth(which is not morally wrong is it?). Unless you are going to stash your money in the mattress we all hand our earnings(by the trillions) in some form or another to these middle men market makers and their institutions. Putin is nothing compared to the power of these anonymous kings and kingmakers.